Author Topic: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?  (Read 12937 times)

Online JRCarter

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Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« on: February 09, 2015, 10:21:08 am »
It all started with Roy Thomas in the Avengers.

Some might argue that Don McGregor had diminished him somewhat.

Then we had Jonathan Maberry with Doomwar.

Now, we've got Jonathan Hickman, who has actually destroyed Wakanda.

Which one would you say has diminished him the most?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:00:45 pm by JRCarter »

Offline Francisco

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2015, 12:18:17 pm »
Roy Thomas no doubt about it. Despite everything the other guys did to T'Challa he still was a scientist. Roy Thomas turned him into a glorified acrobat.
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Offline Salustrade

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2015, 01:01:17 pm »
Roy Thomas was the OG but Maberry and Hickman have between the both of them put the final nail in the coffin of the BP mythos.

Offline Booshman

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2015, 01:57:05 pm »
Roy Thomas. No question.

He took away BP's trait as a H2H fighter, because Cap was in the Avengers. And then he took away the genius inventor trait, because Tony was there. But Mayberry definltely (and Hickman, if he's doesn't stop writing BP in this ridiculous manner) gets an honorable mention.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2015, 02:32:45 pm »
Roy Thomas. No question.

He took away BP's trait as a H2H fighter, because Cap was in the Avengers. And then he took away the genius inventor trait, because Tony was there. But Mayberry definltely (and Hickman, if he's doesn't stop writing BP in this ridiculous manner) gets an honorable mention.

Bro, Hickman has destroyed Wakanda, killed of shuri and made a nonsense out of T'Challa in the here and now so forget what Roy Thomas did back in the 70's.

It's the here and now that matters
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:03:22 pm by Salustrade »

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2015, 06:36:19 pm »
Hickman isn't the first person to "destroy" Wakanda And then bring out back at the end of the story.  Busiek,  Fabian N. bought write stores where the villain reshaped the entire world , including Wakanda, into the villain's play thing.   (Morgana Le Fey and Lady Sphinx). But when the story ended,  it was all back to normal.   Stalin enslaved the earth, including Wakanda then destroyed the universe in Marvel Universe: The End.  Then he put it all back. Until we see the end of this story,  we don't know if he intends Wakanda 's destruction or Shuri's death to be permanent.

Offline KidKamikaze10

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2015, 07:49:47 pm »
Hickman isn't the first person to "destroy" Wakanda And then bring out back at the end of the story.  Busiek,  Fabian N. bought write stores where the villain reshaped the entire world , including Wakanda, into the villain's play thing.   (Morgana Le Fey and Lady Sphinx). But when the story ended,  it was all back to normal.   Stalin enslaved the earth, including Wakanda then destroyed the universe in Marvel Universe: The End.  Then he put it all back. Until we see the end of this story,  we don't know if he intends Wakanda 's destruction or Shuri's death to be permanent.

Fraction outright killed T'Challa like a punk and I think destroyed Wakanda too.  As did Bendis.  Both of them reverted it.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2015, 08:07:32 pm »
Hickman isn't the first person to "destroy" Wakanda And then bring out back at the end of the story.  Busiek,  Fabian N. bought write stores where the villain reshaped the entire world , including Wakanda, into the villain's play thing.   (Morgana Le Fey and Lady Sphinx). But when the story ended,  it was all back to normal.   Stalin enslaved the earth, including Wakanda then destroyed the universe in Marvel Universe: The End.  Then he put it all back. Until we see the end of this story,  we don't know if he intends Wakanda 's destruction or Shuri's death to be permanent.

Fraction outright killed T'Challa like a punk and I think destroyed Wakanda too.  As did Bendis.  Both of them reverted it.

Hickman however, has written T'Challa as a fool whose actions led to the utter decimation of Wakanda so as far as I'm concerned, he's done the most damage to the character as well as totally disrespected Reginald Hudlin's run by killing Shuri.

Online Kimoyo

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2015, 08:23:37 pm »
Hickman isn't the first person to "destroy" Wakanda And then bring out back at the end of the story.  Busiek,  Fabian N. bought write stores where the villain reshaped the entire world , including Wakanda, into the villain's play thing.   (Morgana Le Fey and Lady Sphinx). But when the story ended,  it was all back to normal.   Stalin enslaved the earth, including Wakanda then destroyed the universe in Marvel Universe: The End.  Then he put it all back. Until we see the end of this story,  we don't know if he intends Wakanda 's destruction or death to be permanent.

All of which is/was comparatively, very obscure in scope and duration to "Time (never) Runs Out."  T'Challa was more of a contributor under Roy Thomas' pen, without ever witlessly putting Wakanda in danger of annihilation.  Also, T'Challa was more of a fish out of water as part of Thomas' Avengers, in a much simpler era of storytelling.  Priest, with creative ingenuity grounded in common sense, transformed Panther and Hudlin subsequently emboldened the entire nation of Wakanda.  They raised the bar higher even than Stan and Jack's introduction.  Hands down Hickman has done more damage than any other, IMO.

Peace,

Mont

Offline Ture

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2015, 08:35:48 pm »


Jonathan Hickman Public Enemy No. 1



Jonthan Maberry Public Enemy No. 2
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Offline Salustrade

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2015, 04:56:15 am »
Caping for Hickman is beneath contempt.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2015, 10:01:24 am »
All I am saying is,  Until it is over we don't know what is going on.   For all we know,  this will turn out to be a fake T'challa, or it is all going according to his plan, where no Wakandan has died;  they are all LMDs and the real Wakanda is in a pocket universe.     

True I don't believe it will happen that way.   I think he is very much the kind of writer who believes in destroying heroes to  build them up.  And I wouldn't be surprised if he had been told to clear the board with T' Challa and Wakanda because Marvel wants the comic and the Movies to line up. 

But bottom line is until it is over,  we don't know what his game plan is.   When it is all over,  Then you can say,  he is the worse.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2015, 11:37:46 am »
All I am saying is,  Until it is over we don't know what is going on.   For all we know,  this will turn out to be a fake T'challa, or it is all going according to his plan, where no Wakandan has died;  they are all LMDs and the real Wakanda is in a pocket universe.     

True I don't believe it will happen that way.   I think he is very much the kind of writer who believes in destroying heroes to  build them up.  And I wouldn't be surprised if he had been told to clear the board with T' Challa and Wakanda because Marvel wants the comic and the Movies to line up. 

But bottom line is until it is over,  we don't know what his game plan is.   When it is all over,  Then you can say,  he is the worse.

Anyone who writes T'Challa as an out of character moron while farming out all of his established traits and prep-time strategic traits to Reed Richards is definitely not someone I'd qualify as being the best.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2015, 12:02:56 pm »
Never said he was the best.   He isn't even the best Avengers writer, or FF writer.  Or close to it.

At least he is making up for how bad he wrote Reed in the FF.  In his FF run,  Reed was always two steps behind his toddler daughter,  his father and the adult version of his children.

And Reed had always been ten steps ahead of everyone until modern writers started making him flawed,  introvert who it's out of touch, absent minded, etc.  Orginally he was "the most interesting man in the world. " type of character.   People forget originally Reed was a sucessful soldier, and a martial arts expert.   When was the last time you saw Reed written as an ex-soldier.  In this case, he didn't farm out BP skills to Reed; he reclaimed what Reed originally was.  Funny thing is that he didn't write Reed that way in his own comic.

Online Kimoyo

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2015, 03:50:27 pm »
I can't get with this, 'wait and see how it ends...' mentality.  We are not talking about a four or six issue arc (and don't forget how we were rewarded for our patience during DoomWar)!

This has been dragging out for years.  What we have is what we have.  No matter what some writer comes along and pulls out of an a$& to undo what Hickman's done (if that even happens) we still experienced, paid for (some of it anyway) and agonized over the destruction of T'Challa and Wakanda in real time over the course of years!  "Okay, it was all a fanboy dream sequence, Wakanda was never destroyed" doesn't relieve that frustration or give me that time and money back.  I can unequivocally say right now, Hickman has been the worse!

My two cents.

Peace,

Mont