Author Topic: BLACK PANTHER MEDIA - Recast or The Two Killings of T'Challa the Black Panther  (Read 618455 times)

Offline A.Curry

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Marvel Wonít Recast Black Panther; Plots ĎFantastic Fourí Reboot; Casts Christian Bale in ĎThor 4í

http://variety.com/2020/film/news/marvel-black-panther-fantastic-four-reboot-casts-christian-bale-thor-4-1234851345/[/

Definitely agree with a lot of what you're saying here. Any comic book character, most especially those that have been around for decades, are 'bigger' than the actors who play them, even those who give what many might consider definitive performances like Boseman, Christopher Reeve, or Wesley Snipes.

The issue you had with how T'Challa was made sort of unnecessary in his film was one I had as well. I thought T'Challa had a better outing in Civil War. He was formidable, relentless, and cunning. But in his own film he often had to share space or take a backseat to other characters in ways that made his character less important to the goings on. In Civil War he got to be one of those dynamic characters and perhaps got such a role in order to sell him to the audience. But in his own film, it's like they wanted to also sell the supporting cast and Wakanda, the idea and the nation. I'm just glad they twisted the story back around by the end to make it where only T'Challa could defeat Killmonger.

When I was looking at Fiege going over all the upcoming MCU stuff what he said about Mr. Boseman's take on the character, as surpassing (my words) all over versions didn't sit well with me. No disrespect to Boseman, but I liked Priest and Hudlin's takes on the characters, especially the Machiavellian Panther of Priest's run, a lot more than the MCU depiction. Though I imagine that millions around the world were first introduced to the character through Boseman and the BP film, that alone, as well as its popular doesn't supersede the other takes on the character IMO. Cloaking the decision to not recast in that kind of language is a bit suspect to me, even though I get it, and have argued for not recasting myself to honor what Boseman brought to the role and perhaps to teach a lesson to all of the young BP viewers about the fragility of life. But I've never thought that Boseman's take was the definitive one. As much as I love Christopher Reeve's Superman, I can't even say his is the definitive one, though I definitely love what he did. In time I've come to accept most of the others who put on the cape and I also think in time many can also do the same if T'Challa was recast.

The big issue here is though is that black characters don't get those kind of second and third chances much, and so I can understand the trepidation that not recasting T'Challa might mean him being sidelined for a long time or written all the way out of his own franchises.


Totally agree about TChalla in Civil War vs the Black Panther movie...its the main reason why the film is not as great to me as some made it out to be...the main protagonist pretty much was the most uninteresting and uninspiring character in it.  Itís the reason why Iíve never watched it again since it was in theaters.  And all due respect to Boseman, but I donít think his take was that definitive and another actor might even do better.  I think the only reason they are so hard on that point now is because he died.  Not entirely his fault, they didnít give him much to do.

That being said, I was all for the recast as I was hoping they improved their take on TChalla and wouldíve loved to have seen JDW in the role.   But I figured this would happen and if youíve been paying attention, most writers of BP or Wakanda post Coates take very little interest in TChalla the character and moreso in Black Panther and Wakanda as a concept.  Thats why Mind of Shadowís observation on the BP boards at CBR makes sense.

And mark my words, if they go through with this Tchallaís days in the comics will be numbered as well.


Offline Emperorjones

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This forum really brought it home to me what replacing and not recasting T'Challa could mean for the comics, which I hadn't thought about. That is a definite concern.

I do think there was a lot of love for Chadwick Boseman's Panther due to Civil War and especially BP, before his untimely passing. I still remember the gasping in the mixed crowd I watched Infinity War with when he turned to dust. His death has taken his performance as T'Challa to another level, but reverence was there before.


Offline Ezyo

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My problem with the cw performance was that he didn't actually accomplish much at all. Yeh he looked badass but when you break it down, what did he actually do? Fail to kill Bucky like 3 times, got out into a headlock by hawkeye, and was the only one trying to actually kill anybody and failed.

Whereas he movie? Wrecks an entire trafficking crew at the start of the movie. Beats M'Baku and shoes his morality and forward thinking by still showing his defeated opponent Mercy and to think of his people. Wrecks klaw and crew, shredding cars like it's nothing.

Even against Erik in the warrior falls fight, he could of killed him twice had he chose to, despite being completely shook. When he was gone it was clear that only M'Baku was the only person who was even close to being able to challenge Erik and even he knew he wasn't the right direction for Wakanda and taking on Erik.

Yes he wasn't as much in Terminator mode (except probably during the car chase and he was savage there) but he actually was able to accomplish so much more and show just how deadly he was. And he was the only solo hero character who has killed his villain in an non-debatable clear cut victory without any assistance or the villain Killing themselves. I think honestly his supporting cast wasn't that over developed really, but marvel does such a poor job of developing a characters cast (see thor's warrior's 3) that their focus seemed like they overshadowed T'Challa when they didn't.

I think at this point they are rushing the sequel. If the took a minute and actually delayed the movie (especially since Letitias recent tweets) and waited till says 2022 to start filming, it would give time to pass for a recast to not be such an unimaginable option and the guise of honoring Chad wouldn't be an excuse anymore.

My hope is that the sequel doesn't mention T'Challa is dead and rather he is away, so that they can ultimately have him return to continue his story in the 3rd movie. Or better yet, just have this movie take place between either the 2 year gap between the solo and IW or during the 5 year gap

Offline Mad Coco G

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I donít agree with the decision to not recast to bench the character but it is what it is, I donít have much enthusiasm for the sequel and Iíll have the feeling of ďwhy botherĒ when the new comic series starts as TíChalla will never rise above the comic page

Offline Ture

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No recast is a major loss all way round. There will be no See Wakanda and Die. No Enemy of the State. In MCU continuity that means T'Challa doesn't get to meet the Fantastic Four. No cross over with X Men and thus no relationship with Storm. Well I guess we will see just how much the world loves Shuri, Okoye and Nakia.

The idea of spin-offs is premature and antithetical to me as I feel that the Black Panther franchise should stay singularly focused on an ongoing comic book; solo feature films and an animated series all centered around T'Challa the Black Panther. Why? Because he needs time to further mature and express himself in the organic manner from which he was introduced by Lee and Kirby and in the cultural centeredness that Priest and Hudlin used to sustain him. This requires the consistent immersion of supporting characters for perpetual narrative unicity.

Unlike Batman, the Black Panther does not have eight decades in which he was the singular focus thus allowing for the growing pains necessary for true character development of both the central protagonist and his supporting role players. He is not Harry Potter whom was written by a single person, his creatress no less, which provided an evolving comprehensive cohesion of narrative and immutable and defining character traits. This is why it is so ridiculous not to recast. T'Challa's story was just beginning.

Coogler's sincerity was abundantly clear. He put together a very honest film and that is what came across to millions of moviegoers. He helped to create a very moving and unique iteration of T'Challa the Black Panther. He gave T'Challa a loving family, a romantic interest and a beautiful home... sounds almost Disney-esque. Let's be clear this was not Priest Black Panther nor one I would have done in exactly that manner.

I don't find an argument with Black Panther being T'Challa's story, his movie and yes his franchise. While one of his pertinent skill sets were transplanted to another character, everything was centered around T'Challa the Black Panther. Shuri was T'Challa's sister; Killmonger was T'Challa's enemy; Nakia was T'Challa's love interest; Okoye was T'Challa's general and Wakanda was T'Challa's home. No other way to cut it. There is or was so much to build upon.

Iron Man got three solo films and primary roles in four Avengers films; was the main antagonist in a Captain America film; and had a prominent outing in the first Spider-man movie and was hero worshiped in the second. Same basically applies to Cap and Thor sans the Spidey movies. And yet none of their solo films had greater cultural impact nor made as much at the box office as Black Panther. T'Challa  proved himself in a very big way on his first solo outing and yet somehow he's superfluous? Really, not really. The push to replace T'Challa has little to nothing to do with any supporting character being bigger than T'Challa.

Other super heroes have had far worst done to them than the migration of some of their talents to their supporting cast. Nolan's Batman trilogy is a good example of the gutting a character. Batman didn't show any complex fighting abilities; no detective skills nor escape artistry; no master of disguise nor tactical or strategic acumen. He was basically a brute and the Joker told him such. Lets again be clear, Ledger's Joker simply outclassed Batman while Jordan's Killmonger simply held a righteous indignation over T'Challa's head. And yet there is no cry for the non-necessity of Bruce Wayne aka the Batman. He just keeps getting recast and having different iterations presented.

Its like T'Challa is being penalized for having well developed three dimensional supporting characters that didn't rely on gimmicks or sex to prove their worth. Again to show who was the center piece let look at the following. Shuri's BP suit while having the advantage of easy storage and kinetic energy discharge was easily disrupted by sonic stabilizers due to its nanite design. T'Challa's design may not have this vulnerability. Not to mention T'Challa figured out that design flaw not Shuri.

Okoye could be the greatest warrior while T'Challa was thought to be dead by Nakia. However what we saw was Okoye and three Dora Milaje loose their fight with Killmonger as did the Nakia and Shuri tag team. It was T'Challa who beat Killmonger by himself. As far as activism is concerned, it was T'Challa who bought the buildings in Oakland to set up the tech exchange and social outreach. And again it was T'Challa who spoke before the world assembly at the UN on global unity. This is the genius of Coogler's Black Panther... its subtlety.

The debilitating aspects of T'Challa the Black Panther that often go unmentioned occurred in Civil War and Infinity War. It was in these two films where we see T'Challa's ineffectiveness as protector and poor judgement as a king. The former resulted in King T'Caka's death not to mention the capture and release of Zemo ... the man responsible. The latter sees Wakanda being invaded by a hoard of aliens. What kind of king invites a galactic threat to his doorstep and jeopardizes his people and their nation to save an android's personality?

All in all this is par for the course with the Black Panther. Whether comic book or movie there is usually some incident to hamper his trajectory and retard his momentum. And like the true super heroic, genius king he is, he somehow manages to get back on track and amaze us. T'Challa the Black Panther has done it time and time before and I believe he will continue to do so in the future.

T'Challa is the Black Panther... Forever. Nuff said.
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Offline MindofShadow

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This forum really brought it home to me what replacing and not recasting T'Challa could mean for the comics, which I hadn't thought about. That is a definite concern.

MCU gave T'challa plot protection. He is the only black male hero that is beholden to no other character. They coudln't kill him off... it would look horrible. He just got popular in the main stream and it was the perfect time to keep him in the comics.

Without the MCU... why keep him around really? Why put effort into his comics? I think the comics will wait until they get wind of the plan in the MCU (is shuri taking the mantle or not?) and they will adjust accordingly.

And when they adjust, I don't see T'challa staying around. Black Panther by Vita Ayala just sounds like somethign marvel will do.

T'challa as his MCU peak still coudln't get pushed in video games. While Carol was showing up in commercials, T'challa was a DLC. AT HIS BILLION DOLLAR PEAK!

Why focus on him at all if they can just reskin to Shuri and move on?

Minorities always have to do "more" to get the same respect and T'challa's "more" wasn't long enough to make a dent into anything.

Offline A.Curry

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I don't find an argument with Black Panther being T'Challa's story, his movie and yes his franchise. While one of his pertinent skill sets were transplanted to another character, everything was centered around T'Challa the Black Panther. Shuri was T'Challa's sister; Killmonger was T'Challa's enemy; Nakia was T'Challa's love interest; Okoye was T'Challa's general and Wakanda was T'Challa's home. No other way to cut it. There is or was so much to build upon.

Shuri wasnít just TíChallaís sister, she was also Wakandaís lead scientist in tech and was made responsible for most of if not all of Wakandaís advances. Also the one who designed his suit and was made to look like she knew more about handling it than he did. Okoye wasnít just his general, she was made to look like she was his teacher by guiding him in ways (donít freeze) and having nearly as much on screen fighting and action as he did. And Wakanda isnít JUST TíChallaís home, itís all of their home...even Killmongerís by right of royal decree being part of the actual family. Youíre right, there is so much to build upon that doesnít necessarily need TíChalla to do so because all of these other characters have so much to work with without him. Which is exactly what the MCU is going forward with.

Iron Man got three solo films and primary roles in four Avengers films; was the main antagonist in a Captain America film; and had a prominent outing in the first Spider-man movie and was hero worshiped in the second. Same basically applies to Cap and Thor sans the Spidey movies. And yet none of their solo films had greater cultural impact nor made as much at the box office as Black Panther. T'Challa  proved himself in a very big way on his first solo outing and yet somehow he's superfluous? Really, not really. The push to replace T'Challa has little to nothing to do with any supporting character being bigger than T'Challa.

of course the movie had a greater cultural impact overall because the movie was as much about an entire advanced African nation and itís people than it was about the protagonist. ďWakanda foreverĒ isnít about TíChalla, itís about the entire nation and all in it. Black women particularly, and people in general, went to see characters like Shuri and the Dora Milaje just as much, if not moreso, than they went to see TíChalla.  Iron Man focused on Iron Man, he didnít have his little sister responsible for his suit or all of the tech in Stark Industries, or lecturing him on how ďeverything can be improvedĒ. He didnít have a cabal of warriors and a general who was fighting and in the action almost as much as he was. Black Panther was as much about the surrounding family and characters and nation as it was about TíChalla when it should have been the other way around. Which is why they feel they can make the next movie without him. No one wouldíve made ďIron Man 2Ē without Tony Stark.  Yet they feel these other characters can carry the movie without TíChalla because Wakanda, with or without TíChalla, is still of interest. How does that not make him superfluous?



Other super heroes have had far worst done to them than the migration of some of their talents to their supporting cast. Nolan's Batman trilogy is a good example of the gutting a character. Batman didn't show any complex fighting abilities; no detective skills nor escape artistry; no master of disguise nor tactical or strategic acumen. He was basically a brute and the Joker told him such. Lets again be clear, Ledger's Joker simply outclassed Batman while Jordan's Killmonger simply held a righteous indignation over T'Challa's head. And yet there is no cry for the non-necessity of Bruce Wayne aka the Batman. He just keeps getting recast and having different iterations presented.

As youíve stated before, Batman has had decades of development and advances in his storytelling in movies, cartoons, and comics, so a weak showing by him doesnít hurt as much, but in the end he was still the focus of heroism in the Nolan movies.  Outside of the villains, he didnít share as much time with supporting characters that were as dynamic and colorful and skilled as everyone from Shuri to the Doras to Okoye to Nakia was. Gordon and Lucius were not a part of the action in the ways those characters were.  I agree that Batman in the Nolan trilogy was a weak Batman, but he was still the focus.  Plus, Batman at this point is Batman.  The world outside of the comics was just getting to know TíChalla 

Its like T'Challa is being penalized for having well developed three dimensional supporting characters that didn't rely on gimmicks or sex to prove their worth. Again to show who was the center piece let look at the following. Shuri's BP suit while having the advantage of easy storage and kinetic energy discharge was easily disrupted by sonic stabilizers due to its nanite design. T'Challa's design may not have this vulnerability. Not to mention T'Challa figured out that design flaw not Shuri.

TíChalla isnít being penalized for this, the makers of the movie are. And in the end, it doesnít matter if TíChalla figured out a design flaw in Shuriís BP suit in a singular moment in the movie...the over arching theme is that she invented the suit and she is responsible for the advances in tech in Wakanda, not TíChalla.  TíChallaís design ďmay notĒ have had this design flaw but we never got to see that.  Of course, none of this would matter if it was shown that TíChalla himself invented the BP suit and was the one majorly responsible for the recent advances in tech in Wakanda. No one is arguing with Stark about his suit because he and he alone invented it and evolved it.  This is made very clear in his movies.

Okoye could be the greatest warrior while T'Challa was thought to be dead by Nakia. However what we saw was Okoye and three Dora Milaje loose their fight with Killmonger as did the Nakia and Shuri tag team. It was T'Challa who beat Killmonger by himself. As far as activism is concerned, it was T'Challa who bought the buildings in Oakland to set up the tech exchange and social outreach. And again it was T'Challa who spoke before the world assembly at the UN on global unity. This is the genius of Coogler's Black Panther... its subtlety.

Didnít Shuri help TíChalla in his fight with Killmonger by starting the trains up or something like that?  I remember him telling her to turn something on during the fight.  And yes, TíChalla bought the buildings in Oakland and set these things up after being shamed by Nakia for not doing more and as a reaction to what his father did to Killmonger. The character is reacting to what others are showing him when he should already be informed and acting on these things due to his awareness and intelligence about the world.


The debilitating aspects of T'Challa the Black Panther that often go unmentioned occurred in Civil War and Infinity War. It was in these two films where we see T'Challa's ineffectiveness as protector and poor judgement as a king. The former resulted in King T'Caka's death not to mention the capture and release of Zemo ... the man responsible. The latter sees Wakanda being invaded by a hoard of aliens. What kind of king invites a galactic threat to his doorstep and jeopardizes his people and their nation to save an android's personality?

Have to agree with you on most of this, but I think the overall thing in those movies is that he ďlooked coolĒ and was not outshined in any way by his supporting cast, especially in Civil War, since they were not yet present.


Offline A.Curry

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My problem with the cw performance was that he didn't actually accomplish much at all. Yeh he looked badass but when you break it down, what did he actually do? Fail to kill Bucky like 3 times, got out into a headlock by hawkeye, and was the only one trying to actually kill anybody and failed.

Whereas he movie? Wrecks an entire trafficking crew at the start of the movie. Beats M'Baku and shoes his morality and forward thinking by still showing his defeated opponent Mercy and to think of his people. Wrecks klaw and crew, shredding cars like it's nothing.

I have to say, I was never that much impressed with him breaking up a bunch of traffickers in that opening scene.  Nakia was already planning to do that and likely couldíve done it on her own.  Theyíre just...traffickers. Thugs.  Capís opening scene in Winter Soldier, for instance. Taking out a ship full of hydra agents and then beating down Batroc intentionally without his shield made for a much cooler scene.  And he had Shuriís and Okoyeís help in taking down Klaw. Thatís the scene where she had to instruct him on releasing the energy from his suit. Again, the argument isnít that he didnít do anything in the movie, itís that his supporting cast did almost just as much and got nearly equal shine, in some ways arguably more

Even against Erik in the warrior falls fight, he could of killed him twice had he chose to, despite being completely shook. When he was gone it was clear that only M'Baku was the only person who was even close to being able to challenge Erik and even he knew he wasn't the right direction for Wakanda and taking on Erik.

I donít see what this has to do with anything.  The point is these other characters had prescence and even if MíBaku knew he wasnít the right way to go in defeating Killmonger, the fact is he likely could have.  Thatís not including that Killmonger just walked in and took over Wakanda as easily as he did.

Yes he wasn't as much in Terminator mode (except probably during the car chase and he was savage there) but he actually was able to accomplish so much more and show just how deadly he was. And he was the only solo hero character who has killed his villain in an non-debatable clear cut victory without any assistance or the villain Killing themselves. I think honestly his supporting cast wasn't that over developed really, but marvel does such a poor job of developing a characters cast (see thor's warrior's 3) that their focus seemed like they overshadowed T'Challa when they didn't.

again, all of this is notable, but it doesnít take away the fact that even you say it ďseemedĒ like the supporting characters in BP overshadowed the main protagonist.  Most fans of the movie views it with less scrutiny, and to them the other characters were just as notable as BP was.  If TíChalla was this important overall to them and the franchise, they would just recast.  But the arguments have been more about Bosemanís performance as TíChalla, not TíChalla himself!  And thereís more arguments for Shuri taking over than recasting him.  Thereís even arguments for Killmonger coming back from the dead and taking the mantle.  TíChalla should have been made important enough where none of these arguments would hold weight.  And they obviously think thereís enough to work with in the next movie without TíChalla.  This shouldnít be the case

I think at this point they are rushing the sequel. If the took a minute and actually delayed the movie (especially since Letitias recent tweets) and waited till says 2022 to start filming, it would give time to pass for a recast to not be such an unimaginable option and the guise of honoring Chad wouldn't be an excuse anymore.

yeah, Iíd rather they do this.  But a lot of people are for passing the mantle to Shuri and letting TíChalla die with Boseman. What does that tell you about the overall importance of TíChalla to the franchise to them?


Offline Ture

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When I say Shuri was T'Challa's sister it goes beyond the biological ties of the narrative to the point that she was introduced through T'Challa. It was his space she was birthed into. Her identity was established through him. The same would apply for all the supporting characters. The movie (along with the comic books, cartoons and merchandise) is titled Black Panther after T'Challa. If MCU Shuri gets the mantle it is again through the auspices of her brother.

Shuri is not responsible for most of if not all of Wakandaís advances. She isn't old enough. For example her father, T'Chaka, was using the Kimoyo beads and flying in a cloaked ship in 1990 both of which occurred at a time that T'Challa was a young boy. What she has demonstrated was an ability to update or "improve on existing Wakandan tech. Shuri knowing more about the handling of the suit she designed makes sense particularly since MCU T'Challa may not be the polymath his comic book iteration is.

I think your inference with Okoye is overstated. T'Challa and Okoye have a close enough relationship in which she could tease him about his affections for Nakia. Okoye having as much on screen fighting as T'Challa makes sense as she is commander of the militaristic Dora Milaje. Comparing the two, T'Challa took out as many opponents if not more without a weapon in the casino and he defeated Killmonger who bested her and three others under her command. T'Challa is bad... T'Challa is dangerous.

Again Wakanda is his home because it along with everything else was constructed to support T'Challa the Black Panther. If going forward for the next film they choose to mitigate T'Challa's presence and influence be it because of Chadwick Boseman's death or the A.G.E.N.D.A. I doubt they will find equal success. T'Challa will not stay dead for long. A decade or even less from now a reboot will once again reestablish T'Challa the Black Panther, the King of Wakanda as the driving force behind the franchise he built.

When I speak of cultural impact I liken Black Panther to Star Wars via characters recognition, viral catchphrases, media dominance and global recognition. Afrakan men and women the world over in particular, and the global community in general, went to see the Black Panther who happens to be T'Challa and were overwhelmed by the presentation and representation that it offered without the stereotypes and dated cliches. The audience was delighted with an ensemble cast of characters headed by the eponymous hero.

With regards to Iron Man... Stark needed eleven year old Harley's help with gathering needed supplies for his armor and had Pepper Potts lecture him about how to run Stark Enterprises. Stark needed Dr. Ho Yinsen's help to build the first armor and needed Pepper Potts to overload the Arc Reactor to kill Stane. Stark again needed Pepper Potts to rescue him from Aldrich Killian just before Killian was about to kill him. Stark even had Rhodey's assistance to defeat Whiplash. Not to mention the assist from Happy Hogan in delivering the armor; guest appearances by Nick Fury and Black Widow. So apparently Stark has his own makeshift, ragtag cabal.

While I'll agree that Marvel would not have made Iron Man 2 without Stark they could have if pressure from the WOKE was present at the same level it was during Black Panther and Robert Downey Jr had a relapse or died. To preserve Downey's legacy the A.G.E.N.D.A. would have demanded Pepper Potts as Rescue because it happened in the comics or insist on Riri taking over the armor responsibilities because its time for a sister of color to be seen as a tech genius. In the latter scenario Riri would be analogous to Shuri. Go figure.

I can roll with you somewhat on the Batman tip. Like T'Challa, Bruce Wayne was not responsible for any of his tech. Black Panther's Shuri to Batman's Lucius Fox. Where is the outcry? The thing with the suit is while Shuri did in fact create it, T'Challa used his skills to defeat Killmonger not her suit. He defeated M'Baku without the suit or the herb. Black Panther and Batman parallel as both have well developed supporting characters and immersive environs centered around the titular hero. BP2 is akin to the Joker movie or TV series Pennyworth, Batwoman and maybe a little Gotham in expanding the world of their respective lead super hero.Think of it as T'Challa taking a well deserved rest and coming back better than ever in the not too distant future.
 
"Didnít Shuri help TíChalla in his fight with Killmonger by starting the trains up or something like that? " She sure did as per his instruction. T'Challa wasn't shamed by Nakia. He found her reasoning sound. However for thousands of years Wakanda prospered while the rest of the world sank further into chaos.

It was under T'Chaka's reign that Klaw set off an explosion at the boarder killing Wakandans and stealing a ton of vibranium. When T'Chaka sent Wakandans to Kenya they were killed. When T'Chaka decided to tell the world Wakanda would not stand on the sidelines he was killed in an explosion at a United Nations summit in Vienna. When T'Challa decided to help Cap he wound up inviting a galactic army to his boarder at the cost of the lives of many Wakandan soldiers.

More damage was done to the nation of Wakanda during the reign of T'Chaka and T'Challa than any other time in the nation's whole history. Maybe Nakia needs to rethink her position about how to help the world because T'Challa certainly does.
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Offline Ezyo

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I have to say, I was never that much impressed with him breaking up a bunch of traffickers in that opening scene.  Nakia was already planning to do that and likely couldíve done it on her own.  Theyíre just...traffickers. Thugs.  Capís opening scene in Winter Soldier, for instance. Taking out a ship full of hydra agents and then beating down Batroc intentionally without his shield made for a much cooler scene.  And he had Shuriís and Okoyeís help in taking down Klaw. Thatís the scene where she had to instruct him on releasing the energy from his suit. Again, the argument isnít that he didnít do anything in the movie, itís that his supporting cast did almost just as much and got nearly equal shine, in some ways arguably more

He straight up shreds through the traffickers with ease, after dropping 100+ feet out of a jet free falling AND perfectly throws emp beads on to moving cars below him. There's no guarantee that Nakia could of taken them all solo.. at all. She was a spy, they aren one man armies she was undercover most likely she would of tried to get the victim's out with as little fighting as possible. Also bartroc was just a normal guy too, look at how he did every time he faced Bucky in the final fight he was begging Bucky to come back whole getting his face punched in. Look up on YouTube T'Challa vs Erik final fight with health bars, you will see just how much a focused T'Challa outclassed Erik solo (yes he beat him solo, all he told Shuri to do was turn on the train, he knew exactly what he was doing as he solod Erik in an unarguable victory

You mention Okoye instructing T'Challa like his mentor... That's not true, she wasn't instructing him. Like he needed a reminder on how to fight, she was specifically telling him not to freeze when he saw he ex girlfriend who both still had feelings for. It had nothing to do with fighting and more casual hence why Shuri asked if he froze when he saw Nakia. I thought that was pretty obvious.

T'Challa took out klaw solo, yes Shuri was driving the car, Okoye took out one car and then got taken out by klaw. T'Challa took out 4 cars including klaws and he did that while jumping from his car to theirs. She didn't instruction him on how to use the suit Because he already knew how the suit worked as shown in the lab scene.


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I donít see what this has to do with anything.  The point is these other characters had prescence and even if MíBaku knew he wasnít the right way to go in defeating Killmonger, the fact is he likely could have.  Thatís not including that Killmonger just walked in and took over Wakanda as easily as he did.

Yes he wins the warrior falls fight, but T'Challa wasn't trying to kill him because he felt guilty about what his father did to his uncle and how that effected his cousin. Twice he could of died. Had he been focused Erik would of died. M'Baku knew he didn't have what it took to best Erik. He straight up lost to T'Challa, he was probably shook. Otherwise he would of taken the HSH.

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again, all of this is notable, but it doesnít take away the fact that even you say it ďseemedĒ like the supporting characters in BP overshadowed the main protagonist.  Most fans of the movie views it with less scrutiny, and to them the other characters were just as notable as BP was.  If TíChalla was this important overall to them and the franchise, they would just recast.  But the arguments have been more about Bosemanís performance as TíChalla, not TíChalla himself!  And thereís more arguments for Shuri taking over than recasting him.  Thereís even arguments for Killmonger coming back from the dead and taking the mantle.  TíChalla should have been made important enough where none of these arguments would hold weight.  And they obviously think thereís enough to work with in the next movie without TíChalla.  This shouldnít be the case

In cw Cap was one of the least interesting characters of you looked at popularity polls. Again it's alot easier to grab and steal spotlight when your only getting maybe 10 minutes of screen time. When your tasked with carrying a movie Nakia Shuri, Okoye and even M'Baku would falter. They don't have any 3 dimensional depth or further agency past their specific niche. And when I said seemed I am saying that because again the less screen time you have, the more you csn make their shtick more exaggerated and over the top. But you then notice that all the times they shine bright is when they are with scenes with T'Challa. They aren't as capable as T'Challa. When your a warrior nation you got to be capable to some extent but notice how quickly they fell apart when T'Challa was gone. And when he comes back they feel that they can actually take back Wakanda. One man holds that much power.

Also with IW and EG in the movie theaters people we're going crazy and cheering when T'Challa showed up. Not Okoye, not Shuri. T'Challa. But even in the BP movie people recognized the nuance and many hats and how masterfully layered T'Challa was. How he seemlessly went from King, to brother, son, friend, lover, and hero.


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yeah, Iíd rather they do this.  But a lot of people are for passing the mantle to Shuri and letting TíChalla die with Boseman. What does that tell you about the overall importance of TíChalla to the franchise to them?

A for the whole push for Shuri to take the mantle? That was literally a thing people were saying the day the movie dropped. That was lased full of agenda. And up until Feiges announcement and even after, more people have been getting on the growing recast train. But people want to see T'Challas story continue. This is a rushing act Disney is doing that I think is a huge mistake that will bite them in the ass. Black panther made 1.3 billy and the center and cause of that is T'Challa.

This not recasting is directly tied to people not separating the actor from the character. On top of Black characters (Black men especially) getting sidelined or the like quite often.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 04:28:48 pm by Ezyo »

Offline Ezyo

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I think people re way too much into Nakias comment about Okoye being the greatest warrior in Wakanda (when T'Challa was assumed dead) when it's not even clear of she is because there is M'Baku as well. Okoye takes out what.
8 goons on the casino and car chase scene total and 1 trafficker? So 9 people throughout the entire movie.

 While T'Challa took out the score of traffickers, free falling and destroys their vehicles with a masterful throwing of emp beads.. at night. Then 4 vehicle's including klaws as well as the guys in the casino, M'Baku, scores of border tribe forces, a rhino, a two dragonflyers and Erik solo.. and somehow that translates to Okoye being as good or a better fighter then T'Challa?


 

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I think people re way too much into Nakias comment about Okoye being the greatest warrior in Wakanda (when T'Challa was assumed dead) when it's not even clear of she is because there is M'Baku as well. Okoye takes out what.
8 goons on the casino and car chase scene total and 1 trafficker? So 9 people throughout the entire movie.

 While T'Challa took out the score of traffickers, free falling and destroys their vehicles with a masterful throwing of emp beads.. at night. Then 4 vehicle's including klaws as well as the guys in the casino, M'Baku, scores of border tribe forces, a rhino, a two dragonflyers and Erik solo.. and somehow that translates to Okoye being as good or a better fighter then T'Challa?


 


Okoye didn't face and defeat Killmonger, and when she had the opportunity to engage him? She AND THE DORA MILAJE faced him down...losing one of their own in the process.  T'Challa faced multiple warriors of The Border Tribe, mecharhinos, and also killed KM in h2h. T'Challa is the greatest warrior in Wakanda. Period.

Also? I believe that Disney recasts T'Challa. I don't believe they won't recast T'Challa. If I were in their shoes? I'd definitely say that I wouldn't recast T'Challa NOW, because the scars and wounds of losing Chadwick, Kobe, and too many others [ including the wave of violence perpetrated against us by Whites like the death of Ahmaud Arberry, Floyd, Breonna, etc ] is way too fresh and horrific.

I would fall back on Marvel's  tradition of secrecy, let time pass, and recast Chadwick with Denzel's son. Especially because: Letitia can't carry a movie like BP 2. She lacks the physical and mental strength to do so. Lupita Nyongo...Nakia...also lacks the physical athleticism and the character bio to take over for the BP franchise. Danai Gurira...Okoye, Michonne...can't carry the whole movie either., although she's far more able to do so than either Letitia or Lupita. It doesn't make sense for her character ...Okoye...to seek the throne.  Idk if Marvel goes with Wright etc in BP 2 as the star but I doubt it. Very seriously.

I doubt KM comes into play, too. Resurrecting him DOES follow the comic canon but it ALSO ABSOLUTELY CRUSHES THE BEST AND MOST IMPACTFUL SINGLE SCENE IN ANY MARVEL HERO MOVIE except for maybe. Maybe. Iron Man's sacrifice of his life at the end of The Infinity Saga.

All roads seem to lead to bringing in JDW as Black Panther...maybe from the "Multiverse of Madness" we'll see in Doctor Strange. But all of this is very very difficult to swallow. The death of the great. Yes, the GREAT. Chadwick Bpseman before the arc of T'Challa could be entrusted to another actor is a gargantuan blow to the BP saga.

But I have a solution.

Bring in JDW not as T'Challa but as T'Challa's son from The Multiverse. Explanation? In BP 2, Shuri lets it be known that T'Challa wasn't brought back to Wakanda when everyone else was returned from The Snap. She used her unsurpassed genius to track clues of T'Challa throughout The Multiverse. Turns out? T'Challa was brought back to a MULTIVERSAL DIMENSION WAKANDA and lived his entire life in this new Wakanda, and had a child...

Perfect opportunity for Nick Fury and Old Man Cap to cameo and..in talks with Shuri and/or Ramonda... shed light on T'Challa's character from their perspectives. Cap would say that the man he saw run with The Infinity Gauntlet and toss it to Spider-Man? Would leave a trail across the multiverse itself for his loved ones to follow. Nick Fury? Could say that Captain Marvel told him that she found traces of Vibranium in the bodies of Kree and Skrulls but they somehow or other tracked both to Wakanda AND gave off a weird multiversal energy signature even for Vibranium. This? Would be the Vibranium that T'Challa Junior used to repel the Skrulls who invaded HIS Earth in the SECRET INVASION style we saw in the comics.  And? Let Shuri be the one who finds JDW's character via her adventures in BP 2. At the end of BP 2? She finds him. She says: "...T'Challa.."" and JDW turns around and says in Xhosa: "Yes, I am T'Challa. Hello, auntie." Or something much better than that.

BP 3? Tracks T'Challa JUNIOR through his trials and challenges as he does his walkabout etc and becomes the NEW Black Panther. Hell, he might further reconcile differing canons by combining aspects of ULTIMATE Black Panther with our beloved 616 BP. We need way more examples of BP's speed, agility, acrobatics, stealth, hunting prowess,etc. And we need to see him do better

Hell. If Florence Pugh can just up and take the mantle of Black Panther from Natasha after Natasha's character death? Then JDW can reinvigorate BP and T'Challa using the path that I suggested. And in that way? Marvel and Disney can LITERALLY keep their word. They DIDN'T recast T'CHALLA. They have T'Challa JUNIOR. And this gives them? The opportunity to flesh out the profile of BP more. Who's his BIRTH mother [ probably the Oroo/Storm of his dimension ]. What's T'Challa's LAST NAME? What SPECIFICALLY are his POWERS? Etc. etc.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 06:24:15 pm by supreme illuminati »
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When I say Shuri was T'Challa's sister it goes beyond the biological ties of the narrative to the point that she was introduced through T'Challa. It was his space she was birthed into. Her identity was established through him. The same would apply for all the supporting characters. The movie (along with the comic books, cartoons and merchandise) is titled Black Panther after T'Challa. If MCU Shuri gets the mantle it is again through the auspices of her brother.

Shuri is not responsible for most of if not all of Wakandaís advances. She isn't old enough. For example her father, T'Chaka, was using the Kimoyo beads and flying in a cloaked ship in 1990 both of which occurred at a time that T'Challa was a young boy. What she has demonstrated was an ability to update or "improve on existing Wakandan tech. Shuri knowing more about the handling of the suit she designed makes sense particularly since MCU T'Challa may not be the polymath his comic book iteration is.

I think your inference with Okoye is overstated. T'Challa and Okoye have a close enough relationship in which she could tease him about his affections for Nakia. Okoye having as much on screen fighting as T'Challa makes sense as she is commander of the militaristic Dora Milaje. Comparing the two, T'Challa took out as many opponents if not more without a weapon in the casino and he defeated Killmonger who bested her and three others under her command. T'Challa is bad... T'Challa is dangerous.

Again Wakanda is his home because it along with everything else was constructed to support T'Challa the Black Panther. If going forward for the next film they choose to mitigate T'Challa's presence and influence be it because of Chadwick Boseman's death or the A.G.E.N.D.A. I doubt they will find equal success. T'Challa will not stay dead for long. A decade or even less from now a reboot will once again reestablish T'Challa the Black Panther, the King of Wakanda as the driving force behind the franchise he built.

When I speak of cultural impact I liken Black Panther to Star Wars via characters recognition, viral catchphrases, media dominance and global recognition. Afrakan men and women the world over in particular, and the global community in general, went to see the Black Panther who happens to be T'Challa and were overwhelmed by the presentation and representation that it offered without the stereotypes and dated cliches. The audience was delighted with an ensemble cast of characters headed by the eponymous hero.

With regards to Iron Man... Stark needed eleven year old Harley's help with gathering needed supplies for his armor and had Pepper Potts lecture him about how to run Stark Enterprises. Stark needed Dr. Ho Yinsen's help to build the first armor and needed Pepper Potts to overload the Arc Reactor to kill Stane. Stark again needed Pepper Potts to rescue him from Aldrich Killian just before Killian was about to kill him. Stark even had Rhodey's assistance to defeat Whiplash. Not to mention the assist from Happy Hogan in delivering the armor; guest appearances by Nick Fury and Black Widow. So apparently Stark has his own makeshift, ragtag cabal.

While I'll agree that Marvel would not have made Iron Man 2 without Stark they could have if pressure from the WOKE was present at the same level it was during Black Panther and Robert Downey Jr had a relapse or died. To preserve Downey's legacy the A.G.E.N.D.A. would have demanded Pepper Potts as Rescue because it happened in the comics or insist on Riri taking over the armor responsibilities because its time for a sister of color to be seen as a tech genius. In the latter scenario Riri would be analogous to Shuri. Go figure.

I can roll with you somewhat on the Batman tip. Like T'Challa, Bruce Wayne was not responsible for any of his tech. Black Panther's Shuri to Batman's Lucius Fox. Where is the outcry? The thing with the suit is while Shuri did in fact create it, T'Challa used his skills to defeat Killmonger not her suit. He defeated M'Baku without the suit or the herb. Black Panther and Batman parallel as both have well developed supporting characters and immersive environs centered around the titular hero. BP2 is akin to the Joker movie or TV series Pennyworth, Batwoman and maybe a little Gotham in expanding the world of their respective lead super hero.Think of it as T'Challa taking a well deserved rest and coming back better than ever in the not too distant future.
 
"Didnít Shuri help TíChalla in his fight with Killmonger by starting the trains up or something like that? " She sure did as per his instruction. T'Challa wasn't shamed by Nakia. He found her reasoning sound. However for thousands of years Wakanda prospered while the rest of the world sank further into chaos.

It was under T'Chaka's reign that Klaw set off an explosion at the boarder killing Wakandans and stealing a ton of vibranium. When T'Chaka sent Wakandans to Kenya they were killed. When T'Chaka decided to tell the world Wakanda would not stand on the sidelines he was killed in an explosion at a United Nations summit in Vienna. When T'Challa decided to help Cap he wound up inviting a galactic army to his boarder at the cost of the lives of many Wakandan soldiers.

More damage was done to the nation of Wakanda during the reign of T'Chaka and T'Challa than any other time in the nation's whole history. Maybe Nakia needs to rethink her position about how to help the world because T'Challa certainly does.




And that up there^^^? Is all you need to know.
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Offline Ezyo

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I think people re way too much into Nakias comment about Okoye being the greatest warrior in Wakanda (when T'Challa was assumed dead) when it's not even clear of she is because there is M'Baku as well. Okoye takes out what.
8 goons on the casino and car chase scene total and 1 trafficker? So 9 people throughout the entire movie.

 While T'Challa took out the score of traffickers, free falling and destroys their vehicles with a masterful throwing of emp beads.. at night. Then 4 vehicle's including klaws as well as the guys in the casino, M'Baku, scores of border tribe forces, a rhino, a two dragonflyers and Erik solo.. and somehow that translates to Okoye being as good or a better fighter then T'Challa?


 



Okoye didn't face and defeat Killmonger, and when she had the opportunity to engage him? She AND THE DORA MILAJE faced him down...losing one of their own in the process.  T'Challa faced multiple warriors of The Border Tribe, mecharhinos, and also killed KM in h2h. T'Challa is the greatest warrior in Wakanda. Period.

Also? I believe that Disney recasts T'Challa. I don't believe they won't recast T'Challa. If I were in their shoes? I'd definitely say that I wouldn't recast T'Challa NOW, because the scars and wounds of losing Chadwick, Kobe, and too many others [ including the wave of violence perpetrated against us by Whites like the death of Ahmaud Arberry, Floyd, Breonna, etc ] is way too fresh and horrific.

I would fall back on Marvel's  tradition of secrecy, let time pass, and recast Chadwick with Denzel's son. Especially because: Letitia can't carry a movie like BP 2. She lacks the physical and mental strength to do so. Lupita Nyongo...Nakia...also lacks the physical athleticism and the character bio to take over for the BP franchise. Danai Gurira...Okoye, Michonne...can't carry the whole movie either., although she's far more able to do so than either Letitia or Lupita. It doesn't make sense for her character ...Okoye...to seek the throne.  Idk if Marvel goes with Wright etc in BP 2 as the star but I doubt it. Very seriously.

I doubt KM comes into play, too. Resurrecting him DOES follow the comic canon but it ALSO ABSOLUTELY CRUSHES THE BEST AND MOST IMPACTFUL SINGLE SCENE IN ANY MARVEL HERO MOVIE except for maybe. Maybe. Iron Man's sacrifice of his life at the end of The Infinity Saga.

All roads seem to lead to bringing in JDW as Black Panther...maybe from the "Multiverse of Madness" we'll see in Doctor Strange. But all of this is very very difficult to swallow. The death of the great. Yes, the GREAT. Chadwick Bpseman before the arc of T'Challa could be entrusted to another actor is a gargantuan blow to the BP saga.

But I have a solution.

Bring in JDW not as T'Challa but as T'Challa's son from The Multiverse. Explanation? In BP 2, Shuri lets it be known that T'Challa wasn't brought back to Wakanda when everyone else was returned from The Snap. She used her unsurpassed genius to track clues of T'Challa throughout The Multiverse. Turns out? T'Challa was brought back to a MULTIVERSAL DIMENSION WAKANDA and lived his entire life in this new Wakanda, and had a child...

Perfect opportunity for Nick Fury and Old Man Cap to cameo and..in talks with Shuri and/or Ramonda... shed light on T'Challa's character from their perspectives. Cap would say that the man he saw run with The Infinity Gauntlet and toss it to Spider-Man? Would leave a trail across the multiverse itself for his loved ones to follow. Nick Fury? Could say that Captain Marvel told him that she found traces of Vibranium in the bodies of Kree and Skrulls but they somehow or other tracked both to Wakanda AND gave off a weird multiversal energy signature even for Vibranium. This? Would be the Vibranium that T'Challa Junior used to repel the Skrulls who invaded HIS Earth in the SECRET INVASION style we saw in the comics.  And? Let Shuri be the one who finds JDW's character via her adventures in BP 2. At the end of BP 2? She finds him. She says: "...T'Challa.."" and JDW turns around and says in Xhosa: "Yes, I am T'Challa. Hello, auntie." Or something much better than that.

BP 3? Tracks T'Challa JUNIOR through his trials and challenges as he does his walkabout etc and becomes the NEW Black Panther. Hell, he might further reconcile differing canons by combining aspects of ULTIMATE Black Panther with our beloved 616 BP. We need way more examples of BP's speed, agility, acrobatics, stealth, hunting prowess,etc. And we need to see him do better

Hell. If Florence Pugh can just up and take the mantle of Black Panther from Natasha after Natasha's character death? Then JDW can reinvigorate BP and T'Challa using the path that I suggested. And in that way? Marvel and Disney can LITERALLY keep their word. They DIDN'T recast T'CHALLA. They have T'Challa JUNIOR. And this gives them? The opportunity to flesh out the profile of BP more. Who's his BIRTH mother [ probably the Oroo/Storm of his dimension ]. What's T'Challa's LAST NAME? What SPECIFICALLY are his POWERS? Etc. etc.


I don't want anyone coming and trying to take over the mantle before T'Challa, the REAL T'Challa s story is told. Marvel made a mistake, straight up, in  this announcement and I think it's going to bite them in the end

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Heres the thing, and don't take this the wrong way as in just explaining my own opinion.  It's like I said, there are people who don't understand, not truly, WHY Black Panther resonated so well. People read about or see images of kids and grown adults at the theater in tears when watching black panther and they don't fully grasp the magnitude of how important this franchise is to people if you haven't experienced it first hand what it's like to see yourself represented like that.

I remember as a kid I used to wish I was white sometimes just so that I could feel that same feeling my friends who were white felt when they saw Spiderman, Batman, superman, and pretty much any hero or just character in general doing cool sh*t who also looked like them.

When you have it all the time it's easy to, well take it for granted. I'm not a long time Black Panther fan, I actually didn't learn about the character till I was browsing online one day in 2014 and happened upon him and then started researching him. Instantly I was intrigued and immediately after reading his wiki page I started looking online for any Black Panther comics I could get my hands on to buy. I couldn't believe that such a character existed.

I became an instant fan. So while I haven't waited my entire life to see BP specifically on sense of following his comics, I have been waiting my entire life to see a character who is truly one I want to aspire to be like.

This is more than just seeing him go to war with atlantis or joining the Avengers, or interacting with certain characters. This is about seeing T'Challa the man who from his franchise comes from a fantastical place, change it for the better, he is a King among kings, a warrior among warriors the GOAT.

And it's about exploring this character, who has a ton of history and importance behind HIM, as he was the one who was holding his franchise together, now as a fan and a person who's waited for such a character, have that taken away.

First there's the tragedy of a truly wonderful person, I don't get star struck or really care to meet any celebrities but Chad was one of very few on my list, but then also by this idea that there can only be one Black person occupying a certain space. Chadwick talked about that, wanting to break that mindset. But now exactly what he was working hard to break has just happened.

The a Black male led franchise with the potential (we already seen what it can do) to hit Spiderman, Batman, Superman, and Bond  levels of success and household recognition, had had that very rare spot removed and it's going to try and split it between characters that frankly don't have any sort of weight behind them.

The one with the most, is M'Baku and he is nothing like his comic counterpart. They are trying to say Wakanda is bigger than T'Challa, he becomes a footnote in his own franchise while they try and make it work without any real Established.. anything to go off. Be it comics or even he MCU itself.

Every actor will always be compared to their predecessor when playing characters like T'Challa or Peter. That's just how it is, but at the same time none of these characters are beholden to any actor.

Chadwick realised how important T'Challa was to people. You don't need to see an interview with his spoon feeding it to know this, actions speak louder that words. When he talks about all my children and how his characters backstory, he could of kept quiet and got paid, instead he fought for change and more than stereotypes, he got fired but that led to his successor MBJ to get the character with  better foundation and depth to him which led him to success.

In 42 Chad studied Robinson videos to see how he moved and slid into bases so he could get it right, and argued with the directors about how the stunt double wasn't sliding how Robinson did in real life and they agreed to let him do it himself. For Black panther he fought to not have Wakandan speaking with a British accent and was willing to walk away if they didn't relent. He turned down endorsements that he felt would hurt T'Challas positive image for young kid's.

He's done all of that worked so hard.. do you think he would really be cool with T'Challa dieing with him? After all that work? To rob people of that feeling they had wheb they left the theater for the the solo movie? Straight up, Disney f*cked up. This announcement was in bad taste. They waited less than 4 months after his passing and announced not only are they going to start filming next year but T'Challas out.

Under honoring a character Chad fought hard to get to the big screen. No ones allowed to play the character. Sure it sounds nice when they pretty up the words but they have just said that this character is not important enough to continue and what he brings to the table isn't worth exploring. They say they want to Honor Chad while ignoring WHAT Chad was doing which was setting this character up for others to continue what he started and continue to inspire millions like he did.

You say they love the rich culture.. but not the Character, the Man who inspires greatness, the KING who inspired that greatness. Name another black hero that even matches up to T'Challas stature. No drugs, no baby mamas no gangs, or pimps, a good man with a good heart. People love Cap Because he represents american values. Well people love T'Challa Because he represents Black excellence and they took that character away from us because hey wanted to rush announcements and not let people have time (fans and the crew alike) to properly mourn