Author Topic: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?  (Read 12258 times)

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2015, 04:08:30 pm »
I am not saying it will reward us for our patience.   Actually,  I doubt  most here will be happy,  but I just don't think you can know until it is over with.   Suspect it,  have confidence,  yes,  But for all we know T'challa is on the last page waking up from the surgery to remove the tumor Priest have him.  And everything been a dream.

Plus,  I wonder if this is all Hickman or is he under orders to do some of these things?  Did he decide to destroy Atilla and release the gas creating more Inhumans or was he told to do that as Marvel movies change the importance of the Inhumans? Did he choose to kill Shuri or was he told to by the next BP writer?

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2015, 04:57:26 pm »
I am not saying it will reward us for our patience.   Actually,  I doubt  most here will be happy,  but I just don't think you can know until it is over with.   Suspect it,  have confidence,  yes,  But for all we know T'challa is on the last page waking up from the surgery to remove the tumor Priest have him.  And everything been a dream.

Plus,  I wonder if this is all Hickman or is he under orders to do some of these things?  Did he decide to destroy Atilla and release the gas creating more Inhumans or was he told to do that as Marvel movies change the importance of the Inhumans? Did he choose to kill Shuri or was he told to by the next BP writer?

Very. Good. Points.  Excellent response.
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Offline KidKamikaze10

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2015, 05:17:45 pm »
I am not saying it will reward us for our patience.   Actually,  I doubt  most here will be happy,  but I just don't think you can know until it is over with.   Suspect it,  have confidence,  yes,  But for all we know T'challa is on the last page waking up from the surgery to remove the tumor Priest have him.  And everything been a dream.


I totally doubt that, but we do know that Bast's prophecy has to be completed. The whole thing, not just the agonizing parts.  Now, whether that will live up to the years of tragedy, beats me.  It's very possible, but more than anything else, I'm pretty sure Hickman will be known more for the fall than the return to status quo or more. That is, unless he performs some feats in Secret Wars that eclipses anything he's done before.

People focus on the negative, especially when the status quo of the character is usually meant to be positive, and there has been a whole lot of negative done on purpose in this run.

And I say that as someone who is liking it.

Quote
Plus,  I wonder if this is all Hickman or is he under orders to do some of these things?  Did he decide to destroy Atilla and release the gas creating more Inhumans or was he told to do that as Marvel movies change the importance of the Inhumans? Did he choose to kill Shuri or was he told to by the next BP writer?

That's a decent question.  I don't think so though; I think this was is on Hickman. 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 05:19:43 pm by KidKamikaze10 »

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2015, 06:05:56 pm »
Hickman isn't the first person to "destroy" Wakanda And then bring out back at the end of the story.  Busiek,  Fabian N. bought write stores where the villain reshaped the entire world , including Wakanda, into the villain's play thing.   (Morgana Le Fey and Lady Sphinx). But when the story ended,  it was all back to normal.   Stalin enslaved the earth, including Wakanda then destroyed the universe in Marvel Universe: The End.  Then he put it all back. Until we see the end of this story,  we don't know if he intends Wakanda 's destruction or Shuri's death to be permanent.

Exceptional points. And absolutely my argument, too. Except...I missed the Lady Sphinx saga.

Here it is: If Hickman puts TChalla in the basement, keeps Wakanda merked, etc? DESPITE the alleged upgrade that KOTD is supposed to be? Etc? Yeah. Hickman overtakes Maberry by leaps and bounds...but still doesn't trump Roy OR whatshisname from PANTHER'S RAGE. I like the original scriptor whatshisname's passion, but...TChalla talked too damn much. He really did. And he was always getting beat up. And running from here to there. Bleeding. Being noble and getting beat up. Running some more. Nonstop talking. And getting beat up. While being noble and bleeding. And not using ANY of his uberadvanced tech. While he talked too much, got beat, bled a lot, and...ran from place to place.


I can't get with this, 'wait and see how it ends...' mentality.  We are not talking about a four or six issue arc (and don't forget how we were rewarded for our patience during DoomWar)!

This has been dragging out for years.  What we have is what we have.  No matter what some writer comes along and pulls out of an a$& to undo what Hickman's done (if that even happens) we still experienced, paid for (some of it anyway) and agonized over the destruction of T'Challa and Wakanda in real time over the course of years!  "Okay, it was all a fanboy dream sequence, Wakanda was never destroyed" doesn't relieve that frustration or give me that time and money back.  I can unequivocally say right now, Hickman has been the worse!

My two cents.

Peace,

Mont

TChalla has been a chump post intro in F4. It took 20+years for Gillis--who first wrote BP with some swag, in his 4 part miniseries--to give BP some shine.

 And then CJP broke the mold, recast it, and created for all time The Royal Unflappable Man With The Plan, King of Wakanda, Tech Uberchamp, and...as CJP himself put it..."the shrewdest man in the MU."

 And then our Ultimate OG RH built The Unconquered and The Unconquerable Black Panther and Wakanda.

Took 30 years for OUR TChalla to show.

I think asking 3 years to craft a literally MU changing saga that permanently puts our BP as the ultimate badazz he will be in the movies as THEE BP...and spawning a solo series to boot, also championing our ultimate badazz BP, mixing the best of Ultimate BP with 616 BP...is not much to ask. Given what we've already gone through.

Also? Been since 2011 since TChalla was even THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN ALIVE. It's 2015 now. That's 4 years and counting. That's LONGER than what Hickman is asking us to wait.

4 years since we caught hide nor hair nor whiff of TChalla in a solo. 3 years til the MU will embrace TChalla as the very best of combination of every incarnation he's ever had in the 616 and the Ultimate Universe. Plus rock movies to boot. And be UNIVERSALLY embraced as the Batman or Ras-al Ghul of the MU [ here's hoping for Ras-al Ghul, as CJP crafted him ]. Mixed in with THE HARDCORE ESSENCE OF TCHALLA RH BP.

Let's put it another way. Even if you don't wait the 3 years? Cool The 3 years is gonna pass and it's gonna happen anyway. With or without ANY of us. That's the reality.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:09:25 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2015, 06:10:30 pm »
I am not saying it will reward us for our patience.   Actually,  I doubt  most here will be happy,  but I just don't think you can know until it is over with.   Suspect it,  have confidence,  yes,  But for all we know T'challa is on the last page waking up from the surgery to remove the tumor Priest have him.  And everything been a dream.


I totally doubt that, but we do know that Bast's prophecy has to be completed. The whole thing, not just the agonizing parts.  Now, whether that will live up to the years of tragedy, beats me.  It's very possible, but more than anything else, I'm pretty sure Hickman will be known more for the fall than the return to status quo or more. That is, unless he performs some feats in Secret Wars that eclipses anything he's done before.

People focus on the negative, especially when the status quo of the character is usually meant to be positive, and there has been a whole lot of negative done on purpose in this run.

And I say that as someone who is liking it.

Quote
Plus,  I wonder if this is all Hickman or is he under orders to do some of these things?  Did he decide to destroy Atilla and release the gas creating more Inhumans or was he told to do that as Marvel movies change the importance of the Inhumans? Did he choose to kill Shuri or was he told to by the next BP writer?

That's a decent question.  I don't think so though; I think this was is on Hickman.

I am liking this story overall, too...and agree with almost 100% of what you wrote up there.
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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2015, 06:23:47 pm »
I am not saying it will reward us for our patience.   Actually,  I doubt  most here will be happy,  but I just don't think you can know until it is over with.   Suspect it,  have confidence,  yes,  But for all we know T'challa is on the last page waking up from the surgery to remove the tumor Priest have him.  And everything been a dream.

Plus,  I wonder if this is all Hickman or is he under orders to do some of these things?  Did he decide to destroy Atilla and release the gas creating more Inhumans or was he told to do that as Marvel movies change the importance of the Inhumans? Did he choose to kill Shuri or was he told to by the next BP writer?

You are hypothesizing excuses for the dreck we've been offered for years without knowing the endgame.  What's more real?  Am I to see your "half full" glass as more valid than my "half empty" one?  All we have is what's in print.  It can't be wiped from our collective consciousness.  It can only be undone as ridiculously as comic book deaths are resurrected.  Nice try with Priest's aneurysm but play that out and tell me how a three year nightmare raises T'Challa's profile?  Or that Marvel would invest all these books in him including the seemingly inextricable Secret Wars/Battle World?  Just to return him to what, for what?  Couch the prospects for a satisfying third act all you want but acts one and two are still part of the story.  Would you watch it again?  Would you buy the collected tomes?  I wouldn't regardless of how it ends.

No doubt Marvel is complicit in this mess but this is Hickman's grand design right?  The multi-year plan that he pitched.  Most of this dog is at his feet.

Peace,

Mont
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 07:03:07 pm by Kimoyo »

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2015, 06:33:13 pm »
I didn't mean the aneurysm as a literal option, just as a representation that we don't know what is the end game for BP and Wakanda.   Yeah,  if it is garbage,  then there is no pay off.

But we are talking about a storyline where other things have happened that you know are going to be undone.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:39:20 pm by KIP LEWIS »

Offline Ture

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2015, 07:07:38 pm »
Kip, if things are going to be undone then what is the value of doing them in the first place? Especially doing those things that so detract from the essential core values that define and underscore the character.

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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2015, 07:14:47 pm »
Well,


S P O I L E R S......




the deaths of Namor and the Cabal didn't actually get done, right?  T'Challa clearly thinks he succeeded but I believe they escaped to the 1606 Earth.

Peace,

Mont

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2015, 07:24:30 pm »
Kip, if things are going to be undone then what is the value of doing them in the first place? Especially doing those things that so detract from the essential core values that define and underscore the character.

My sentiments exactly!

Peace,

Mont

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2015, 03:33:40 am »
Kip, if things are going to be undone then what is the value of doing them in the first place? Especially doing those things that so detract from the essential core values that define and underscore the character.
because comic book writers, no all writers,  have been doing that for decades.   

For example, Civil War.

In my mind, that story destroyed a lot.  Spider-man revealing his identity to the world, destroyed a fundamental part of the character.  Ripped it to shreds.  And then a year or so later, they undo it.  (I'm convinced that was the plan all along and that's one reason they did it.)  Of course, I know people who thought the marriage destroyed a fundamental characteristic of Spider-man.  And undoing it, fixed it.

I also thought Civil War destroyed friendships for good.  I saw it as completely ruining the friendships between heroes that existed for decades.  Now, Cap and Tony and Thor are buddies like nothing every happened.  Well, until this story,  But it won't last either.

Marvel, DC, etc., always write stories that do something that you think radically destroys or changes something about a character and then undo it.  Sometimes they undo it with some "magical" solution and other times they just ignore it.  (And sometimes they embrace it, like turning Cyclops into something 180 degrees different than the man Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created.)  Only rarely has something happened that truly stained the character, like Hank slapping Jan.  When they wrote that, they thought it would be a minor, one note event.  It destroyed Hank Pym.
 

But until this is over, we don't know if this is one of those, everything goes back to the way it was kind of stories or a status quo changing thing until the next status quo changing event.

What makes this different is you care about this character and don't like what they are doing.  But this is normal storytelling in comics ever since  event-driven, status quo changing has become the norm.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 05:59:38 am by KIP LEWIS »

Offline Metro

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2015, 08:07:28 am »
Well,


S P O I L E R S......




the deaths of Namor and the Cabal didn't actually get done, right?  T'Challa clearly thinks he succeeded but I believe they escaped to the 1606 Earth.

Peace,

Mont

I think T'Challa used Namor as a plant.  The whole story of his hesitation to blow up the planet has not yet been told.
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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2015, 03:42:08 pm »
I suppose that if T'Challa had predicted the surprise incursion and reasoned Namor and the Cabal would need a few minutes to escape to the Ultimate universe which would somehow allow T'Challa to save one version of Wakanda, there could be something to say for that.  But I practically just guaranteed that won't happen and even if it did it wouldn't absolve Hickman of crimes against Wakanda, IMO.

Peace,

Mont

Offline A.Curry

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2015, 04:48:36 pm »
Hickman.

Even Maberry and Thomas didn't have him crying like lil' bitch. 

Offline Mad Coco G

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Re: Which writer diminished T'Challa the most?
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2015, 08:42:22 pm »
Jason Aaron