Black Panther vs Apollo Creed

[D- Ruck]

The white man was unable to defeat Muhammad Ali in the boxing ring, nor were they able to do so in their courts of law where all of the odds were stacked in their favor. So where else could those white people who desperately wanted to see a white man deliver a beat down to Muhammad Ali turn to in order to see this happen? The realm of fantasy is where. Rocky Balboa - a character Stallone based upon the club fighter Chuck "The Bleeder" Wepner (who still maintains that he wasn't adequately compensated by Stallone for the use of his true life experience as the basis for the Rocky movies...that have become beyond nonsensical at this point if you ask me) - twice fights Apollo Creed - a character clearly based on Muhammad Ali. The first fight ends in a narrow victory for Creed. The rematch ends in a manner that is even more unbelievable and more stupid than the ending of their first fight. However, the result allowed those white fans who simply HAD to see Muhammad Ali - or someone enough like Ali to BE Ali - lose to a white fighter, to revel in that fantasy come true on the big screen.

I think you're giving Stallone way too much intellectual credit.  Dude didn't put any symbolism into his movies.  He's too dumb for that.

Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.

[supreme illuminati]

Must I quote RH DOOM in BP #19 on you,dawg? "Touchy subject,Jonathanos?" Hahahaha!!

Um, no.  Why would you think so?

Look,you voiced your opinion.Your opinion has been heard...er,"read". You feel it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving White superiority.There are quite a few of us who disagree,including me...

So what exactly was "taking it a trifle too far"?  Disagreeing with you?

even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.

I remember the skit that EDDIE MURPHY did spoofing how crazy White folx would act as ROCKY beat the Black fighters,whereas in real life brothas were whoopin off on everybody who stepped into the ring with them...including other brothas. I personally have experienced some questionable commentary by Wite people when they're talking amongst themselves when discussing how Rocky beat Clubber Lang ( "...and then he f*ckin goes and kicks that big f*ckin nigger's ass! IT WAS THE GREATEST sh*t I EVER SAW!" ...Other White guy:"OHHHH!! That sounds f*ckin KILLER!"  FIRST WHITE GUY:"GO SEE IT!  Go see the movie man,it's the greatest f*ckin sh*t you can ever f*ckin do! If Marciano was fukin alive,he'd kick ali's f*ckin ass AND he'd kick the livin sh*t outta Holmes too!"  OTHER WHITE GUY: "f*ckin right!'   you tend to remember exchanges like that when you're a kid and you don't see that many White folx where you live at AND you've been watching boxing since you were 3,practicing boxing and martial arts since you were 6 and 8,respectively.)

NEXT.

I loved COMING TO AMERICA and thought the barber shop scene was pure genius.  Murphy mocked both sides with that scene.  On the one hand, you had a white guy clinging to Marciano.  On the other, you had a black guy getting outrageous in his defense of Louis.  "Joe Louis was 87 years old!"  No matter how many times I see, I always laugh at that exchange.

I've experienced questionable and memorable commentary from people as well.  I'm going to remember this commentary about ROCKY, for example.

Look Jonathanos....

I did NOT say that I thought Stallone was a racist on page one,or anything remotely similar to your charges on page 2.On page 1,I was HALF-JOKING as I previously stated.If you took it to be something else...after I have TWICE now corrected you...then fine.Carry on and delude yourself as you please.

Your comment:"Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion." Is also entirely inaccurate.I told you what I thought about that issue already,and how I felt Stallone quite masterfully mined the wealth of perceptions and passions stirred by his ROCKY movies for his benefit and made some strong statements in the process.As I stated...I like most of the ROCKY series.I WOULD NOT like something wherein I think that the main thrust of the movie was both racist and emasculating Black men.I simultaneously DO NOT delude myself into thinking that quite a few White people would love to see a White guy overwhelm the dominant Black athlete...especially in such a manly sport as boxing.The fact that they have failed to do so partially accounts for the amazing and suddenly explosive popularity of MMA...as MMA requires more skill sets,the general perception is that a MMA guy can take a boxer,and far and away the most participants in MMA who get well paid are WHITE.Therefore,the subtle suggestion is that MMA>BOXING and WHITE MMA>BLACK BOXER.It's a testosterone thing.It's also shoddy logic,but it's an important aspect of the appeal...however unstated it is.Btw,I'm a MMA athlete and weapons practitioner,and I think all that noise in MMA will change as soon as the financial compensation becomes more on par with boxing...and with SHOWTIME and HBO preparing to jump on the MMA bandwagon,the paydays will soon increase...and then here come the bruthas en masse.

In regards to ROCKY...I repeat...in the end it's a movie series.Which I generally like.I don't know Stallone nor do I want to,frankly.I won't eschew meeting him if he wants to meet me,but I won't go out of my way to meet him or comment upon his beliefs because I am not Jean or Xavier and I suck at reading minds.

even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.

Are you confusing your posters?  I don't recall supreme illuminati expressing an opinion about Rocky III much less one that is at odds with the underlined statement above.

Aren't we limited to talking about the movies and people's reactions to them?  Unless somebody knows Mr. Stallone personally.

It's on page 1.  He confirmed that he does believe there was a message of white superiority in the ROCKY movies.

I have no doubts that there are those who took satisfaction that a white man "beat that uppity negro's ass" in ROCKY II.  I also have no doubts that there are those who were ticked off that "a honkey mfer was shown beating a brother."  

What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.

This is NOT true.On page 1 is an obviously half-serious,tongue-in-cheek deconstruction of ROCKY.Or at least,it SHOULD have been obvious.Also on page 1 is my contention that SUPERMAN should have SMASHED Ali.I noticed you said nary a word about that.How unsurprising.

What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.

My point is that intent is not required for such a message to be perceived.  So, in a sense, the message is in the eye of the beholder.

If you go in looking for something you'll find it.

When I go in looking for something,I'll TELL you,Jonathanos.NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.I hope my position is clear on this matter.

even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.

Are you confusing your posters?  I don't recall supreme illuminati expressing an opinion about Rocky III much less one that is at odds with the underlined statement above. 

Aren't we limited to talking about the movies and people's reactions to them?  Unless somebody knows Mr. Stallone personally.

Curtis is absolutely correct.The underlined statement he referred to is MY OWN.When I am specifically not joking,as the manner with which I treat the subject matter in that portion of the post clearly demonstrates.I hope I have made my position transparently clear even to the most mentally challenged of us whom populate the online community...and that is,once again,that I don't have the position as Jonathanos (mis)states and (mis)understands it,but as I specifically and repeatedly stated in the last two posts of mine.If I have failed,then I have failed with those individuals whom DON'T WANT to grasp my position in the first place,and frankly I don't care about their opinions,whomever they may be.

[Jonathanos]

Look Jonathanos....

I did NOT say that I thought Stallone was a racist on page one,or anything remotely similar to your charges on page 2.On page 1,I was HALF-JOKING as I previously stated.If you took it to be something else...after I have TWICE now corrected you...then fine.Carry on and delude yourself as you please.

I didn't say that you called Stallone a racist.  You have commented on what you view as a message of white superiority in the Rocky films.  Whether you believe it was due to Stallone's beliefs or Stallone playing on the desires of others isn't something I'm concerned with.  I said that in my opinion it's ridiculous to insinuate ROCKY has anything to do with the idea of white superiority.  To which you replied (verbatim):

"You feel it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving White superiority.There are quite a few of us who disagree,including me..."

That didn't really come across to me as "No, no, you got it all wrong."

Your comment:"Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion." Is also entirely inaccurate.I told you what I thought about that issue already,and how I felt Stallone quite masterfully mined the wealth of perceptions and passions stirred by his ROCKY movies for his benefit and made some strong statements in the process.As I stated...I like most of the ROCKY series.I WOULD NOT like something wherein I think that the main thrust of the movie was both racist and emasculating Black men.

I don't remember claiming you said it was central, or even important, to the series.

I simultaneously DO NOT delude myself into thinking that quite a few White people would love to see a White guy overwhelm the dominant Black athlete...especially in such a manly sport as boxing.The fact that they have failed to do so partially accounts for the amazing and suddenly explosive popularity of MMA...as MMA requires more skill sets,the general perception is that a MMA guy can take a boxer,and far and away the most participants in MMA who get well paid are WHITE.Therefore,the subtle suggestion is that MMA>BOXING and WHITE MMA>BLACK BOXER.It's a testosterone thing.It's also shoddy logic,but it's an important aspect of the appeal...however unstated it is.Btw,I'm a MMA athlete and weapons practitioner,and I think all that noise in MMA will change as soon as the financial compensation becomes more on par with boxing...and with SHOWTIME and HBO preparing to jump on the MMA bandwagon,the paydays will soon increase...and then here come the bruthas en masse.

The more people who are involved in a sport, the better.

In regards to ROCKY...I repeat...in the end it's a movie series.Which I generally like.I don't know Stallone nor do I want to,frankly.I won't eschew meeting him if he wants to meet me,but I won't go out of my way to meet him or comment upon his beliefs because I am not Jean or Xavier and I suck at reading minds.

I did initially say that I was going to assume those posts were joking.  Sin assured me he wasn't.  I shook my head at that.  You told me I was taking it too far.  I said (paraphrased): "No, all I was doing was giving my opinion on how ridiculous it is to suggest ROCKY being in part about proving white superiority."  You then said quite a few, including yourself, disagree.  And here we are.

This is NOT true.On page 1 is an obviously half-serious,tongue-in-cheek deconstruction of ROCKY.Or at least,it SHOULD have been obvious. Also on page 1 is my contention that SUPERMAN should have SMASHED Ali.I noticed you said nary a word about that.How unsurprising.

Not only had you recalled that Superman had his powers stripped away from him for the bout, another poster confirmed that Superman was beaten fair and square by Ali.

What was left to say?

What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.

My point is that intent is not required for such a message to be perceived.  So, in a sense, the message is in the eye of the beholder.

If you go in looking for something you'll find it.

When I go in looking for something,I'll TELL you,Jonathanos.NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.I hope my position is clear on this matter.

Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 

I mean, first, Rocky lost the first bout even though Creed wasn't properly trained.  And second, Rocky won the rematch but only by ONE SECOND and it was outright stated that he couldn't have won had he not trained to fight right-handed.  And let's not forget that it is strongly implied in the third film that Rocky's win is also due in part to the fact Creed was no longer at his best (having lost "the eye of the tiger, the edge!").  So I can't see any reasonable way one could come away from the series believing that it had anything to do with proving white superiority.

I came away from ROCKY believing it played off of the desire of the down-on-their-lucks to believe they can rise above the obstacles that face them and thrive.  That they can reach the unreachable star, beat the unbeatable foe, right the unrightable wrong, etc. etc.

And also that you shouldn't treat your opposition lightly as Apollo did in the first and fourth films and as Rocky did in the third.

Curtis is absolutely correct.The underlined statement he referred to is MY OWN.When I am specifically not joking,as the manner with which I treat the subject matter in that portion of the post clearly demonstrates.I hope I have made my position transparently clear even to the most mentally challenged of us whom populate the online community...and that is,once again,that I don't have the position as Jonathanos (mis)states and (mis)understands it,but as I specifically and repeatedly stated in the last two posts of mine.If I have failed,then I have failed with those individuals whom DON'T WANT to grasp my position in the first place,and frankly I don't care about their opinions,whomever they may be.

See early on.  If we misunderstood one another, no harm no foul.  I won't even take offense at the implied insult.

[supreme illuminati]

I could parry much of the foregoing matter in your post,Jonathanos,and follow through with a fatal thrust,but that's not needed.We agree on the final essential,regardless of how we reached that conclusion: We misunderstood each other. Therefore,as you indicated,no harm no foul.

[Curtis Metcalf]

Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 

You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

[Jonathanos]

I could parry much of the foregoing matter in your post,Jonathanos,and follow through with a fatal thrust,but that's not needed.

It would fail anyway.

[Jonathanos]

Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 

You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

Its success is a separate issue from what I'm discussing.  I agree that it very likely wouldn't have been as successful if the protagonist had not been white.

[Curtis Metcalf]

Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 

You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

Its success is a separate issue from what I'm discussing. 

Yeah, I got that.  It is, however, what I am talking about.

I agree that it very likely wouldn't have been as successful if the protagonist had not been white.

Good.

[supreme illuminati]

Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 

You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

It's not just you,dawg...

I could parry much of the foregoing matter in your post,Jonathanos,and follow through with a fatal thrust,but that's not needed.

It would fail anyway.

many a person prior to you--and with stronger arguments than yours--have made that same statement,I'm just getting tired of planting more people than THE GRIM REAPER. In fact,THE REAPER came by just a few minutes ago to ask me not to plant you either,because if I continue doing so ole GRIMMY will be out of a job.Since I don't fancy the cowl and sickle look--that should belong to THE REAPER and THE ORDER OF THE JEDI KNIGHTS,lol--I relented.

But I may change my mind.The point that Curtis raised is not even the beginning of the infinite multiverses of whoopins that I could unleash upon many of the premises that support your conlcusion.However,as I stated before,where we disagree at we disagree at,and we have misunderstood each other.I am willing to let matters lie as they are.I am willing to drop the issue.Right now.I hope you are as well.

Or are you interested in deconstructing our differing perspectives on ROCKY? I personally don't see how it could be edifying to anybody except you and those whom share your perspectives...and that edification would be only insofar as you are willing to consider a differing perspective than yours. Being not only Black but a practitioner of the very disciplines and more that ROCKY glamorizes onscreen,I would submit that my perspective would be sharply different from yours (assuming that you are NOT Black and engaged in like activities),and illuminate--haha--issues that you have no actual window into or frame of reference for.Therefore,some form of important lack of comprehension on YOUR part is inescapable.Since I am fully aware of this aspect of a discussion on this matter that we may engage upon and at this moment unwilling to ILLUMINATE you,I suggest that we let the matter lie.If you insist upon illumination,then I will oblige.But remember that old adage about being careful what you wish for...because you just might get it.In my case,I assure you,Jonathanos,you will most certainly "get it".

Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 

You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

Its success is a separate issue from what I'm discussing.  I agree that it very likely wouldn't have been as successful if the protagonist had not been white.

This admission by you is a nod not only to the fact that White people--like anybody else--respond best to White people whom they can relate to regardless of the venue or subject matter,but also the kind of bogeyman that Black superathletes have become in the minds of White Americans. Put another way...if the exact same story was told and the protagonist was Black,and defeated White foes,and you acknowledge that you agree that ROCKY wouldn't be as successful using this formula...then you have simultaneously acknowledged the racial morass and intense psychological interplay that race and class play in this country.That all by itself will be the beginning of your destruction in a debate,because you fail to see and grasp in a direct sense where this discussion MUST inevitably lead...which is that no matter how powerful the "against the odds,never say die" lesson of willpower and basic strength of character that ROCKY demonstrates (and he DOES do this,and he does it well) the racial element of specifically defeating BLACK boxers is what will and must torpedo your contentions as I understand them.

I understand your contention to be that ROCKY has nothing whatsoever to do with White supremacy/racism and the fragility of the psyche that this kind of "philosophy" can bring about.ROCKY's success--and your acknowledgement that the same morale and story wouldn't be as successful if ROCKY had been BLACK--is all the damning evidence needed to make my statement concrete,and yours ultimately inaccurate.

So,again,let's just let this matter lie. We disagree in certain areas...irreconcilably.In the main area we agree...that of an misunderstanding.No harm,no foul,as you stated.

[sinjection]

You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

I can't imagine "Black Rocky" having the same box office success either.

David Goyer said that when he first pitched his "Blade" movies to New Line Entertainment, they wondered if the movie wouldn't enjoy more success if a white man was cast to play the part of Blade instead of portraying the Vampire Slayer as he was originally created, as a black man. Given this mindset, I wouldn't be surprised that a "Black Rocky" movie would not be as successful at the box office.

I wonder if those fans who loved "Rocky" and "Hoosiers" also loved "Glory Road" as much. Somehow, I rather doubt it.

[sinjection]

Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.

Oh really? Well, where does that leave their REAL heavyweight boxing champion, "Smokin'" Joe Frazier? And what about Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker?

Uh oh...my post total adds up to the number 8. Time to hibernate, with my "Hero Member" self 

Will return in a few...

[Jonathanos]

If you say so, SI...

[supreme illuminati]

Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.

Oh really? Well, where does that leave their REAL heavyweight boxing champion, "Smokin'" Joe Frazier. And what about Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker?

Uh oh...my post total adds up to the number 8. Time to hibernate, with my "Hero Member" self 

Will return in a few...

hahaha,you and those "8s' of yours...

hey,wasn't SUGAR RAY ROBINSON from Philly? And B.HOP?

[voodoochild]

 I think all that noise in MMA will change as soon as the financial compensation becomes more on par with boxing...and with SHOWTIME and HBO preparing to jump on the MMA bandwagon,the paydays will soon increase...and then here come the bruthas en masse.

Yeah, not too many Brothers are going to risk their health for the pocket change they pay those MMA fighters.  Compared to boxing purses, that's like fighting for free.  I didn't know Showtime and HBO were planning on showing matches.  That's cool. 

[voodoochild]

I think you're giving Stallone way too much intellectual credit.  Dude didn't put any symbolism into his movies.  He's too dumb for that.

Box office stats would disagree.

Rocky: domestic gross $117,235,147
Rocky 2: $85,182,160
Rocky 3: $124,146,897
Rocky 4: $127,873,716
Rocky 5(and here's where the wheels came off): $40,946,358

but wait...the sh*t aint over...

Rocky Balboa: $65,723,000 domestic and counting.  With a budget of 24mil, Balboa is a certified hit.

I left off the Rambo numbers because we're discussing Rocky flicks.  Stallone may not be the best actor in the world, but dude is far from stupid.  He wrote the first Rocky film and held out until the studio allowed him to play the lead.  Career made, the rest is history.