Author Topic: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed  (Read 37532 times)

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2007, 03:01:44 pm »
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.


ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.

Offline The Evasive 1

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2007, 03:48:12 pm »
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.


ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.

Icon was more than just an alien who fell to earth and took the shape of a black man. The point was to see the dynamic of a "black" alien (Icon) and what he would go through as to a "white" alien (Superman) experienced. For instance Superman shows up to save the day and everybody cheers and applauds. When Icon first starting showing up the police tried to shoot him and Rocket. He continuously had problems that were related to the black experience in which a white hero like Superman never would. That was tone point of the book aside from showing the maturity of Rocket. Another idea of the book was to have a different individual assume the role of Icon as Icon was supposed to be an ideal not specifically a person. However, when the story arc occurred where Icon was going to leave earth, apparently there was fan backlash and the writers at Milestone changed their minds and kept him the story. Good thing to because the guy who took over the mantle was a purposefully silly characterization of Luke Cage. When Icon came back to Earth he had some new gadgets and supposedly increased power. Unfortunately, you never really get to see how this pans out since the comic was canceled not long after when Milestone folded.

I also felt Icon showed the two polar opposites of how black Americans feel about our situation in the world. For example, Icon was more of a black conservative who believed that black people needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop blaming the "man" for all it's ills. Rocket on the other hand was supposedly from the 'hood and was more liberal about her views based on how and where she lived. In this relationship both partners learned to be more sympathetic to the others point of view.


Offline Wise Son

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2007, 12:56:20 am »
never even knew it existed.

so...who won?

Man, I was trying to sort out some scans, but stuff just wasn't working. I'll summarise for now:
A creditable draw on both sides.
Superman has more raw power and speed, but Icon is a cleverer fighter who adapts his tactics. Their first punch is nearly a double-KO, adn causes a massive explosion, and both remain conscious, but dazed. They fight on, until Rift, the god-like being responsible for the whole crossover, calls an end to it, saying that neither of them is going to give in, or lose.

Think you can get it off Mile High comics. I rate it as one of the best crossovers ever.

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Offline Wise Son

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2007, 01:05:51 am »
ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.
Quite right on Rocket, the book is really about her, and she's a fantastic character. Holocaust was pretty much everyone's nemesis, wasn't he? He ended up with beef with the Blood Syndicate, Icon, Static, Hardware and the Shadow Cabinet (and the police, the mayor, etc.).

Icon and Static both could have done with more recurring vilains, but they did have some good ones. For Icon, the best had to be Oblivion - the fight between him and Rocket, Buck and Icon lasted about 3 issues.

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Offline Wise Son

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2007, 01:31:31 am »
Icon was more than just an alien who fell to earth and took the shape of a black man. The point was to see the dynamic of a "black" alien (Icon) and what he would go through as to a "white" alien (Superman) experienced. For instance Superman shows up to save the day and everybody cheers and applauds. When Icon first starting showing up the police tried to shoot him and Rocket. He continuously had problems that were related to the black experience in which a white hero like Superman never would. That was tone point of the book aside from showing the maturity of Rocket. Another idea of the book was to have a different individual assume the role of Icon as Icon was supposed to be an ideal not specifically a person. However, when the story arc occurred where Icon was going to leave earth, apparently there was fan backlash and the writers at Milestone changed their minds and kept him the story. Good thing to because the guy who took over the mantle was a purposefully silly characterization of Luke Cage. When Icon came back to Earth he had some new gadgets and supposedly increased power. Unfortunately, you never really get to see how this pans out since the comic was canceled not long after when Milestone folded.

I also felt Icon showed the two polar opposites of how black Americans feel about our situation in the world. For example, Icon was more of a black conservative who believed that black people needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop blaming the "man" for all it's ills. Rocket on the other hand was supposedly from the 'hood and was more liberal about her views based on how and where she lived. In this relationship both partners learned to be more sympathetic to the others point of view.
Great summary, although I remember fan reaction to Icon in space being far more positive, with the Earth being put on trial and Icon defending it, adn Rocket acting as a witness... Great stories. And please, don't tell me you didn't love Buck Wild, Mercenary Man's turn as Icon ("The White Man's gravity cannot hold me down! Kwaanzaa!"). ;D Buck was brilliant every time he appeared, right up until the end. :'( But yeah, the return of the real Icon was brilliant.

Also, like you said, one of the great things about Icon adn Rocket was that they demonstrated just how African-American culture is not monolithic, and has plenty of variety and differences.

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Offline The Evasive 1

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #80 on: January 18, 2007, 10:57:34 am »
Great summary, although I remember fan reaction to Icon in space being far more positive, with the Earth being put on trial and Icon defending it, adn Rocket acting as a witness... Great stories. And please, don't tell me you didn't love Buck Wild, Mercenary Man's turn as Icon ("The White Man's gravity cannot hold me down! Kwaanzaa!"). ;D Buck was brilliant every time he appeared, right up until the end. :'( But yeah, the return of the real Icon was brilliant.

Also, like you said, one of the great things about Icon adn Rocket was that they demonstrated just how African-American culture is not monolithic, and has plenty of variety and differences.

Yeah, I don't think fans had a problem with the whole trial and fight in space either. What drew fan complaints, according to the guys at Milestone, was that after that particular arc, Augustus Freeman IV was not going to return to Earth and was going to leave the title altogether. the writers then changed their mind which all in all I think was a good idea. However, I understand what they were trying to do in the that "Icon" was not suppose to be anyone person permanently. It is an ideal or symbol to live up to. I would guess that Rocket would eventually have become Icon as the series progressed if the writers had continued with their original plan..

Offline Francisco

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #81 on: January 18, 2007, 12:23:09 pm »
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.


ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.

Icon was more than just an alien who fell to earth and took the shape of a black man. The point was to see the dynamic of a "black" alien (Icon) and what he would go through as to a "white" alien (Superman) experienced. For instance Superman shows up to save the day and everybody cheers and applauds. When Icon first starting showing up the police tried to shoot him and Rocket. He continuously had problems that were related to the black experience in which a white hero like Superman never would. That was tone point of the book aside from showing the maturity of Rocket. Another idea of the book was to have a different individual assume the role of Icon as Icon was supposed to be an ideal not specifically a person. However, when the story arc occurred where Icon was going to leave earth, apparently there was fan backlash and the writers at Milestone changed their minds and kept him the story. Good thing to because the guy who took over the mantle was a purposefully silly characterization of Luke Cage. When Icon came back to Earth he had some new gadgets and supposedly increased power. Unfortunately, you never really get to see how this pans out since the comic was canceled not long after when Milestone folded.

I also felt Icon showed the two polar opposites of how black Americans feel about our situation in the world. For example, Icon was more of a black conservative who believed that black people needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop blaming the "man" for all it's ills. Rocket on the other hand was supposedly from the 'hood and was more liberal about her views based on how and where she lived. In this relationship both partners learned to be more sympathetic to the others point of view.



 
I don't know man. Let's put it this way. If a black flying guy started saving people from fires and earthquakes and stuff like that I think it would be farfetched to have Cops aiming guns at him just because he's black. I know that political commentary is good and all but, I just want brainless action with huge explosions, alien invasions, demons, vampires, evil geniuses and stuff like that. They should have kept the politics out of the equation and have ICON to be the Black Superman who fights evil. Instead of century old alien in the guise of a middle-aged black millionaire, they should have made him a late 20's lawyer, scientist or police officer who was exposed to some sort of chemical or magical element, which granted him powers beyond those of mere mortals. He should have had a girlfriend and several love interests. If he was to face racism and discrimination he should face them as a civilian not as a Superhero. I mean, who is more likely to fell victim of racism Oprah or us. At least she has her millions and lawyers to fall back on. So should've been with Icon. On his identity as Icon he would be revered by the world but when he's back on his identity as regular guy then he would be faced with the things regular black people (and people in general) had to deal with in their daily activities.
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Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #82 on: January 18, 2007, 01:23:22 pm »
Did you ever read Icon, Cisco?  I remember it being a lot of fun.  The political stuff is there but not in the foreground.  I really like the origin story and him being older and wiser.  Just curious whether you were reacting to the description here or the book itself.  It's cool either way.
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Offline The Evasive 1

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2007, 01:53:40 pm »
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.


ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.

Icon was more than just an alien who fell to earth and took the shape of a black man. The point was to see the dynamic of a "black" alien (Icon) and what he would go through as to a "white" alien (Superman) experienced. For instance Superman shows up to save the day and everybody cheers and applauds. When Icon first starting showing up the police tried to shoot him and Rocket. He continuously had problems that were related to the black experience in which a white hero like Superman never would. That was tone point of the book aside from showing the maturity of Rocket. Another idea of the book was to have a different individual assume the role of Icon as Icon was supposed to be an ideal not specifically a person. However, when the story arc occurred where Icon was going to leave earth, apparently there was fan backlash and the writers at Milestone changed their minds and kept him the story. Good thing to because the guy who took over the mantle was a purposefully silly characterization of Luke Cage. When Icon came back to Earth he had some new gadgets and supposedly increased power. Unfortunately, you never really get to see how this pans out since the comic was canceled not long after when Milestone folded.

I also felt Icon showed the two polar opposites of how black Americans feel about our situation in the world. For example, Icon was more of a black conservative who believed that black people needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop blaming the "man" for all it's ills. Rocket on the other hand was supposedly from the 'hood and was more liberal about her views based on how and where she lived. In this relationship both partners learned to be more sympathetic to the others point of view.



 
I don't know man. Let's put it this way. If a black flying guy started saving people from fires and earthquakes and stuff like that I think it would be farfetched to have Cops aiming guns at him just because he's black. I know that political commentary is good and all but, I just want brainless action with huge explosions, alien invasions, demons, vampires, evil geniuses and stuff like that. They should have kept the politics out of the equation and have ICON to be the Black Superman who fights evil. Instead of century old alien in the guise of a middle-aged black millionaire, they should have made him a late 20's lawyer, scientist or police officer who was exposed to some sort of chemical or magical element, which granted him powers beyond those of mere mortals. He should have had a girlfriend and several love interests. If he was to face racism and discrimination he should face them as a civilian not as a Superhero. I mean, who is more likely to fell victim of racism Oprah or us. At least she has her millions and lawyers to fall back on. So should've been with Icon. On his identity as Icon he would be revered by the world but when he's back on his identity as regular guy then he would be faced with the things regular black people (and people in general) had to deal with in their daily activities.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic with you comments or if your serious. If your serious then my response is to ask if you read a significant number of issues from the series? Alot of the things you say you wanted to see actually happened in that series so some of your comments are confusing. The police did not always point their guns at Icon, but his was initially what happened when he showed up on the scene depending on the circumstances. Eventually this didn't happen and he even worked with the city officials from time to time, but he still faced other problems that occurred due to him being black that Superman supposedly didn't. Thus it was important that the story show how a super hero faces racism as opposed to a civilian. Not to say that the character didn't run into issues even when he wasn't dressed up as Icon. Also half the time, he would try to explain some occurrences away as being something other than what it was. It was Rocket, more often than not, who would see what happens to him and speak out about the discrimination he alone or they together faced.

As far as Augustus being an "alien in the guise of a middle-aged black millionaire", that was part of how he had the value system he had as opposed to Rocket. He was an alien so the character had a unique perspective to be unbiased in certain situations. Yet he had lived as a black man so he was able to understand the African American experience first hand.  Rocket was the young, impulsive kid from the 'hood element for the story who really was the main focus of the book. It was Rocket who created Icon after all. It was a kinda of coming of age story actually.

Milestone had intended Icon to present real social issues from the African American perspective along with action. in fact, all of their titles did this to a degree. That was what Milestone was using to differentiate themselves from DC and Marvel. Not saying the big Two didn't bring up social issues because they did. However, Milestone just brought those issues to light from a different perspective than the other companies. Teen pregnancy of a super hero character, racism toward individuals (not discrimination of mutants). gang violence and how it affects families and futures are some of the things Milestone wanted to express. Action was just part of the mix.If all you want is straight action then none of the Milestone comics might have been your taste. You definitely should have stuck with DC or Marvel titles. But take note that you had your fires and earthquakes (Worlds Collide arc), chemical or magical elements that turned people into super beings, love interests (he was dating the mayor for a brief time and Rocket had a "baby daddy") and he had to deal with things regular black people face just as Augustus Freeman IV. The only thing he really needed was some more super villains in addition to Holocaust and Surge. But then the series only went 42 issues. IF there had been time we all could have seen some more development of the character and stories I would think. unfortunately Milestone didn't get he chance as the series ended and their was no real wrap up. It just sorta stopped in mid-story. The positive thing is that Icon was the last title Milestone had before it went under. All the other titles had been canceled . Icon itself actually won a number of awards.

As for the thing about who is more likely to face racism,  Oprah or some other black person who is not rich? The truth is, BOTH. In fact I am surprised you use Oprah as an example as she has experience racism,even after she became famous and she has talked about those experiences. Does she run into as many as a black person on the street? Probably not, but she still has run into them ans so have alot of other wealthy blacks. That's that scenario were a black person who has "made it" thinks now that there rich, very one who deals with them sees green. Well, just ask Michael Jackson, OJ, Clarence Thomas (though he probably deserved it like OJ  :) ) and a certain president of a major entertainment company who writes comics what they think about that.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 12:19:35 am by Evasive1 »

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2007, 09:03:51 pm »
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.


ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.

Icon was more than just an alien who fell to earth and took the shape of a black man. The point was to see the dynamic of a "black" alien (Icon) and what he would go through as to a "white" alien (Superman) experienced. For instance Superman shows up to save the day and everybody cheers and applauds. When Icon first starting showing up the police tried to shoot him and Rocket. He continuously had problems that were related to the black experience in which a white hero like Superman never would. That was tone point of the book aside from showing the maturity of Rocket. Another idea of the book was to have a different individual assume the role of Icon as Icon was supposed to be an ideal not specifically a person. However, when the story arc occurred where Icon was going to leave earth, apparently there was fan backlash and the writers at Milestone changed their minds and kept him the story. Good thing to because the guy who took over the mantle was a purposefully silly characterization of Luke Cage. When Icon came back to Earth he had some new gadgets and supposedly increased power. Unfortunately, you never really get to see how this pans out since the comic was canceled not long after when Milestone folded.

I also felt Icon showed the two polar opposites of how black Americans feel about our situation in the world. For example, Icon was more of a black conservative who believed that black people needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop blaming the "man" for all it's ills. Rocket on the other hand was supposedly from the 'hood and was more liberal about her views based on how and where she lived. In this relationship both partners learned to be more sympathetic to the others point of view.



 
I don't know man. Let's put it this way. If a black flying guy started saving people from fires and earthquakes and stuff like that I think it would be farfetched to have Cops aiming guns at him just because he's black. I know that political commentary is good and all but, I just want brainless action with huge explosions, alien invasions, demons, vampires, evil geniuses and stuff like that. They should have kept the politics out of the equation and have ICON to be the Black Superman who fights evil. Instead of century old alien in the guise of a middle-aged black millionaire, they should have made him a late 20's lawyer, scientist or police officer who was exposed to some sort of chemical or magical element, which granted him powers beyond those of mere mortals. He should have had a girlfriend and several love interests. If he was to face racism and discrimination he should face them as a civilian not as a Superhero. I mean, who is more likely to fell victim of racism Oprah or us. At least she has her millions and lawyers to fall back on. So should've been with Icon. On his identity as Icon he would be revered by the world but when he's back on his identity as regular guy then he would be faced with the things regular black people (and people in general) had to deal with in their daily activities.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic with you comments or if your serious. If your serious then my response is to ask if you read a significant number of issues from the series? Alot of the things you say you wanted to see actually happened in that series so some of your comments are confusing. The police did not always point their guns at Icon, but his was initially what happened when he showed up on the scene depending on the circumstances. Eventually this didn't happen and he even worked with the city officials from time to time, but he still faced other problems that occurred due to him being black that Superman supposedly didn't. Thus it was important that the story show how a super hero faces racism as opposed to a civilian. Not to say that the character didn't run into issues even when he wasn't dressed up as Icon. Also half the time, he would try to explain some occurrences away as being something other than what it was. It was Rocket, more often than not, who would see what happens to him and speak out about the discrimination he alone or they together faced.

As far as Augustus being an "alien in the guise of a middle-aged black millionaire", that was part of how he had the value system he had as opposed to Rocket. He was an alien so the character had a unique perspective to be unbiased in certain situations. Yet he had lived as a black man so he was able to understand the African American experience first hand.  Rocket was the young, impulsive kid from the 'hood element for the story who really was the main focus of the book. It was Rocket who created Icon after all. It was a kinda of coming of age story actually.

mile stone had intended Icon to present real social issues from the African American perspective along with action. in fact all of their titles did this to a degree. That was what Milestone was using to differentiate themselves from DC and Marvel. Not saying the big Two didn't bring up social issues because they did. However, Milestone just brought those issues to light from a different perspective than the other companies. Teen pregnancy of a super hero character, racism toward individuals (not discrimination of mutants). gang violence and how it affects families and futures are some of the things Milestone wanted to express. Action was just part of the mix.If all you want is straight action then none of the Milestone comics might have been your taste. Yuo definitely should have stuck with DC or Marvel titles. Btu take note that you had your fires and earthquakes (Worlds Collide arc), chemical or magical elements that turned people into super beings, love interests (he was dating the mayor for a brief time and Rocket had a "baby daddy") and he had to deal with things regular black people face just as Augustus Freeman IV. the only thing he really need was some more super villians except Holocaust and Surge. Btu then the series only went 42 issues. IF the had been time we all could have seen some more development of the character and stories I would think. unfortunately Milestone didn't get he chance as the series ended and their was no real wrap up. It just sorta stopped in mid story. The positive thing is that Icon was the last title Milestone had before it went under. All the other titles had been canceled . Icon itself actually won a number of awards.

As for the thing about who is more likely to face racism,  Oprah or some other black person who is not rich? The truth is BOTH. In fact I am surprised you use Oprah as an example as she has experience racism,even after she became famous and she has talked about those experiences. Does she run into as many as a black person on the street? Probably not, but she still has run into them ans so have alot of other wealthy blacks. That's that scenario were a black person who has "made it" thinks now that there rich, very one who deals with them sees green. Well just ask Michael Jackson, OJ, Clarence Thomas (though he probably deserved it like OJ  :) ) and a certain president of a major entertainment company who writes comics what they think about that.

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2007, 12:50:22 am »
Yeah, I don't think fans had a problem with the whole trial and fight in space either. What drew fan complaints, according to the guys at Milestone, was that after that particular arc, Augustus Freeman IV was not going to return to Earth and was going to leave the title altogether. the writers then changed their mind which all in all I think was a good idea. However, I understand what they were trying to do in the that "Icon" was not suppose to be anyone person permanently. It is an ideal or symbol to live up to. I would guess that Rocket would eventually have become Icon as the series progressed if the writers had continued with their original plan..
OK. I thought it was all part of the plan. In fact, McDuffie said that one of his future ideas was for Icon to use his pod to turn himself into a woman (not sure why, but maybe sohe could fake his death like he had so many times before, which was why he was Augustus Freeman IV), so I always thought Augustus was in for the long run. But yeah, Raquel probably would have become Icon eventually.

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Offline Wise Son

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2007, 01:01:48 am »
Evasive, I just want to co-sign what SI said, you're clearly an extremely erudite Milestone fan, and it's great to have your input here.

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Offline The Evasive 1

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2007, 02:32:35 am »
Evasive, I just want to co-sign what SI said, you're clearly an extremely erudite Milestone fan, and it's great to have your input here.

I didn't really realize how much I had picked up from reading that series until I started explaining it.  :)

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2007, 04:14:49 am »
Did you ever read Icon, Cisco?  I remember it being a lot of fun.  The political stuff is there but not in the foreground.  I really like the origin story and him being older and wiser.  Just curious whether you were reacting to the description here or the book itself.  It's cool either way.


I've just read the first issue when they explain the guy's origin and was relaying on the despcriptions you guys made here but now after reading Evasive's post I realize I was talking off my butt. ;D lol

But I'm still thinking that they should have made him a real black guy/alien. Superman is white as most of the Kriptonians we've seen then why can Icon be a black alien from a mostly black planet? I guess that if I was a comic writer and would have made Icon that way.

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #89 on: January 19, 2007, 04:21:30 am »
But I'm still thinking that they should have made him a real black guy/alien. Superman is white as most of the Kriptonians we've seen then why can Icon be a black alien from a mostly black planet? I guess that if I was a comic writer and would have made Icon that way.
To paraphrase Icon, he's been a black man for longer than anyone else on the planet. ;)

I get what your saying, but the book works because Icon represents the history of African Americans, from slavery to the Harlem Renaissance to standing at MLK's side and on, while Rocket represents the reality of inner-city African-Americans in modern times.

Heh, Icon's real name was Arnus, and he looked like 'Kermit the frog with a better profile'.

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