Poll

BP710 Story Ideas     Deadlines for selection: November 22, 2017

Death Be Not Proud-The final days of T'Chaka the Black Panther
1 (16.7%)
Lost in Space-The search for the Vibranium asteroid field
2 (33.3%)
Doomwar-The Black Payback: T'Challa v Doom as it should've been
0 (0%)
Black on Black violence-The on panel fight between the Black Panther and Black Dwarf
0 (0%)
Where is the Love-The romance of T'Challa and Ororo
0 (0%)
Sweat of the Panther-Steampunk Wakanda
1 (16.7%)
Beware Of Geek's Reply #4210 on: October 22, 2017, 07:39:29 am
1 (16.7%)
Battle's Supreme nomination  Reply #4208 on: October 22, 2017, 04:59:32 am
1 (16.7%)
Kickin' it with Kip Lewis Reply #4238 on: October 25, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
0 (0%)
Other
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: November 22, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Author Topic: BP710: THE PROTOCOLS 2020 - AVENGE THE FALLEN  (Read 1181369 times)

Offline Ture

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Re: BP710: THE PROTOCOLS 2020 - AVENGE THE FALLEN
« Reply #4905 on: Today at 12:48:59 am »
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I'm comparing movies based on  RL time and what was available in that time as well as the expectation going into the movie. And Frankly marvel didn't know BP was going to blow up like it did and become a cultural movement, they also filmed The Avengers movies back to back and I'm pretty sure Chadwick said he pretty much went from filming BP to Avengers so they were both happening at pretty much the same time which caused a conflict in being able to make adjustments. But ultimately I don't find the habit to be that far behind IMs suit. Really we are comparing are Apple's to oranges, and the solo literally came out months before IW.. but it also comes down to, it doesn't matter how advanced something is if the people in charge don't usee it like they should, happens on the comics and to some extent in the MCU.

I can work with the vibranium highlighted statement you made. I don't want an Iron Panther as armors are Iron Man's shtick. This is why in the progenitor post I wrote Shuri having the high tech armor and if she were to be a Black Panther (10 movies down the line) she can be the one designing a superior armor to Stark or have them one upping each other. Again as I stated in the progenitor post T'Challa's greatest weapon would be his masterful strategies and tactics fueled by his vast intellect and ability to manipulate his opponents to underestimate him.

As for the real life timelines...  nanotech is so 80's. It would have behooved the writers to come up with something new and original, like say something right out of the Black Panther's comic book... maybe Shadow Particles. Build on Shadow Physics, a scientific field of study with applicable technology theorized, proofed, created and designed by T'Challa the Black Panther. Its explanation could have fleshed in place of Shuri's new suit demonstration. It would simply mean returning more of the onus of genius back to where it originated. BP blowing up and becoming a cultural movement and Marvel's ignorance of such  notwithstanding. Thus nullifying your concern of Infinity War coming out in Black Panther's wake


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Klaw got in because of N'jobu and also learned about it from him. There's a difference between him getting in on his own, and getting in because someone allowed him to enter. In that regard the barrier did what it was supposed to do and he was given information. Thanos entire army was at Wakanda so it isn't out of the realm that he would be able to track them there. The tunneling under the barrier was Kinda dumb but they were trying to cause a sense of tension. I don't agree with it, it's a very lazy way to get around it but I guess they had to think of something since we literally saw the barrier tank a skyscraper sized shuttle from out of orbit with out any issue.

As for the outriders I don't think it's anything about simply running around the barrier to unprotected areas as thst literally makes zero sense for Wakanda to not have a barrier protecting it's entirety. It simply came down to the outriders had no problem killing themselves to get in so if the army split up (remember they had overwhelming numbers) they WOULD outflank them and some would get in, enough to cause damage. If they could simply run around it then the black order would of simply made the army flank the Barrier and T'Challa would have no choice but to follow.

As for the motherships, again they had no need to have them because again no one knew they were there and thus wouldn't bother them because it looked like a mountain range. Helecarriers, and Stark satellites can't find them or get in, and other then going underground (plot reasons) only cosmic level magic could get in. Not a reason to have giant motherships from the MCU side.  Plus given how the movie was focusing on the OG avengers, would you have really wanted to see some stupidity of the Black order taking down a N'Yami mothership?

As for the final point. The spears were extremely effective. They were essentially sniper rifles capable of one shotting the invading force. But again big action movies wanted some medieval style battle Which I have stated over and over I do not agree with it because it was incredibly stupid.

They created a choke point, forcing the flanking outriders to come back to the choke point, they had the advantage of dragon fliers and. Rhodey raining death, they had Wakandans blasting them from a distance, if any got to close they had the shield border tribes ready, they can easily dispose of them. But instead (the Russo's) they stop shooting and then charge, being vastly outnumbered and giving up all of their advantages all to create faux tension and ultimately Thor's big rescue.

I don't agree with that at all. It would of made more sense to give the feeling of stakes by having them abandon the strategy because they eventually had to due to the sheer numbers coming in, all the while showing why Wakanda was literally the best place to be and why the world (and the galaxy at large) should fear Wakanda. But that wasn't the focus, and Marvel didn't have time to make changes and they have lamented that as well

Truth be told, we don't know for certain the circumstances of Klaw's entry. He could have found Wakanda independently and simply penetrated the holographic image encompassing Wakanda. He then was easily captured and branded. Maybe then Klaw was freed, given access to a quarter ton of vibranium and provided an escape route all courtesy of N'Jobu. I think I wrote a feasible flashback explanation for the upcoming sequel.

Concerning those Outriders and their tactic of running behind the Wakandan force field, I'm not the only one who saw it that way.Never the less we agree that is a ridiculous plot device.


"Along with the Black Order, the Outriders faced the Wakandan army and Captain America's Avengers faction, throwing themselves at the force field in an attempt to destroy it. Many are killed, but as they continue, the force field begins to falter. When some begin to circle around the force field, the Wakandans are forced to let them through, prompting the aforementioned army and faction to engage."        https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Outriders

Your insistence that the N'Yami battle cruisers are unnecessary for an MCU Wakanda in which beings like Thanos exist is inexplicable to me. Here are some opinions that might spice up our discussion.

If there were a war between the United States of America and Wakanda, who would win?

The United States against both comic book and movie versions. Wakanda has vibranium and energy weapons, sure, but that isnít enough of an edge to win. Remember two things, first, America is what defeated the Chitauri invasion, not the Avengers. S.H.I.E.L.D. is an American agency, and without the nuke that S.H.I.E.L.D. launched, the Avengers would have been overwhelmed and destroyed. The US has the resolve needed to win in this situation, having had the resolve to nuke downtown New York City. Second, Captain America: The First Avenger. The Nazis had more advanced weapons in those secret Hydra labs then were in Wakanda, powered by tessaract energy, yet they were overwhelmed and destroyed repeatedly using conventional weapons and, in the end, conventional forces storming in.

Same situation here. The Wakanda troops use what essentially are the staff weapons from Stargate.




Anyone remember the comparison between the staff weapon in Stargate and the P90? If not, go watch the episode Warrior or follow this link. The Wakandan warriors, like the Jaffa, engage in the open and close to melee range.



The average soldier is armed with blades and staff weapons. No advanced infantry defenses here. The armored rhinos seen on screen in addition to the other vehicles arenít covered in vibranium armor, instead they are covered by armor made of steel and have less protection and capability than US armored vehicles. The horn itself is Ďsolid steelí and I doubt that it has the kinetic energy needed to penetrate even a Bradleyís armor.

The Black Panther suit is unique among the Wakandans in being made primarily from vibranium. The rest is all conventional stuff, including their aircraft. You have to remember that in the movie, former Black Panthers sought to hide Wakanda because they were afraid of invasion. The main antagonist wanted to invade the rest of the world and showed through his actions and intent exactly why he was thrown out of the US specops community. Heís not only bloodthirsty, heís also stupid and arrogant. Not good traits for a specops soldier.

The shield isnít an issue either. It was shown to be able to be overwhelmed by ground troops. Imagine what a sustained artillery bombardment would do to it. Or several hundred 2,000 pound bombs. Or several hundred cruise missiles.

Then thereís Americaís nuclear power. America could strike Wakanda down very quickly with a nuclear strike. A tactical or strategic bomb to disable the shield, then another to destroy the kingdom itself. I doubt the US would do so, though. Better to invade and occupy. Then, unlike in Iraq or Afghanistan, we really could be there for a resource weíre after, shipping out that vibranium.

Thatís the movie version, now for the comic version. The one that uses a mixture of its own tech and conventional arms. This too would fall, though the battle would be more bloody. It has a tech advantage, yes, but not decisively so in an all out war between nations. It also still greatly lacks the numbers of the US military. In a war, at the worst, youíd be looking at what Nazi Germany was looking at facing the Soviets and the Americans. Yeah, they have inferior tech, but they can afford to sacrifice five of their own to kill one of yours. In the end, you get ground down to a bloody pulp and the remaining million enemy soldiers stand on your corpse because you donít have the capability to kill them all before they get you.

Brent Davis, lives in The United States of America (1985-present)


Ö Seriously? In the MCU?

As far as we can tell, the Wakandan military is maybe two thousand people, counting all the different forces involved ó royal guard, Dora Milaje, Border Tribe and Jabari. The other tribes donít seem to field a military due to specialization, but even if they did, itíd be like two thousand more at best.

The US have nearly 40000 active-duty personnel in the Coast Guard. The Army has over 400000, the Navy and the Air force over 300000 each, the Marines nearly 180,000. In total, active-duty US military personnel comprise about 1.2 million people. Even if only 10% of these are combat personnel (Iím not sure of the proportion), it comes out to over a hundred thousand fighters. Against four thousand Wakandans, tops.

As far as weíve been shown, the Wakandan military is near-exclusively light infantry. They have no artillery at all. The closest thing they have to tanks is those offensively stupid rhinos, which are only suitable for medieval tactics. (Conveniently, the Wakandans appear to rely only on medieval tactics.) Their Air Force is maybe half a dozen transport drones with no bombing capabilities, and one invisible plane, also with no bombing capabilities. They appear to have no explosives at all, actually, against all odds.

Itís actually quite puzzling. Considering their level of development and their small population, they should have tens of thousands of drones for every level of combat, biological and chemical weapons we canít even understand, weaponized force fields on a strategic scale, WMDs that make nukes look like peashooters Ö but no, theyíre fighting with spears and sticks and rhinos. Itís like in all their thousands of years of technological head-start, they never invested anything worthwhile in military technology. So what if their spears can destroy tanks? That just makes it a fancy RPG. It doesnít compensate for the lack of actual tanks. So what if theyíre wearing vibranium? They donít even have helmets.

Meanwhile, the US military is the most powerful armed force ever to exist, capable of fighting on land, sea and sky at the same time with overwhelming force like nothing the world has seen before. Besides soldiers ó enough of them to drown the whole Wakandan army in their blood if thatís what it comes down to ó they have tanks, artillery, air support, missiles, drones, WMDs, everything we can conceive of as a tool of military engagement.

The US military absolutely dominates the Wakandans in literally every field of combat. They have more men, better tactics, more versatility, a massively greater scale of operations, and, yes, they even have better technology. This wouldnít be a battle, it would be a one-sided slaughter. The only thing the Wakandans could do is turtle down behind their force field and hope for public opinion in the US to turn their way.

Now the comicsí Wakanda Ö well, thatís a whole different story. I still think the US would have the upper hand, but comics Wakanda would be so tough a nut to crack that it would cripple the US to get it done, making the conflict itself unlikely.

Shimon Brand



If the US truly went to war with Wakanda, it will be over in hours. Hell, Iíll even rule out nukes, bombers, cruise missiles, and all other long-range weaponry. It still isnít fair.

Ö

Look at the Wakandan laser spear (their primary weapon). Killmonger states it can ďdestroy a tank.Ē You know what, fair enough.

In fact, itís very similar to a weapon the US uses: the Javelin anti-tank missile. Ditto the Soviet RPG.

So the question is, do 1000 people with Javelin missiles (MCU Wakanda) win against 460,000 infantrymen (US Infantry, 2017) with assault rifles?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Uhhh, no. If that were even close to true, then they would be standard issue (hint, they arenít).

In fact, the argument could be made that the Wakandan spears are even WORSE than conventional arms (against ground troops). Sure they have great destructive power, but thatís mostly useful against vehicles. Against people, it doesnít really matter if you only punch a hole half-an-inch wide in their skull, versus disintegrating the entire person.

But you know what the M4 can do that the Wakandan spear canít? Shoot 700 rounds a minute.

What will happen is simple. The US Infantry will force a breach of the Wakandan shields using tanks and AVs (we know itís possible since Thanosí forces do so in Infinity war).

Once inside the shield, the US infantry will use long-range rockets or mortars to destroy the shield generator. Then, we pull the infantry back and let artillery bombardment finish the job.

The US wouldnít even take great losses, because remember the Wakandan army literally isnít big enough to fortify their own border (infinity war), and they also donít have weapons which operate beyond line of sight.

Kevin Yue, former Military History Teacher



Are you serious? The Wakandans. All day every day. Your talking about a nation who invaded Atlantis and razed it to the ground.



Several people here answered that the US wins. For the life of me I donít know why. Letís look at the facts. Wakanda has secret carriers all over the world.




These things can blow up a city. Think about that. Each one can absolutely decimate a city. Thatís not the ONLY broken thing Wakanda can do. The US army is effectively useless against Wakandan infantry.



Again. Wakanda beats the US easily. And Iím being nice by allowing this version of Wakanda. Current Wakanda murder stomps. The Intergalactic Empire Of Wakanda is the newest iteration.



In short Wakandans have this one in the bag.

Saheteraba Kutisha


https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win-in-a-battle-between-the-Wakanda-military-and-the-US-military

In closing I will say that it was Priest who showed us the scale and breadth of the Wakandan military and actually stated that Wakanda could possibly defeat the USA. It was Hudlin who gave us a ten thousand year unconquered streak. Going forward in film, comic or animation full successful, unquestionable military victories in all that Wakandan glory must be seen.

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