Author Topic: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?  (Read 33879 times)

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2015, 08:13:01 pm »
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

Offline Salustrade

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2015, 08:22:03 pm »
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2015, 08:45:54 pm »
The truest thing Wakandan he's written is the shame and embarrassment exhibited by Shuri and their ancestors.  T'Challa's actions more than justify Wakanda's historical xenophobic and isolationist stance.

Peace,

Mont

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2015, 10:16:33 pm »
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:


Remember this when TChalla is stomping heads.

I'm actually quite surprised that...given the massive IQ of the people here...heads can't see beyond the big ostentatious stuff right in front of our faces.
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Offline Moose100

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2015, 11:39:50 pm »
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:


Remember this when TChalla is stomping heads.

I'm actually quite surprised that...given the massive IQ of the people here...heads can't see beyond the big ostentatious stuff right in front of our faces.

The thing is he could be doing that LATER but NOW his showing is pretty bad. There's a difference in building up to this point that we want to see and giving him something better. later doesn't stop me from pointing out what's going on now. I like the story overall bit this is a problem.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2015, 12:56:37 am »
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:


Remember this when TChalla is stomping heads.

I'm actually quite surprised that...given the massive IQ of the people here...heads can't see beyond the big ostentatious stuff right in front of our faces.

The thing is he could be doing that LATER but NOW his showing is pretty bad. There's a difference in building up to this point that we want to see and giving him something better. later doesn't stop me from pointing out what's going on now. I like the story overall bit this is a problem.

Good points. Can't argue that.
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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2015, 11:10:23 am »
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:


Remember this when TChalla is stomping heads.

I'm actually quite surprised that...given the massive IQ of the people here...heads can't see beyond the big ostentatious stuff right in front of our faces.

The thing is he could be doing that LATER but NOW his showing is pretty bad. There's a difference in building up to this point that we want to see and giving him something better. later doesn't stop me from pointing out what's going on now. I like the story overall bit this is a problem.

Good points. Can't argue that.

What I don't understand my dear brother S.I. is your willingness to accept the product we are getting right now!?!  Diminished returns for the promise of a brighter future has never truly worked out well for the aspirations of minorities in the history of the world!  Yet, you seem to have bought in to whatever carrot you've been given despite the great imagination you have displayed on countless occasions? 

You cast shade on the I.Q. of the vocal minority yet when Moose adroitly summed up the anti Hickman-Panther argument in a concise few sentences you (appropriately) laud him!?! My I.Q. is just a tad above pedestrian so it may come as no surprise that I just don't get you on this?  Howewver, there are some obviously heady dudes here who agree with me.

I'm sure there are others who agree with you.  Nonetheless, this need not descend into some HEF-Wakandan civil war.  For my part, I don't like what Hickman has done to T'Challa, Wakanda, Namor, Strange, Stark......  I don't like the never ending, fan abusive incursion plot, I thought "Infinity" was a little better even though I didn't like the off-panel action or how T'Challa was being portrayed even then.  I especially don't like being strung along with the promise of a competent, relevant T'Challa only to see him and Wakanda lashed to a withered portrayal intended to appease a majority.

That however, is between me, those who think like me and Hickman/Marvel.  We should keep it that way.  I like and respect my dear brother S.I. who I have a lot in common with, none the least of which is an abiding affinity for T'Challa and Wakanda.

Peace,

Mont

Offline Blanks

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2015, 12:51:05 pm »
Post Secret War, we don't know which Panther we're getting. Since there are so many different realities being merged on Battleworld, whose to say that the Panther that will be present going forward will be the deconstructed Panther we've been getting?

Since they are picking different eras as well for Battle World, The Panther we get may be pre Doomwar Panther, maybe even pre-Reggie Panther. Hell, for all we know, we could get Happy-Pants Panther back. All of these stories go back to the Age of Ultron and Wolverine breaking time. Marvel more than likely is going to take this opportunity to pick and choose the "Iconic" versions of characters to use from a certain point in their time and popularity.

Example, you didn't like the"Brand New Day" era of Spider-Man? No problem! From here on out, The Spidy we're using is plucked from the Civil War.

That said, Marvel could have given Hickman to do 'what thou will'. We may not like it, but if that is what Hickan is doing, so be it. Panther and Namor may both die after this event. It wouldn't surprise me at this point. If they do, then perhaps the Panther and cast chosen would be from an era in Panther history where it is still strong.

We can count out a married Panther/Storm union, so if the Time displaced Panther we get is from before the Marriage, I think we'd be in a place where the Panther status quo would be acceptable. All of the awesome and none of the deconstruction.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2015, 08:01:17 pm »
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:


Remember this when TChalla is stomping heads.

I'm actually quite surprised that...given the massive IQ of the people here...heads can't see beyond the big ostentatious stuff right in front of our faces.

The thing is he could be doing that LATER but NOW his showing is pretty bad. There's a difference in building up to this point that we want to see and giving him something better. later doesn't stop me from pointing out what's going on now. I like the story overall bit this is a problem.

Good points. Can't argue that.

What I don't understand my dear brother S.I. is your willingness to accept the product we are getting right now!?!  Diminished returns for the promise of a brighter future has never truly worked out well for the aspirations of minorities in the history of the world!  Yet, you seem to have bought in to whatever carrot you've been given despite the great imagination you have displayed on countless occasions? 

I see what is happening right now with BP as a very clear writing technique. It's a combination of ideas and methods that very good writers use, combined with tricks feints and dodges ON THE READER. Remember when we were sold NA as a whodunnit? I think it's more of a horror psych-suspense, character study, mystery mashup with a bit of action romance and stuff mixed in.

If I thought that Hickman would deconstruct TChalla and leave him in Suckaville? I'd throw him over right now. If I thought that Hickman would permanently reduce the quality of the franchise that is TChalla, instead of essentially give him a restart [ like the rest of the MU is getting ] that simultaneously aligns him as the badass we see in the movies [ his badassery is already guaranteed in the movies ]? I'd throw him over before Time could start. But. Hickman is doing some amazing things, and I have seen...not his end game...but the building blocks from the parts I care most about.

The "TChalla shall be a universally acknowledged true badass intro'd into the core of the MU from this point forward" part.

I know that much of TChalla's continuity will be jettisoned. I won't love that. But the overall reformation of TChalla will make him central to Marvel and give him a new platform from which writers like the present and future CJPs, RH's, McDuffies, Greviouxs, etc can truly weave a compelling, hardcore Black Panther and NOT catch static for it. That's what's best for BP. Whatever route takes us there? I'm down with it. I absolutely don't love every twist and turn. But. I keep my Eyes On The Prize. Crossing that finish line for BP? Will change the outlook for GENERATIONS of kids of color.

I've seen this kind of thing before...but I've never seen all of these elements combined and spun with such intricate gargantuan imagination scope and attention to detail in any picture book anywhere before.
[/b]

You cast shade on the I.Q. of the vocal minority yet when Moose adroitly summed up the anti Hickman-Panther argument in a concise few sentences you (appropriately) laud him!?! My I.Q. is just a tad above pedestrian so it may come as no surprise that I just don't get you on this?  Howewver, there are some obviously heady dudes here who agree with me.

I would never cast shade on the collective I.Q. of the vocal minority here. I respect yall too much even when I disagree. I also said...many times...that I don't have a problem with anyone who puts the book down for their own reasons. And like I said? There are significant areas that I differ with Hickman on. But see...I'm not caping for Hickman. I'm caping for TChalla. Biiig difference. And TChalla being reintro'd MU wide as a genuine badass, part of the Avengers, and pushed strongly for the next 5 years i nblockbuster movies with worldwide appeal and impact=good for TChalla. And TChalla the comic product will get the same thing. That=good for TChalla. Therefore anyone who scripts the path for him arriving there, and even starting the path to get there? That person=good for TChalla.

I'm sure there are others who agree with you.  Nonetheless, this need not descend into some HEF-Wakandan civil war.  For my part, I don't like what Hickman has done to T'Challa, Wakanda, Namor, Strange, Stark......  I don't like the never ending, fan abusive incursion plot, I thought "Infinity" was a little better even though I didn't like the off-panel action or how T'Challa was being portrayed even then.  I especially don't like being strung along with the promise of a competent, relevant T'Challa only to see him and Wakanda lashed to a withered portrayal intended to appease a majority.

I understand that. I'm not mad at all . Good arguments. But. The story isn't done yet. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you have concluded that the story of Hickman's has already reaches beyond your willingness to invest in it. Perfectly cool with me. I understand that. But. There is a significant danger of judging the whole story by the snippet that we've read thus far. We have at least one more year...if not two...of these kinds of stories to rock. SECRET WARS...which seems to be the set up to what probably/maybe is the all action Battleworld...are each 12 issues, right? I think I'm right about that. Didn't check though, so I could be wrong. But...if so? We're looking at 2 more years of fleshing out positioning and plots being tied up to set up for even more staggering stuff.  Sooo...stopping your ride is cool. But whatever picture that is formed now purely based on the books thus far published are literally premature

Remember when all those "fans" would absolutely lose their minds when CJP first wrote TChalla as this scheming badass? Remember how they howled like madmen about TChalla's tech. Remember how they cried foul and Mary Stu and whatever else when TChalla ripped Medusa's heart out? And then...CJP would snap shut the mouse traps. And everybody would go:oooohhhhhh I get it nooowwww.

That's what's happening now.

This story MUST carry across years. Real time. Because it takes time to have the movies come out and align the comics with them. And vice versa.This time will be to TChalla's advantage because he will be regularly exposed to a much larger fanbase and he will be built up more and more as his movie debut comes on us. No, he won't be the main foucs. He shouldn't be. No it won't be the way we prefer it. In a PERFECT WORLD it SHOULD be CLOSER to how we like it, but it WON'T be. So let's not sweat that. Be disappointed. Bail on Hickman if you want to. Diss all you like. But sooner later...prolly much later, if you throw over the book and don't check in on BP after the movie drops...everyone will realize that TChalla will be better for it. And I'm right. This prediction right here? Not even hard. They already told us this is happening like that. 


That however, is between me, those who think like me and Hickman/Marvel.  We should keep it that way.  I like and respect my dear brother S.I. who I have a lot in common with, none the least of which is an abiding affinity for T'Challa and Wakanda.


I like you too and have the greatest respect for you, brother Mont. The same holds true for ALL the HEFfas. Overall, we agree way more on the crucial elements than we disagree on the minor stuff. I always strive to keep this in mind during our discussions.

Peace,

Mont
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Offline Happy Pants

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2015, 08:51:24 pm »
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2015, 11:47:42 pm »
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

I like TChalla. I dislike many things that Hickman and Mayberry put him through. But I know that the end result is...badass TChalla. Forevermore. So...I'm down with that part.
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2015, 05:31:03 am »
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

I like TChalla. I dislike many things that Hickman and Mayberry put him through. But I know that the end result is...badass TChalla. Forevermore. So...I'm down with that part.

Since Hickman is not going to around after Secret Wars, whatever he does to BP; good or ill, is just a vapor.  Unless he has been given direction by the next writer of BP and he is writing BP to fit the new writer's plan, then really, nothing he does is going to stick. (Unless, the next writer likes it.)

Offline Salustrade

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2015, 05:47:35 am »
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

I like TChalla. I dislike many things that Hickman and Mayberry put him through. But I know that the end result is...badass TChalla. Forevermore. So...I'm down with that part.

Dude, I know I said I no longer had a desire to engage with you on this subject but....Damn!

The level of caping you've done for Hickman so far has now reached Rutog98 levels of delusion.

As Happy Pants and many other posters have pointed out, Hickman has written T'Challa as an obtuse traitor to the Wakandan aesthetic that kept that nation inviolate from external enemies for millenia and as te NA saga unfolds and Wakanda lays in smouldering ruins with the loss of millions of Wakandan lives and the death of Shuri, the only Black Panther worth a damn, I really find your unswerving defence of Hickman's disgraceful handling of the BP mythos in really bad taste.

Hickman has done more damage to the BP mythos than Jonathan Maberry who also claimed to be a "fan" of the character before he proceeded to rob Wakanda of Vibranium chump out T'Challa and Ororo and have Bast betray T'Challa and Wakanda by endorsing Doom's plundering of Wakanda and utter humiliation of T'Challa and Co.

There is nothing in Hickman's treatment of T'Challa that indicates an understanding of te character or his world let alone that he even has an real appreciation for the superior character work put in by actual giants such as Reginald Hudlin, CJP, McDuffie and David Liss who actually got T'Challa's characteristics down pat.

Hickman has turned T'Challa into an inneffectual joke character tat no reader in their right mind could ever take seriously but the only person in the proverbial room that doesn't seem to have gotten this memo is you. :smh:

Offline Salustrade

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2015, 05:58:20 am »
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

I like TChalla. I dislike many things that Hickman and Mayberry put him through. But I know that the end result is...badass TChalla. Forevermore. So...I'm down with that part.

Since Hickman is not going to around after Secret Wars, whatever he does to BP; good or ill, is just a vapor.  Unless he has been given direction by the next writer of BP and he is writing BP to fit the new writer's plan, then really, nothing he does is going to stick. (Unless, the next writer likes it.)

Have an of the negative things that other writers have done with T'Challa not stuck to the character like a bad smell?

Why will any of the additional deconstruction tat Hickman has heaped on T'Challa not stick?

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2015, 06:18:17 am »
Actually I was referring to the outcome that SI is expecting.   He feels Hickman is going to bring BP  to a superior state.   My point is,  unless the next writer is directing this outcome,  the next BP writer could  ignore that and do worse and turn him into Ultimate BP who is mute.