Author Topic: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)  (Read 26733 times)

Offline Francisco

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2016, 11:23:11 am »
Finn is a great character he was created to represent us nerds. He is not a runaway slave or a coon or whatever bullsh*t made up by low self esteemed whinners. If they had hired Michael Cera, Jesse Eisenberg or any other white nerdy looking actor, there wouldn't be any complaints. Am I crazy?? Of course there would be complaints, moaning and bitching about them not hiring enough people of color and ignoring minorities. Hell, Disney originally wanted to hire the guy from Kingsman, to play the part but JJ Abrams convinced them of hiring Boyega and the kid hitted it out of the park. I'm glad he didn't turn out to be some badass silent type warrior or a genius or some other over the top nonsense. He was like me. A normal guy in the middle of extraordinary events, overcoming fear and doing extraordinary things. I'm glad that he at no point came off as been in control, I'm glad he sweated all over the place (they were in the desert after all) I'm glad he was insecure, I'm glad he had to exert himself and learn to do things. I'm glad he was a complex character. And I'm glad he has my complexion. I'm glad that even though, they didn't have to, Disney hired a black actor to play the part. I hope one day instead of complaining, like little bitches a group of black artists/filmmakers can create something similar. Cause at the moment all I can hear and see is people bitching every time someone else does something and excuses for why they are not doing anything.
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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2016, 02:25:05 am »
Late to the party, but you came in swinging. I think because you can identify with Finn you are ignoring the negative aspects of the character and justifying your support by declaring all criticism as whining or bitching. Well that is your right, but I think many critics, myself included, laid out their reasons why Finn was a problematic character and why, addressing many of the things you raised.

The fact is they didn't pick Michael Cera or someone else, they picked Boyega. The fact is that there is a history of having blacks in these kinds of subservient roles, but either you don't know or don't care. Or likely you're just glad  to be included, which it sounds like to me. And it's telling that you were glad Finn wasn't in control. Even if you identify with Finn as a nerd-I am a nerd also-where is the power fantasy aspect to this character that other characters and groups (particularly in Force Awakens case-white women) get to enjoy? I mean when you look at some women who might identify with or feel empowered by Rey, you get to see Rey really overcome and kick ass, largely on her own, but yet you as a nerd of color (I'm assuming here) didn't want to see the same thing with Finn?

You were happy he didn't get the girl, pretty much lost every fight, and was in a coma by the end of the film? When I think of Urkel, perhaps the number one black nerd-he provides more of a power fantasy, an aspiration. He was an uber nerd, but he never quit, and eventually he got the girl. We even saw his alter ego, perhaps one many of us believe is really inside us. With Finn we saw a sweaty, fumbling, bumbling, at times useless, slave to the Empire (yes he was a slave. He had no name, he was a number, and Hux said that many of their soldiers were taken from birth; if that doesn't sound like slavery to you, please open a history book). Yes there were some flashes of bravery (particularly when Rey was in danger) and some flashes of independence (his desire to escape helped set a lot of things in motion), but I didn't care for Finn not being good at anything. At first I thought he was going to be a bad ass Stormtrooper, but no, this was like his first mission. And in a universe of super powerful, great people, Finn has no basic skills that aren't possessed by anyone else, unless you count the being Rey (or white girl) crazy.

White people get to see people who look like them be awesome all the time on the big screen, yet you're happy with Boyega here being a janitor, being a screw up? So maybe you need to turn that "low self esteem" mirror back in your direction.

Thank goodness we are starting to see more black creators making their own work, however I don't know how much the black masses have heard about it. Hopefully we will continue getting more in the genre and that they will get more support. And I certainly hope that Finn characters are not the culmination of those efforts. And if you do include a Finn that he is part of a tapestry of various black characters so we can see various types of characters. Finn is not a character I think needs to be emulated, and that's nothing against the actor, just the limited, distorted conception of the black character in the white imagination.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 02:45:21 am by Emperorjones »

Offline Francisco

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2016, 01:07:02 pm »
How many women did Han Solo banged in episode 4? How many fights did he win? I only saw him murder Guido (he shot first)
If Finn isn't a character then Han Solo isn't a character either. Helping your friends and refusing to slaughter an entire village is not been subservient. What's so wrong about been a janitor? Contrabandist and murderer would have been better? Or a child killer like Anakim? A traitor and mass murderer like Kylo Ren? Finn overcame on his own and kicked ass on his own but just like Han Solo he just happens to not be the main character. those "critics" are just low self esteemed bitches looking for whatever reason to complain. If Luke were have been black they'd be complaining that he didn't get to f*ck anybody that he was emasculated. If it had been Obi Wan, the one who happen to be black they'd be complaining that they made him a magic negro or some other bullsh*t like, he was too old in order for him not to be perceived as sexually threatening to Princess Leia. It's all bullsh*t.

Finn destroyed space ships using the laser turrets of the millennium falcon just like Luke and Han did in episode 4. He got to use a lightsaber just like Han did in episode 4 but unlike Han he got the chance to fight against a powerful force user and held his own for awhile. He changed, he had an ark. Started out as someone controlled by fear (Not a coward) and then all over the course of the movie overcame said fear and turned into a hero. But who cares? Let's focus in the fact that he wasn't the sex machine digged by all the chicks.

JJ Abrams is white and so are the owners of Disney and so is the majority of the people who goes to watch the movies at the theatre. They owe you (or me for that matter) nothing. They didn't have to hire Boyega and they didn't have to include a single black person but they did it anyway. Why do white women get to have a competent hero? Because it is white people the one putting the money to make the movie. The only properties I've seen developed by black people are stuff about Religion, people dancing or some drug dealer who wants to own his own night club. 50 cent had the chance to develop something new and he chose to make it all about some dude selling drugs. I mean where's the effing imagination? If a white producer had come up with that idea they'll have crucified him for being racist. Now he is about to rip off Marvel's Luke Cage.

And yes I'm pissed off because everywhere I go, all I can see is black people bitching while doing nothing. Youtube, facebook, message boards everywhere online is black people bitching because there are no good black characters or because their favorite character was mistreated but no one is doing anything creative. There's no logical reason that at this moment there's not a single film studio in the United States that is owned by blacks and that is producing original material by and for black people and whoever else interested. Just whine, bitch and moan

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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2016, 01:43:49 pm »
I've discussed this issue, at length on this forum and I am not going to revisit all those arguments I made laying out my issues with Finn. No one said Finn isn't a character. I never said that. No one here has said he isn't a character, but the question is if he is a negative or problematic character where race is concerned. I think that he is. You don't. But I do find it curious that you seek to compare Finn to Han Solo, who is pretty much the coolest character in Star Wars to in your words (and my previous speculation) a nerd like Finn. Han is an Alpha. Finn is a Beta. On the surface right off that Han/Finn comparison is sketchy and when you look at both characters and there agency and impact Finn, Han comes out much better. You might be Finn but you know you want to actually be Han.

And would I have preferred Finn be a murdering bastard-well actually yeah I would've been okay with that. If he had been a bad ass Knight of Ren or Sith apprentice that would have been fine with me. Most Sith are either highly intelligent and/or good fighters so that would have been cool to see a black Sith Lord. So far there haven't been any black Sith or dark side users in live-action. The only one I can think of is Dician in the now discounted EU/Legends. Further all these comparisons you're making to 'prove' blacks are never satisfied are missing that all those characters are white. Star Wars has a ton of white characters so you get more variation, but if you're giving us one major black character per movie, per saga, yeah, I do want to see them handled well. And compared to Lando and Mace, Finn was very wanting. I don't think everything has to be super positive. But I do want a competent, capable hero or villain, one that is sexually active (whether shown or not), one that isn't a joke or a coward, that isn't useless or unimportant, because far too long there is a whole history of those kind of portrayals and Finn fit right into that dubious continuum.

As for your rant about what black people are or aren't doing,  I've heard this refrain before. Is there some merit in it? Sure. But at the same time this broadside ignores all the things black creators are doing. Some have their work (Hudlin himself hello?) featured on these forums, so the idea that black people are not creating things is not born out by the facts. Granted many don't have the marketing, reach, societal legitimacy, and money machine that obviously many white creators have to inform people of their work or to show it to mass domestic audiences and globally. And while Abrams owes me nothing-which is true-that doesn't make him immune from criticism because he certainly would like my dollars. So if he wants my dollars he will get the criticism that comes along with that. I don't like the idea that black people should mutely accept whatever white people project about us. Do you think that the people who protested against the media portrayal of blacks back in the day, or of shows like Amos N' Andy should've just shut up and accepted what was given to them? I don't.

There are reasons for why conditions are the way they are, structural reasons, financial reasons. Racism still exists. That doesn't mean we should quit or throw in the towel but I do think we have to be honest about the history and the continuing challenges. The pull yourself up by the bootstrap thing sounds nice, unless you realize you don't have any boots. But I will say some of the issues are because of conditioning or training. We are taught to get good jobs for white corporations more so than creating and running businesses and I think in Hollywood that mentality is present there too. Still that doesn't excuse white Hollywood if they create egregious or racist images of black people from any criticism. I'm no doing hosannas because they hired Boyega. I would rather they didn't if they were going to put in a role like that. If you aren't going to do it right, don't do it all. I'm not of the mind anymore that there has to be a black person in this or that. Sure I like it when I see some representation. But I've become more cognizant that its the kind of representation too that is more important than just having a black face up in something. And while Abrams doesn't owe me anything I am disappointed with Finn also in light of how decent to well Abrams has handled over black characters in other projects of his I've watched (Alias, Undercovers, Star Trek, Mission Impossible 3), so compared to that Finn feels especially like a retrogression.

Is there a lack of imagination at times from some black creators? Yes. Is there some lowest common denominator stuff occurring? Unfortunately yes, but I get why that might be the case. Its like someone just has to have that breakout black led sci-fi hit to get imitators and so far we haven't had that. It's easier and cheaper to put out the kinds of content you mentioned and audiences have been receptive to it, almost conditioned to accept this as the only form of entertainment available so many have embraced it. Its hard to dream of the future when you are trying to pay your rent and ends meet on a daily basis. And the lowest common denominator things happen too with white Hollywood but its like when whites catch a cold, blacks catch pneumonia. I've never made a film so I have no idea all the crap people have to go through to get funding, especially before the crowdfunding era, the compromises that have to be made.

But back to an earlier point. There is content out there but you're going to have to look for it unfortunately. On You Tube I've found Costumed Vigilante Nation, an old series but it showed promise and featured a collection of  multiracial, but heavily black superheroes. There was also one episode of the Black Tiger series-which I hope they make more. A superhero series created by a black man but features an Asian lead. There's black sci-fi and fantasy, there's black indie comics. It's out there but a lot of people don't know that. There's Afrofuturism, if you look into that you will find all kinds of genre stuff with black creators or sensibility. And on and on.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 01:56:37 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #94 on: August 04, 2016, 07:07:40 am »
Finn is a great character he was created to represent us nerds. He is not a runaway slave or a coon or whatever bullsh*t made up by low self esteemed whinners. If they had hired Michael Cera, Jesse Eisenberg or any other white nerdy looking actor, there wouldn't be any complaints. Am I crazy?? Of course there would be complaints, moaning and bitching about them not hiring enough people of color and ignoring minorities. Hell, Disney originally wanted to hire the guy from Kingsman, to play the part but JJ Abrams convinced them of hiring Boyega and the kid hitted it out of the park. I'm glad he didn't turn out to be some badass silent type warrior or a genius or some other over the top nonsense. He was like me. A normal guy in the middle of extraordinary events, overcoming fear and doing extraordinary things. I'm glad that he at no point came off as been in control, I'm glad he sweated all over the place (they were in the desert after all) I'm glad he was insecure, I'm glad he had to exert himself and learn to do things. I'm glad he was a complex character. And I'm glad he has my complexion. I'm glad that even though, they didn't have to, Disney hired a black actor to play the part. I hope one day instead of complaining, like little bitches a group of black artists/filmmakers can create something similar. Cause at the moment all I can hear and see is people bitching every time someone else does something and excuses for why they are not doing anything.

I'm not quite this mad yet, but I kinda agree to a certain extent.

Finn was meant to start out as the everyman in space they just happened to cast a Black dude to play him (Boyega beat out two other White actors for the role). Once they did that it heads brought thier role model masculinty check lists to the fray.

That Luke Skywalker never won a melee fight in 3 movies(He stopped fighting Vader, then he got worked by the Emperor til Vader saved HIM) doesn't matter to the pissed off heads. Nor does the stuff about Finn's morals(refusing to take part in war crimes is far more heroic than anything Han or Luke does in ANH) compared to Han's morals matter either.

He doesn't have enough feats of asskicking and at no time does any woman want to f*ck him so he's an embarassment.

God help the poor sap who ever tries to recast Ron Weasly as a brother the way Hermione got recast for Broadway.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 07:12:55 am by Vic Vega »

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #95 on: August 04, 2016, 07:12:04 am »
My problem with Finn was the bait and switch marketing.

Honestly... I don't care enough about star wars to be too worked up about it.

Offline Francisco

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #96 on: August 04, 2016, 08:13:41 am »
In retrospective I think the main misconception is to think of Finn as a black character or a representation of black people as a whole. Yes he is played by a black actor but there's nothing inherently black about him. He is a fictional character who happens to be played by a black actor.

Han comes off as an alpha because even in the original trilogy he was way older than Finn. He was almost 30 at the time while Finn is 19. Change Han's skin color and age and we'll have almost the same character and almost the same complaints from the-never-satisfied-the-world-is-out-to-get-us-crowd. Why did Han had to be a smuggler? Why he shoot Greedo first, why did he got frozen in carbonite? Why didn't he escape on his own? I can see the whining no matter what character they had made black. There's not a single character in Star Wars that is perfect and that wouldn't fit in the-because-racism-narrative.

The way I see it there's enough space in fiction for rookies like Finn and badasses silent type warriors like Mace Windu.

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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #97 on: August 05, 2016, 04:34:48 pm »
In retrospective I think the main misconception is to think of Finn as a black character or a representation of black people as a whole. Yes he is played by a black actor but there's nothing inherently black about him. He is a fictional character who happens to be played by a black actor.

Han comes off as an alpha because even in the original trilogy he was way older than Finn. He was almost 30 at the time while Finn is 19. Change Han's skin color and age and we'll have almost the same character and almost the same complaints from the-never-satisfied-the-world-is-out-to-get-us-crowd. Why did Han had to be a smuggler? Why he shoot Greedo first, why did he got frozen in carbonite? Why didn't he escape on his own? I can see the whining no matter what character they had made black. There's not a single character in Star Wars that is perfect and that wouldn't fit in the-because-racism-narrative.

The way I see it there's enough space in fiction for rookies like Finn and badasses silent type warriors like Mace Windu.

I think its an issue of perspective. When you have so few characters black or non-white in these kind of films, or as prominent, then yes I think the one-or main-non-white character does take on outsize importance. With The Force Awakens Finn was the most prominent black character and there was one black female who has a backstory but I don't think she any lines and got an extended cameo during the destruction of Hosnian Prime.

I do think there was a lot 'black' about Finn, a distorted view of what black people are. His mugging, his bumbling, his incompetence, his deceit, and his love of white women (Rey), his being the comic relief, his willingness to forgo his own goals and sacrifice himself for white people. His being a janitor, a domestic, all of those are roles or ideas that have been ascribed to blacks in Hollywood. So to me whenever the decision to have Boyega play Finn I wonder if that led to other changes, or did how they eventually conceived of the character make Finn more amenable for a black actor? Even Lando with the pimp cape and the player persona, someone not particularly trustworthy, a shady-and unworthy-competitor for Leia's affections. And Samuel L. Jackson told Lucas he wanted to be in a Star Wars film so bad that he didn't care what role he played, even a slave. And Lucas thought he was hiding some old dubious stereotypes behind CGI and makeup with Jar Jar, Nemoidians, Watto, but he got called out for it.

Racism is baked into the cake of Star Wars. I'm not saying that its virulent or even always intentional, but Lucas drew on old Hollywood serials and stories, among others, and you're telling me that some of that source material was not racist? Heck, I think he even took the last big awards ceremony in the Rebel base in A New Hope from a pro-Nazi film or filmmaker. And JJ Abrams, while being a good director, doesn't seem to be that much of an originator. He's good at putting a film together but not so much with the vision or making a unique vision. He just combines old things in interesting ways at times. And TFA was just a regurgitation of A New Hope in particular.


I agree with you that there is enough room for Finn and Mace Windu, but the Finn pill would easier to swallow if you didn't have one main black character per each section of the saga thus far. If you have more than one, you can see other sides and other perspectives. Though I was better with both Mace and Lando than I was with Finn. Neither character was perfect, both had shades of gray, but so far they were more competent than Finn. I don't want a sweaty, stumbling, and bumbling black guy beside a kickass totally awesome white girl, a dashing super great Latino pilot, and a conflict, whiny, though he killed Han, white guy.

Your Han example to me illustrates that you got different varieties of white characters in the original series and throughout Star Wars, and movies/books in general. You got good, bad, in between, and you get tons of white characters.

Also, Han's age has nothing to do with his alpha male status. I'm sure you knew plenty of guys in high school or college, heck, probably earlier than that, that were alpha males. I do think Han's swagger does come from Harrison Ford, his matinee looks as well. Boyega is a good actor, but he's not a matinee looking dude. I mean they could've cast Michael B. Jordan for example and gotten perhaps a Ford or Billy Dee Williams kind of vibe, but they wanted Boyega because he was less of a sexual "threat". And some of us fanboys are eating it up, thinking they we are finally being 'represented', well I don't see it that way. It's the kind of representation that I am more concerned about.

And your hypothetical scenarios we'll never know because Han wasn't played by a black actor. The closest we got to that was Lando and he was definitely a supporting player, and they couldn't even find a role for him to play in TFA. Han did not shoot Greedo first, Lucas said it.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 05:01:56 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #98 on: August 05, 2016, 04:39:35 pm »
Finn is a great character he was created to represent us nerds. He is not a runaway slave or a coon or whatever bullsh*t made up by low self esteemed whinners. If they had hired Michael Cera, Jesse Eisenberg or any other white nerdy looking actor, there wouldn't be any complaints. Am I crazy?? Of course there would be complaints, moaning and bitching about them not hiring enough people of color and ignoring minorities. Hell, Disney originally wanted to hire the guy from Kingsman, to play the part but JJ Abrams convinced them of hiring Boyega and the kid hitted it out of the park. I'm glad he didn't turn out to be some badass silent type warrior or a genius or some other over the top nonsense. He was like me. A normal guy in the middle of extraordinary events, overcoming fear and doing extraordinary things. I'm glad that he at no point came off as been in control, I'm glad he sweated all over the place (they were in the desert after all) I'm glad he was insecure, I'm glad he had to exert himself and learn to do things. I'm glad he was a complex character. And I'm glad he has my complexion. I'm glad that even though, they didn't have to, Disney hired a black actor to play the part. I hope one day instead of complaining, like little bitches a group of black artists/filmmakers can create something similar. Cause at the moment all I can hear and see is people bitching every time someone else does something and excuses for why they are not doing anything.

I'm not quite this mad yet, but I kinda agree to a certain extent.

Finn was meant to start out as the everyman in space they just happened to cast a Black dude to play him (Boyega beat out two other White actors for the role). Once they did that it heads brought thier role model masculinty check lists to the fray.

That Luke Skywalker never won a melee fight in 3 movies(He stopped fighting Vader, then he got worked by the Emperor til Vader saved HIM) doesn't matter to the pissed off heads. Nor does the stuff about Finn's morals(refusing to take part in war crimes is far more heroic than anything Han or Luke does in ANH) compared to Han's morals matter either.

He doesn't have enough feats of asskicking and at no time does any woman want to f*ck him so he's an embarassment.

God help the poor sap who ever tries to recast Ron Weasly as a brother the way Hermione got recast for Broadway.

Luke defeated the Rancor and he defeated Vader (though it is arguable that Vadr stopped fighting him) in Return of the Jedi. Further than that he is one-half of the team that took out the freaking Death Star in A New Hope. He also was instrumental in shutting down the Emperor and saving the day at the battle of Endor. Do you think Vader would have turned if not for Luke? And if Vader hadn't turned, the Emperor likely would have won because no one was prepared for his trap? Finn, despite being a janitor, was a trained soldier with far more military experience than Luke when Luke started out in A New Hope.

Beyond the fighting, the original trilogy was largely about Luke and his journey into manhood and becoming a Jedi. The new films are not about Finn. They are about Rey, so I don't think the Luke comparison works. That doesn't mean Finn won't have an arc, but the fate of the universe will not hang on Finn. If anything Finn's arc has concluded at the end of The Force Awakens, and he will just be a tag-a-long character, too valuable to get rid of due to diversity points and Boyega's infectious enthusiasm.

Finn's refusal to follow orders was brave on his part. I do think the character had flashes of bravery but to say that that refusal was greater than what Luke did? Or Han did is really overselling things. Both Luke and Han had to overcome their darker natures, impulses, as Finn has done thus far, but I would argue that definitely with Luke it was for a higher purpose than chasing a woman who isn't giving you the time of day anyway, like Finn. Finn is a simp.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 04:43:45 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #99 on: August 24, 2016, 08:00:52 am »
Finn is a great character he was created to represent us nerds. He is not a runaway slave or a coon or whatever bullsh*t made up by low self esteemed whinners. If they had hired Michael Cera, Jesse Eisenberg or any other white nerdy looking actor, there wouldn't be any complaints. Am I crazy?? Of course there would be complaints, moaning and bitching about them not hiring enough people of color and ignoring minorities. Hell, Disney originally wanted to hire the guy from Kingsman, to play the part but JJ Abrams convinced them of hiring Boyega and the kid hitted it out of the park. I'm glad he didn't turn out to be some badass silent type warrior or a genius or some other over the top nonsense. He was like me. A normal guy in the middle of extraordinary events, overcoming fear and doing extraordinary things. I'm glad that he at no point came off as been in control, I'm glad he sweated all over the place (they were in the desert after all) I'm glad he was insecure, I'm glad he had to exert himself and learn to do things. I'm glad he was a complex character. And I'm glad he has my complexion. I'm glad that even though, they didn't have to, Disney hired a black actor to play the part. I hope one day instead of complaining, like little bitches a group of black artists/filmmakers can create something similar. Cause at the moment all I can hear and see is people bitching every time someone else does something and excuses for why they are not doing anything.

I'm not quite this mad yet, but I kinda agree to a certain extent.

Finn was meant to start out as the everyman in space they just happened to cast a Black dude to play him (Boyega beat out two other White actors for the role). Once they did that it heads brought thier role model masculinty check lists to the fray.

That Luke Skywalker never won a melee fight in 3 movies(He stopped fighting Vader, then he got worked by the Emperor til Vader saved HIM) doesn't matter to the pissed off heads. Nor does the stuff about Finn's morals(refusing to take part in war crimes is far more heroic than anything Han or Luke does in ANH) compared to Han's morals matter either.

He doesn't have enough feats of asskicking and at no time does any woman want to f*ck him so he's an embarassment.

God help the poor sap who ever tries to recast Ron Weasly as a brother the way Hermione got recast for Broadway.

Luke defeated the Rancor and he defeated Vader (though it is arguable that Vadr stopped fighting him) in Return of the Jedi. Further than that he is one-half of the team that took out the freaking Death Star in A New Hope. He also was instrumental in shutting down the Emperor and saving the day at the battle of Endor. Do you think Vader would have turned if not for Luke? And if Vader hadn't turned, the Emperor likely would have won because no one was prepared for his trap? Finn, despite being a janitor, was a trained soldier with far more military experience than Luke when Luke started out in A New Hope.

Beyond the fighting, the original trilogy was largely about Luke and his journey into manhood and becoming a Jedi. The new films are not about Finn. They are about Rey, so I don't think the Luke comparison works. That doesn't mean Finn won't have an arc, but the fate of the universe will not hang on Finn. If anything Finn's arc has concluded at the end of The Force Awakens, and he will just be a tag-a-long character, too valuable to get rid of due to diversity points and Boyega's infectious enthusiasm.

Finn's refusal to follow orders was brave on his part. I do think the character had flashes of bravery but to say that that refusal was greater than what Luke did? Or Han did is really overselling things. Both Luke and Han had to overcome their darker natures, impulses, as Finn has done thus far, but I would argue that definitely with Luke it was for a higher purpose than chasing a woman who isn't giving you the time of day anyway, like Finn. Finn is a simp.

Luke wanted off of Tatooine mainly because he was bored and wanted adventure. His moral stance against the empire was summed up in one line of dialogue. "Sure I hate the empire.." or something like that. He didn't have real stakes til his aunt and Uncle were killed.

And frankly Luke seemed way more upset about losing Ben than he did the folks that raised him.

Finn refused to take part in a war crime. Then escaped/deserted  with a POW who had been tourtured (and was gonna be killed). Not cosigning with mass murderers is heroic especially when it can get you killed yourself.

Since deserters tend to get shot out of hand if caught.

People also forget that Luke was crushing on Action Girl Leia up until the point that she was revealed to be his sister.  She doesn't show much more interest in Han either in A New Hope.

But Finn's a simp for not getting farther with Action Girl Rey in part one of this new trilogy than Luke or Han got with Action Girl Leia at the same comparable point of the Original Trilogy.

That makes no sense to me. At all.


Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #100 on: August 24, 2016, 03:19:14 pm »
Luke might have liked Leia but he wasn't trailing behind her like a sick puppy, screaming her name like Finn did for Rey. And Han and Leia were just feeling each other, talking crap to each other in A New Hope (likely a sparring, flirtatious banter). I can't say that romance was that big a deal for A New Hope, whereas Finn definitely was feeling Rey in a way I don't it was shown that Luke or Han was feeling Leia in A New Hope. We know Han was a pimp in Empire with the "I know" line. Finn changed his whole plan of running away once he saw she had been captured.

If you look back throughout my long posts on this subject I said at some point that Finn did display some positive attributes, though I feel they were overshadowed by the cooning and the simping. It was brave of him to refuse to commit a war crime, it was brave for him to escape, and it was brave for him to alter his plan to help Rey in the end. That being said, I think the character was too defined by wanting to run away-it was displayed as fear way too much-and the idea of a black person sacrificing their lives for a white person in cinema is not new and something I'm not cheering about.

The film went through a checklist of negative black cinematic portrayals for Finn: slave, domestic, not really good at anything/a screw up, comic relief, eunuch. It was just too much. Give me Mace or Lando any day of the week. Or heck, don't give me a black character at all if you are just going to saddle them with tired depictions.

Luke wanted adventure sure. It was the hero's quest. He wasn't as personally connected to things going in the galaxy because he was on a backwater planet, but does that make him any less heroic? If Finn was living on Jakku and had not been a soldier of the Empire do you really think he would've gotten involved from what you saw of him in TFA? He wanted to run away, get away from it all. Finn was motivated by his conscience but also his fear and his desire for self-preservation and his unrequited feelings for Rey. Luke was motivated by a desire to do and be more than what society had set out for him. Luke was more selfless than Finn to be honest.

As for Luke feeling more upset about the loss of his uncle and aunt, there was some emotion there for what I recall, but yes, he did feel Ben's loss more-just like the audience. So I chalk that up to the direction and the pacing. They didn't dwell on Luke's grief. Or rather he turned his grief into action. I mean you say Luke was unfeeling and then you seem to have an issue with him taking his relatives' murder as motivation to get involved. Arguably he was already headed down that path but their murder pushed him over, plus it freed him from Tatoonine and his obligations there.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 03:21:13 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #101 on: November 25, 2016, 09:59:22 am »
Finally got a chance to see Star Wars: The Force Awakens!

Very exciting, cinematic 'love letter' to all the fans... including George himself.

If this movie is true to form, I have a funny feeling we haven't seen the last of Han Solo. :)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2016, 11:15:27 am »
^
I don't think it was a love letter to George Lucas. He seemed pretty glum over Disney's treatment of him. He even compared Disney to white slavers in how they treated him. I also read that Disney rejected Lucas's Episode 7 ideas. Besides that, I don't see TFA as a love letter so much as a too slavish recreation of ANH, perhaps with some ESB thrown in.

As for Han Solo, Ford might show up in flashbacks, but he's not a Jedi or Force sensitive, so it is highly unlikely he will appear as a Force Ghost like Obi-Wan and Yoda in the original trilogy. I don't think Ford liked the Han Solo role and is happy to be rid of it. That being said, money does talk. Now for the young Han Solo film I could see them using Ford as a bookend, perhaps he starts off the film remembering his past, and it goes back to the younger Han, and then they bring it back to the present with Ford again.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #103 on: November 28, 2016, 04:57:03 am »
^
I don't think it was a love letter to George Lucas. He seemed pretty glum over Disney's treatment of him. He even compared Disney to white slavers in how they treated him. I also read that Disney rejected Lucas's Episode 7 ideas. Besides that, I don't see TFA as a love letter so much as a too slavish recreation of ANH, perhaps with some ESB thrown in.


'Love letter' means fan created.
Haven't heard nor read anything from Mr. Lucas regarding feedback about the movie mainly because I traditionally avoid any info on a new Star Wars feature until I view the movie first-hand, however, I do understand why he may feel that way.


As for Han Solo, Ford might show up in flashbacks, but he's not a Jedi or Force sensitive, so it is highly unlikely he will appear as a Force Ghost like Obi-Wan and Yoda in the original trilogy. I don't think Ford liked the Han Solo role and is happy to be rid of it. That being said, money does talk. Now for the young Han Solo film I could see them using Ford as a bookend, perhaps he starts off the film remembering his past, and it goes back to the younger Han, and then they bring it back to the present with Ford again.


In The Force Awakens, Han Solo does admit to Finn and Ray that everything he doubt about the Force in the past was wrong, so now he's Force attuned, which means more possibilities for more character development. ;)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
« Reply #104 on: November 28, 2016, 11:25:08 am »
^
Force sensitive is a term used in Star Wars to mean someone who can use the Force like a Jedi or Sith; not always like they do, but someone who can wield the Force on some level. Acknowledging the existence of the Force is not the same thing as being Force sensitive. A lot of characters in Star Wars acknowledge that the Force exists but can't use it like a tool like we have seen the Jedi and Sith do.

As for love letter, I've also seen one-time Trek honchos Rick Berman and Brannon Braga say they made a 'love letter' to the fans with the finale episode of Star Trek Enterprise, so the idea of a love letter is not solely the province of fans. It can be top down. And that 'love letter' was not well received by a great number of Trek/Enterprise fans. As for TFA, JJ Abrams is an unabashed fan, and there were quite a few homages to previous Star Wars in TFA, and IMO, too many.