Author Topic: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome  (Read 16038 times)

Offline Yaw

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2007, 06:52:10 pm »
"Further evidence of poor leadership:  Storm was a teacher and advisor to an Xavier school team of students and she abandoned them to marry T'Challa."

@ Yaw....technically she told Cyclops that she wanted her team sent to her in Africa (where they needed the XMen to defend victims of the HOM debacle) and he overrode her request because he wanted everyone at the mansion to show some type of solidarity and he requested that she return asap.  She is not a teacher/advisor as Emma/White Queen is...and she does not have the credentials to do it.  The White Queen (despite her many imperfections) has been a teacher/advisor before as has Professor X.  Storm turned her position as leader of a squad of XMen (until the HOM debacle) over to Bishop when she left (which included Nightcrawler, Psylocke, Cannonball and Rachel/Marvel Girl/Phoenix).

I think you are mistaking an X-team for her actual "team of students."  I was specifically talking about the team that she has in NEw X-Men.  Granted it is something that Kyle and Yost made up but nonetheless it is still valid.  Her team as of now only has been shown to be the Wakandan mutant Nezhno.  He was one of her students and somethign that needs to be addressed.  I don't like loose ends.

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2007, 09:55:02 pm »
Further evidence of poor leadership:  Storm was a teacher and advisor to an Xavier school team of students and she abandoned them to marry T'Challa.  For better or worse this is Storm's M.O.  She can lead the hell out of a squad team with specific missions but she has been shown inaffective at leading a group of people in anything other than that. 

For 12 years? Bullsh*t. She stuck with the X-Men even without her powers, for crying out loud. If she's ineffective at leading a group of people in anything other than combat, it's because she's never DONE any other kind of leadership, save for her stint as a goddess (which I'm fairly sure had lots of leadership opportunities). Furthermore, how did she "abandon" the X-Men? She left. She quit. That was her right to do so. She didn't leave them in the middle of a war, or when they needed her most. She didn't steal all the school's money and take off. She simply decided it was time to move on - and so far, I don't see the X-Men suffering from anything in her absence except for common sense.

Quote
The point of my argument is to think that STorm would be a good leader of Wakanda at this point in her life is to negate all of her previous history let alone the adjustment period she would obviously need in learning about Wakanda.

I never said Storm would be a good leader right this moment. In fact, I've made numerous posts stating that Storm is doing the right thing in hanging back and silently observing what the others do. I said myself it would probably be at least a year before she steps into her role.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 10:08:38 pm by Jenn »

Offline Yaw

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2007, 12:13:26 am »
For 12 years? Bullsh*t. She stuck with the X-Men even without her powers, for crying out loud.


Irrelevant.  You don't need superpowers to rule a nation (see T'challa).
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If she's ineffective at leading a group of people in anything other than combat, it's because she's never DONE any other kind of leadership, save for her stint as a goddess (which I'm fairly sure had lots of leadership opportunities).


Untrue.  That has been my point the entire time.  She HAS led outside of combat and she has failed:

Here she broods over her failures concerning the Morlocks:
Storm  #1 (1997 mini)



She orders the new group to go to a village in the Sudan:
Storm #4


Uncanny Annual 97
The emergent leader of the Gene Nation, D'Gard, schools Storm on her abandonment of the group and subsequent poor leadership:


D'Gard assumes leadership in a verbal coup of the group since Storm has proved inadequate




The point is that STorm can lead the hell out of a team with the mission of saving the world from alien invaders but when it comes to leading a community with domestic issues, she fails.  Those simply require different kinds of leadership.  Every Mayor of a city wouldn't necessarily make a good STormin Norman on the battlefield and vice versa.
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Furthermore, how did she "abandon" the X-Men? She left. She quit. That was her right to do so. She didn't leave them in the middle of a war, or when they needed her most. She didn't steal all the school's money and take off. She simply decided it was time to move on - and so far, I don't see the X-Men suffering from anything in her absence except for common sense.


I said "team of students."  I'm talking about the supposed students she served as advisor to while she lived at the X-mansion.  In her credit they (really "him") were only made up as a plot device in the New X-men v2 series post House of M when the X-Men Evolution creators took over writing duties.  You can blame Kyle and Yost for suggesting that Storm had a team of students at the mansion while she was absent from the mansion for most of the original run with the former writers.  In fact the only student mentioned is Nezhno the Wakandan mutant (who was shown going to her wedding).  We don't even know who the rest of her students were.  Thus this issue can be looked over but it is still a loose end that needs tying.  I mean basically you have 2 years of New X-MEn issues with no mentioning of her having a team while she is doing X.S.E. stuff then going to AFrica then long after she gets married, new writers interject "Hey what about the students you were advising these past years that were never mentioned until now?"

« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 12:16:42 am by Yaw »

Jenn

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2007, 06:21:37 am »
Dude, the Morlocks and the Sudan were the same damn f*ck-up. The Morlock Massacre was the f*ckup that kept on giving, like a rolling tire or herpes. I will say that I don't remember much about the Sudan crisis,  but that's just because the storyline was so damn stupd.

And anyone can "assume" leadership in a crisis. It's called a coup de taut...and it rarely works. Great at instigating sh*t and causing dissension in the ranks, bad at actually accomplishing anything.

Like I said, Storm knows she meeds to lean back until she's ready...and that's what she's doing.

Offline Open palm

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2007, 07:23:51 am »
WTF? Why are you dragging my darling, Kitty, into this? She was happy for her!

has nothing to do with it.

The point: A young naive, selfish little girl who had idealized Storm to replace values and structure that she (Kitty) did not have in her own life, became unjustifiably upset when seeing Storm make a personal change.

A grown up Kitty being all for Storm getting married has nothing to do with this.  Do you see a pic of a grownup Kitty anywhere?

Hell yeah it has a lot to do with this. You're using her name for a syndrome that has these symptoms:

1. Negative reaction to Storm's marriage to Black Panther for the simple fact that they are married.
Kitty doesn't reject the marriage.
2. Claims of mischaracterization without proper factual comic evidence.
Hasn't been talking behind Storm's or T'Challa's back.
3. Hatred of Black Panther (the character) despite never having read anything about the character.
She's said nothing about him.
4. Hatred of Reginald Hudlin for despite never having read any issue of the current Black Panther run.
N/A
5. Claims of no backstory between 616 Storm and Black Panther.
She's said nothing so far.
6. False characterization of Storm's abilities that can be proven contrary to her actual 616 abilities (eg. Claims that she could easily be a good leader of Wakanda despite past history that have show her community leadership skills to be quite poor and ineffectual.)
N/A, not unless you include fan fiction.
7. Idealization of Storm's personality and negation of human frailty and variance. (Ie.  Belief that she is a goddess and therefore would not succumb to reactions that other women may experience.)
She's said nothing related to that.

You're using Kitty's name in reference to an past point of her development.
Do you prefer a hero who will confirm your deepest fears? Or a hero who will inspire faith in humanity and goodness?

Offline Open palm

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2007, 07:30:30 am »
There was more than one mistake.  THe one thing they had in common was her inattentiveness.  Storm has shown herself not able to handle the duties of leading a nation as well as be and active member and leader of an assault force.

Further evidence of poor leadership:  Storm was a teacher and advisor to an Xavier school team of students and she abandoned them to marry T'Challa.  For better or worse this is Storm's M.O.  She can lead the hell out of a squad team with specific missions but she has been shown inaffective at leading a group of people in anything other than that.  The point of my argument is to think that STorm would be a good leader of Wakanda at this point in her life is to negate all of her previous history let alone the adjustment period she would obviously need in learning about Wakanda.

The only time that affected Kitty was after the "Fall of the Mutants". Kitty stayed in England and cofounded Excalibur, but Storm never told them they were still alive after Dallas. Although that pain hasn't been re-addressed, it's the only leadership decision that left Kitty abandoned by Storm.
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Offline Yaw

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2007, 07:42:30 am »
Dude, the Morlocks and the Sudan were the same damn f*ck-up. The Morlock Massacre was the f*ckup that kept on giving, like a rolling tire or herpes. I will say that I don't remember much about the Sudan crisis,  but that's just because the storyline was so damn stupd.

And anyone can "assume" leadership in a crisis. It's called a coup de taut...and it rarely works. Great at instigating sh*t and causing dissension in the ranks, bad at actually accomplishing anything.

Like I said, Storm knows she meeds to lean back until she's ready...and that's what she's doing.

You can call it one f*ckup since it involved the same people but the point is that all her times she tried to fix it were met by failure because of her inattentiveness.  She ignored them.  Ignoring the people you are suppose to be leading is a failure.  We are not talking about one of many, we are talking about the whole group. First there was the Mutant Massacre.  Then there were the survivors who got pissed off and formed teh Gene Nation and tried to kill baseline humans (and Storm as well).  Next she finds out about a pocket dimension created by Mikhail Rasputin holding teh rest of the Gene Nation.  She brings them back and tells them to move to Sudan.  The go to Sudan get attacked by mutant hating humans, she comes to help then they express how pissed off they are at her again for telling them to move there but never helping with anything and ignoring them.  D'Gard takes over in a bloodless coup and Storm accepts (because she knows she fails).  That was it, she never looks back to help ever.  Supposedly Dark Beast comes to collect some if not all of the remaining Gene NAtion for his own purposes.  To reject this story is to falsely idealize her.  She isn't some great community leader.  She has great militaristic tactical knowledge but knows nothing about urban planning. 

When T'Challa went on his foreign adventures he put people in place to watch over the kingdom in his place while still keeping tabs on the place.  Storm left the Morlocks/Gene Nation every single time and then tried to pull rank that she was leader.  It would have been different if she said "f*ck off go lead yourselves."  She was more concerned about the daily routine of being an X-man than fulfilling her responsibilities towards the Morlocks/Gene Nation.  Doesn't matter how you want to look at it, good story or not, based on continuity (that hasn't been retconned) she has been poor community/domestic leader.

Anyone who thinks otherwise exhibits one characteristic of the aforementioned syndrome. 2 more characteristics and one should be seeking treatment   

Have you been checked lately?  ;)

(oh noez I'm gonna catch heat for this lol)



Offline Yaw

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2007, 08:01:07 am »
There was more than one mistake.  THe one thing they had in common was her inattentiveness.  Storm has shown herself not able to handle the duties of leading a nation as well as be and active member and leader of an assault force.

Further evidence of poor leadership:  Storm was a teacher and advisor to an Xavier school team of students and she abandoned them to marry T'Challa.  For better or worse this is Storm's M.O.  She can lead the hell out of a squad team with specific missions but she has been shown inaffective at leading a group of people in anything other than that.  The point of my argument is to think that STorm would be a good leader of Wakanda at this point in her life is to negate all of her previous history let alone the adjustment period she would obviously need in learning about Wakanda.

The only time that affected Kitty was after the "Fall of the Mutants". Kitty stayed in England and cofounded Excalibur, but Storm never told them they were still alive after Dallas. Although that pain hasn't been re-addressed, it's the only leadership decision that left Kitty abandoned by Storm.

Dude, you are totally missing the point.  Sigh

Here's an example:

Nutcracker syndrome

In medicine, the nutcracker syndrome — also known as nutcracker phenomenon, renal vein entrapment syndrome, or mesoaortic compression of the left renal vein — is a compression of the left renal vein between the abdominal aorta (AA) and superior mesenteric artery (SMA).[1] The popular name "nutcracker syndrome" derives from the fact that, in the sagittal view, the SMA and AA (with some imagination) appear to be a nutcracker crushing a nut (the renal vein).



Forgive my I'm a psychologist and I was having a little fun. Syndromes and other types of illnesses are often named after the person(s) discovering them or a name someone attributes to it.  Often times these syndromes are named after something or someone can could represent the basic concept.  In this case, young Kitty Pride in that scene perfectly underscores, NEGATIVE FAN-BASE REACTION to Storm's wedding with Black Panther. Why you ask?

Because in that scene she is guilty of doing the same thing fans are doing now.  She negatively reacted to Storm making a significant change because it shook her foundations of what and who she thought Storm SHOULD BE.  The wedding for Storm represents a change some fans don't agree with.  The key idea here is change not the wedding itself.  The change breaks their idealized image of their "goddess."  This has nothing to do with Kitty Pryde today.  This has everything to do with Kitty Pryde at a young age not accepting Storm making a change.

I'm using only one action of a fictional character to describe a very real reaction.  Have you heard of the Oedipal complex?  In the story Oedipus didn't desire his mother once he found out it was his mother.  He gouged out his eyes when he realized so.  That has no bearing on Freud's theory.  The point is he had sex with his mother so Freud used the named to represent the complex.

Sheesh...

Offline Yaw

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2007, 08:03:46 am »
Quote
1. Negative reaction to Storm's marriage to Black Panther for the simple fact that they are married.
Kitty doesn't reject the marriage.
2. Claims of mischaracterization without proper factual comic evidence.
Hasn't been talking behind Storm's or T'Challa's back.
3. Hatred of Black Panther (the character) despite never having read anything about the character.
She's said nothing about him.
4. Hatred of Reginald Hudlin for despite never having read any issue of the current Black Panther run.
N/A
5. Claims of no backstory between 616 Storm and Black Panther.
She's said nothing so far.
6. False characterization of Storm's abilities that can be proven contrary to her actual 616 abilities (eg. Claims that she could easily be a good leader of Wakanda despite past history that have show her community leadership skills to be quite poor and ineffectual.)
N/A, not unless you include fan fiction.
7. Idealization of Storm's personality and negation of human frailty and variance. (Ie.  Belief that she is a goddess and therefore would not succumb to reactions that other women may experience.)
She's said nothing related to that.

Totally irrelevant.  You are comparing a fictional character to a REAL-LIFE issues. 

Quote
You're using Kitty's name in reference to an past point of her development.

Exactly see the post above

Jenn

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2007, 09:56:46 am »
You can call it one f*ckup since it involved the same people but the point is that all her times she tried to fix it were met by failure because of her inattentiveness.  She ignored them.  Ignoring the people you are suppose to be leading is a failure.  We are not talking about one of many, we are talking about the whole group. First there was the Mutant Massacre.  Then there were the survivors who got pissed off and formed teh Gene Nation and tried to kill baseline humans (and Storm as well).  Next she finds out about a pocket dimension created by Mikhail Rasputin holding teh rest of the Gene Nation.  She brings them back and tells them to move to Sudan.  The go to Sudan get attacked by mutant hating humans, she comes to help then they express how pissed off they are at her again for telling them to move there but never helping with anything and ignoring them.  D'Gard takes over in a bloodless coup and Storm accepts (because she knows she fails).  That was it, she never looks back to help ever.  Supposedly Dark Beast comes to collect some if not all of the remaining Gene NAtion for his own purposes.  To reject this story is to falsely idealize her.  She isn't some great community leader.  She has great militaristic tactical knowledge but knows nothing about urban planning. 

Excuse me, where the f*ck am I disagreeing with you? All I'm saying is that Storm is not some bumbling incompetent like you're painting her out to be. Like any leader (including Magneto and Charles Xavier), she has made mistakes that have cost lives. Her "inattentiveness" was basically caused by being stretched too thin, not by being forgetful or bored. That's no excuse for the outcome, but these was hardly a "Rome is burning" scenarios. And if she's such a f*cked-up leader, why would the king of the most powerful country in the WORLD pick her as a bride? Because she's cute? Not hardly.

Offline Yaw

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2007, 10:34:57 am »

Excuse me, where the f*ck am I disagreeing with you? All I'm saying is that Storm is not some bumbling incompetent like you're painting her out to be. Like any leader (including Magneto and Charles Xavier), she has made mistakes that have cost lives. Her "inattentiveness" was basically caused by being stretched too thin, not by being forgetful or bored. That's no excuse for the outcome, but these was hardly a "Rome is burning" scenarios. And if she's such a f*cked-up leader, why would the king of the most powerful country in the WORLD pick her as a bride? Because she's cute? Not hardly.


my bad. seemed as if you disagreed with the premise from my end (hence your initial post).  I don't think she is incompetent but I feel that she hasn't show herself fully competent with a responsiblity such a leading a nation.  I''m not saying she can't grow into it.  I know we both agree on that.  However my initial statement refers to the fact that certain fans think that Competent Leader of the X-men= Competent Queen of Wakanda.  I'm saying that her queen role with encompasses certain skills that she has been shown lacking in the past.  That is all.  I'm not calling her an idiot, I just think that by looking at her past assuming she should be ruling Wakanda (Wakandan-outsider issues aside) with an iron fist is irrational and idiotic.  She will need to grow into the role not only because she is an outsider but because she has alot of learning to do on long-term nationbuilding.

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2007, 10:50:21 am »
However my initial statement refers to the fact that certain fans think that Competent Leader of the X-men= Competent Queen of Wakanda.  I'm saying that her queen role with encompasses certain skills that she has been shown lacking in the past.  That is all.  I'm not calling her an idiot, I just think that by looking at her past assuming she should be ruling Wakanda (Wakandan-outsider issues aside) with an iron fist is irrational and idiotic.  She will need to grow into the role not only because she is an outsider but because she has alot of learning to do on long-term nationbuilding.

Agreed! And Wakanda isn't exactly some dried out Sudanese desert. I get the feelings these people would revolt against Ororo if she led them down that same path, a la Marie Antoinette. Marie was hardly the cruel queen people have made her out to be, (IIRC, she was married to Louis XVI at 14 or 15), but she was woefully unprepared for the job, and we know the rest of the story. :D

Offline Open palm

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2007, 05:44:25 pm »
Dude, you are totally missing the point. Sigh

Forgive my I'm a psychologist and I was having a little fun. Syndromes and other types of illnesses are often named after the person(s) discovering them or a name someone attributes to it.  Often times these syndromes are named after something or someone can could represent the basic concept.  In this case, young Kitty Pride in that scene perfectly underscores, NEGATIVE FAN-BASE REACTION to Storm's wedding with Black Panther. Why you ask?

Because in that scene she is guilty of doing the same thing fans are doing now.  She negatively reacted to Storm making a significant change because it shook her foundations of what and who she thought Storm SHOULD BE.  The wedding for Storm represents a change some fans don't agree with.  The key idea here is change not the wedding itself.  The change breaks their idealized image of their "goddess."  This has nothing to do with Kitty Pryde today.  This has everything to do with Kitty Pryde at a young age not accepting Storm making a change.

I'm using only one action of a fictional character to describe a very real reaction
.

And then you wrote to me: Totally irrelevant.  You are comparing a fictional character to a REAL-LIFE issues.

Quote
Have you heard of the Oedipal complex?  In the story Oedipus didn't desire his mother once he found out it was his mother.  He gouged out his eyes when he realized so.  That has no bearing on Freud's theory.  The point is he had sex with his mother so Freud used the named to represent the complex.

Sheesh...

That was a significant act by Oedipus. You're using a less signficant part of Kitty's past in contradiction to how she did behave to Storm's marriage. It's not 'one size fits all' here. Call it "Childish Kitty" syndrome if you will.
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Offline D- Ruck

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2007, 02:04:01 pm »
WTF? Why are you dragging my darling, Kitty, into this? She was happy for her!

has nothing to do with it.

The point: A young naive, selfish little girl who had idealized Storm to replace values and structure that she (Kitty) did not have in her own life, became unjustifiably upset when seeing Storm make a personal change.

A grown up Kitty being all for Storm getting married has nothing to do with this.  Do you see a pic of a grownup Kitty anywhere?

I agree, it wasn't about Kitty, it was about her reaction to Storm.  And it fits the fanbratti's reaction to a T, BTW, what issue was that?
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Jenn

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Re: The Kitty Pryde Syndrome
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2007, 02:17:08 pm »
I wonder how Kitty felt about the Virgin Mary - er, Ororo - when she learned that Storm lost her virginity when she was 12.