Author Topic: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Recast or The Two Killings of T'Challa the Black Panther  (Read 571408 times)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3240 on: September 14, 2020, 01:26:50 pm »
The basic, professed definition of feminism that I've heard, that it simply means equality of the sexes, that definition I have no problem with, which would make me, I suppose a feminist. However, in practice, feminism has been something much different, and then black feminism has too often been about black male bashing and the 'ascension' of black females at the expense of black males and I would also argue the whole black community.

I looked at the video and while I admire the man's passion, I take some issues with his reasoning. When it comes to Thor, he's already been pushed to the side. He's not even the King of Asgard anymore (Valkyrie is) and it appears Jane will be the new Thor in Love & Thunder, which also follows the comics. I've heard that Hemsworth is not necessarily pleased by that and he still seems to be fighting to stay in the MCU and to stay relevant, but they've been slowly going at his character, perhaps starting with Ragnarok and definitely with fat Thor in Endgame. It's just that Hemsworth has good comic timing as Thor and was very game and so we all laughed along while his character was being diminished and set up to be given the heave ho.

As for Captain Marvel, they already have grown up Monica (Teyonah Parris), and the only thing right now that would prevent them from putting Monica over Carol if some unfortunate tragedy struck is Monica's (Parris's) skin color. But the idea that they wouldn't change Captain Marvel is one I don't believe. That film made a billion dollars, but IMO, the character didn't 'go over' like the MCU hoped, largely because Brie Larson appears to be a lightning rod on the internet, and she riles the alt-right, Men's Rights, crowd in ways that perhaps T'Challa triggers some feminists.

T'Challa is an important character in the comics and the MCU, however, and this is heresy here, he's not as important as Iron Man in reality. And that's largely because of skin color. Iron Man has had bigger, more well-known stories, he's been integrated and integral to a lot more of the major storylines throughout Marvel's history than T'Challa, and within the MCU, he was the heart of it. The runaway success of the first Iron Man film sold the idea of the MCU to millions. We don't get Coogler's Black Panther without Favreau's Iron Man.

I think sometimes as fans, black fans, and black fans of T'Challa, our dreams, our wishes override the reality. For me, I try to keep in mind that T'challa belongs to them (Marvel, Disney) and not to us. He and his world might come close to a being a black (power) fantasy but he is a white creation and is or can be guided by white minds and hands. And they'll do with the character-within the comics or the films-what they wish. If they think recasting will get them the most money, they'll do that. If they go with Shuri, Okoye, or Nakia as the new Panther because they think that will get them more money, they'll do that. I think both are valid options. However, I think circumstances have unfortunately set up Shuri, or another successor, taking the reins more organically than shoving T'Challa aside after the second or third movie, or doing something else to diminish or sideline him in his own movie. As I said before, those things can still happen even with a recast.

I will say this, Thor has been a tricky one
 His first two movies weren't that great and the 3rd one worked because it  was basically a buddy cop movie, anytime it had something serious or dark happened it was followed by comedy, so I can see how he might be getting phased out because his movie's were just not taking. Now if hos first movie did BP numbers and the sequels continued to do well I would say the push would be very odd, but still somewhat understable if his story was told. I just see them having issues telling his solo. But regardless he has been around for 10 years and all of his solos and every avengers movie.

T'Challa hasn't. Another issue that people are forgetting when it comes to replacing T'Challa with Shuri is explained here from. The CBR:


Quote from: MoneySpider
I'll say this about recasting T'Challa in the MCU...I personally think Disney SHOULD recast T'Challa. Because so far, he already "died" in his solo movie, then was "resurrected" later in the movie and reclaimed his kingdom, THEN died FOR REAL when he got snapped by Thanos in Infinity War, then got resurrected FOR REAL when he came back through the portal in End Game, thus regaining his kingdom. It would look extremely foolish for Disney to now kill the character off YET AGAIN and thereby have him lose his kingdom YET AGAIN. How many times are they going to kill this black man?

Also, if Disney does not recast T'Challa, then they would be setting up a dangerous precedence, because God forbid, what if other actors and actresses portraying major characters in the MCU pass away? Are they not going to recast those characters and kill those characters off as well, especially if those characters' story arcs aren't complete? If they do, it would look odd. If they don't recast T'Challa, but recast those other major characters, it would also look odd.

In addition, T'Challa himself in the MCU was/is a major inspiration to a lot of people because of the Black Panther movie, and I don't feel as though you permanently kill off a character like that, knowing how important he is to a lot of people, especially kids.

I also think it's odd that some people on certain sites can't fathom having T'Challa be portrayed by anyone other than Chadwick Boseman.  It's definitely sad that Chadwick has transitioned, but to act as though no other black man can ever portray T'Challa because that actor might not be as good at it as Chadwick was, is baffling to me. Because now we're talking about denying other black actors the opportunity to portray T'Challa, who is such an iconic character.

That's almost like saying, "Well, I loved the way this particular writer wrote Black Panther in his solo series, but since the writer passed away, I really can't see anyone else writing T'Challa as well as HE did, therefore, I don't think anyone else should write T'Challa in his own solo book, because the writing of T'Challa might not be as good. So let's replace T'Challa in his own book with Shuri, or another character!"

Ontop of how phasing him out for Shuri will likely turn into her literally taking over his franchise as since Letitia is young she could play Shuri for 10 years and havo and Shuri as BP on 3 solos plus Avengers movie's means average people will see her as the BP and if a reboot ever happened (there's no guarantee that it will happen 10 years is a long time and comic book movies could fade away in thst time) it would be met with people saying Shuri is the BP and it would be weird for T'Challa to take over since it's her franchise and chastising Marvel for getting rid of the first premier Black Female hero.

Plus disney is a business and so everything going forward would be geared towards Shuri. Cartoons games toys etc etc. All the while T'Challa is simply a footnote on her journey. That is a very realistic situation and one that should not happen as T'Challa shouldn't be kicked out of his own franchise because Chadwick passed. I know that Chad wouldn't want T'Challa to die with him And he would want the character to outlive him. So let T'Challa continue his career and his story arc to completion


When it comes to Thor you make some good points, though I think him being pushed to the side, just as he finally hit paydirt with Ragnarok and also in his interactions with the Guardians and also his memorable turn in Endgame, was something they were already cooking up as part of pushing the social agenda they had for the MCU, even the audience seems to be pretty okay with Hemsworth still as Thor. Perhaps Thor was the first to go because he had the weakest trilogy of films, and thereís not really much of a major comic book precedent female legacy character for Captain America like there has been for Thor, Iron Man (Rescue, Ironheart), and even TíChalla. It is a good point that Thor has had three movies and a decade in the MCU where TíChalla hasnít had that long, so it would make more sense to put the Thunder God to pasture.

You and Moneyspider also make good points about what a Shuri-led BP franchise could mean for the future of TíChalla. To be honest, itís something I hadnít thought about. I can see how if Shuri as BP does catch on it could mean a marginalization if not erasure of TíChalla from the comics, cartoons, video games, and toy aisles as Disney puts its marketing behind pushing Shuri. That could also set up a scenario where Shuri, for the mass audience, becomes Ďtheí Black Panther, like how some fans were upset when Ryan Reynolds was cast as Green Lantern, because the only Green Lantern they knew was John Stewart, courtesy of the Justice League cartoon. Even back in the day, I thought Stewart was the second Green Lantern (based on when I first encountered him in the comics, but later learned he was third after Guy Gardner). Shuri taking over doesnít necessarily have to mean TíChalla is sidelined especially if a Shuri-BP franchise acknowledges TíChallaís passing and a large part of MCU Shuriís story is about trying to leave up to TíChallaís example. Statues, flashbacks, ancestral plain visits, etc. can be used to keep the spirit of TíChalla alive even if heís not physically in the franchise anymore. I donít want TíChalla erased, and he doesnít necessarily have to be, even if he isnít in the film, if handled right and with care, and I think Coogler can do that. I got to say though that this is the Black Panther franchise, and while TíChalla is the best known Black Panther, it has been long established-in comics-and has been in the MCU as well-that he wasnít the only Black Panther. He presumably succeeded TíChaka (though there might have been another MCU Panther before TíChalla for all we know). Succession is part of the BP mythos more than a lot of other comic book characters. When I think about say Aquaman, that superhero name belongs to Arthur, while the throne of Atlantis is up for succession, whereas with Black Panther, the title and the identity go to a successor.

If Shuri takes over and say gets two or three films, by that point the comic book movie boom finally might be over. Even if thatís the case, that doesnít take away the films weíve already gotten with TíChalla nor does it erase his decades of comic adventures. And with these films making so much money, even if the boom ends, I canít see them ever completely going away in movies, television, cartoons, video games, etc; every now and then somebody even makes a Western.

I thought the comic book writer comparison was interesting, though I donít really think it applies. For one though, there are some fans who are very attached to certain writers and artists, and when it comes to novels I will read griping about how Brian Herbertís Dune novels donít compare to his fatherís works, though I havenít seen anyone say that Brian shouldnít be writing them. And I canít say that some of the novels like the Bond or Jason Bourne series that go on after their creatorsí deaths are as prized as the original works. That being said, most readers of comics know how fluid the business is and how writers and artists are changing all the time, and how there are new takes on characters. Thatís different than an actor playing a role to great acclaim who suddenly dies in the prime of his life and then having someone step in. Usually when thereís a new actor, thatís when there is a reboot. Only the Joel Schumacher Batman films-from Kilmer to Clooney-is one major midstream change I can think of-and we see how that turned out. Batman & Robin wasnít Clooneyís fault solely but he didnít bring much to the role either. I also think about how none of The Crow recastings ever took, though I don't think all of them were supposed to be Draven, which argues for and against recasting but also having a successor character, but  I digress.

Boseman, like Wesley Snipes almost a generation before, had defined what for many people was an obscure character and thatís different than the umpteenth actor playing Batman or Superman, and whether thatís fair or not, thatís how it is. Just having someone else step in-while I would still go see it-I think is missing a chance to acknowledge what Boseman brought to the role, the tragedy of life, the suddenness of death, and the idea of black lives mattering in a way that is more profound than just continuing on as if nothing has happened, in the real world. One of the best things for me about the first Black Panther film was when it did tap into the real world, that gave it a resonance that other MCU or comic book films lacked. I would rather they keep going that way than back off. I certainly want to see strong black male characters, strong black male lead characters, but I also want to see strong black female characters and strong black female lead characters as well, and fate has cruelly set up the Black Panther franchise to provide for both.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 01:31:36 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3241 on: September 14, 2020, 01:30:24 pm »
The only story to explore after endgame is whether Tchalla is in charge or not. Which based on you statement, you dont want to happen.

Now if they did a movie telling how Tchalla became BP and the rest of his movies took place in that time period, you could cast a younger actor. But they'd have had to do that is Chad was alive.  But the rest of the cast except maybe Ramonda would have to be recast too.

Actually, the story to explore would be following after the themes of the first movie. He opened up Wakanda, and then they housed vision, were invaded for the first time, both him and Shuri got snapped, and then faced off R 2 against the invading Force again. Wakanda is more vulnerable then ever as they realize how easily they were found out and thst the universe is quite large with alot of powerful alien forces that rival Wakandan tech. How does Wakandans feel about that? What changed in the 5 years T'Challa and Shuri were dead? How does T'Challa balance being on the world and universe stage and how will Wakanda prevent future invasions like what happened? Does T'Challa close Wakanda? Does he start being proactive in trying to keep Wakanda safe by going on the offensive? 

There Is so much to explore further then whether he is in charge or not. Im Quite surprised you think his story is done and should hand over the mantle.  Not sure why you think there is LITERALLY nothing else to tell for T'Challa, especially since he is also supposed to be apart of the new face of the avenger's. We have all types of stories still easily. I mean by that logic and your admission Chad should pass on the mantle to Shuri regardless of he passed or not since apparently his story is done. Sorry but he ain't comic Shuri, and mcu Shuri is nowhere near able to headline the franchise, nor should it be expected. It obvious T'Challas arc isnt even close to being done.


The story he started in Civil War is done. A new story can always be told, but people are acting likes its incomplete. Considering Okoye was assisting in Avenger affairs and WK supplied most of the air tech support for the final fight and people were parading in the streets at the end of the movie, I'd say the story wrapped up. The released teaser synopses was that an outside force was going to try and take over(not sure it was confirmed by Marvel). So that would be a brand new story. Because if we go from parading to rape camps like Coates did, I know most of the people on here are going to be upset.

And to be clear, I'm not against recasting, I just think with his death its an opportunity to shake the story up. Only thing I care about is a good movie and I think that makes good drama. I remember when I walked out of the theater Friday morning of its release weekend. I came on here and posted greatest movie ever made. I am fully satisfied with my Black Panther experience. So making changes doesn't effect me.

Yes. I think that T'Challa did have an arc. Heck, he had an arc just in Civil War alone. But we saw him over several films grow into a wise (though he still had much to learn) young king. Definitely there are tons of stories that could've been explored, but we did get to see the character mature. Would I have been down for more? Certainly. I'm also not dead set against recasting, though I find Shuri becoming the next BP a more organic move.

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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3242 on: September 14, 2020, 04:32:57 pm »
@ emperor

One thing you brought up that I have seen around is that people saying they can have T'Challa appear to Shuri or in the astral plane while she deals with living up to his legacy. The problem with that, other that it being exactly the same thing as BP 1. If T'Challa is killed off screen, you really can only have him appear in the first movie with Shuri then after that he isn't going to keep getting mentioned it brought up. How much of a presence can he have when the expectation would be for her to of course struggle for her first lead movie, then ultimately by the end she would be crafting her own path  and not relying on T'Challa anymore. Thats just how these movies go. T'Challa did the same with T'Chaka, the same would happen with Shuri.

And I would argue that it was pretty recent thst it became a mantle and for the Majority of his publishing history, it was a moniker thst was his and his alone, then retconned to be a passed on mantle. And he is the most known because he is the only one that matters. T'Chaka we never see as BP, hell we saw his grandpa azzari as BP more than T'Chaka, and Shuri only has 6 years of tone as BP and less then 2 decades of existing and her taking over would push T'Challa or be a footnote in her journey. She doesn't ha e a huge history to draw on and her Cap was being BP hence why when T'Challa took it back we have what we see today, a failed griot angle from Coates, and nnendis failed attempt thst basically had her become BP again because no one has any idea or path for her because nothing was ever established and carved out for her to break away. Instead of making her own place like dick becoming nightwing.

Also BP isn't the mythos that should have to address everything because businesses could not be bothered to actually put in the effort to provide representation. I remember before BP dropped, people were hoping for the expected stuff no dysfunction, no slave stuff, and Black people looking capable and powerful, but then they started
wanting Ayo to be I. A relationship with Aneka in the movie, setting up Storm so she can get a Solo later. All this stuff that becomes an expectation for black movies to address and give representation to thst white lead movies don't have to deal with.

So while yes they could address the death of Chadwick on the movie and go the route of a premier Black Female hero. From the wise words of MoS


Quote from:  author MindofShadow
I think Black Panther, the movie character, is different too though.

This would be much easier to simply write off a white male character. They are a everywhere. There is no "importance" to a white male character at all.

T'challa is literally the only leading black male. And that fact was played up by Marvel and everyone else to point too how important the character is to a whole demographic of people.

To shelve the character completely seems disingenuous. If he is sooooooooooooooo important, how can he be shelved? Would Chadwick really want to character written off with his death?

Your post is 100% true but there is definitely other sides to it. I don't think any side is wrong except for the people who are using the tragedy to push their agendas.

And I honestly wouldn't be stunned if Coogler bounced and moved on. A lot of his options kinda suck. If they don't recast, he has to re-write his entire script. If he wants to recast, he has to go through that (horrible) process. And it could be that coogler wants to do one thing and Disney wants to do another. Also, there is almost no way this movie meets its release date with this + covid. He might not want to be stuck in this limbo forever and may have another project he wants to work on.

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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3243 on: September 15, 2020, 04:39:34 pm »
@ emperor

One thing you brought up that I have seen around is that people saying they can have T'Challa appear to Shuri or in the astral plane while she deals with living up to his legacy. The problem with that, other that it being exactly the same thing as BP 1. If T'Challa is killed off screen, you really can only have him appear in the first movie with Shuri then after that he isn't going to keep getting mentioned it brought up. How much of a presence can he have when the expectation would be for her to of course struggle for her first lead movie, then ultimately by the end she would be crafting her own path  and not relying on T'Challa anymore. Thats just how these movies go. T'Challa did the same with T'Chaka, the same would happen with Shuri.

And I would argue that it was pretty recent thst it became a mantle and for the Majority of his publishing history, it was a moniker thst was his and his alone, then retconned to be a passed on mantle. And he is the most known because he is the only one that matters. T'Chaka we never see as BP, hell we saw his grandpa azzari as BP more than T'Chaka, and Shuri only has 6 years of tone as BP and less then 2 decades of existing and her taking over would push T'Challa or be a footnote in her journey. She doesn't ha e a huge history to draw on and her Cap was being BP hence why when T'Challa took it back we have what we see today, a failed griot angle from Coates, and nnendis failed attempt thst basically had her become BP again because no one has any idea or path for her because nothing was ever established and carved out for her to break away. Instead of making her own place like dick becoming nightwing.

Also BP isn't the mythos that should have to address everything because businesses could not be bothered to actually put in the effort to provide representation. I remember before BP dropped, people were hoping for the expected stuff no dysfunction, no slave stuff, and Black people looking capable and powerful, but then they started
wanting Ayo to be I. A relationship with Aneka in the movie, setting up Storm so she can get a Solo later. All this stuff that becomes an expectation for black movies to address and give representation to thst white lead movies don't have to deal with.

So while yes they could address the death of Chadwick on the movie and go the route of a premier Black Female hero. From the wise words of MoS


Quote from:  author MindofShadow
I think Black Panther, the movie character, is different too though.

This would be much easier to simply write off a white male character. They are a everywhere. There is no "importance" to a white male character at all.

T'challa is literally the only leading black male. And that fact was played up by Marvel and everyone else to point too how important the character is to a whole demographic of people.

To shelve the character completely seems disingenuous. If he is sooooooooooooooo important, how can he be shelved? Would Chadwick really want to character written off with his death?

Your post is 100% true but there is definitely other sides to it. I don't think any side is wrong except for the people who are using the tragedy to push their agendas.

And I honestly wouldn't be stunned if Coogler bounced and moved on. A lot of his options kinda suck. If they don't recast, he has to re-write his entire script. If he wants to recast, he has to go through that (horrible) process. And it could be that coogler wants to do one thing and Disney wants to do another. Also, there is almost no way this movie meets its release date with this + covid. He might not want to be stuck in this limbo forever and may have another project he wants to work on.


Shuri? Should become The Ancient Future. Not BP. The role of BP is not one that Letitia Wright would rock well, even if she's given a Gal Gadot makeover and the action was actually done by Black female stunt doubles wearing the Panther habit. Why is that? Because Letitia absolutely KILLS IT as Shuri the Tech Genius with spectacular personality, powerfully likable charisma and personality, and carving her own niche. She's NOT the action heavy character that BP is required to be IN ADDITION TO the tech genius, Prep Demi-God, etc that he is. Shuri? Is Personalityx10+Hidden FiguresxGoogle or Tony Starks 5.0 visavis genius and tech is concerned. She would be quite impressive to Reed and Valeria Richards.

We need T'Challa. We need T'Challa King of Wakanda and King of the Dead [ hopefully ]  more than we need any single actor to play him; even an actor we love as much as we all love T'Chadwick. We need that powerful message. We need that powerful leader. And T'Challa CAN'T be Killmonger. Michael B. Jordan killed that role TOO WELL for him to return as BP [ as some people were suggesting and which even I thought about for a minnit there ].

I'd love to see MBJ become SUPERMAN, though. He's PERFECT for that role. The BLACK Superman? Ohhh MAN. He'd KILL. THAT. ROLE. We'd finally have a Superman who can legitimately carry a fight scene. Another bonus that I hear the sistahs always speak on: he'd be a monster sex symbol, too.

Shuri? Seeks to become the protector of Wakanda but NOT to try to be T'Challa With Breasts. She becomes? A cross between a tech genius and a seer. She gets visions, periodic flashes of what's coming next. She doesn't ingest The Heart Shaped Herb. Instead, she asks Bast for guidance as she gets her tech on. Maybe she grows from Iron Panther into The Ancient Future? Something like that.
Btw I'd like to see the IRON MAN franchise continued with Pepper Potts, Iron Daughter whatshername and Riri Williams. Just throwing that in there.
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Offline Ture

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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3244 on: September 18, 2020, 09:05:28 pm »
Hey Emperorjones, I'll respond to your post asap, I haven't forgotten you brother. Meanwhile...


Entertainment Weekly celebrates the life and work of Chadwick Boseman




PEOPLE Magazine Cover Honors Chadwick Boseman
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http://pyakule.com/magazine.html
Special Black Panther Edition and more

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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3245 on: September 19, 2020, 08:01:28 am »
@ emperor

One thing you brought up that I have seen around is that people saying they can have T'Challa appear to Shuri or in the astral plane while she deals with living up to his legacy. The problem with that, other that it being exactly the same thing as BP 1. If T'Challa is killed off screen, you really can only have him appear in the first movie with Shuri then after that he isn't going to keep getting mentioned it brought up. How much of a presence can he have when the expectation would be for her to of course struggle for her first lead movie, then ultimately by the end she would be crafting her own path  and not relying on T'Challa anymore. Thats just how these movies go. T'Challa did the same with T'Chaka, the same would happen with Shuri.

And I would argue that it was pretty recent thst it became a mantle and for the Majority of his publishing history, it was a moniker thst was his and his alone, then retconned to be a passed on mantle. And he is the most known because he is the only one that matters. T'Chaka we never see as BP, hell we saw his grandpa azzari as BP more than T'Chaka, and Shuri only has 6 years of tone as BP and less then 2 decades of existing and her taking over would push T'Challa or be a footnote in her journey. She doesn't ha e a huge history to draw on and her Cap was being BP hence why when T'Challa took it back we have what we see today, a failed griot angle from Coates, and nnendis failed attempt thst basically had her become BP again because no one has any idea or path for her because nothing was ever established and carved out for her to break away. Instead of making her own place like dick becoming nightwing.

Also BP isn't the mythos that should have to address everything because businesses could not be bothered to actually put in the effort to provide representation. I remember before BP dropped, people were hoping for the expected stuff no dysfunction, no slave stuff, and Black people looking capable and powerful, but then they started
wanting Ayo to be I. A relationship with Aneka in the movie, setting up Storm so she can get a Solo later. All this stuff that becomes an expectation for black movies to address and give representation to thst white lead movies don't have to deal with.

So while yes they could address the death of Chadwick on the movie and go the route of a premier Black Female hero. From the wise words of MoS


Quote from:  author MindofShadow
I think Black Panther, the movie character, is different too though.

This would be much easier to simply write off a white male character. They are a everywhere. There is no "importance" to a white male character at all.

T'challa is literally the only leading black male. And that fact was played up by Marvel and everyone else to point too how important the character is to a whole demographic of people.

To shelve the character completely seems disingenuous. If he is sooooooooooooooo important, how can he be shelved? Would Chadwick really want to character written off with his death?

Your post is 100% true but there is definitely other sides to it. I don't think any side is wrong except for the people who are using the tragedy to push their agendas.

And I honestly wouldn't be stunned if Coogler bounced and moved on. A lot of his options kinda suck. If they don't recast, he has to re-write his entire script. If he wants to recast, he has to go through that (horrible) process. And it could be that coogler wants to do one thing and Disney wants to do another. Also, there is almost no way this movie meets its release date with this + covid. He might not want to be stuck in this limbo forever and may have another project he wants to work on.

Apologies, but I havenít had a chance to really sit down and take in your reply. When it comes to the astral plane, what you suggest could happen, and in some ways, should happen in terms that if Shuri becomes the next Black Panther the stories should revolve more and more around her as she grows in the role. That doesnít mean that TíChalla has to be completely forgotten. I think about how Star Wars uses Force Ghosts. They could always bring TíChalla, TíChaka, or maybe even Killmonger back as spirits to advise or guide Shuri if she needs it, though I fully understand that might be considered Ďmansplainingí by some.

Also, they need not kill TíChalla off screen. I mean they could just have a person in a BP suit die a heroic death on screen. Iím sure they could even use some of Bosemanís dialogue if they need the character to speak. Who knows how many scenes with Boseman that were cut from the film, and perhaps could be spliced into new movies, a la Carrie Fisher in The Rise of Skywalker?

Shuri doesnít have a huge history to draw on, though as has been pointed out, the movies donít necessarily follow the comics, and TíChallaís stories could simply become Shuriís stories in the MCU. Further, thereís nothing stopping them from creating new stories, new villains, etc for her. I think comic book movies today forget that a lot, because they are very concerned about stroking nostalgia. I donít dispute at all how Shuri has been inadequately depicted in the comics. If it had been my druthers, after DoomWar, TíChalla wouldíve been back as the only Black Panther and Shuri wouldíve been given a new name and suit.

While I feel you about the burden of representation, the Black Panther movie was made based on that rising tide for greater representation. Whenever we do have a breakout hit, it seems like thereís some other group asking what about us, instead of joining us in celebration of how hard it took just to get this movie or television series made, etc. And then thereís the gender warring within our community where black men are somehow considered overrepresented and benefiting from patriarchy and privilege in Hollywood, at the expense of black women, as if there is some real competition happening. Of course when it comes to black pop culture/genre culture, thereís also a feminist cannibalization going on (itís in white pop culture too, but they have a lot more characters that have Ďmade ití than there are black characters) of taking roles from black males to give them to black females (like how David F. Walker made Nightshade the new Nighthawk for no good reason IMO), or this desire to push males to the side for females, and weíve seen that in Black Lightning, though they havenít completely forgotten about Jefferson. Even if TíChalla is recast, I keep saying that that doesnít stop them from undercutting him or attempting to push him to the side for black female characters, LGBTQ characters, and perhaps other representation.

Let me be clear, Iím not against black female superheroes, and I want to see movies and more television series with black women as the lead characters. I enjoyed Regina Kingís Sister Night in Watchmen. Some of it was a stretch, but Iíve always liked Kingís acting and I loved her costume and code name, and I also liked the fact that they didnít punk out her husband like I thought they were going to do.

Though I got some issues with Black Lightning and how Jefferson is treated, I donít think Anissa and Jennifer are bad characters. Iíve also liked some of what Iíve seen of Vixen on Arrow, and not as much on Legends just because I donít look at Legends. I did like and own the Vixen cartoon series. It would be great if DC did more with Bumblebee and also Nubia. As for Marvel, I would have no problem with Monica Rambeau getting a film or becoming the co-star of Captain Marvel 2 and perhaps taking over that franchise after the third film, to be fair to Brie Larson-even though Iím not a fan of her Danvers. Iíve long thought Marvel could, and should do more with Storm, though I am doubtful on the idea of a Storm solo film. I like Valiantís Livewire and could see them doing a film with her. The black female Kick-Ass could make for a gritty Netflix action series. And there are other black female characters out there that deserve a push.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3246 on: September 21, 2020, 09:32:37 pm »
My Two Cents: Killing off T'Challa is a short-sighted idea and would be a mistake on a number of levels, many of which are represented in MoneySpider's quote above. Absolutely loved Chadwick and am still grieving his loss. However, T'Challa could and should be bigger. He should continue to thrill and inspire our youth while providing a shining example of Black strength and excellence! This is needed and should not be dismissed. There are many more T'Challa stories to tell and more Black artists to convey them, Aldis Hodge and Jonathan Majors come to mind. Not as replacements for Chadwick, but successors. I love Letitia and Shuri and would love to see the character further explored, pursuing her own stories. In over 50 years, I've consumed a ton of stories featuring a plethora of heroes. Precious few have looked like me. Our kids have it better in this regard thanks to T'Challa and Luke Cage and Black Lightning. I had Flash Gordon, Batman and James Bond. Much as we love the players, it's the characters that allow us to imagine and dream. Now of all times is not the time to take T'Challa away. I truly believe Chadwick would agree.

My Two Cents.

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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3247 on: September 22, 2020, 03:35:10 am »
I just feel like cutting T'Challas time short would be a huge mistake all over the guise of being "respectful"  and "no one could replace Chadwick" I mean with Spiderman, Batman, James Bond and superman movies, no one is replacing the actor that played the character before them, but rather they are a successor. And the sane should be done for Chad. I mean look at what he has said in interviews, no where does it sound like he wanted the character to live and die with him. He wanted to keep inspiring people as the character on obviously, but he wanted the character to continue to grow. Plus I really just have a hard time not seeing Shuri as a Tony Stark type, quippy and fun, but not serious enough for the role of ruler and BP, and if you have a sudden change in personality it can be weird..

And again I am all for Black girl empowerment, it's a great thing, however, it needs to be demanded and pushed in it's own vein with characters who are their own stand alone heroes and not supporting cast members of other heroes trying to take the role fro. The protagonist. That rarely ever works and it's a huge disservice to the franchise to do so. Plus when seeing a these articles popping up about how marvel can tribute T'Challa they are frankly... All about agendas and nothing about honoring Chad. Latest one was killing T'Challa off in a post credit scene and having the person who does it be the next big bad to "have him die heroically whole also setting up how dangerous the next big villain is and setting their arc in motion" and it just reeks of agenda and using T'Challa as some sort of prop for someone else. So for me? I will keep pushing back and supporting a recast so T'Challa can get his fill story told to completion and he gets the respect he deserves and Chad gets the respect for all his hard work that he deserves as well

Offline CvilleWakandan

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« Reply #3248 on: September 22, 2020, 02:14:20 pm »
But are main characters replaced within the same continuity? Bond has the theory that his name and double 0 are just part of his title making new actors fit in. Spiderman are reboots. The closest to same continuity is the early Batman movies. Mostly because the same person played Alfred.
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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3249 on: September 22, 2020, 05:59:47 pm »
I mean with Spiderman, Batman, James Bond and superman movies, no one is replacing the actor that played the character before them, but rather they are a successor.




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« Reply #3250 on: September 22, 2020, 06:01:26 pm »
But are main characters replaced within the same continuity? Bond has the theory that his name and double 0 are just part of his title making new actors fit in. Spiderman are reboots. The closest to same continuity is the early Batman movies. Mostly because the same person played Alfred.

That's one of the things I was noticing. You had the same Alfred and Commissioner Gordon in the Burton-Schumacher films, and so you could accept they were the same continuity, though you had two different Harvey Dents (Billy Dee Williams and then Tommy Lee Jones). Also the styles of Burton and Schumacher were so different, its also easy to accept two different continuities.

And Spider-Man, now has J.K. Simmons in both the Raimi and the MCU films, though it appears these will be two different, or slightly different takes on JJJ. With Bond, Julie Dench was brought over from the Bronsnan to the Craig era, however Craig's films were a reboot, with him being a newly minted 00 Agent and not the "dinosaur" Brosnan was supposed to be. So, it's like having the same supporting characters sometimes is more to satisfy fans even if it doesn't always work for the 'reality' within the films.

Only the old Batman films I can think of where you could say they changed actors-from Keaton to Kilmer and then to Clooney-and they were all supposed to be in the same continuity. I personally don't count the Keaton to Kilmer because the directorial styles were so different. I do count the Kilmer to Clooney, and as I was saying before-if I recall-that change didn't result in a winning film, though Clooney wasn't the real or total cause of that disaster. Superman Returns attempted to carry on from the Christopher Reeve films and to get the audience to buy that Brandon Routh, Kate Bosworth, and Kevin Spacey were the same characters played by Reeve, Margot Kidder, and Gene Hackman, and the fact there was no Superman Returns 2 let's us know how well that recasting went. The Terminator franchise has also recast John Connor multiple times, and each sequel after Judgment Day has been considered either a disappointment or a box office dud. Also, Sarah Connor was recast in Terminator Genisys, and while I personally liked that film, most of the world did not. All of the films after Judgment Day were sold as being in-continuity successors to that film and in the same reality, though they wound up canceling each other out, and Genisys did one better by canceling all the older Terminator films except for it. And mass audiences just weren't having it. I also recall Julianne Moore taking over for Jodie Foster in Hannibal and I can't say if that was a success or not because I've only seen a bit of it. I would consider the next film, about a Young Lecter, a reboot.

When most major franchises change lead actors it's a reboot or a television adaptation, like how Blade went from Wesley Snipes to Kirk Jones and now will be Mahershala Ali. Supporting characters it's much easier to change, like they did with War Machine.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 06:11:07 pm by Emperorjones »

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« Reply #3251 on: September 23, 2020, 03:23:31 am »
I think with those listed, it depends on the directors as well, of they change actors playing the main character then completely change the direction as well for where they are going, you can end up with disasters and most of the time, it's not the actors fault, the directors, or script just isn't up to par and you get situations where people just aren't having it. I feel if they find the right actor 9?one who wants to be a proper successor and follow in Chad's doorstep and path of elevation, I think it will be fine and can have great success, maybe not BP 1 numbers (hell even with Chad that would be difficult to copy, however, I think the film will still do straight fire numbers

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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3252 on: September 23, 2020, 08:11:46 am »
I think with those listed, it depends on the directors as well, of they change actors playing the main character then completely change the direction as well for where they are going, you can end up with disasters and most of the time, it's not the actors fault, the directors, or script just isn't up to par and you get situations where people just aren't having it. I feel if they find the right actor 9?one who wants to be a proper successor and follow in Chad's doorstep and path of elevation, I think it will be fine and can have great success, maybe not BP 1 numbers (hell even with Chad that would be difficult to copy, however, I think the film will still do straight fire numbers

I think so too. Losing Chad was a heart breaker no doubt but I think that they have to carry on with T'Challa as BP and do a recast. It would be alot worse to lose both Chad and T'Challa.
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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3253 on: September 23, 2020, 05:08:33 pm »
I just feel like cutting T'Challas time short would be a huge mistake all over the guise of being "respectful"  and "no one could replace Chadwick" I mean with Spiderman, Batman, James Bond and superman movies, no one is replacing the actor that played the character before them, but rather they are a successor. And the sane should be done for Chad. I mean look at what he has said in interviews, no where does it sound like he wanted the character to live and die with him. He wanted to keep inspiring people as the character on obviously, but he wanted the character to continue to grow. Plus I really just have a hard time not seeing Shuri as a Tony Stark type, quippy and fun, but not serious enough for the role of ruler and BP, and if you have a sudden change in personality it can be weird..

And again I am all for Black girl empowerment, it's a great thing, however, it needs to be demanded and pushed in it's own vein with characters who are their own stand alone heroes and not supporting cast members of other heroes trying to take the role fro. The protagonist. That rarely ever works and it's a huge disservice to the franchise to do so. Plus when seeing a these articles popping up about how marvel can tribute T'Challa they are frankly... All about agendas and nothing about honoring Chad. Latest one was killing T'Challa off in a post credit scene and having the person who does it be the next big bad to "have him die heroically whole also setting up how dangerous the next big villain is and setting their arc in motion" and it just reeks of agenda and using T'Challa as some sort of prop for someone else. So for me? I will keep pushing back and supporting a recast so T'Challa can get his fill story told to completion and he gets the respect he deserves and Chad gets the respect for all his hard work that he deserves as well

I think with those listed, it depends on the directors as well, of they change actors playing the main character then completely change the direction as well for where they are going, you can end up with disasters and most of the time, it's not the actors fault, the directors, or script just isn't up to par and you get situations where people just aren't having it. I feel if they find the right actor 9?one who wants to be a proper successor and follow in Chad's doorstep and path of elevation, I think it will be fine and can have great success, maybe not BP 1 numbers (hell even with Chad that would be difficult to copy, however, I think the film will still do straight fire numbers

I think so too. Losing Chad was a heart breaker no doubt but I think that they have to carry on with T'Challa as BP and do a recast. It would be alot worse to lose both Chad and T'Challa.

I think with those listed, it depends on the directors as well, of they change actors playing the main character then completely change the direction as well for where they are going, you can end up with disasters and most of the time, it's not the actors fault, the directors, or script just isn't up to par and you get situations where people just aren't having it. I feel if they find the right actor 9?one who wants to be a proper successor and follow in Chad's doorstep and path of elevation, I think it will be fine and can have great success, maybe not BP 1 numbers (hell even with Chad that would be difficult to copy, however, I think the film will still do straight fire numbers

I think so too. Losing Chad was a heart breaker no doubt but I think that they have to carry on with T'Challa as BP and do a recast. It would be alot worse to lose both Chad and T'Challa.


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Offline Ture

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Re: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Black Panther 2 *RESIST THE A.G.E.N.D.A. *
« Reply #3254 on: September 24, 2020, 08:37:57 pm »
The basic, professed definition of feminism that I've heard, that it simply means equality of the sexes, that definition I have no problem with, which would make me, I suppose a feminist. However, in practice, feminism has been something much different, and then black feminism has too often been about black male bashing and the 'ascension' of black females at the expense of black males and I would also argue the whole black community.

I looked at the video and while I admire the man's passion, I take some issues with his reasoning. When it comes to Thor, he's already been pushed to the side. He's not even the King of Asgard anymore (Valkyrie is) and it appears Jane will be the new Thor in Love & Thunder, which also follows the comics. I've heard that Hemsworth is not necessarily pleased by that and he still seems to be fighting to stay in the MCU and to stay relevant, but they've been slowly going at his character, perhaps starting with Ragnarok and definitely with fat Thor in Endgame. It's just that Hemsworth has good comic timing as Thor and was very game and so we all laughed along while his character was being diminished and set up to be given the heave ho.

As for Captain Marvel, they already have grown up Monica (Teyonah Parris), and the only thing right now that would prevent them from putting Monica over Carol if some unfortunate tragedy struck is Monica's (Parris's) skin color. But the idea that they wouldn't change Captain Marvel is one I don't believe. That film made a billion dollars, but IMO, the character didn't 'go over' like the MCU hoped, largely because Brie Larson appears to be a lightning rod on the internet, and she riles the alt-right, Men's Rights, crowd in ways that perhaps T'Challa triggers some feminists.

T'Challa is an important character in the comics and the MCU, however, and this is heresy here, he's not as important as Iron Man in reality. And that's largely because of skin color. Iron Man has had bigger, more well-known stories, he's been integrated and integral to a lot more of the major storylines throughout Marvel's history than T'Challa, and within the MCU, he was the heart of it. The runaway success of the first Iron Man film sold the idea of the MCU to millions. We don't get Coogler's Black Panther without Favreau's Iron Man.

I think sometimes as fans, black fans, and black fans of T'Challa, our dreams, our wishes override the reality. For me, I try to keep in mind that T'challa belongs to them (Marvel, Disney) and not to us. He and his world might come close to a being a black (power) fantasy but he is a white creation and is or can be guided by white minds and hands. And they'll do with the character-within the comics or the films-what they wish. If they think recasting will get them the most money, they'll do that. If they go with Shuri, Okoye, or Nakia as the new Panther because they think that will get them more money, they'll do that. I think both are valid options. However, I think circumstances have unfortunately set up Shuri, or another successor, taking the reins more organically than shoving T'Challa aside after the second or third movie, or doing something else to diminish or sideline him in his own movie. As I said before, those things can still happen even with a recast.

Afakan people (so called Black men and Black women) need to divorce themselves from ideologies intended to cause divisiveness among them.

The problem has never been the skin color of Afrakan people but the hatred and evil in the hearts, minds and behaviors of some people. A Black Panther film was in talks prior to Iron Man and would never need Iron Man in order to be released or successful. Just compare the numbers. Iron Man 1 to Black Panther 1... no question who the winner was there, not to mention that if Black Panther's solo came out in 2008 it would have had a very similar box office success and cultural impact. Iron Man 3 like Captain Marvel hit the billion dollar mark due to following major Avengers films not the case for Black Panther. Not to mention Black Panther was with Iron Man in Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame. Respectfully so, Iron Man is without a doubt the heart of the MCU but Black Panther is most certainly its soul.

The Black Panther is an intellectual property owned Marvel/Disney. This however does not prevent the creative input, contributions and the various organizing events of his fan base nor does it diminish their voice when they speak with their dollars. Star Trek and its Trekkers is a good example of such. Marvel knows and respects this. After the Star Wars debacle Disney is now keenly aware of such.

Marvel/Disney is in the business of profiting from various forms of entertainment and to be fair they responded to criticisms by hiring some of the best Afrakan (so called Black people) to deliver what is arguably the most culturally relevant film of our time. 

Our dream of an Afrakan, Black superhero is not only exactly what Chadwick Boseman was working for but something he achieved for us in his all too brief life time. Chadwick Boseman cannot be faulted for for his unfortunate passing and T'Challa should not be penalized for that tragic event.


I donít think comparing Iron Man I to Black Panther I is a fair comparison because Iron Man jumpstarted the MCU while Black Panther was the umpteenth film in the franchise, and the film preceding the epic Infinity War. And while Black Panther might have been in Ďtalksí prior to Iron Man I, that film was not made until well into the MCU, after Guardians of the Galaxy, after one of the Marvel honchos (canít remember which one) caused some internet consternation for being able to wrap his head around a talking raccoon more easily than bringing Wakanda into live-action.

We canít look back in time and say with any certainty how a Black Panther film, in 2008, with a black director, screen writer, and cast wouldíve done. If it wouldíve done Iron Man numbers, or even Blade Trinity numbers. When you consider what black superhero/comic book films had come before, thereís no real strong history there to say it wouldíve done Blade I/II or Catwoman numbers even, much less Iron Man I. Granted, a 2008 film might have benefitted from Obamamania, but we just donít know, nor can we say even if it had been buoyed by Obamamania that it wouldíve been a billion dollar film-certainly-or reached Iron Man I numbers or popularity. Black Panther shattered a lot of perceived notions about black-led films, but in 2008, those perceptions were stronger and wouldíve factored into the making of the film, the expectations wouldíve been lower in Hollywood for it, and it wouldíve debuted to an audience not as primed to see just about any MCU content. I canít even say as many black moviegoers wouldíve been as on board as they were by 2018, after countless MCU films by that time.

While Marvel/Disney owns Black Panther, fans very much have a voice, and a vote, with their wallets. Fans are integral in spreading the word and excitement on the internet, and other places, about these films and characters, and it makes good business sense to have fans on your side, as Disney has had to learn the hard way when it comes to Star Wars, and even CBS is feeling some pain right now-though itís trying to ameliorate that-with Star Trek. That being said, our concerns about the comic book deconstruction of TíChalla have mostly fallen on deaf ears at Marvel and Coates seems not to be getting the heave ho and was allowed to finish his Ďepicí run. Further, fan griping isnít stopping the MCU ĎSJWí agenda, though on the other side, there are also fans who are pushing for that, so Marvel/Disney might feel caught in a bind there. I do think we should speak out and make our voices heard about TíChalla and the Black Panther franchise-in movies and in comics-whether they listen or not. But for me, I must also be prepared to walk from BP if Marvel/Disney goes in a direction I think is detrimental not just to the character but to black people in the real world.

Iím not faulting Mr. Boseman for dying. How could I, or why would I do such a thing? But his untimely passing is forcing Disney to make some decisions that they wouldnít have to make otherwise. Whatever they choose I hope the next film exceeds even the first in many respects.


We can compare Iron Man 3 to Black Panther and it will yield the same results. As for a Black Panther film being released in 2008, with a "black" director, a "black" screen writer, and a predominately "black" cast after the election of the first "black" president... whoa, just whoa. No way we would have seen Iron Man 1 numbers let alone Blade one or two. Catwoman is just downright insulting.

Coates came into the Black Panther's world with unprecedented prestige and promotion. He also brought an agenda that wasn't the best fit for the world of Wakanda nor the Black Panther. It took a while but he is off the book and we helped accomplish this. As for the so called SJWs, Marvel listened to the long time fans and enthusiasts of BP and got more than their monies worth.

Quote
But for me, I must also be prepared to walk from BP if Marvel/Disney goes in a direction I think is detrimental not just to the character but to black people in the real world.

Agreed and don't think we will be the only ones... believe that.

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