Termination and Liberation for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther Finale

[MindofShadow]

SI, there could be another way to involve Namor in restoring Shuri that has nothing to do with what you are mentioning.  We've seen before in other mystical fiction that sometimes the answer involves certain individuals, because of who they are, not because of what they can do.  For example, on Buffy's show, the people that needed to revive the Master were the people who were standing closest to the Master when he died.

Coates could have written a story that Namor was required to be there because he was the one who was Shuri's enemy.  Thanos' forces may have done the deed, but they were only there because Namor and Shuri (heads of each of their states) were at war.  Basically, Namor is an ingredient.

That's not to say this would make a good story, but there are ways to tell this story without minimizing Wakanda.

Not to mention that Namor was rolling with the Cabal during the events of TRO. It makes sense that he would have an idea of how to free someone from the "Neither Life or Death" prison.

Makes me wonder though...was Namor's death and the scrapping of that idea the reason why we have Shuri's journey in the Djalia?

Naw I think that was always planned.

I think instead of Eden going with T'challa, it would have been Namor though.

Leading to a "hug it out bitch" moment between T'challa, Shuri, and Namor and the hatchet being buried of sorts.

[supreme illuminati]

SI, there could be another way to involve Namor in restoring Shuri that has nothing to do with what you are mentioning.  We've seen before in other mystical fiction that sometimes the answer involves certain individuals, because of who they are, not because of what they can do.  For example, on Buffy's show, the people that needed to revive the Master were the people who were standing closest to the Master when he died.

Coates could have written a story that Namor was required to be there because he was the one who was Shuri's enemy.  Thanos' forces may have done the deed, but they were only there because Namor and Shuri (heads of each of their states) were at war.  Basically, Namor is an ingredient.

That's not to say this would make a good story, but there are ways to tell this story without minimizing Wakanda.

Not to mention that Namor was rolling with the Cabal during the events of TRO. It makes sense that he would have an idea of how to free someone from the "Neither Life or Death" prison.

Makes me wonder though...was Namor's death and the scrapping of that idea the reason why we have Shuri's journey in the Djalia?

Naw I think that was always planned.

I think instead of Eden going with T'challa, it would have been Namor though.

Leading to a "hug it out bitch" moment between T'challa, Shuri, and Namor and the hatchet being buried of sorts.

All of the above CAN be done, and of course any writer can make up fictitious reasons why thus and so happened in a fictitious universe...

...but that is utterly repulsive writing. Flies in the face of established history that impacts major characters who would be the entities to please and who would set the bar of acceptance for such behavior. And annihilate the soul of the offender.

Remember, brethren, I'm a research guy. And there is no way that Bast...either as Temptress or War Goddess/alternate expression of Sekhmet the Lion God...would let Namor in on her biz. Think about that. Namor. Scion of Neptune. Whose lineage extends through Rome, an Ancient ENEMY nation...as Rome was the enemy of the Ta-Seti prefectures and Empire.Didn't Bast in her War Goddess expression tell her OTHER son...Hannibal...what to do about the invading Romans? Yes. She did.

Now this SAME Bast/Sekhmet is going to countenance the Scion of an Enemy God from an Enemy Nation in on her holy Rites? A War Goddes. Countenancing the Scion of an ENEMY. In on her soulful biz with her Chosen Panthers. Does that not ring false, and forced, and disrespectful, and a chumping out of the pantheon of invincible Afrikan Gods, our History, and of both TChalla and Shuri, to you?

Does that not smell of:" Marvel has plans for Namor, so yall writers fix his public profile for me?" to my fellow HEFfers?

But if you insist that there is good in-story plot reasons for this chicanery, WITHOUT a as yet publicized order from Marvel Editorial about the fate of Namor? Consider how our own already written history has thousands of years of stories that run directly counter to what we see on page. There are plenty. PLENTY. Of Djaliah parallels in real Afrikan spiritual systems, myth, etc. None of them. None. Need an outsider, enemy of the state, Scion of an Enemy country [ ancient Rome ], enemy mythos, enemy God [ Neptune, who helped Namor flood Wakanda ] for any of their even most dicey and dangerous rituals to work. Maybe the HEART of an enemy. Maybe the WEAPON of the enemy, as a vessel bearing special spiritual energy. Maybe the BLOOD of an enemy, to smite his/her kin with vengeance eternal. But NONE OF OUR RITUALS would be needed or welcoming to or tolerated of our enemy's survival, or at least tolerant of a failure to enact massive, effective reprisals upon our enemy after such actions as Namor's. Battleworld truce be damned.

There is no way that brilliant. Prideful. Ruthless. Noble. Man with the Plan TChalla would even need to stoop to include an ENEMY OF THE STATE in on his plans to rescue his sister. Ask Mephisto, Achebe, Iron Man, Kraven, and all nem guys what TChalla does to people who are THE ENEMY OF THE STATE. TChalla should not go all Mephisto on Sub-mariner and tear Namor's heart out...but he should remind Namor that he...TChalla...TWICE spanked Namor under Hickman's pen. So TChalla should not scrap with Namor.

Shuri should drop them Wakanda dawgs on Namor when she returns.

 It was Namor who sent Proxima Midnight and Thanos to Wakanda. Shuri personally OWES Namor personally...as opposed to Atlantis...a life threatening beatdown; as she already accomplished the destruction of much of Atlantis. From which Atlantis is yet to fully recover.

Not only does Shuri beating down Namor fit the "Big Up Black Women" flow in this narrative [ which I personally think is looong overdue, one of 3 important things that I give Coates props for...but which should never be done at the expense of TChalla or any other Royal, but instead should be done with an eye toward building up each character even more ] it evens up the score between Shuri and Namor. Under Maberry, Namor got the better of Shuri when Shuri went to avenge the injury Namor inflicted upon Wakanda with Namor's part in inducing TChalla into the ambush that nearly killed him and propelled Shuri into the Panther Habit. Namor caused the chain of events that caused Queen Storm of Wakanda to exchange her spirit for that of TChalla's in the Realm of Death. That right there gives Shuri TWO Wakandan Royals to avenge, and that right there all by itself warrants a THIRD beat down from TChalla to Namor and a savage savage beat down from Storm to Namor.

Shuri. Queen of Wakanda. Post Djaliah juice flowing. Should send that message: Step off, Son of Salmon [ not Son of Sam ]. And. NEVER EVER mess with The Queen of Wakanda.

Namor is extraordinary in every way. But. Namor is also a man who made amends with TChalla on Battleword because all Realities were at stake, and all but the Battleworld Reality was destroyed. A man who fought and defeated Shuri in battle. A man who is the Crown of Atlantis...mighty Atlantis...who has twice [ at least ] warred with The Shining City. The Golden City. A man who seduced Storm in a alternate reality, then taunted TChalla about it.

The Royals need to get all whooptastic on Namor's fins one more once. And NEVER. Let him near their spiritual issues. I don't see anyone remotely citing how Namor needs Wakanda to help rebuild Atlantis. Or. Needs Shuri to help return en masse the spirits of Atlanteans to their fabled undersea home. So screw Son of Salmon, and keep him away from Wakanda.

Because we all need to remind these fools. SEE WAKANDA...AND DIE.

[supreme illuminati]

BLACK PANTHER #7 THE CONTINUED DISSIPATION OF PANTHER POTENTIAL



Uhhhggg!!! An prosaic exercise in stereotypical mundanity. Coates opens with the ever trite, in house insults, that supposedly have to occur every time American Afrakans (Misty) meet with Continental Afrakans (Storm). This is followed by an insipid convo between Luke and Misty. Dialogue was one of the weakest points of this comic. The Crew was another, lest I forget the fight scenes. Sad to say but the Changamire, Tetu, Zenzi parts and their art were better than all the T'Challa stuff. Storm's and Black Panther's reunion... wasted. Shuri's part would be a welcomed addition to WoW as short Wakandan back stories and thus I would have preferred Shuri only being seen in stasis in the pages of BP until she left the Djalia.

Said it before, sayin' it again... Coates, you made three mistakes. First you took the job. Second you came light. A poor man's BP for me? f*cking insulting. But the worst mistake you made was thinking you could resupply the Black Panther's mythos with your proven empty gun rack.



I guess the crew (writer and editorial) haven't realized yet that it greatly detracts from the Black Panther to have him use someone else's power to do what should be inherent or within his skill set to do on his own. SMH

i haven't read the book yet. I will thumb through it at my LCS this weekend while I catch up on and buy the POWER MAN IRON FIST books I missed. Pissed that I missed THE ENTIRE RUN of NIGHTHAWK. I didn't even know the book was out. Buying up everything on it that I can find.

But. Not buying Coates again until he comes correct on BP. I will tell you guys what I think after I thumb through the book. I tend to have different perspectives than the rank and file here on HEF, but...so far we have all been largely in sync with not liking major major major parts of Coates BP.

And I have a feeling? I'll agree in large part with Ture's post above. Let's see what Sunday or Monday brings.

[supreme illuminati]

He didnt do the namor thing to be clear lol.

Side note, why doess the mags thing keep getting posted? That was all in tchallas head


Re:
 There is no reason. Zero. For ALL of the BPs to NOT BE thoroughly versed in magicks, but manifest this knowledge in different ways as interpreted by their distinct personalities and inclinations. In fact? Given the proliferation of powerful magickal threats against the throne since the dawn of Don McGregor? There is no way that ANY BP could survive WITHOUT extensive defenses against magicks, psionics, mutant powers, etc. of all sorts.


It was stated on panel that T'challa believed he coudl basically outdo sorcery with technology.

Coates didn't do the Namor thing? Good. Like I said...I haven't read Coates BP ever since Chump Coal was used to simmer TChalla into Suckaville Status. Then...where is this whole Namor thing, and does it involve Shuri? What's the real stats on that?

Let me tell you something. The previous renditions of TChalla by Coates was so bad in many areas...starting with Rape Camps and sentencing to death leading, loyal, brilliant Midnight Angels for killing rapists who also were enemies of The Crown...that a pretty smart guy like me WHO IS A WRITER AND WHO LIKES COATES didn't even question that Coates would ALSO write Son of Salmon stepping in to save Shuri, or whatever Namor is supposed to be doing. That's. Really indicative. Of how really bad. TChalla's characterization has been.

Oh. The reason why we keep posting the TChalla vs Magneto thing, despite the fact that we all know that it was a hallucination on TChalla's part? Is because TChalla...Priest TChalla, the core and foundational REAL TChalla that RH, McDuffy et all built upon into OUR TChalla...really has those defenses all over freakin Wakanda. Not just the Throne Room.  TChalla. The Man With The Plan. Is that dude who makes it do what it do.

Whereas...since RH and Liss were sent packing? TChalla has been raked over the coals by White writers with deliberate hate in mind flingin dung on the character. When I saw Coates coming? I really thought we'd get Badass Black Panther [ with a heavy dose of Coates improving upon, amping and channeling Coates-Priest BP ] back. The prose would finally show the blending of the philosopher the social commentator the poetry and the warrior joined. The Negro Speaks of Rivers+Life Ain't No Crystal Stair+Rise+The Iliad+Odyssey+High John The Conqueror+The Flying Igbos combined, hyped up and done Afrikan+hip-hop style. Stand back, yall. Aretha is here, sangin bout that R-E-S-P-E-C-K. Get ready to Put respeck with a K on TChalla's name.

Instead? We got frickin RAPE CAMPS. Instead? We get the writer missing the fundamental cultural truth that The Dora Milaje...like the Dahomey Queens...are not glorified harem member-bodyguard fusions, but instead EACH ARE POTENTIAL QUEENS OF WAKANDA AND EACH ARE THE PENULTIMATE FORCE PROTECTING ROYALTY, THE DIRECT INCARNATION OF THE WILL OF THEIR DEITY. Put respecK with a K on the name of the Dora Milaje and The Midnight Angels, too. But NO. We getz NONE of that.

So I didn't bat one eyelash at the notion that Son of Salmon was in on this DissFest, too.

[KIP LEWIS]

SI, you forget; in comics the rules of magic are higher than the gods.  If the rules of magic state that the enemy must accompany the brother to bring back the sister, then Bast must obey. 

[Ezyo]

Esteemed Brother S.I the book is about a 6.5/10 is okay but had potential to be a solid 8/10 or better. There are some good things but ultimately the action and the large amount of panel space divulged to Shuris side story, and Changamire and Tetu, and Zenzis stuff taking up space on what should of been a mostly  crew heavy debut. Again there are some positives but it had so much more potential and was a big let down given the hype. Essentially Coates was inspired by Hickman's storytelling he also adopted his convolution as well. And there aren't enough panels for all of this.

Once you read it though. I posted a quote from CBR from mbeezy, gimme your thoughts on their theory when you get the chance

[The Wakandan]

Esteemed Brother S.I the book is about a 6.5/10 is okay but had potential to be a solid 8/10 or better. There are some good things but ultimately the action and the large amount of panel space divulged to Shuris side story, and Changamire and Tetu, and Zenzis stuff taking up space on what should of been a mostly  crew heavy debut. Again there are some positives but it had so much more potential and was a big let down given the hype. Essentially Coates was inspired by Hickman's storytelling he also adopted his convolution as well. And there aren't enough panels for all of this.

Once you read it though. I posted a quote from CBR from mbeezy, gimme your thoughts on their theory when you get the chance

Now that you mentioned it, #7 should've been strictly about the Crew and then Shuri's Djalia story.

This would've allowed #8 to have the convo between Tetu, Zenzi, and Changamire, in addition to Shuri's return in #8. Combine the way Tetu's convo ended with Shuri returning and you have a great alley-oop opportunity that would've built a lot of anticipation for #9.

A bit of armchair quarterbacking, but I feel that would've been a good (and satisfying) look.

[MindofShadow]

Esteemed Brother S.I the book is about a 6.5/10 is okay but had potential to be a solid 8/10 or better. There are some good things but ultimately the action and the large amount of panel space divulged to Shuris side story, and Changamire and Tetu, and Zenzis stuff taking up space on what should of been a mostly  crew heavy debut. Again there are some positives but it had so much more potential and was a big let down given the hype. Essentially Coates was inspired by Hickman's storytelling he also adopted his convolution as well. And there aren't enough panels for all of this.

Once you read it though. I posted a quote from CBR from mbeezy, gimme your thoughts on their theory when you get the chance

Now that you mentioned it, #7 should've been strictly about the Crew and then Shuri's Djalia story.

This would've allowed #8 to have the convo between Tetu, Zenzi, and Changamire, in addition to Shuri's return in #8. Combine the way Tetu's convo ended with Shuri returning and you have a great alley-oop opportunity that would've built a lot of anticipation for #9.

A bit of armchair quarterbacking, but I feel that would've been a good (and satisfying) look.

i think i said somethign similar to this.

You can't hype a super hero team up liek they did and then have it relegated to 6 pages or whatever

[MindofShadow]

SI, there could be another way to involve Namor in restoring Shuri that has nothing to do with what you are mentioning.  We've seen before in other mystical fiction that sometimes the answer involves certain individuals, because of who they are, not because of what they can do.  For example, on Buffy's show, the people that needed to revive the Master were the people who were standing closest to the Master when he died.

Coates could have written a story that Namor was required to be there because he was the one who was Shuri's enemy.  Thanos' forces may have done the deed, but they were only there because Namor and Shuri (heads of each of their states) were at war.  Basically, Namor is an ingredient.

That's not to say this would make a good story, but there are ways to tell this story without minimizing Wakanda.

Not to mention that Namor was rolling with the Cabal during the events of TRO. It makes sense that he would have an idea of how to free someone from the "Neither Life or Death" prison.

Makes me wonder though...was Namor's death and the scrapping of that idea the reason why we have Shuri's journey in the Djalia?

Naw I think that was always planned.

I think instead of Eden going with T'challa, it would have been Namor though.

Leading to a "hug it out bitch" moment between T'challa, Shuri, and Namor and the hatchet being buried of sorts.

All of the above CAN be done, and of course any writer can make up fictitious reasons why thus and so happened in a fictitious universe...

...but that is utterly repulsive writing. Flies in the face of established history that impacts major characters who would be the entities to please and who would set the bar of acceptance for such behavior. And annihilate the soul of the offender.

Remember, brethren, I'm a research guy. And there is no way that Bast...either as Temptress or War Goddess/alternate expression of Sekhmet the Lion God...would let Namor in on her biz. Think about that. Namor. Scion of Neptune. Whose lineage extends through Rome, an Ancient ENEMY nation...as Rome was the enemy of the Ta-Seti prefectures and Empire.Didn't Bast in her War Goddess expression tell her OTHER son...Hannibal...what to do about the invading Romans? Yes. She did.

Now this SAME Bast/Sekhmet is going to countenance the Scion of an Enemy God from an Enemy Nation in on her holy Rites? A War Goddes. Countenancing the Scion of an ENEMY. In on her soulful biz with her Chosen Panthers. Does that not ring false, and forced, and disrespectful, and a chumping out of the pantheon of invincible Afrikan Gods, our History, and of both TChalla and Shuri, to you?

Marvel never follows the myths though. Thor and Co. proves that.

[supreme illuminati]

SI, you forget; in comics the rules of magic are higher than the gods.  If the rules of magic state that the enemy must accompany the brother to bring back the sister, then Bast must obey.

Brutha KIP, I really didn't forget  the comics or established historical rules of magic. Perhaps I'm operating off of different rule sets of magic canon than Coates is. I'm operating off of stuff established and built forward since The Official Handbook of The Marvel Universe [ remember  that? ]



and The Midnight Suns/Sons Universe push to do something big with magic in the MU, as well as the subsequent shifts, changes, events and alterations since then



You see, my arguments come from a pretty solid grasp of the magic in Marvel and the real world history of the magicks and actions of the beings in question. Especially that of Bastet and the Afrikan pantheon lead by Ra.



http://comicvine.gamespot.com/bastet/4005-22575/


Nowhere in all of that does Bastet seem like she's the kind to  rock with the Scion of an ENEMY god. She blessed brutha Hannibal to bring Rome to its knees.



She was with Qori Kandake Amanirenas as Amanirenas defeated these same Romans in war, avenged her fallen husband and protected her son.



We needs to rock with the reality in Afrika, too.

SI, there could be another way to involve Namor in restoring Shuri that has nothing to do with what you are mentioning.  We've seen before in other mystical fiction that sometimes the answer involves certain individuals, because of who they are, not because of what they can do.  For example, on Buffy's show, the people that needed to revive the Master were the people who were standing closest to the Master when he died.

Coates could have written a story that Namor was required to be there because he was the one who was Shuri's enemy.  Thanos' forces may have done the deed, but they were only there because Namor and Shuri (heads of each of their states) were at war.  Basically, Namor is an ingredient.

That's not to say this would make a good story, but there are ways to tell this story without minimizing Wakanda.

Not to mention that Namor was rolling with the Cabal during the events of TRO. It makes sense that he would have an idea of how to free someone from the "Neither Life or Death" prison.

Makes me wonder though...was Namor's death and the scrapping of that idea the reason why we have Shuri's journey in the Djalia?

Naw I think that was always planned.

I think instead of Eden going with T'challa, it would have been Namor though.

Leading to a "hug it out bitch" moment between T'challa, Shuri, and Namor and the hatchet being buried of sorts.

All of the above CAN be done, and of course any writer can make up fictitious reasons why thus and so happened in a fictitious universe...

...but that is utterly repulsive writing. Flies in the face of established history that impacts major characters who would be the entities to please and who would set the bar of acceptance for such behavior. And annihilate the soul of the offender.

Remember, brethren, I'm a research guy. And there is no way that Bast...either as Temptress or War Goddess/alternate expression of Sekhmet the Lion God...would let Namor in on her biz. Think about that. Namor. Scion of Neptune. Whose lineage extends through Rome, an Ancient ENEMY nation...as Rome was the enemy of the Ta-Seti prefectures and Empire.Didn't Bast in her War Goddess expression tell her OTHER son...Hannibal...what to do about the invading Romans? Yes. She did.

Now this SAME Bast/Sekhmet is going to countenance the Scion of an Enemy God from an Enemy Nation in on her holy Rites? A War Goddes. Countenancing the Scion of an ENEMY. In on her soulful biz with her Chosen Panthers. Does that not ring false, and forced, and disrespectful, and a chumping out of the pantheon of invincible Afrikan Gods, our History, and of both TChalla and Shuri, to you?

Marvel never follows the myths though. Thor and Co. proves that.

Not true, younger Brother. Marvel DOES follow myths, when it suits them.




This pic above is one of several renditions of real Thor from the legends of yore. In fact, in the 80's or '90's? Marvel went full legendary Thor to try to stave off cancellation of the book. Red beard. Iron glove to grasp Mjolnir. Belt of strength. Full battle armor. The whole kit and kaboodle.  Almost full Paganborn Thor.

[supreme illuminati]

Esteemed Brother S.I the book is about a 6.5/10 is okay but had potential to be a solid 8/10 or better. There are some good things but ultimately the action and the large amount of panel space divulged to Shuris side story, and Changamire and Tetu, and Zenzis stuff taking up space on what should of been a mostly  crew heavy debut. Again there are some positives but it had so much more potential and was a big let down given the hype. Essentially Coates was inspired by Hickman's storytelling he also adopted his convolution as well. And there aren't enough panels for all of this.

Once you read it though. I posted a quote from CBR from mbeezy, gimme your thoughts on their theory when you get the chance

Now that you mentioned it, #7 should've been strictly about the Crew and then Shuri's Djalia story.

This would've allowed #8 to have the convo between Tetu, Zenzi, and Changamire, in addition to Shuri's return in #8. Combine the way Tetu's convo ended with Shuri returning and you have a great alley-oop opportunity that would've built a lot of anticipation for #9.

A bit of armchair quarterbacking, but I feel that would've been a good (and satisfying) look.

FACTS.

[The Wakandan]

Esteemed Brother S.I the book is about a 6.5/10 is okay but had potential to be a solid 8/10 or better. There are some good things but ultimately the action and the large amount of panel space divulged to Shuris side story, and Changamire and Tetu, and Zenzis stuff taking up space on what should of been a mostly  crew heavy debut. Again there are some positives but it had so much more potential and was a big let down given the hype. Essentially Coates was inspired by Hickman's storytelling he also adopted his convolution as well. And there aren't enough panels for all of this.

Once you read it though. I posted a quote from CBR from mbeezy, gimme your thoughts on their theory when you get the chance

Now that you mentioned it, #7 should've been strictly about the Crew and then Shuri's Djalia story.

This would've allowed #8 to have the convo between Tetu, Zenzi, and Changamire, in addition to Shuri's return in #8. Combine the way Tetu's convo ended with Shuri returning and you have a great alley-oop opportunity that would've built a lot of anticipation for #9.

A bit of armchair quarterbacking, but I feel that would've been a good (and satisfying) look.

i think i said somethign similar to this.

You can't hype a super hero team up liek they did and then have it relegated to 6 pages or whatever

Indeed, especially with that type of roster. They should've had a lot more panel space than what they got.

[KIP LEWIS]

SI, keep it going, the Pantheons of earth are no longer enemies like they used to be.  They work together as allies on multiple occasions so no, in the MU, Bast would have no problem working a ally of Neptune.

[KIP LEWIS]

Plus, if you noticed, Bast rarely gets involved.  She didn't even show up to help against Thanos, and he's a near-Odin level threat.

[Ezyo]

Esteemed Brother S.I the book is about a 6.5/10 is okay but had potential to be a solid 8/10 or better. There are some good things but ultimately the action and the large amount of panel space divulged to Shuris side story, and Changamire and Tetu, and Zenzis stuff taking up space on what should of been a mostly  crew heavy debut. Again there are some positives but it had so much more potential and was a big let down given the hype. Essentially Coates was inspired by Hickman's storytelling he also adopted his convolution as well. And there aren't enough panels for all of this.

Once you read it though. I posted a quote from CBR from mbeezy, gimme your thoughts on their theory when you get the chance

Now that you mentioned it, #7 should've been strictly about the Crew and then Shuri's Djalia story.

This would've allowed #8 to have the convo between Tetu, Zenzi, and Changamire, in addition to Shuri's return in #8. Combine the way Tetu's convo ended with Shuri returning and you have a great alley-oop opportunity that would've built a lot of anticipation for #9.

A bit of armchair quarterbacking, but I feel that would've been a good (and satisfying) look.

Its another addition to the list of missed opportunity.. Could you imagine how badass this book would be of Coates did things differently? Keeping the same story but slight adjustments? Such wasted potential