Author Topic: 24: Legacy  (Read 868 times)

Offline Mastrmynd

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Re: 24: Legacy
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 10:08:05 am »
It definitely deserves a 2nd season.
It was 24 but with a different lead. This cast is too good to not give it one more shot.


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Right on to the real and death to the fakers!  Peace out!

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: 24: Legacy
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2017, 10:59:05 am »
Cosign!  I enjoyed it.  Had some of the same concerns EJ noted about the gang-banging back story but can't say it's unrealistic.

Peace,

Mont

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: 24: Legacy
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 01:30:58 pm »
^
Your last statement caught me. I think this is a trap we fall into all too often when we are rationalizing stereotypical or negative portrayals of black people. Sure there are black drug dealers, but why are there a preponderance of black drug dealers in movies and television? We don't see a preponderance of white drug dealers on television. The media has done a great job of identifying black men as drug dealers, when we all know the people making most of the big money in drugs are not black.

And when it comes to 'real' and 24 I think we are stretching things quite a bit. I mean, how many presidents have been on 24? It's already a very elastic take on reality. Two nuclear bombs have gone off in the US on the show, Jack Bauer overcame a heroin addiction in 24 hours, and there's been all manner of highly unrealistic-though often entertaining-things that happen on this show.

But to a larger point, this is fiction, so why in fiction does a black character have to be a drug dealer? This episode took place in DC. Near PG County, the wealthiest black county in the country. Why couldn't the brother have been a politician or a real estate developer or a businessman? I'm fine with him being shady but why drugs? Bauer's brother was shady, but also a businessman. And 24 hasn't had a problem of presenting shady businessmen, often white, throughout the course of its run. We've seen black drug dealers before, but how many times do we see black lawyers, real estate developers, politicians, academics in comparison? Heck, they could've had the brother not be shady, but a community activist and the disagreement between the two brothers is based on politics, ideology, etc. The two brothers liking the same woman thing had already been done on 24 already, in Season 6, with Jack and his brother.

Using a similar relationship conflict, using a black drug dealer/gang, and even the terrorist plot were all well-worn and tired tropes, and some were already done in the 24 universe. I do think that some of that tiredness affected the ratings. Having a black lead alone-even a good one-wasn't enough to make it fresh. And of course there were those who weren't going to support the film because there was a black lead. It was overall a solid cast, but just a lackluster story.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: 24: Legacy
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 02:02:36 pm »
Don't disagree with you EJ, your well stated reply is the problem I have with the direction the chose.  I just can't say that it is unrealistic.  That's not really even placing any judgement on gang-bangers.  I'd prefer that not be the default underlying story anytime blacks are involved.  "Shots Fired" went for the pro sports angle for it's male protagonist.  Still a limiting reflection of our reality, but not unrealistic.  Fact is, the majority of American culturally specific stories owe an aspect of their success to their own culturally specific gang-banging roots.  When those stories are African-American, however that aspect is demonized when others are celebrated or glorified.  That's not to say that I think any gang-banging should be celebrated or glorified, it's an unfortunate and common reality of our mutual human experience.  It should not be a surprise however, that a violent man, successful in a violent trade would come from such an environment.

Peace,

Mont

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: 24: Legacy
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2017, 03:30:08 pm »
^
You're right that a lot of different groups have gangsters and also crime stories and in some respects those crime stories or figures are respected or romanticized, like Billy the Kid or Jesse James. Though it becomes another issue when one group is telling the stories about another group, like whites do with blacks and how they have warped and limited the imagination of blacks, whites, and others when it comes to depicting blacks.

And its not always a black-white issue, though I am very concerned about the racial implications here. I think about some of the complaints some Italian Americans had about the depiction of Italians as being in the Mafia all the time. And we also see an overabundance of Asian characters doing martial arts or Latinas as maids, and so on. There is reality in all of that, but there's also much more, and I'm concerned that we don't see the more. We see some of the same negative portrayals which reinforce negative treatment in the real world. And it also reinforces negative behaviors by warping the imaginations of black people.

And since we aren't controlling these depictions, the black drug dealer won't be considered as complex or human as say Walter White from Breaking Bad. Black drug dealers are basically 'thugs'.

For 24, it's not a surprise that Carter came from the hood, but name me how many white heroes come from the hood? Or what would be the hood equivalent? They are labeled that way, and still retain all the violence and bad assery needed for the film. It's lazy to give Carter a gang-banging past.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: 24: Legacy
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2017, 05:19:33 pm »
Again, I agree with you.  Captain America came from a "Bowery Boys" type Brooklyn neighborhood as did the original Nick Fury, yet we know how those upbringings have been romanticized with toughness valued and fear mitigated seemingly due to pigment and a lack of melanin.  Sinatra did speak out against Robert Stack's televised Untouchables or more precisely Neville Brands depiction of Al Capone.  Yet, the show went on to have a popular run.  I did think that Isaac Carter had a little nuance to him and showed some organizational skill, quick thinking and ingenuity albeit for an unfortunate enterprise.

Peace,

Mont

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: 24: Legacy
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2017, 02:41:35 am »
^
From what I did see of 24: Legacy I agree with you that the brother did have some layers. He cared for Nicole and bottom line, he cared for Eric as well. So that is a a step up from a random, sociopathic, blinged out 'banger. And for me it just goes to show you that he didn't even need to be a drug dealer at all for his character to work. As I said before, he could've been a businessman, politician, community activist, or even a cop, and still maintained that central conflict between the brothers. It's just that the white producers' in their limited imaginations can't see a successful black person without tagging them as an athlete, singer, or drug dealer all too often in entertainment. Other standard roles are domestics, preachers, and cops actually.

Now there are lawyers, doctors, and scientists, but in general, black characters in these roles are usually underdeveloped and have non-black spouses/significant others, if they have anyone or any life outside of the job at all. That is also an issue with black characters pretty much across all media. There is not enough exploration of their inner lives. They are only 'important' in relation to their connection to the white characters. And coming from white producers-it rankles-but I get that. To a white person who might not have much social contact outside the job-the job is where they will see these people and the writers rarely go beyond that to build up the characters. And often if they do, they go into stereotypical territory or the just as troublesome 'colorblind' characterization which makes black characters essentially white characters in darker skins. It's still an erasure of black humanity, albeit with a supposedly kindlier intention to avoid stereotypes.

And I think that is because the idea of blackness and black people is so warped and stunted in the imagination that some white writers automatically associate black with pathology and stereotypes and in their attempt to go beyond that, they just make the characters 'just like them' ignoring the vast swath of black people and black experiences that might be similar to their own actually but still different due to race. There's history, experience, and nuance they are completely oblivious to or ignoring outright.

So I do think its very important that black writers and creators continue to do their thing and get more spotlight to alleviate some of these problems. To be fair to 24, the earlier seasons presented the Palmers and they went against type for me. Granted they might have been more in the 'colorblind' casting kind of characters, but something read as distinctly black to me, and we got to see a delightfully scheming Sherry Palmer, the noble David Palmer, and also the other members of the family. After the earlier seasons black characters became more disposable. I particularly didn't like how Curtis was taken out and not really mourned.

As for the Untouchables, I would say the show remained popular because the non-Italian whites liked it and were fine with the depictions. I mean Southern Europeans weren't automatically accepted as white like white Anglo-Saxons when they first got here, so I can see some of those tensions still existing at the time of that show. Along with the Irish, I mean JFK had to mute concern about being a Catholic when he ran for president some fifty plus years ago. Few would bat an eye about a Catholic running today.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 02:44:10 am by Emperorjones »

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: 24: Legacy
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2017, 06:43:38 am »
True enough!  All examples of how inefficient our "Melting Pot" has been.

Peace,

Mont

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: 24: Legacy
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2017, 11:26:10 am »
I don't think it's a true melting pot. Blacks can't assimilate into the larger society. The gatekeepers won't allow that. Now they will take black culture and black sweat and genius and they'll let a few handpicked ones in, but that's not a real merging of cultures. It's more parasitic in my eyes. And there is also the issue of even when taking from black culture the larger society doesn't always acknowledge the black source or origin.