Author Topic: BLACK PANTHER MOVIES - Wakanda Forever! #RECAST T'CHALLA!  (Read 815318 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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Brethren.

They're GOING TO BRING T'CHALLA BACK. No matter WHAT they're saying right now. Because? Nobody who stays in business says NO to a MULTIBILLION DOLLAR FRANCHISE. Especially because if they don't keep T'Challa poppin? The OTHER studios...who all stood at attention when BP broke all the barriers and records, who lust after creating such success for themselves [ DCEU is already testing the waters with a "light brown not yet Black" safe bet in The Rock/Dwayne Johnson's BLACK ADAM ]...will leap upon this multibillion dollar dropped ball from Marvel and run with it.

If we trust in nothing else from the racist House of Mouse? Trust in their greed.

T'Challa will be back. Literally BANK on it.

Taking a quote from CBR:

"Disney is sad enough to not recast T'Challa, but greedy enough to continue the franchise without him"


Exactly.  And do we think they’d go on with the next movie without him if they thought they still couldn’t make billions of dollars?

You think Aquaman sequels would be made if Jason Momoa died?  They probably would, but would recast him.  Why?  No one in that movie (no matter how dumb I thought Momoa’s acting was) can do what Arthur Curry does or outshined the lead character.  Mera might be the closest, but Aquaman didn’t have some little sister that made a suit for him or gave him his powers, didn’t have supporting characters so layered and with the ability to fight almost to his level that they were as memorable as he was, and so forth.  And AQ didn’t have half the cultural impact or importance Black Panther did.  But what they lost is that TCHALLA AS BLACK PANTHER is necessary.  But the way things were set up after the movie, and before it honestly? Anyone can be Black Panther.

Which is why they’re forging ahead without him.


Brethren. Family.

There is nobody in T'Challa's supporting cast...outside of KILLMONGER...who even has A CHANCE of recreating the level of success that Boseman had with T'Challa The Black Panther.  Letitia Wright...the actress herself...flat out doesn't have the action chops [ even with the vaunted Marvel training and stunt doubles ] to pull the weight of a SECOND BP installment; especially since the one possible knock on BP is that its action pieces weren't as MARVELous as many of us expected. This lack of action was hidden by brilliant CGI work of BP and later KM in the suit, but such CGI work won't do it in the next film. The bulk of action...in order to surpass the previous high bar set in BP 1...must be both done by the actor and live stunt doubles AND the QUALITY of this action MUST surpass the previous BP installment [ as is the case for all Marvel movies; even THE HULK ].

Let's skip the other points which make the inarguable and inevitable case for the recasting of BP for the nonce. Let's forget the fact that the film is called BLACK PANTHER and the BLACK PANTHER is popularly and EXCLUSIVELY connected with T'CHALLA in the world public's mind. Not Shuri, Mbaku, Queen Ramonda, Killmonger, Okoye or W'Kabi. T'CHALLA. IS THE BLACK PANTHER. TO THE REST OF THE WORLD. And rightly so.

But let's skip that and look at this supporting cast. They're AMAZING. But can they actually carry the mantle of BP with SIMILAR OR SUPERIOR SUCCESS AS CHADWICK BOSEMAN DID WITH T'CHALLA? That's what those who entertain the notion of the franchise continuing WITHOUT...THE FRANCHISE LEAD...are arguing. So. Who in the supporting cast is worthy and able to carry on the whole franchise?

Answer: NOBODY. Except for the RECAST T'Challa.

Letitia Wright lacks the physical gifts AND the mental strength to carry such a massively important franchise forward. Lupita Nyongo? Lacks the physical gifts. She'd have to break out with Black Widow level action...and she STILL wouldn't be enough because HER CHARACTER ISN'T DESIGNED TO CARRY THE WEIGHT OF THE CROWN. Even if she birthed T'Challa's child? She STILL IS NOT THE BLACK PANTHER. So would Disney bet the franchise on her? No. Bad business, especially in this coronavirus era. The movie these decisions would result in are practically guaranteed to gross AND net hundreds of millions of dollars less than T'Chadwick BP and therefore are insufficient to reward the expectations and greed of Disney.

Danai Gurira...who plays both the iconic Okoye AND the iconic Michonne...has the action AND acting chops, but Okoye herself is a character who very deliberately isn't interested in stepping to the throne nor is she better off removed from the lead of The Dora Milaje to become the new BLACK PANTHER. Even if they replace her as lead with Ayo...who IS in Captain America: Civil War [ she tells Black Widow to: "...Move! Or you will be moved." ] BLACK PANTHER 1, and INFINITY WAR...Okoye could not ascend to the title of Black Panther without upsetting the internal logic of the franchise. And? Disney'd have to pay her millions of dollars more, just to watch the franchise flop. No. Bad business, especially in this coronavirus era. The movie these decisions would result in are practically guaranteed to gross AND net hundreds of millions of dollars less than T'Chadwick BP and therefore are insufficient to reward the expectations and greed of Disney.

The best bet for replacing BOSEMAN's massive impact onscreen with an ALREADY EXISTING actor in the franchise? Is MICHAEL B. JORDAN. But? MBJ is already both iconic as KM and...DEAD. He cannot be brought back as some kind of rehabilitated KM without both erasing his incredible and movie rocking demise AND removing the most important motivating factor in KM's psychology: he hates T'Challa, and will be the catalyst for WORLD WAR WAKANDA. Furthermore? They'd have to ink MBJ to a multipicture deal, which would be considerably more pricey and dicey than the awe inspiring performance he put in on his "one and done" BP picture offer. And still would make less money than an authentic BLACK PANTHER movie with the titular character in play. Would this make sense for Disney to do in a coronavirus environment, and at a time wherein they're seeking to both expand the offerings of and raise the price tag of Disney+? Wherein movie theater going is unlikely to resume in even the rosiest of REALISTIC projections until late 2022? No. Bad business, especially in this coronavirus era. The movie these decisions would result in are practically guaranteed to gross AND net hundreds of millions of dollars less than T'Chadwick BP and therefore are insufficient to reward the expectations and greed of Disney.


So. Even if they tried to take the franchise in another direction with Okoye, MJB, Lupita Nyongo, or Letitia as BP or [ a much better choice ] The Ancient Future? Disney will not only have sharply LESS great bank receipts and LESSER cultural impact as a phenomenon which drove the first BP to pounce atop all records and retain those records until the rise of INFINITY WAR a few months later. And if we the public can suss this out? Disney has LONG figured this out. So. Despite whatever they're saying now. Would Disney actually do what the current press seems to opine they might, with HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN A FALTERING AND UNCERTAIN ECONOMY ON THE LINE? No. Bad business, especially in this coronavirus era. The movie these decisions would result in are practically guaranteed to gross AND net hundreds of millions of dollars less than T'Chadwick BP and therefore are insufficient to reward the expectations and greed of Disney.

That leaves us with only one path left to tread: recast BLACK PANTHER. Which was going to happen if T'Chadwick was among us and reaching his low 50's in age. The whole franchise would reboot, with at best T'Chadwick playing King T'Chaka.
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Brethren.

They're GOING TO BRING T'CHALLA BACK. No matter WHAT they're saying right now. Because? Nobody who stays in business says NO to a MULTIBILLION DOLLAR FRANCHISE. Especially because if they don't keep T'Challa poppin? The OTHER studios...who all stood at attention when BP broke all the barriers and records, who lust after creating such success for themselves [ DCEU is already testing the waters with a "light brown not yet Black" safe bet in The Rock/Dwayne Johnson's BLACK ADAM ]...will leap upon this multibillion dollar dropped ball from Marvel and run with it.

If we trust in nothing else from the racist House of Mouse? Trust in their greed.

T'Challa will be back. Literally BANK on it.

Except for one thing.  They’re not saying no to a multi billion dollar franchise.  They’re still going forward with a multi billion dollar franchise...just without T’Challa.  To them, to Feige, T’Challa is not necessarily the “multi billion dollar franchise”...Wakanda is.  If they actually believed the character was the franchise, they’d recast him. They’re not going to.  I know we on this board believe T’Challa IS the franchise, but a lot of people outside of here, including now Disney apparently, believes otherwise.  Believes the character can be laid to rest with Boseman and the franchise, the still VERY BLACK, VERY AFRAKAN, franchise can go on with Shuri or whomever in TChalla’s place and all the other “rich, varied characters” that make up Wakanda. That’s what’s being done.   The studios have spoken.

Will T’Challa be back if a new iteration of the MCU happens a generation or so from now?  Maybe.  But for now, they’re going ahead with the franchise without him.  Unless the numbers are SO TERRIBLE for this sequel without TChalla that it forces them to think otherwise...


Feige is not that stupid, brethren. He's not going to make that mistake, no matter what the press clippings are now. I mean Eric Bana...the first Hulk actor...is back. I predicted his return, too. Remember? Everyone thought I was a nutcase for saying such a thing, especially with how Ruffalo has...ahem...SMASHED on his iteration of Hulk. But I told you that the international scene box office...which would get exponentially more important as the USA goes through the throes and stages of THE BROWNING OF AMERICA... would benefit enormously with a international cast supporting the dominant and movie centered Afrikans in a BP franchise.

And I'm telling you now. Unless Marvel is suddenly in the business of LOSING MONEY? They're GOING to recast T'Challa by or before BP 3. The seeds for said recasting or the actual recasting WILL HAPPEN within BP 2.

There is simply no equally lucrative or more lucrative option to be had. And the one thing we CAN bank on? Literally. Is their ever more rapacious greed. Don't believe the hype, y'all. Marvel is FAMOUS for this kind of secrecy, dodges and feints. JDW or someone WILL BE the NEW T'Challa by BP 2 or 3. Mark my words. Seriously. And remember that your Brother Supreme provided you with SUPREME ILLUMINATION on this point YEARS before it actually came to fruition.

This path ALSO allows them to continue their previous intricate plots prior to the introduction and demise of T'Chadwick. Shuri? Could indeed face down Namor...Marvel's Aquaman, or should I say that Aquaman DC's Namor, because I think Namor was published before Aquaman was...as she has done in the comics. But Namor [ if he's introduced in BP 2 ] wouldn't necessarily suffer defeat at Shuri's hands [ the way to NOT  launch yet another multibillion dollar netting franchise is to show the future starring character getting his butt kicked in his intor in the franchise of a more popular, more established character and franchise ], but Shuri won't catch that "L" vs Namor as she did under Maberry's pen.

In fact? The menace of Atlantis could make the search for T'Challa all the more critically important for Wakanda and the BP franchise. And I say to you that BP will be recast, either via the Multiverse or by the more straightforward traditional means. The greed of Marvel and Disney will "make it so" [ Captain/Admiral Jean-Luc Picard reference ].

As I said before: literally BANK on it.
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline Emperorjones

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While Feige has been nothing short of brilliant so far, I can't say it will stay the same or that he can keep the same track record of success. He seems to be moving more in a 'woke' direction, and the success of Captain Marvel as well as Black Panther so far augur that his decision making is still on the money. Of the new projects there are more women and other actors from other diverse communities and if they are not heading these projects I can see them playing in larger roles than they have before in them.

That said, I think sometimes there are more important things than money per se, and the social engineering the MCU apparently will be going more deeply into in the next round of films and television series can withstand a disappointment or loss at the box office or with television ratings, one or two of them. We got Black Widow, Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel 2, She-Hulk, Ironheart, and Wandavision, with female leads or co-leads. We know Jane Foster will be Thor and Valkyrie was made King of Asgard (I guess 'queen' was too limiting a term), I also imagine that Kate Spencer will be the not so stealth star of the Hawkeye series, and that might be the case with America Chavez in Dr. Strange 2 as well. It does make sense to spend time to establish those new characters. Also, for the new movies, I see female characters being even more prominent than they've been in the past.

So, I see Feige putting Shuri, or a woman, in the BP suit for the sequel as part of this trend. Definitely recasting T'Challa would garner headlines, excitement, and speculation, but putting Shuri or a woman in the suit garners all those things plus will be celebrated by the media ad nausea for its 'representation' and 'BlackGirlMagic', etc.

Recasting T'Challa will bring out feminists to complain about why Shuri or another female wasn't chosen, and we'll get more 'thought pieces' about misogynoir and how black women are invisible and perhaps the new T'Challa or I could see Ryan Coogler getting blamed, and painted as another black man who hates black women. Though I don't think if that would happen it would sink the film but it would leave BP 2 without the massive goodwill the first film had before it debuted. I think part of the excitement about Black Panther as a pop cultural phenomenon was also driven by a reaction to Black Lives Matter and the Trump years. Without Trump in the White House, but Kamala Harris as VP, I can see the cultural conversation shifting more to focusing on black women and women of color, and Shuri as BP could become the preeminent woman of color hero for the Kamala Harris years.

Instead of spending the money and time to make a film franchise out of Monica Rambeau or Ironheart for example, so you can have that black female superhero franchise, or multiple female superhero franchises, and I could see them doing something with Rambeau, Ironheart, Storm, Mercedes Knight (more Daughters of the Dragon than her solo though) in movies or heading television series, they are going to cannibalize the one existing megasuccessful black film franchise they got. Because Disney IMO still is adhering to the old way of seeing the success of a black film as being an exception and not a new rule or the start of a new trend. It's doubtful too that they would care as much about getting rid of a black male superhero in favor of a black female because 'black women empowerment' is very much in vogue in the media and pop culture-I see it more lip service than reality-but still, black women are far more fake praised.

So I don't see the erasure of T'Challa from the BP movie franchise necessarily meaning we'll get another black male starring MCU superhero film. There is Falcon & Winter Soldier and a War Machine-led Plus series (it would be great if Terrence Howard played the villain for that), but let's be honest, neither Falcon or War Machine have been that great in the MCU, and both don't stand on their own-they are more like do boys for more powerful, cooler, and in Stark's case, richer white men. Who knows if Luke Cage will come back, but even there, Cage's world isn't as large as T'Challa's. I wouldn't mind seeing a Deathlok movie or series, more like the Henry Hayes version than what we saw on Agents of Shield, but even Deathlok's world isn't as large.

I saw that Vita Ayala had been mentioned as a future writer for BP and I could definitely see Marvel doing that. She's the "It" woke black comic writer of the moment. I don't think Ayala would take BP comics on a black feminist slant because Coates, along with Roxanne Gay, have already done that. It's just that Ayala might complete the job, or eliminate T'Challa all together. If that happens, I don't think black feminists fans should rejoice (I wonder how many black feminists even read or buy comics) because I've read some of Ayala's Livewire, a book about another black female superhero, and she often wrote that character too weak. She was getting owned too much with the power she possesses. The same might happen with Shuri, or we could see a book with more talking and 'virtue signaling' than traditional (and would it now be considered 'toxic'?) comic book action.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 02:53:27 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline supreme illuminati

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While Feige has been nothing short of brilliant so far, I can't say it will stay the same or that he can keep the same track record of success. He seems to be moving more in a 'woke' direction, and the success of Captain Marvel as well as Black Panther so far augur that his decision making is still on the money. Of the new projects there are more women and other actors from other diverse communities and if they are not heading these projects I can see them playing in larger roles than they have before in them.

That said, I think sometimes there are more important things than money per se, and the social engineering the MCU apparently will be going more deeply into in the next round of films and television series can withstand a disappointment or loss at the box office or with television ratings, one or two of them. We got Black Widow, Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel 2, She-Hulk, Ironheart, and Wandavision, with female leads or co-leads. We know Jane Foster will be Thor and Valkyrie was made King of Asgard (I guess 'queen' was too limiting a term), I also imagine that Kate Spencer will be the not so stealth star of the Hawkeye series, and that might be the case with America Chavez in Dr. Strange 2 as well. It does make sense to spend time to establish those new characters. Also, for the new movies, I see female characters being even more prominent than they've been in the past.

So, I see Feige putting Shuri, or a woman, in the BP suit for the sequel as part of this trend. Definitely recasting T'Challa would garner headlines, excitement, and speculation, but putting Shuri or a woman in the suit garners all those things plus will be celebrated by the media ad nausea for its 'representation' and 'BlackGirlMagic', etc.

Recasting T'Challa will bring out feminists to complain about why Shuri or another female wasn't chosen, and we'll get more 'thought pieces' about misogynoir and how black women are invisible and perhaps the new T'Challa or I could see Ryan Coogler getting blamed, and painted as another black man who hates black women. Though I don't think if that would happen it would sink the film but it would leave BP 2 without the massive goodwill the first film had before it debuted. I think part of the excitement about Black Panther as a pop cultural phenomenon was also driven by a reaction to Black Lives Matter and the Trump years. Without Trump in the White House, but Kamala Harris as VP, I can see the cultural conversation shifting more to focusing on black women and women of color, and Shuri as BP could become the preeminent woman of color hero for the Kamala Harris years.

Instead of spending the money and time to make a film franchise out of Monica Rambeau or Ironheart for example, so you can have that black female superhero franchise, or multiple female superhero franchises, and I could see them doing something with Rambeau, Ironheart, Storm, Mercedes Knight (more Daughters of the Dragon than her solo though) in movies or heading television series, they are going to cannibalize the one existing megasuccessful black film franchise they got. Because Disney IMO still is adhering to the old way of seeing the success of a black film as being an exception and not a new rule or the start of a new trend. It's doubtful too that they would care as much about getting rid of a black male superhero in favor of a black female because 'black women empowerment' is very much in vogue in the media and pop culture-I see it more lip service than reality-but still, black women are far more fake praised.

So I don't see the erasure of T'Challa from the BP movie franchise necessarily meaning we'll get another black male starring MCU superhero film. There is Falcon & Winter Soldier and a War Machine-led Plus series (it would be great if Terrence Howard played the villain for that), but let's be honest, neither Falcon or War Machine have been that great in the MCU, and both don't stand on their own-they are more like do boys for more powerful, cooler, and in Stark's case, richer white men. Who knows if Luke Cage will come back, but even there, Cage's world isn't as large as T'Challa's. I wouldn't mind seeing a Deathlok series, more like the Henry Hayes version than what we saw on Agents of Shield, but even Deathlok's world isn't as large.

I saw that Vita Ayala had been mentioned as a future writer for BP and I could definitely see Marvel doing that. She's the "It" woke black comic writer of the moment. I don't think Ayala would take BP comics on a black feminist slant because Coates, along with Roxanne Gay, have already done that. It's just that Ayala might complete the job, or eliminate T'Challa all together. If that happens, I don't think black feminists fans should rejoice (I wonder how many black feminists even read or buy comics) because I've read some of Ayala's Livewire, a book about another black female superhero, and she often wrote that character too weak. She was getting owned too much with the power she possesses. The same might happen with Shuri, or we could see a book with more talking and 'virtue signaling' than traditional (and would it now be considered 'toxic'?) comic book action.


I read the above twice. Every sentence hits home. It's well thought out, and I thank you, Brother Emperorjones, for droppin this on us.

Maybe it's me? But I don't see this toxic masculinity, Black Femininity thing as a major issue. Most of the examples of "toxic masculinity" [ if there really IS such a thing ] that I have seen thus far have been laughably stupid and untrue accusations. I haven't read any well thought out "thought pieces" on this matter. Would our HEFfa sistahs help a brutha out [ this is where Jenn should just jump out of the woodwork and be like: "Logical argument clarification plus clownification? That's my thing" ]?

Vita Ayala better not come near 616 BP. That? Better be given to Redjack. Or given to Priest again. Or...this makes too much sense to do, but I must throw it out there...our own R to the H. Who would utterly dog walk the competition with the new, better placed BP.

I vibe with your argument regarding the "social optics" that some of the more extreme members of Wokeness may have that propel Shuri over T'Challa, but...bottom line...these social optics won't result in a billion dollar movie. And Feige? Wants a billion plus dollar movie and a multibillion dollar NETTING franchise. Like I said before, am saying now, and will again: there's no reason to go either/or when you can have BOTH. Shuri rocks BP 2 [ which I don't prefer, but for the purposes of this argument let's go with that ] and at the end she finds the NEW T'Challa. Or. Lays the seends for bringing back the new recast T'Challa for BP 3.

Brethren. Family. Something very like the above will indeed happen in BP 2 or 3.

T'Challa will either be recast before BP 2 or before BP 3. But he's coming back.

For the record? I would hella support and watch multiple times any SPECTRUM, IRONHEART, STORM, DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON, etc movies. And? Idk about a War Machine Disney+ series until now. Thanks for that nugget of information.
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline Ezyo

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Here's why I don't like what Feige said.

None of the these characters have ANY source material, history, consistency or major relevance to draw From.

Shuri? Vastly different from her comic version. Disney teenage princess vs stone cold adult queen. But due to lack of  development and direction, she is a weird hybrid in comics. Nothing really to draw from. Nakia? In name only. Last time we saw her was in BP Wakanda forever, and she looked like a stereotyped crack wh**e. And Coates version was some traitor. Both versions are dead. Okoye? She is the only one on the list who is  true to her comic version. However, she only came back due to the MCU and she has Zero anything to draw from. M'Baku,? Same in name only, is a Villain, and has a horribly outdated and frankly racist name and outfit. W'kabi? Dead.

So none of these characters have anything to go from, they are all essentially Brand New characters added to the franchise. Which is fine to do, however, you cannot use them to drive a pre-existing franchise with a 54 year published title lead character WITHOUT said character and expect it to be successful or even in good taste. Especially when this character is the only one with stories to adapt form and explore and the character has plenty more character journey and arc to explore.

The other problem is that Feiges words aren't words that indicate we will see T'Challa again on the near future. They seem hellbent on "honoring" a trailblazer by shutting down any opportunity for anyone to follow in his footsteps to continue the characters much deserved and very important journey.

The thing I really hate when people try to use that argument about hating black women is that they say that, while thinking it's perfectly okay to replace black men and not flinch (when Black men are also poorly represented as well) and think it's cool. Instead of demanding that Black women get pushed as well there is a need to cannibalize Black men (and vice versa) instead of celebrating success.

Black panther did more for equal positive representation that literally any other movie in the last several decade's or of all time and instead of celebrating we get people trying to cannibalize it for no other reason than to check off a diversity box and further continue this cycle of infighting.

They ignore the history behind the character and are willing to throw ANY (not a specific equal important character, just anyone will do) into the role just so they say they are represented. That is asking for crumbs. That is what Finn became just some Black character to check off diversity and he was utter garbage due to poor writing.

Unfortunately the wording used by Feige doesn't inspire confidence

Offline Emperorjones

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While Feige has been nothing short of brilliant so far, I can't say it will stay the same or that he can keep the same track record of success. He seems to be moving more in a 'woke' direction, and the success of Captain Marvel as well as Black Panther so far augur that his decision making is still on the money. Of the new projects there are more women and other actors from other diverse communities and if they are not heading these projects I can see them playing in larger roles than they have before in them.

That said, I think sometimes there are more important things than money per se, and the social engineering the MCU apparently will be going more deeply into in the next round of films and television series can withstand a disappointment or loss at the box office or with television ratings, one or two of them. We got Black Widow, Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel 2, She-Hulk, Ironheart, and Wandavision, with female leads or co-leads. We know Jane Foster will be Thor and Valkyrie was made King of Asgard (I guess 'queen' was too limiting a term), I also imagine that Kate Spencer will be the not so stealth star of the Hawkeye series, and that might be the case with America Chavez in Dr. Strange 2 as well. It does make sense to spend time to establish those new characters. Also, for the new movies, I see female characters being even more prominent than they've been in the past.

So, I see Feige putting Shuri, or a woman, in the BP suit for the sequel as part of this trend. Definitely recasting T'Challa would garner headlines, excitement, and speculation, but putting Shuri or a woman in the suit garners all those things plus will be celebrated by the media ad nausea for its 'representation' and 'BlackGirlMagic', etc.

Recasting T'Challa will bring out feminists to complain about why Shuri or another female wasn't chosen, and we'll get more 'thought pieces' about misogynoir and how black women are invisible and perhaps the new T'Challa or I could see Ryan Coogler getting blamed, and painted as another black man who hates black women. Though I don't think if that would happen it would sink the film but it would leave BP 2 without the massive goodwill the first film had before it debuted. I think part of the excitement about Black Panther as a pop cultural phenomenon was also driven by a reaction to Black Lives Matter and the Trump years. Without Trump in the White House, but Kamala Harris as VP, I can see the cultural conversation shifting more to focusing on black women and women of color, and Shuri as BP could become the preeminent woman of color hero for the Kamala Harris years.

Instead of spending the money and time to make a film franchise out of Monica Rambeau or Ironheart for example, so you can have that black female superhero franchise, or multiple female superhero franchises, and I could see them doing something with Rambeau, Ironheart, Storm, Mercedes Knight (more Daughters of the Dragon than her solo though) in movies or heading television series, they are going to cannibalize the one existing megasuccessful black film franchise they got. Because Disney IMO still is adhering to the old way of seeing the success of a black film as being an exception and not a new rule or the start of a new trend. It's doubtful too that they would care as much about getting rid of a black male superhero in favor of a black female because 'black women empowerment' is very much in vogue in the media and pop culture-I see it more lip service than reality-but still, black women are far more fake praised.

So I don't see the erasure of T'Challa from the BP movie franchise necessarily meaning we'll get another black male starring MCU superhero film. There is Falcon & Winter Soldier and a War Machine-led Plus series (it would be great if Terrence Howard played the villain for that), but let's be honest, neither Falcon or War Machine have been that great in the MCU, and both don't stand on their own-they are more like do boys for more powerful, cooler, and in Stark's case, richer white men. Who knows if Luke Cage will come back, but even there, Cage's world isn't as large as T'Challa's. I wouldn't mind seeing a Deathlok series, more like the Henry Hayes version than what we saw on Agents of Shield, but even Deathlok's world isn't as large.

I saw that Vita Ayala had been mentioned as a future writer for BP and I could definitely see Marvel doing that. She's the "It" woke black comic writer of the moment. I don't think Ayala would take BP comics on a black feminist slant because Coates, along with Roxanne Gay, have already done that. It's just that Ayala might complete the job, or eliminate T'Challa all together. If that happens, I don't think black feminists fans should rejoice (I wonder how many black feminists even read or buy comics) because I've read some of Ayala's Livewire, a book about another black female superhero, and she often wrote that character too weak. She was getting owned too much with the power she possesses. The same might happen with Shuri, or we could see a book with more talking and 'virtue signaling' than traditional (and would it now be considered 'toxic'?) comic book action.


I read the above twice. Every sentence hits home. It's well thought out, and I thank you, Brother Emperorjones, for droppin this on us.

Maybe it's me? But I don't see this toxic masculinity, Black Femininity thing as a major issue. Most of the examples of "toxic masculinity" [ if there really IS such a thing ] that I have seen thus far have been laughably stupid and untrue accusations. I haven't read any well thought out "thought pieces" on this matter. Would our HEFfa sistahs help a brutha out [ this is where Jenn should just jump out of the woodwork and be like: "Logical argument clarification plus clownification? That's my thing" ]?

Vita Ayala better not come near 616 BP. That? Better be given to Redjack. Or given to Priest again. Or...this makes too much sense to do, but I must throw it out there...our own R to the H. Who would utterly dog walk the competition with the new, better placed BP.

I vibe with your argument regarding the "social optics" that some of the more extreme members of Wokeness may have that propel Shuri over T'Challa, but...bottom line...these social optics won't result in a billion dollar movie. And Feige? Wants a billion plus dollar movie and a multibillion dollar NETTING franchise. Like I said before, am saying now, and will again: there's no reason to go either/or when you can have BOTH. Shuri rocks BP 2 [ which I don't prefer, but for the purposes of this argument let's go with that ] and at the end she finds the NEW T'Challa. Or. Lays the seends for bringing back the new recast T'Challa for BP 3.

Brethren. Family. Something very like the above will indeed happen in BP 2 or 3.

T'Challa will either be recast before BP 2 or before BP 3. But he's coming back.

For the record? I would hella support and watch multiple times any SPECTRUM, IRONHEART, STORM, DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON, etc movies. And? Idk about a War Machine Disney+ series until now. Thanks for that nugget of information.

Thanks Supreme,

Last week Disney had an investor day where Feige introduced a slate of upcoming MCU films and Disney Plus series including the War Machine one, also one for Ironheart, and the biggest news perhaps was they are doing a Fantastic Four movie.

As I was saying before, I don't think it's always about money. That said, Captain Marvel made a billion for them and Brie Larson was not a beloved person for some segments of the internet at the time, and with all the goodwill and positive media that the first Black Panther got, and the splash that Shuri made as one of the most appealing, stand out characters, it's not unconceivable to imagine that a sequel, with Shuri in the lead role, a character with a lot more personality than Captain Marvel, and as already part of a global pop culture phenomenon would not make another billion for them. Even if it fell short, the built-in excuses about soft support for a female-led film, a black female-led film (we've never had a billion dollar franchise led by a black female so this would be new), or a black-led film, could soften the blow. I do feel that even if it falls short of a billion or doesn't exceed the take of the first Black Panther, that doesn't mean it will be considered a flop, the Hollywood media is behind this franchise, and there would be a sequel, just like Ant-Man is getting a third film.

I think the social engineering aspect is there. And while it might not seem like a big deal, depending on how much social media you imbibe, it's all over social media, but it's been in academia and in pop culture for decades now. We just didn't have a name for it perhaps because it was a slow dripping poison. We got the black feminist professors and literature of the '70s which helped set up the black feminist novels, television series, and movies of the 1980s and 1990s like The Women of Brewster Place, Waiting to Exhale, and the grandmother of them all The Color Purple. And I would be remiss to leave out Oprah, the Granny Goodness of Black Feminism. Our community came to accept black feminist characterizations of black men pretty easily and without much debate.  We have a particular lack of discernment when it's sold to us with black faces. And because this stuff has seeped into a lot of black pop culture, and so much of our entertainment is geared toward black women, and has been for years, if not decades now, we don't even think about it for the most part. The people who mention it have easily been labeled as trolls, sexists, etc. and dismissed as outliers because the black feminist definition of gender and gender relations has largely been accepted as the norm or default for our community.

This is why the gender 'conversation' in the mainstream media where blacks are concerned consist mostly of black women being given forums to talk about how deficient black men are, and the black men who participate in any of these panels generally agree with them. Social engineering is an important part of what the MCU is embarking upon, out of what they will claim, and some of them might believe, is encouraging inclusion, understanding, empathy, and equality between sexes and races, but the way it's done all too often where black people are concerned is a zero sum game where it becomes okay for black men to get less or nothing and we are all supposed to be happy with that.

While this might seem like much to do about nothing, black feminist thought is now rewriting black history. There's a book coming out in 2022 from a black woman claiming that it was black women who won the Civil War. We already, and rightly, tout the sacrifice and work Harriet Tubman put in to fight against slavery, but how many of us even know the name of one black soldier (of the close to 200,000) who fought for the Union? I don't want the special history that black women have to be ignored or marginalized, but I am not down for revisionism that erases black men in favor of black women. Because that's doing to us-one half of the black community-what some feminists claim is being done to them. It's more about vengefulness or hogging the spotlight than providing a balanced, useful history that can help our community as a whole. And it's not without notice that these black feminists don't have as much smoke for white men-the same racial gender group that is paying a lot of them-when it comes to getting at who wrote a lot of the history books or made the movies, or documentaries that the argue-and some with merit-has excluded black women.

You can look at how the 2020 election is being described as another example of how black men are ignored in 'favor' of black women. Almost everyone proclaims that black women won the election for Biden, and saved the day. Harris thanked black women only on social media for their support. Even in the leaked NAACP meeting, Biden credited black and white women for his election, even though overall more white women voted for Trump. What's often ignored is that black men were the second highest voting group for Biden. A couple years back, when black men came in second in support to Doug Jones, in Alabama, that was also ignored. After the 2020 election, more focus still went to the supposed '18%' of black men who voted for Trump instead of the 80% that voted for Biden, whereas the supposed '8%' of black women who voted for Trump, double his numbers in 2016, was mostly ignored. Those actual numbers are debatable, based on the polling used, but still not a lot of soul searching, finger wagging, or browbeating black women for voting in higher numbers for Trump than they did before. Also, no mention at all when black women voted less for Obama (not by much though) but around 20% less (than black men) for Andrew Gillam. This voting behavior was never tied to gender or used as proof of disloyalty to black men or the black race.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 07:13:02 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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Here's why I don't like what Feige said.

None of the these characters have ANY source material, history, consistency or major relevance to draw From.

Shuri? Vastly different from her comic version. Disney teenage princess vs stone cold adult queen. But due to lack of  development and direction, she is a weird hybrid in comics. Nothing really to draw from. Nakia? In name only. Last time we saw her was in BP Wakanda forever, and she looked like a stereotyped crack wh**e. And Coates version was some traitor. Both versions are dead. Okoye? She is the only one on the list who is  true to her comic version. However, she only came back due to the MCU and she has Zero anything to draw from. M'Baku,? Same in name only, is a Villain, and has a horribly outdated and frankly racist name and outfit. W'kabi? Dead.

So none of these characters have anything to go from, they are all essentially Brand New characters added to the franchise. Which is fine to do, however, you cannot use them to drive a pre-existing franchise with a 54 year published title lead character WITHOUT said character and expect it to be successful or even in good taste. Especially when this character is the only one with stories to adapt form and explore and the character has plenty more character journey and arc to explore.

The other problem is that Feiges words aren't words that indicate we will see T'Challa again on the near future. They seem hellbent on "honoring" a trailblazer by shutting down any opportunity for anyone to follow in his footsteps to continue the characters much deserved and very important journey.

The thing I really hate when people try to use that argument about hating black women is that they say that, while thinking it's perfectly okay to replace black men and not flinch (when Black men are also poorly represented as well) and think it's cool. Instead of demanding that Black women get pushed as well there is a need to cannibalize Black men (and vice versa) instead of celebrating success.

Black panther did more for equal positive representation that literally any other movie in the last several decade's or of all time and instead of celebrating we get people trying to cannibalize it for no other reason than to check off a diversity box and further continue this cycle of infighting.

They ignore the history behind the character and are willing to throw ANY (not a specific equal important character, just anyone will do) into the role just so they say they are represented. That is asking for crumbs. That is what Finn became just some Black character to check off diversity and he was utter garbage due to poor writing.

Unfortunately the wording used by Feige doesn't inspire confidence


I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but I doubt that the 54 year publishing history of BP means much to Feige, Marvel Studios, or Disney. Those stories can relatively easy be adapted for the Wakandan characters they have without T'Challa. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Monica Lynn just wasn't made Shuri's girlfriend. We don't know the deal with Captain Marvel yet, and Marvel has yet to have a lead LGBTQ hero. Black Panther 2 could very well be their first.

It reminds me of how Wesley's Blade was more popular than anything they did with him in the comics, beforehand, or after really. But the comics did change-but not enough-to fit Wesley. We've already seen the comics take on the aesthetics of the first BP film, and you mentioned how its used some of the characters. We could get new stories to be the grist for future films that have the new takes on the characters.

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And that is also where my in poor taste comment comes from. Yes, they could adapt one of T'Challas stories for the characters and that right there would prove just how full of s**t they are about T'Challa being recasted. They would claim exploring the rich tapestry if these characters and Wakanda.. but they have no stories to adapt so they steal T'Challas stories instead of bringing him back to tell HIS stories and explore how T'Challa handles and grows as King and BP. 

It just further reinforces that without T'Challa, this franchise is nothing and instead of recognizing that, they are instead going to pretend that's not the case and shut T'Challa down
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Here's why I don't like what Feige said.

None of the these characters have ANY source material, history, consistency or major relevance to draw From.

Shuri? Vastly different from her comic version. Disney teenage princess vs stone cold adult queen. But due to lack of  development and direction, she is a weird hybrid in comics. Nothing really to draw from. Nakia? In name only. Last time we saw her was in BP Wakanda forever, and she looked like a stereotyped crack wh**e. And Coates version was some traitor. Both versions are dead. Okoye? She is the only one on the list who is  true to her comic version. However, she only came back due to the MCU and she has Zero anything to draw from. M'Baku,? Same in name only, is a Villain, and has a horribly outdated and frankly racist name and outfit. W'kabi? Dead.

So none of these characters have anything to go from, they are all essentially Brand New characters added to the franchise. Which is fine to do, however, you cannot use them to drive a pre-existing franchise with a 54 year published title lead character WITHOUT said character and expect it to be successful or even in good taste. Especially when this character is the only one with stories to adapt form and explore and the character has plenty more character journey and arc to explore.

The other problem is that Feiges words aren't words that indicate we will see T'Challa again on the near future. They seem hellbent on "honoring" a trailblazer by shutting down any opportunity for anyone to follow in his footsteps to continue the characters much deserved and very important journey.

The thing I really hate when people try to use that argument about hating black women is that they say that, while thinking it's perfectly okay to replace black men and not flinch (when Black men are also poorly represented as well) and think it's cool. Instead of demanding that Black women get pushed as well there is a need to cannibalize Black men (and vice versa) instead of celebrating success.

Black panther did more for equal positive representation that literally any other movie in the last several decade's or of all time and instead of celebrating we get people trying to cannibalize it for no other reason than to check off a diversity box and further continue this cycle of infighting.

They ignore the history behind the character and are willing to throw ANY (not a specific equal important character, just anyone will do) into the role just so they say they are represented. That is asking for crumbs. That is what Finn became just some Black character to check off diversity and he was utter garbage due to poor writing.

Unfortunately the wording used by Feige doesn't inspire confidence


I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but I doubt that the 54 year publishing history of BP means much to Feige, Marvel Studios, or Disney. Those stories can relatively easy be adapted for the Wakandan characters they have without T'Challa. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Monica Lynn just wasn't made Shuri's girlfriend. We don't know the deal with Captain Marvel yet, and Marvel has yet to have a lead LGBTQ hero. Black Panther 2 could very well be their first.

It reminds me of how Wesley's Blade was more popular than anything they did with him in the comics, beforehand, or after really. But the comics did change-but not enough-to fit Wesley. We've already seen the comics take on the aesthetics of the first BP film, and you mentioned how its used some of the characters. We could get new stories to be the grist for future films that have the new takes on the characters.



These are all terrific points. I agree with the great majority of them...


...but I think that making money supersedes all other concerns in business. Because? That's business's #1 Rule, and ALWAYS WILL BE.

The #1 Rule is what's going to guide Feige, and will be a major concern for Feige. Have you considered that it's a big thing, a very important thing, to come busting out of the economic malaise that we're currently in with blockbuster successes in the movies? Have you considered that BP 2 underperforming [ grossing under $600 mill ] could lead to a domino affect which could spread to other tentpole movies and cast a slowing or chilling effect on an economy that needs to be going gangbusters b y then, if the theater experience is to be resurrected?

You made a GREAT POINT about Black female led tentpoles...THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY. So in THAT capacity? Shuri led BP grossing $500 million+...which it will, I'm betting, because I'm going to support the sistahs and so will about 50 million of us worldwide...would be a MASSIVE SUCCESS that could be spun as what it is. The world's FIRST AND ONLY, RECORD BREAKING, TOWERING SUCCESS BY A BLACK WOMAN LEADING A MAJOR FRANCHISE.

But it's STILL UNDERPERFORMANCE in the $ and cents bottom line. And that bottom line? Is THEE bottom line. Shareholders will be looking at how they made HALF OR LESS with Shuri than they did with Chadwick. And that, family, will bring back T'Challa. I'm tryin tuh toldja.  In fact? The trepidations they have about us will play in our favor in this small way: they'll be loathe to veer from a billion dollar plus netting, surefire winning formula. Even if Shuri rocks her own BP 2 as her audition and litmus test for leading her own trilogy [ which is what I expect this will be, and it might even be part of the multiproperty litmus test for A FORCE, the all WOMEN Avengers ] and she rocks BP 2? Even if they decide to make Shuri BLACK PANTHER? It's just not going to work in the multibillion dollar and sense bottom line without T'Challa.

And if you think that social optics is important to the pockets of the Disney shareholders as losing HALF A BILLION DOLLARS is? My brutha. I have to assure you that it isn't. That half a billie dollar difference? Is all the difference needed to be sure that T'Challa comes back.

A movie with Wright in the lead? Is a vastly different movie than with Chadwick in the lead. We'll be treated to a personality with a lot more sparkle in it than Robert Downey Jr's Tony Starks and personality and a TONY STARK like inventor's approach...done with #blackgirlmagic. It'd be historic, and get lots of props socially.

And still bring in barely more than half of what Chadwick rocked. And Shuri BP will bring in LESS than JDW BP+SHURI in BP 3.

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Salutations Mr. Curry. This missive serves to inform you that you failed to reply to Post #3355 sent Yesterday at 09:08:43 pm. While we at the Wakandan Office of State recognize this was just a minor oversight on your part, we would appreciate your feedback. We thank you in advance and await your response.

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Most everything in that post I already addressed in one way or another in my other posts, and even in my last.  As for female inclusion, hey, I agree with you.  I don’t think going forth with Shuri as BP for “greater female inclusion” is necessary.  I never cared for Shuri nor thought she was ever necessary in the first place.  And I liked the original concept of the Dora way better. 

My point was that the “black feminist and WOKE” creatives is going to take all advantage of this, writers like Vita Ayala and others who have been way more interested in the supporting women characters of Wakanda, fans online who are all for Shuri being BP and NOT recasting TChalla who argue “she took the mantle in the comics, so it was gonna happen anyway” and “anyone can be black Panther” and “let a QUEEN rule” and so forth.  Those who are for recasting and saying TChalla’s story was not finished being told are being shamed for not being okay with Shuri taking the mantle.  (Funny enough, it seems it’s mostly black women and white men who are doing this and for Shuri taking the mantle and letting TChalla die with Boseman.  I do see this as related to Coogler expanding so greatly on the other characters, especially the female ones, in the franchise and now? The writers who have not been very interested in TChalla and moreso in Shuri, Okoye, and others will have their chance.  All I’m saying. 

As for Harry Potter, there were plenty of arguments about how more black people needed to be in the franchise, and there has been a heavy movement since the movies in making Hermione black, saying she was like a white girl who used “black girl magic” and there have been theatrical productions where they’ve made Hermione black.  Lol there’s even a spoken word video on how Hermione is really a black girl.  And Rowling is cool with it,  Guarantee you, if they ever redo Potter Hermione will be a black girl.

But you can’t replace “Harry Potter” because that’s literally who he is.  Apparently, again, Black Panther can be anyone. So can Batman, but Bruce Wayne is so tied pathologically to the character it would be hard to do.  And he always comes back,  In the current MCU, hey are letting TChalla die with Boseman,  they likely will follow suit in the comics too.

Mr. Curry, thank you for the prompt reply. May I call you A.? I am in agreement with you on the original concept of the Dora Milaje. Just tweek it a bit. Two age appropriate women who are going to marry the king. A queen, of course, would have the Doro Milaje and two age appropriate men she was intent on marrying.

What is your opinion A. on why “black feminists and WOKE” creatives are so interested in Black Panther with such fervor. Surely their time could be better spent working on...









Why aren't “black feminists and WOKE” creatives storming Themyscira?



Again the demand for Shuri taking the mantle comes from a insular perspective and is vocal in certain spheres orbiting in the ether-verse. There are other domains in cyberspace insistent on maintaining the status quo concerning Black Panther. With regards to Harry Potter it wouldn't take much to produce Harriet Potter or create a new character with the same birth right as her predecessor and be the first woman to be a wizard at Hogswart. Kind of like what they may do to James Bond.
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I'm not speaking for A. Curry, I can't, but I have my own thoughts about the question Ture posed. I think that for some black feminists there is a toxic fixation on black men. It's not enough for black women to be 'represented' or even genuinely represented, or to shine for them. Black men have to be hurt. Black men have to be called out, we have to lose something, blamed for something, or be 'exposed'. It's like an automatic, Pavlovian response. If a black male character, like Black Lightning, has a series, then instantly their focus is on if the series has any black women and why aren't those black women given 'voice' or 'agency', which is code for why aren't they the characters the series really should be about.

When I think about it, when Storm was the most prominent black superhero on screen I never heard anyone lament that she should be pushed aside for Bishop or Synch or another black male character. No one demanded that Halle's Catwoman share her movie with say Crispus Allen. To be fair, I don't remember anyone saying anything similar about the Blade movies either, though Blade came at a time when comic book movies weren't a thing, and I don't recall the first Blade film touting it's comic book origins even. Further, the internet and social media back then, or even when Blade Trinity, came out, where not at the level they are now. And I should note that while I don't recall any black feminists going after the Blade film, David Goyer made sure to push Blade to the side for the new character Krista Starr in the Blade television series (and Wesley's Blade was forced to share screentime with Ryan Reynolds and Jessica Biel in the hopes they would be spun off into their own franchise), so while black feminism was silent on Blade to my knowledge, feminism overall still won out when it came to the Blade franchise.

I doubt many black feminists know or care much about the black female characters that Ture lists, but the ones who want T'Challa gone in the BP film franchise are only looking at the surface, and because he's a prominent black male character he must be taken down and a black female put in his place. It's a competition to them, and a 'win' for black males equals a 'loss' for black females. Many of them don't want to build anything, they want to take what they perceive black men have, but also what white people have, and they feel they deserve.

This kind of wrathful, illogical envy is based on the idea that black men seemingly have it so great, that there are tons of positive, or they might consider toxically masculine black male depictions in the media while black women are invisible. And it's one-sided. No black feminist calls for greater inclusion of black males or the male perspective in any projects where black women are the focus, especially straight black males. It's just supposed to be accepted that black women can speak and black men are allowed only to do so when spoken to, and can only back up what black women say. That's the kind of positive masculinity that is being pushed for black males, in the media.

This kind of thinking is why some black feminists in one breath can say black men are oppressors even while the more astute of them can also list many of the social ills plaguing black males, which would seem to contradict their assertion that black men have the power to oppress anyone. All this stuff about 'black male privilege' and 'straight black men are the white people of black people' rest easily, in their minds, with the beliefs that black men are the 'weakest link' and 'trash'. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's not really supposed to. It's based on emotion and the rationales shift to fit whatever emotional state the feminists find themselves in (when it comes to black men its generally overly judgmental or spiteful) or whatever argument they are trying to make.

It is definitely good to point out that the Shuri as BP backers could be smaller in numbers than their internet presence would suggest, as well as to note that there are also T'Challa backers on the internet too. However, the Shuri side aligns with the pop cultural trend of greater (black) female representation and 'empowerment' so even if those actual numbers might be small, it's backed up by Hollywood and the media in a way that those pushing for a recast, or more positive black male depictions in general are not. Despite the disappointments and even outright flops from this kind of feminist genre entertainment (which even female moviegoers, etc. are not always keen on), Hollywood is hellbent on shoveling more at us, to eventually make us accept it. As much as I admire Margot Robbie as an actress, (and putting her advantages of being an attractive blonde aside) why was she given the Pirates franchise after the performance of her Harley Quinn movie? And why is Ava DuVernay still a thing when it comes to movies? Or that Hollywood blames the failures of feminist marketed genre/action films on male moviegoers, even when men do support some of those films? Because it's about more than money, they are pushing an idea, and they are going to keep pushing it until, or unless, they fall off a financial cliff consistently.

Warner/DC should've been looking at a Vixen film, to get some of that BP shine, and could've beaten Marvel to the punch again like they did with Wonder Woman. Aquaman took inspiration from BP and that got them a billion. On the small screen they've done some nice things with Vixen. I liked her in the Justice League cartoon, and in her own cartoon. Plus they've added to the Vixen mythos in the Arrowverse, creating a line of Vixens, where before I think she was just a singular heroine. I don't think Vixen's world is as fleshed out or as fantastic as BP's but they can build on that. DC Africa does have Gorilla Grodd and Gorilla City and its own African heroes, like the original Batwing. I enjoyed the Vixen graphic novel "Return of the Lion" and if they take that for inspiration that's a good place to begin.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 05:09:52 am by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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Here's why I don't like what Feige said.

None of the these characters have ANY source material, history, consistency or major relevance to draw From.

Shuri? Vastly different from her comic version. Disney teenage princess vs stone cold adult queen. But due to lack of  development and direction, she is a weird hybrid in comics. Nothing really to draw from. Nakia? In name only. Last time we saw her was in BP Wakanda forever, and she looked like a stereotyped crack wh**e. And Coates version was some traitor. Both versions are dead. Okoye? She is the only one on the list who is  true to her comic version. However, she only came back due to the MCU and she has Zero anything to draw from. M'Baku,? Same in name only, is a Villain, and has a horribly outdated and frankly racist name and outfit. W'kabi? Dead.

So none of these characters have anything to go from, they are all essentially Brand New characters added to the franchise. Which is fine to do, however, you cannot use them to drive a pre-existing franchise with a 54 year published title lead character WITHOUT said character and expect it to be successful or even in good taste. Especially when this character is the only one with stories to adapt form and explore and the character has plenty more character journey and arc to explore.

The other problem is that Feiges words aren't words that indicate we will see T'Challa again on the near future. They seem hellbent on "honoring" a trailblazer by shutting down any opportunity for anyone to follow in his footsteps to continue the characters much deserved and very important journey.

The thing I really hate when people try to use that argument about hating black women is that they say that, while thinking it's perfectly okay to replace black men and not flinch (when Black men are also poorly represented as well) and think it's cool. Instead of demanding that Black women get pushed as well there is a need to cannibalize Black men (and vice versa) instead of celebrating success.

Black panther did more for equal positive representation that literally any other movie in the last several decade's or of all time and instead of celebrating we get people trying to cannibalize it for no other reason than to check off a diversity box and further continue this cycle of infighting.

They ignore the history behind the character and are willing to throw ANY (not a specific equal important character, just anyone will do) into the role just so they say they are represented. That is asking for crumbs. That is what Finn became just some Black character to check off diversity and he was utter garbage due to poor writing.

Unfortunately the wording used by Feige doesn't inspire confidence


I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but I doubt that the 54 year publishing history of BP means much to Feige, Marvel Studios, or Disney. Those stories can relatively easy be adapted for the Wakandan characters they have without T'Challa. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Monica Lynn just wasn't made Shuri's girlfriend. We don't know the deal with Captain Marvel yet, and Marvel has yet to have a lead LGBTQ hero. Black Panther 2 could very well be their first.

It reminds me of how Wesley's Blade was more popular than anything they did with him in the comics, beforehand, or after really. But the comics did change-but not enough-to fit Wesley. We've already seen the comics take on the aesthetics of the first BP film, and you mentioned how its used some of the characters. We could get new stories to be the grist for future films that have the new takes on the characters.



These are all terrific points. I agree with the great majority of them...


...but I think that making money supersedes all other concerns in business. Because? That's business's #1 Rule, and ALWAYS WILL BE.

The #1 Rule is what's going to guide Feige, and will be a major concern for Feige. Have you considered that it's a big thing, a very important thing, to come busting out of the economic malaise that we're currently in with blockbuster successes in the movies? Have you considered that BP 2 underperforming [ grossing under $600 mill ] could lead to a domino affect which could spread to other tentpole movies and cast a slowing or chilling effect on an economy that needs to be going gangbusters b y then, if the theater experience is to be resurrected?

You made a GREAT POINT about Black female led tentpoles...THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY. So in THAT capacity? Shuri led BP grossing $500 million+...which it will, I'm betting, because I'm going to support the sistahs and so will about 50 million of us worldwide...would be a MASSIVE SUCCESS that could be spun as what it is. The world's FIRST AND ONLY, RECORD BREAKING, TOWERING SUCCESS BY A BLACK WOMAN LEADING A MAJOR FRANCHISE.

But it's STILL UNDERPERFORMANCE in the $ and cents bottom line. And that bottom line? Is THEE bottom line. Shareholders will be looking at how they made HALF OR LESS with Shuri than they did with Chadwick. And that, family, will bring back T'Challa. I'm tryin tuh toldja.  In fact? The trepidations they have about us will play in our favor in this small way: they'll be loathe to veer from a billion dollar plus netting, surefire winning formula. Even if Shuri rocks her own BP 2 as her audition and litmus test for leading her own trilogy [ which is what I expect this will be, and it might even be part of the multiproperty litmus test for A FORCE, the all WOMEN Avengers ] and she rocks BP 2? Even if they decide to make Shuri BLACK PANTHER? It's just not going to work in the multibillion dollar and sense bottom line without T'Challa.

And if you think that social optics is important to the pockets of the Disney shareholders as losing HALF A BILLION DOLLARS is? My brutha. I have to assure you that it isn't. That half a billie dollar difference? Is all the difference needed to be sure that T'Challa comes back.

A movie with Wright in the lead? Is a vastly different movie than with Chadwick in the lead. We'll be treated to a personality with a lot more sparkle in it than Robert Downey Jr's Tony Starks and personality and a TONY STARK like inventor's approach...done with #blackgirlmagic. It'd be historic, and get lots of props socially.

And still bring in barely more than half of what Chadwick rocked. And Shuri BP will bring in LESS than JDW BP+SHURI in BP 3.

Cash Rules Everything Around Me. C.R.E.A.M. git the $. Dolla dolla biiiillls, y'allll!!!

Thanks. I appreciate your insight here, however I disagree that it's only about money. Money is very important and in the long run could be the determining factor overall, when it comes right down to the bottom line. However, there's more at work here, and as I wrote above, pushing ideas is a big part of this. Ant-Man had a disappointing sequel, but they are making a third film. The only reason they didn't do a sequel to the relatively financially disappointing Incredible Hulk is because of their deal with Universal. And Feige is going woke at a time when the culture warring makes that an unpredictable move to make, so it's not just about money. If it was just about money he would keep Hemsworth as Thor (to be fair that might happen at the end of Thor 4, though I think it would be very hard to extricate both Jane Foster and Valkyrie, though I could see them keeping Valkyrie as king, so that allows them to have a black woman supposedly bossing Thor around).

And while I do think money is very important, but so are ideas, I also feel you are assuming that BP2 with Wright as BP is going to underperform in a major way. I don't see why that would happen. The ensemble cast was popular, Wright stood out among them, and this film will have the marketing machine of Disney behind it. We are going to get hit with all the emotional stories about Mr. Boseman's passing and tributes to him, while also being ladled with celebratory article after article or interview after interview, all kind of thought pieces about what Shuri as BP means for black women and girls and representation. Shuri as BP will be hailed as history making, which it would be, and as I wrote before, aligns with this Kamala moment with undeniable synergy. The first BP built up a lot of goodwill and a lot of people, not just black folks but especially black folks, who will be determined to see BP2 succeed, it's become a part of who we are, and like A. Curry was saying, in a lot of ways (for those non-comic book readers) Wakanda is bigger than T'Challa in their minds. It's a dream made 'real' or close enough. It's become such a part of us that T.I. could evoke Wakanda in an attempt to quell rioting in Atlanta this past summer. Kamala Harris even did a Colbert skit where she claimed she was the Senator from Wakanda, and has posed in front of a BP poster. The idea that BP2 would do Ant-Man numbers, I don't buy it. Recast or Shuri as BP, or another female character as BP, the sequel is going to make bank. I'm not sure it will make as much or more than the first movie, but it will be close unless it's atrocious and the word of mouth is awful and Ryan Coogler has yet to make a bad film.

If it was just about money they would recast T'Challa. Denzel's son is rising in Hollywood, his star is hotter than Letitia Wright's, Lupita's, or Danai Gurira's right now, but they are not recasting and Denzel's son was not chosen. Money wise that would make sense, but Feige has other ideas. To be fair, it's cheaper on Disney's end to go with the actors they have under contract now, plus he might have doubts about if the audience would accept another actor in the T'Challa role, but still black male as T'Challa got them a billion bucks versus going with a black female lead, which is unprecedented. But a black male-led film hadn't made a billion before Black Panther (Will Smith was the closest to my knowledge) so that was unprecedented as well. With Captain Marvel making a billion, and I imagine Wonder Woman 1984 would've, it makes good enough money sense, while pushing wokeness, for Feige to have a black female-led Panther sequel.

Further, I think about why certain people, like George Clooney keep getting these big, acclaimed projects when his box office draw is debatable, or why (I hate to say it) Idris Elba is still a thing when so far he hasn't successfully led a franchise or done much for the ones he has been involved in when it comes to box office? It's not only about money. Hollywood has favorites, just like they have favorite ideas, and they will push both regardless of the box office, unless it's catastrophic, and if they are white actors, it might take a string of flops or one very big, public debacle, before they will change plans.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 05:39:01 am by Emperorjones »

Offline A.Curry

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Salutations Mr. Curry. This missive serves to inform you that you failed to reply to Post #3355 sent Yesterday at 09:08:43 pm. While we at the Wakandan Office of State recognize this was just a minor oversight on your part, we would appreciate your feedback. We thank you in advance and await your response.

WAKANDA FOREVER



Most everything in that post I already addressed in one way or another in my other posts, and even in my last.  As for female inclusion, hey, I agree with you.  I don’t think going forth with Shuri as BP for “greater female inclusion” is necessary.  I never cared for Shuri nor thought she was ever necessary in the first place.  And I liked the original concept of the Dora way better. 

My point was that the “black feminist and WOKE” creatives is going to take all advantage of this, writers like Vita Ayala and others who have been way more interested in the supporting women characters of Wakanda, fans online who are all for Shuri being BP and NOT recasting TChalla who argue “she took the mantle in the comics, so it was gonna happen anyway” and “anyone can be black Panther” and “let a QUEEN rule” and so forth.  Those who are for recasting and saying TChalla’s story was not finished being told are being shamed for not being okay with Shuri taking the mantle.  (Funny enough, it seems it’s mostly black women and white men who are doing this and for Shuri taking the mantle and letting TChalla die with Boseman.  I do see this as related to Coogler expanding so greatly on the other characters, especially the female ones, in the franchise and now? The writers who have not been very interested in TChalla and moreso in Shuri, Okoye, and others will have their chance.  All I’m saying. 

As for Harry Potter, there were plenty of arguments about how more black people needed to be in the franchise, and there has been a heavy movement since the movies in making Hermione black, saying she was like a white girl who used “black girl magic” and there have been theatrical productions where they’ve made Hermione black.  Lol there’s even a spoken word video on how Hermione is really a black girl.  And Rowling is cool with it,  Guarantee you, if they ever redo Potter Hermione will be a black girl.

But you can’t replace “Harry Potter” because that’s literally who he is.  Apparently, again, Black Panther can be anyone. So can Batman, but Bruce Wayne is so tied pathologically to the character it would be hard to do.  And he always comes back,  In the current MCU, hey are letting TChalla die with Boseman,  they likely will follow suit in the comics too.


Mr. Curry, thank you for the prompt reply. May I call you A.? I am in agreement with you on the original concept of the Dora Milaje. Just tweek it a bit. Two age appropriate women who are going to marry the king. A queen, of course, would have the Doro Milaje and two age appropriate men she was intent on marrying.

What is your opinion A. on why “black feminists and WOKE” creatives are so interested in Black Panther with such fervor. Surely their time could be better spent working on...









Why aren't “black feminists and WOKE” creatives storming Themyscira?



Simple. And for various reasons.  Most of the characters you have above don’t have the same cultural importance, power, world, or impact that BP and the world of Wakanda does. What’s Monica Rambeau or Misty Knight or Vixen compared to a black Disney princess who is also the tech leader in the world’s most advanced and all black civilization?  Especially one who, in the comics, had the mantle before and can again? Or a bald, black, female general who leads her own all black female army in that same world? Who cares about Wonder Woman and her mostly white amazons when you’ve already got it’s equivalent ready made in wondrous Wakanda? The playing field is vast and already there and ripe for the stories they want to tell.  Hell, it’s the same reason we are more interested in Black Panther than we are Falcon or War Machine.  And why the hell has Marvel not gotten Night Thrasher out of slumber if it’s so much about diversity truly?

Also, Marvel with it’s heavy focus over the last few years on diversity and inclusion has swung open those gates for women of color, but especially black women and especially with Black Panther.  Starting with the feminist and woke slant that Ta-Nehesi took, and all the social fanfare and goodwill a writer of his stature created, it bought in Roxanne Gay, Yona Harvey, Nnedi Okorafor, and who knows how many other black feminist woke writers to work on this, with, as Ezyo said I believe, Vita Ayala being the one of the moment.  Vita, who is millennial, black and Hispanic, gender neutral, and gay. Lol...get ready for Shuri to explore all this in the comics. Not like her (or “their”, as I believe “they” will be referred to soon) sexuality has been defined yet. 

None of these writers have shown much interest in T’Challa as much as they have the supporting characters.  Also, funny, none of them from what I know have been asked or shown interest in even writing Wonder Woman, Ms. Marvel, Misty Knight, or others. Wakanda, not necessarily Black Panther but Wakanda, is where it’s at.  (That being said, there is a new Wonder Woman being introduced that is a “woman of color”)

Also, as others made a good point on here, it’s not always about the money.  There is a paradigm shift happening in popular and social culture right now and a lot of it is focusing on black people with the advent of BLM and all (started by black, woke women) but a heavy shift on that is on academic, educated black women in particular.  Black women creatives, activists, politicians, and so forth are hot right now and with a “black” woman one step away from the presidency now, it’s made even bigger.  “Black girl magic” is everywhere, even with a new 007 as one.  And to a certain extent, it’s being done along with the demonizing and dismissal of black men quite a bit.

 And who would benefit moreso by letting die the most powerful black male comics character in comics, period, and letting a “less threatening” woman take over?  White men. It’s no coincidence to me that the major people I see wanting no recast and Shuri to take the mantle are mostly black women and white men


Again the demand for Shuri taking the mantle comes from a insular perspective and is vocal in certain spheres orbiting in the ether-verse. There are other domains in cyberspace insistent on maintaining the status quo concerning Black Panther. With regards to Harry Potter it wouldn't take much to produce Harriet Potter or create a new character with the same birth right as her predecessor and be the first woman to be a wizard at Hogswart. Kind of like what they may do to James Bond.


I think you’re underestimating that demand for Shuri, also the woke politics that are going along with it and the goodwill it can buy.  Again, if the case were different Feige would just recast.  Or hold off for awhile.  Don’t tell me this is all out of SO much respect for Boseman when there are ways you can spin it to recast and show Boseman respect.

As for Potter, true.  But at that point you’re creating a whole other character with no history behind it, you’re just changing his sex. They’d probably do better just giving Hermione her own movie, who was almost if not just as popular as Harry in the movies and books.  But that’s the difference, Black Panther is a mantle, Harry Potter is an actual person.  And it’s too easy for a Shuri to just take on that mantle wherein changing Harry’s sex would be more complicated.
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« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 08:04:04 am by A.Curry »

Offline Ezyo

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honestly I think Feige and Disney think that if BP gotn1 billion with a Black male led, the sequel Will do the same with a Black female lead as it covers the same diversity as the first with the extra exposure of the first Black female lead super hero. I'm all for Black female super heros.. just not at the expense of black males. Especially when they are taking over a franchise that is not theirs prematurely. It would be one thing if T'Challas trilogy was complete. I would be fine with Shuri taking over that that point to further explore Wakanda. However, this whole premature ripping the title character away from his franchise that he soley upheld for decades without any help from supporting cast characters, I feel this is a huge disservice and an insult to such an important character. I want the franchise to be successful, I DON'T want it to try and do so by subverting it's title character and using his stories and his characteristics for essentially Brand New characters. That's cheating T'Challa out for no good reason other than greed and shady agendas