Poll

BP710 Story Ideas     Deadlines for selection: November 22, 2017

Death Be Not Proud-The final days of T'Chaka the Black Panther
1 (16.7%)
Lost in Space-The search for the Vibranium asteroid field
2 (33.3%)
Doomwar-The Black Payback: T'Challa v Doom as it should've been
0 (0%)
Black on Black violence-The on panel fight between the Black Panther and Black Dwarf
0 (0%)
Where is the Love-The romance of T'Challa and Ororo
0 (0%)
Sweat of the Panther-Steampunk Wakanda
1 (16.7%)
Beware Of Geek's Reply #4210 on: October 22, 2017, 07:39:29 am
1 (16.7%)
Battle's Supreme nomination  Reply #4208 on: October 22, 2017, 04:59:32 am
1 (16.7%)
Kickin' it with Kip Lewis Reply #4238 on: October 25, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
0 (0%)
Other
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: November 22, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Author Topic: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions  (Read 954986 times)

Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4485 on: February 04, 2019, 11:05:36 am »
I looked for it, but I couldn't find anything about military training in the 616. All it says it he went to MIT. Contacted Tchalla and repatriated to Wakanda. Didnt like what Tchalla was doing to the country and tried to overthrow him.
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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4486 on: February 06, 2019, 11:15:38 pm »
While Killmonger may be lagging in the feats department...


T'Challa is firing on all cylinders in this weeks Avengers.

courtesy of MindofShadow
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Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4487 on: February 07, 2019, 04:41:28 am »
Great fourth issue. One more to go.
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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4488 on: February 08, 2019, 04:21:02 pm »
Quote of the Week!

"The reason the Panther armor is not only less bulky (clunky?) than the Iron Man armor but technologically superior is because, while he is an amazing ridiculous genius, Tony Stark doesn't have 10k years of amazing ridiculous geniuses working for all that time on his technology for him to build on.

I really don't think people understand wha they're saying when they say Wakanda has been isolated from the rest of the world for 10K years and that their technology is founded upon access to an element that is unique to them, without outside influence or interference.

They might as well be the Kree by comparison to other human civilizations. They have more in common with the Eternals or the Inhumans than they do with ANY normal human nation or normal human genius.

Seriously, ya gotta think these things all the way through."   


Redjack
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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4489 on: February 12, 2019, 06:11:50 pm »


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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4490 on: February 12, 2019, 09:32:29 pm »
For your edification fellow HEF runners, a CBR discourse that I found interesting.

Quote
Originally Posted by Redjack 
Wakanda is not Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda. They've made that clear to the world for ten thousand years. If you guys had any clue what you missed by not seeing my second pitch for the series you'd riot.
Quote
Originally Posted by lemonpeace 
I feel like that's a silly interpretation of Wakanda.

Quote
Originally Posted by MindofShadow 
How so? Wakanda purposefully isolated itself from EVERYONE. Not just "non africans." Wakanda only cares about Wakanda and pretty much always has outside of extreme circumstances until T'challa opened the country.

Quote
Originally Posted by Rumble
I don't really get into these types of back n forths bc it becomes hella subjective lol. Most (or a large number of) black and afrikan people consider Wakanda as "Afrika" (or an idealized Afrikan country), regardless of what anyone else here feels about the accuracy of that. That's the underlining marketing pitch of the movie lol.

For me, Nigerians can be pretty tribal and caring of only our own/tribe/countrymen/cultural ways as well... or so is the perception at times from ppl of other afrikan countries who find us arrogant and actin holier than tho (or whatever).. of course not to the extent of an extreme fantastical fictional afrikan country lol, but elements are there that always made me chuckle (and other times groan). Which is why i may view wakanda with different optics than a black american, who may view it different from a white, asian, hispanic, indian buddy. Idk.

Quote
Originally Posted by Redjack
it's not an interpretation. it's the history of the country as depicted in the comics. it's not open for debate. the history of Wakanda diverged from that of the rest of the continent at the moment they discovered what vibranium could do for them. they never lifted a finger to help any of their neighbors during colonization. they did nothing to stop the transatlantic slave trade. they BARELY participated in ww2. They did nothing to stop Islam spreading via the sword across much of Africa. exactly how "African" is Wakanda? Just as American as Asgard.

Quote
Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK
Does any of this make them any less African? I understand that Wakanda is a fictional African Nation but for the sake of suspension of disbelief, in the real world, there were many African Nation States that fought against and resisted the Transatlantic Slavers. The fact that this bit of history is sublimated beneath a convenient distortion of historical fact, whilst pushing the wholly false narrative that Africans (as a whole) rolled over and docile surrendered their way into slavery, is indicative of cognitive dissonance of massive dimensions.

Quote
Originally Posted by Redjack 
Wakandan technology gave them RIDICULOUS military advantage over any intruder. They did not trade with their neighbors. They didn't inter-marry outside the tribes internal to the country. They literally murdered anyone who crossed their borders. for thousands of years. they share nothing with the rest of the continent except skin color and location. it's got nothing to do with a false narrative about what the rest of Africa did to fend of colonization. It's that the ONE entity capable of putting it to a dead stop, along with the other things I listed, did not.By choice,They helped no one. They mixed with no one. They murdered anyone who wasn't them for ten thousand years. Wakanda is Wakanda. Africa is Africa. In fact, it's not specific to Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda and the rest of the world is on its own. Until like last week.

Quote
Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK
Sorry. That doesn't them any less African. (Within the fictional MU of course.) When Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the Black Panther and his mythos back in 1966, they were described as an African civilization hidden from the rest of the world as opposed to some quasi-alien off shoot of humanity such as the Inhumans. Let's not get too carried away with the revisionist history here. There was nothing remotely false about the narrative of Africans resisting the West in relation to the Transatlantic Slave Trade but I can see how choosing to see history from a perspective that portrayed Africans as being complicit in their own enslavement, would be easier to embrace for some.

Quote
Originally Posted by Redjack
You're trying to educate someone who knows his subjects- both real and fictional AT LEAST as well as you. The false narrative is that Africans didn't fight back. Of course they did. That' sin't the issue. I'm just looking at the comics and what "actually" happened in the MU. Wakanda is in Africa. it's physically part of the continent but, beyond that, is has, by choice, withheld contact with its neighbors for the entire duration of human civilization as we know it. That means they developed independently in every way. They have no familial, linguistic or cultural ties to any other group in Africa, again, by their own choice. They were exclusive and independent from the entire rest of the world until T'Chaka and T'Challa opened the doors. They might as well be from Asgard or Shi'ar. You're trying to find a fight where there isn't one. No one posed the Wakandans as anything other than human.

Quote
Originally Posted by MindofShadow 
I'm curious to how much intermingling occurred. Ramonda is south african. Is Shuri the first "unpure" Queen for instance? Hmmm, none of this has any cinematic use though! lol

Quote
Originally Posted by Redjack 
what you're dealing with is a bunch of people writing this stuff over the years who had little or no interest in the wider ramifications of the society they described for us or how it could plausibly sit in Africa. Priest, Hudlin and even Coates do take stabs at it to varying degrees and with varying success but, at the base, Wakanda was created by Lee * Kirby to be exactly the same sort of "secret nation" as Attilan, Subterannea, Atlantis or the Keewazi nation. If we take them at their word, Wakanda has equal amounts in common with the rest of Africa as it has with the rest of the world.

Quote
Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK
Based on your supposition but still unsupported by what's been clearly stated in cannon by Lee and Kirby who made it clear that Wakandans are African. (Albeit unsullied by slavery/colonislism.)

Quote
Originally Posted by Cville
I would go the opposite direction within the fictional setting and say Wakandans are the most African peoples on the continent. Their culture and traditions are unchanged and would most likely resemble that of the real tribes from the area before they became WK. While others countries have been changed due to various reasons, they keep it mostly the way they've always been. All respect to people who are actually from Africa on the boards. I don't want to seem like I'm taking anything away from you.

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Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4491 on: February 12, 2019, 09:35:46 pm »
There is one more comment I added. Lol.
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Offline Ture

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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4492 on: February 12, 2019, 09:39:07 pm »
There is one more comment I added. Lol.

Yes indeed, I'm going to post it right now as I wanted to comment on it.
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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4493 on: February 12, 2019, 10:06:59 pm »
Quote
Originally Posted by Cville
Lets go really deep. lol. Should we start the process of eliminating the word Africa all together? And refer to people by what country or ethnic group they are from? "Africa is not a country" pops up on my FB feed at least once a week.

Under no circumstance should we eliminate the term Afraka. If anything it should be incorporated much more. In my company of family and friends we use it as the proper noun and our ethnic and citizenship as the modifying adjective, I.E. Damara Namibian Afrakan, American Afrakan, Bahamian Afrakan, Yoruba Nigerian Afrakan... katha wa katha (et cetera).

As for Afraka not being a country... who knows what the future may bring. There are continuing talks going on in UN and AU circles about continental Afraka becoming a federation of states "with a single Afrakan military force, a single currency and a single passport for Afrakans to move freely around the continent."
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Offline Gessela

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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4494 on: February 13, 2019, 06:52:21 am »
I commend you brothers for even engaging in that conversation over there.
Isolation/Separation/Incarceration can weaken or strengthen culture, but it cannot erase it.
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Offline Ture

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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4495 on: February 14, 2019, 03:09:54 pm »

I commend you brothers for even engaging in that conversation over there.
Isolation/Separation/Incarceration can weaken or strengthen culture, but it cannot erase it.
Agreed on both counts. I've always thought of Wakanda as being guarded and secretive. The isolationist mentality evolved post Hudlin declaring Wakanda an unconquered nation.
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Offline Ture

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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4496 on: February 14, 2019, 03:30:12 pm »
Hey Kimoyo, are you Killerbee911?

Quote
Originally Posted by Killerbee911  View Post
Here is the way to explain are Aborigines today Africans? More than likely your answer will be no, If you believe Africa to be birthplace of civilization and understand that Aborigines may have initially migrated from Africa to Asia then Australia you get where this is going.The argument splitting yourself off and developing independently away for years you will be completely different thing Wakanda even though Wakanda is Africa,It has been as separated as Aborigines in Australia. What doesn't make it work as well it should is that writers never care fleshed out Wakanda as realistic should it is far easier to make patchwork of African civilization than completely different entity. Based on how advance Wakanda and the separation means language, customs,entertainment, music,etc would have developed way differently from other parts of the continent .

Redjack is not saying they are not Africans by textbook definition they are Africans.You have seen in his posts him saying that what I believe he saying "Yeah even though you can call Africans by the textbook definition they have been separate so long and so vastly different from anything around they are better describe as just Wakandans". Now props to Stan Lee and Jack Kirby for creating this property but things that holding up this convo is really the fact that two white men create fantasy place in africa and not someone well versed Africa or developing civilizations for fiction. A more fleshed out creation would more uniquely have its own Gods, language,architecture and quirks of civilization and great sci fi and fantasy writers would have flesh that out more.

So here is the thing 10,000 years ago from Bashenga to when T'Challa open up Wakanda. Wakanda has been separate/isolated being their own thing. They have been as isolated as Aborigines. That is the fiction. What us fans are pointing to being African is well fictional writer not fleshing out the world more someone like GRR Martin (Valyrian) or Tolkien(Elves) would flesh out concept to where it does feel like anything else on earth. I am with Mind of Shadow weirdly both sides are right I don't think any is wrong for saying yeah by definition Wakanda is African especially when writers have filled it out with African flourishes but I don't think anyone is wrong to say Wakanda is really just Wakanda because from nearly Hyborian Age Marvel caveman age to pretty much the present,Wakanda has been separate entity from Africa in the fiction. I mean why would Wakanda have developed other African cultures stuff while being seperated?

Wakanda is African but Wakanda is Wakanda. Just my 2 cents
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Offline Ture

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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4497 on: February 14, 2019, 03:47:03 pm »
Here are some concluding remarks from CBRs  interesting discussion.

Quote
I have to admit, I don't truly understand the point you are trying to make. Wakanda is an African country. Not just because of the geographic location but culturally as well too. All cultures evolve due to specific experiences that they may uniquely undergo but that doesn't mean there are no cultural continuities or affinities that they may share. Due to the nature of comics, the origins and development of Wakanda is everchanging and of course there may be some conflicts and contradictions that exist due to retcons, but they all point to Wakanda sharing cultural similarities with other African peoples DESPITE vibranium.

Cultural proof that (616) Wakanda is "African."

1. Deities- The deities worshipped by Wakandans have been shown to be acknowledged by other African groups. Bast the Panther Goddess (Ancient Egyptian) and Ghekre the Gorilla God (Cote D'Ivoire) are examples.
2.Physical Culture- Superficial as this is, Wakandan architecture and clothing have all been shown to have similarities with other African cultures.
3. Languages- Many words and names used in Wakanda are used by other African groups (e.g. Orishas, Kwame, Okoye, etc.). Black Panther speaks to the Dora Milaje in Hausa... HAUSA.

Now one could argue that all of these similarities are due to the lack of imagination (or laziness) of previous writers in giving Wakanda is own unique language and identity but we can go farther. In the Black Panther series by Peter Gillis and Denys McCowan, The Panther God abandoned the Black Panther because of the suffering he ignored among the Black population of ANOTHER AFRICAN country, Azania (an analogue for South Africa). BP did not initially try to stop the apartheid regime of the Azanian government leading to the suffering of Black Azanians which the Panther God saw as reprehensible. So here we have a case where the deity worshipped by Wakandans is actively fighting against them because they are ignoring the suffering of other Panther God worshippers in another AFRICAN country.

But wait there is more!

The comparison of Wakanda to Attilan and other isolated nations is problematic and inaccurate. Wakanda is generally (now) depicted as landlocked surrounded by other African countries. Now one can argue about the origin Wakanda's xenophobia because in the original Kirby/Lee depiction Wakanda pre-Klaue was NOT xenophobic. Their xenophobia was arguably a result of Klaue's betrayal and invasion after he was an invited guest. Post-Hudlin, their xenophobia predates Klaue but still, it's highlighted that they are hostile towards armed invaders. The question is: Are they hostile to unarmed peaceful immigrants? We don't know in all cases but the reality is that prior to T'Challa opening up the country there were immigrants allowed to settle in Wakanda. Ramonda (who became Queen) and Hunter (who was adopted as the king's son) are two shining examples.

Furthermore, Wakanda may keep itself hidden from the world, but the world was not hidden from Wakanda. Wakandan citizens THROUGHOUT history have constantly engaged the world outside of their borders. Unlike Attilan, there has been way too much communication with the outside world for Wakanda to be considered THAT separate from everything, particularly their African neighbors. Again this is pre-T'Challa.

In conclusion, the idea that Wakanda has or even could completely cut itself off completely from other African nations, has just not been supported by comics. If you choose to go there in the cartoon, then that is fine. However, suggesting that this is a fact born through the comics is just not true.

Yaw

Quote
You say this as if Stan Lee and Jack, subsequent writers, and Marvel didn't want to make Wakanda feel like and be an African country (despite putting it in the continent), but didn't bother or know how to go ahead to do it because they were lazy and/or weren't well versed in the continent enough.

The point some of us are trying to make is that there was conscious effort from writers and artists to make Wakanda look, feel and be African by borrowing from different cultures from these different countries. That doesn't make Wakanda a pastiche of Africa and her countries in the way Redjack is implying (or you are by drawing reference to Tolkien's work) because Wakanda isn't meant to be an imitiation of Africa, but is meant to be a part of it as a fiction.

Yes, one can argue that perhaps Wakandan culture could have been made to feel more unique, but the similarities help ground it in a sense of reality that makes it the appealing fantasy that it is, and there are African countries that have tribes and such that speak the same languages or have the same dress sense despite being separated by borders. Both Yoruba and Hausa aren't just spoken in Nigeria, for instance (despite being popularly known as being of that country). A country housing just one language is more of a European thing (see England, France, Germany etc) and Wakanda only speaking a hypothetical 'Wakandan' actually makes them feel less African.

I get what Redjack is trying to say that they're their own country due to the isolationism (and the fact that they were hidden for centuries). That is true of course, but that suddenly does not make then not African. That doesn't make sense, and like I and other users have pointed out, there is enough evidence to disprove that.

It's like saying America will no longer be a part of Earth because Trump wants to impose nationalist policies, or Britain won't be part of Europe anymore because of Brexit.



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Offline Ture

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Re: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - The Killmonger Sanctions
« Reply #4498 on: February 14, 2019, 03:59:37 pm »
'Black Panther' was built around one essential line of dialogue that director Ryan Coogler feared Marvel would cut

By Travis Clark

Director Ryan Coogler feared a now-essential line of dialogue from "Black Panther" would be cut. But it ended up laying the groundwork for the entire movie.

Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige told The Hollywood Reporter that the final line uttered by a dying Killmonger, played by Michael B. Jordan, was critical to the movie's story, and that he wanted Coogler to build the movie around it. It's also the one line from the script Coogler thought Marvel would want to cut.

In the scene, Chadwick Boseman's Black Panther offers to help Killmonger, who he just stabbed. Killmonger refuses, choosing instead to die while looking over Wakanda from the top of a cliff.

"Just bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from ships, because they knew death was better than bondage," Killmonger says.

"That was in the first draft," Feige told THR. "It was one of the best lines we ever read. We said, 'There are going to be a lot of revisions, but don't touch that line.' And Ryan said, 'That's the line I thought you'd tell me to cut.' And we said, 'On the contrary, keep it and build more of the movie around it.'"

"Black Panther" is nominated for seven Oscars this year, including best picture. It's the first superhero movie to ever be nominated in the category.

The Oscars air February 24 at 8 p.m. on ABC.

https://www.businessinsider.com/marvels-black-panther-was-built-around-one-essential-line-2019-2


For the record only some of Killmonger's matrilineal side may have felt that way, his father's side probably did not. Just sayin'.
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