Author Topic: Termination and Liberation for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther Finale  (Read 823155 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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The irony in all of this, is that I seem to remember calling out Hickman's take on T'Challa for being wildly inconsistent and totally out of character, only to have my views derided by some as being hateful.

Hickman's take on T'Challa was praised by some as being something "awesome that had never been done before" as regarded raising the characters profile to headier heights but now, in the wake of Coates's rather dismissive and very deliberate running down of T'Challa and Wakanda, can any of my previous detractors honestly say that I was wrong in predicting that the blanket acceptance of Hickman's milquetoast T'Challa would eventually result in the broken character and mythos we currently see unfolding before our very eyes?

I've always tended to look at the bigger picture as opposed to being bamboozled by empty spectactle so none of the BS that Coates has pulled thus far, has come as a suprise to me.
I was one of those few that was right along with you even more so on the T'Challa "crying to daddy" tip. Too many blerds are just accepting anything. "Highest sales ever" Yea Yea and it is only 3 issues in. I'll wait until issue 12 to see if this so called "numbers" stay the same.



I was most definitely of the differing opinion overall regarding Hickman BP. I stated repeatedly that I took a while to see where Hickman was going, because I had never even CONSIDERED a superhero story that was actually a whodunnit masking a cosmic horror morality tale. The very idea is...audacious and brilliant. To compound this unique approach which is hard enough to grasp alone, Hickman was and is a master of throwing us all off the scent with his long form and meticulously developed plots. There were many subtle and direct things I liked and still liked about Hickman. And stuff I absolutely cringed and vomited at.

Let's start with the vomitous stuff first:

1. Hickman had TChalla threaten the life of Namor three times...and not follow through on it. Turns out that Marvel Editorial toyed with the idea of TChalla permanently fading Namor, but plans for the post TRO MU changed those plot points. On the fly. So Hickman himself apparently didn't know that his story would have to change, by order of Marvel Editorial. We readers were of course by necessity kept completely in the dark about these inner and interoffice plot points and whatnot, which of course increased the howl from the [ at that time, let's face it and keep it 100 ] relatively small and pretty easy to ignore BP faithful. Note that most of the MU faithful actually saw good stuff...no disses or very little disses...in what Hickman did for and even to BP. We cannot. Cannot. Lose sight of this. If we do? We completely ignore skew and do injustice to what Hickman was seeing and dealing with PRE-TRO.

Remember? The BUILDERS were happening AT THE SAME TIME that The Incursions were happening. In fact? The Builders were a consequence of The Incursions. We cannot. Cannot. Lose sight of that. This story...despite it bleakness on a grand cosmic scale...is essentially the story of hope and life and victory in the face of impossible odds and even near impossible to grasp ubergrand concepts. https://houseofflyingscalpels.com/2013/09/08/infinity-explaining-jonathan-hickman/

And while the AVENGERS threw down vs THE BUILDERS, The New Avengers were dealing with "Death" and "hopelessness/despair" and "loss" in the form of THE INCURSIONS. And even then? TChalla led the moral and spiritual fight AGAINST the corruption that claimed Starks, Namor, and to some extent Reed. And this moral strength allowed TChalla to joust with and outwit Doom, then restore the 8th incarnation of the 616, as the penultimate act of the ultimate war on BATTLEWORLD.







Which tells you how few of them really read and really grasped TChalla. And which...again, keeping it 100...meant that TChalla is the most "screwable" of the BIG 3 [ Reed, Starks, TChalla ]. Reed can't be overly screwed because he's the first of the MU royalty, head of the F4...which was the group that all other groups [ even The Avengers ] somewhat patterned themselves after. Can't screw Starks because he is the #1 Marvel Superhero worldwide draw, thanks to Robert Downey Jr.'s utterly epic work on IRON MAN movies. TChalla? Most of the MU didn't really know our BP, therefore: they liked him, they were interested, but NOT MAX INVESTED. Therefore [ as I predicted ] if levels of screwage were gonna happen? TChalla would receive the new levels of screwing. First. And probably the longest.

I was right. And even though I completely understood that, both as a matter of business and as a writer? I hated and still hate every bit of that.

2. TChalla doesn't cry. He didn't cry when his father was murdered in front of him. He didn't bat an eyelash when Doom threatened Storm's life right in front of him. He didn't remotely shed a tear when he squared off with the NEW incarnation of his god, the mighty [ male ] PANTHER GOD. But Hickman had TChalla CRY like a BEYOTCH. Awwww HELL NO. I really. Really. See where Hickman was going with that. I do. I see he was literally forcing the characters to "go beyond themselves" by subjecting them to stressors and dealing with losses and risks which they have never. Ever. Faced before.

Even THEN? TChalla [ and Namor, let's keep it 100 ] showed themselves doing things which no other character [ not even the mighty and risk taking Doctor Strange ] had the courage AND moral compass to do. TChalla, as was revealed even in his beyotched out boo-hoo'ing, was literally the only person of The Illuminati [ the mightiest of the mighty, let's not forget ] who was looked to by the other heroes to both have the strongest moral compass AND do what NOBODY ELSE could do. WHILE KEEPING FIRM GRASP OF HIS SOUL. TChalla pulled the trigger on the first world, when nobody else could. And he did so while fully grasping the severity of the action in both a moral and spiritual sense. Namor would have done so as well, but not necessarily because he grasped the MORAL AND SPIRITUAL requirements, compromises, and losses. He didn't catch the severity of the situation until he threw in with The Cabal and belatedly realized what TChalla always grasped. http://comicvine.gamespot.com/new-avengers/4050-55330/forums/new-avengers-6-1464829/

Remember? Rabum Alal "...kills hope, and crushes that is decent within us."






3. Hickman had TChalla NOT do stuff that TChalla WOULD HAVE done. TChalla would have speedily sussed out the source of The Mapmakers and whatnot. Speedily. Way ahead of Doom. Way ahead. The Nowhere Room and Shadow Physics would have given him resources that Doom couldn't match. And. TChalla has a whole freakin nation of sorcerers, and future glimpsing precognitives, etc. Even without direct Lordship over the resources of Wakanda...even saying that he forsook those resources because he is King Of The Dead now, and Shuri is THEE Queen Black Panther and therefore the rocker and ruler of the resources we usually assign to TChalla [ which I think WAS the case during Hickman's run ]? We're looking at 10k  years of Black Panthers whose AGGREGATE WISDOM TChalla can access. You see the pix of these Black Panthers when TChalla became KOTD? Check this out:






I'm trying to find that pic that shows a cadre of Panther Spirits, one of whom is cloaked and floating midair like the powerful sorcerer he or she is. Somebody help me with that? Anyway the point is...as KOTD, our TChalla can draw on ALL that wisdom. 10k of undefeated unsurpassed wisdom and ability. All those Black Panthers who are sorcerers, psions, megageniuses, etc etc. He should have been able to speedily. Speedily. Utilize this aggregate superskill and megagenius and intuitively pick up the proper trail even in Hickman's epic. And with Reed, Starks', and Doctor Strange's megabrilliance to aid him? BP would have run circles around Doom. Circles. And quickly come to the crux of the TRO issue.

And. TChalla would have foreseen the treachery of Maximus. TChalla would not only have manipulated Maximus into doing TChalla's bidding...I mean c'mon bruh. That whole thing is TChalla's wheel house...TChalla would have killed Maximus for Max's treasonous actions after he outwitted Maximus. This would have served for some seriously seriously needed redemption for TChalla the character, in the wake of NOT killing Namor.

And. Shuri would have killed at least one of Thanos' generals. She would NOT have fallen to ANY of them. Shuri is too smart and able, and Wakanda is too capable.

So yeah. I completely understand and even applaud where Hickman was going with this. But I absolutely dislike the fact that TChalla was chosen to act so completely out of character for this [ although I already understood both the financial and character reasons why he was chosen for the teary eyed reaction ] and I completely disagree with its execution and the tears especially. There are a ton of different ways to go about that that is better suited to TChalla the character. But. I know that seeing the [ better than ] Batman of the MU shed tears not once but twice in the same freakin issue or thereabouts has a lot more impact than anything else they could have TChalla do while being cool at the same time. The impact is more severe even for us BP megafans, as we certainly remember and dislike such a thing. Whereas we might not remember the cool things TChalla did so clearly as this "out of character"  thing.

Frankly? Borrowing a phrase from and riffing off Salustrade...phuck that.

3. Even though a whole lot of NEW AVENGERS' "SECRET WARS/TIME RUNS OUT/ETC" was already preset in Hickman's vision for SECRET WARRIORS [ which never came to pass ], a lot of stuff was also fluidly happening and happened on the fly. Hickman adjusted to stuff as it happened. TChalla's prominence and actions were both preset [ he was the clear Moral Compass of NA in the opening arc, AND he was the biz by clocking Black Swan and whatnot ] and reactionary [ the books that TChalla led sold less to the hatin LCBRD, so TChalla's role was reduced ]. A lot of what we want would have happened if the LCBRD enthusiastically embraced HICKMAN BP and sang his praises as the "leader" of The Illuminati. But. Didn't happen.

WHICH MAKES COATES' OPENING ARC FOR TCHALLA'S SOLO COMPLETELY ASS. AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. WE BUILD OFF OF THE ENTHUSIASTIC SUPPORTERS LOOKING FOR 'CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR BLACK PANTHER" IN COATES' BOOK, ONLY TO FIND "RAPE CAMP WAKANDA" AND "OFF HIS GAME BLACK PANTHER". THAT DECISION WAS MADE PROBABLY IN THE PITCH COATES GAVE TO MARVEL, AND MARVEL ACCEPTED IT.  AND MARVEL KNEW AHEAD OF TIME THAT THEY HAD A HIT WITH CAPTAIN AMERICA CIVIL WAR, AND THEY KNEW THEY WANTED BP TO BE A BIG STAR. WHICH MEANS THAT COATES' BP IS GONNA GET GANXTA ON EVERYONE RIGHTABOUT ISSUE 8.

BUT THAT OPENING ARC WITH THE RAPE CAMPS IS STILL INDEFENSIBLY ASSTASTIC.


4. Other thing I didn't like about Hickman's BP? Not enough serious fighting skills from BP. Yes, I know that Hickman isn't the fisticuffs guy. But still. Other than puttin them 5th Ward things on Namor? TChalla wasn't really serving heads in hand to hand. Which he SHOULD HAVE done. Hand to hand, he should have gotten into Black Dwarf ON PANEL and Corvus. Unequivocally. No statement about "...he could have beaten me...". Plus, TChalla should have scored a clean victory over The Golden Society's Batman. C'mon Hickman. I know you love Bats and you're smart enough to know that the LCBRD loves Bats more than TChalla and therefore the sales of that book would have been negatively affected if TChalla stomped the daylights out of The Great Society's Batman [ which he would have realistically done if you look at their stats ], you could have shown TChalla and TGS BATMAN being closely matched like Captain America vs Batman. You didn't need to show TChalla conceding any damn thing. TChalla would NEVER do that.

Or. Show that TChalla's "conceding" was just another Machiavellian manipulation allowing TChalla to get the upper hand where he wanted to get it. CJP style.








^^^Looking at these panels and given the passage of time which allows passions to cool? The reality is that I was right before. Hickman DID NOT really diss TChalla. TChalla didn't say that TGS BATMAN actually WAS a better fighter than him, TChalla said TGS BATMAN "...POSSIBLY better than I..." which is true. Batman tied with Captain America in the JLA/CAPTAIN AMERICA cross over, but also [ the biiig difference ] IT WAS BATMAN WHO ADMITTED THAT CAP MIGHT BE BETTER THAN HIM, not the other way around.

TChalla still should have shown better skills, though. He should have hit TGS BATMAN.

Now, some of the good stuff that Hickman did [ because we could fill like 90 threads with things that we disagree with Hickman on ]....


1. Hickman made it more clear and more obvious and more consistent with his characterization of TChalla being a Top 3 MU megagenius by regularly having TChalla, Iron Man and Reed Richards [ Richards is imo the very clear #1 favorite of Hickman's ] constantly confab amongst each other exclusively to resolve the thorniest problems that the MU has ever had. It's not even close. He even took the time to very clearly distinguish the specifics of the character qualities of each of these three men to a much higher degreethan anyone NOT named CJP. And he exploited the biggest and highest profile in the biggest baddest most important book in the MU to do this. We saw a lot of good work done for TChalla by Hickman.

2. DOOM does THIS to the mighty Thanos:



TChalla and Namor arrive, with TChalla in the lead. Ganxta style.




TChalla does THIS to DOOM:



 It doesn't ends like this:





It ends like THIS:




For the record? I would have written TChalla whoopin Doom hand to hand, displaying his amazing fighting skill and prowess. Then Doom would have upped the ante and they, as Hickman wrote, would have fought to:"...end this as Gods..." and Doom [ holder of the aggregate powers of The Beyonders and Molecule Men ] would have won, after a protracted battle that showed TChalla's wile in the face of overwhelming power.

Then TChalla would have turned the tables one more once, as Hickman has TChalla do with the Time or Reality Gem [ I'm going with TChalla rockin The Reality Infinity Gem here, as various aspects of the previous timeline were left unchanged ].





Hold up. Gtg. I will finish this post later. The essential point I'm making is that Hickman had his good and bad moments with TChalla inevitabl because of where and who TChalla was at that time in the MU [ pre-CAPTAIN AMERICA CIVIL WAR, PRE-HYPE FOR TCHALLA'S SOLO MOVIE FRANCHISE ], which Hickman frankly made up for by having TChalla pull off the second greatest feat in the history of the Marvel Universe [ restoring the 616 ] while Reed pulled off by far THEE GREATEST feat in the MU [ restoring ALL OF CREATION, essentially becoming a sub for The Beyonders ].

 Sooo that last part on Battleworld? Showing up with The Marvel Zombies under his command as The King Of The Dead [ hella sweet, btw. Hella. Hella. Sweet ] ?Outwitting Doom [ which we clamored for since the opening of DOOMWAR ], doing the impossible by battling the All-Powerful Doom to a near draw? Manipulating the colossal powers Doom and MM unleashed to restore the 616? Yeah. That trumps all of the sucka stuff that TChalla went through. Doesn't ERASE such Suckaville things. It TRUMPS the Suckaville status by a loonnnng shot. Imo, at least. 

Whereas Coates hasn't even gotten through his first arc [ 3 or 4 issues, depending on your perspective ]. And we know already that at some point TChalla and the Dora Milaje mend their fences and gitz bizzy with the bad guys and gals. So. Even with the unforgivable claptrap of RAPE CAMPS? We know that TChalla comes out of this smelling like roses.

But I don't like the auguring of "Wakanda's last days" and stuff. I somewhat dread what that means. I don't buy into the idea that Wakanda gets wiped out [ AGAIN ], but there def seems to be some lasting damage being dealt to Wakanda. And man. I am sick to death of that.

 Wakanda. Not just TChalla. Not just Shuri. WAKANDA. Needs to score a much needed. Very clear. Very emphatic victory. Wakanda needs that "SEE WAKANDA AND DIE" moment. .

I'm hoping that we see that from Coates. I'm pulling for it. I haven't abandoned all hope that such won't happen.

 But I have been jaded by past events sufficiently enough to not hold out for that. Which is NOT a good thing.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 12:13:14 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Offline The Wakandan

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The irony in all of this, is that I seem to remember calling out Hickman's take on T'Challa for being wildly inconsistent and totally out of character, only to have my views derided by some as being hateful.

Hickman's take on T'Challa was praised by some as being something "awesome that had never been done before" as regarded raising the characters profile to headier heights but now, in the wake of Coates's rather dismissive and very deliberate running down of T'Challa and Wakanda, can any of my previous detractors honestly say that I was wrong in predicting that the blanket acceptance of Hickman's milquetoast T'Challa would eventually result in the broken character and mythos we currently see unfolding before our very eyes?

I've always tended to look at the bigger picture as opposed to being bamboozled by empty spectactle so none of the BS that Coates has pulled thus far, has come as a suprise to me.

And it just so happens that Coates has cited the Hickman run specifically as a run that really caught his attention. A run that is clearly influencing Coates' current story arc, both in-story and via Coates' writing.

The reality is that Coates is merely following a path the Hickman run has left open and upping the ante this time around. Hickman ruffled a humangous amount of feathers during his run and barely did anything to address them directly, using off-panel resolutions, time jumps, and the eventual reset instead to "solve" them. Doing this simply left those this up to the next writer.

Perhaps if the majority of BP fandom, both online and off, were to disapprove of the Hickman's decisions, it might've affected Hickman and/or Coates' direction. But the opposite happened. Many ppl, and perhaps the majority of fans, seem to have approved of what Hickman has done. 

Now that the BP franchise is gaining momentum in the public eye and is being marketed via Marvel, the MCU, and even Coates himself, I get the feeling that those who disapprove of Coates' direction might not only be--like with Hickman--in the minority, but this time might be deemed irrelevant, especially if the book sells as well as it currently is and continues to get good reviews. The time to call these things out was back then. At the moment, unless the story arc turns into complete crap in the later issues, I fear that perhaps that ship has sailed, till at least the next story arc.

Fans should continue voicing their opinions and grievances of course, but I've begun to accept the reality of the situation once #1 and #2's sales numbers was released. At this point, I'll just hope for the best and, if needed, vote with my wallet should the time come.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 12:36:07 pm by The Wakandan »

Offline Salustrade

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No disrespect to you Supreme Illuminati, but I'm not about to read an entire wall of text making excuses for what Hickman did with T'Challa.

There is absolutely ZERO reason why the likes of Reed' Tony or Doom should be immune from getting their respective ass's handed to them whilst T#Challa gets to be the perrenial whipping boy ad infinitum.

Accepting second class status has never worked out well for anyone and by automatically accepting a status quo that was set up by a bigot back in the 70's now ably supported and sustained by a modern day Uncle Tom masquerading as a concious writer, we would be doing ourselves a major disservice across the board.

Coates claimed that he was open to letters and feedback from fans/readers.

How many cats posting both here and on CBR have taken the time out to do so?

I know I have.

Offline Kimoyo

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Clearly T'Challa is not elevated/restored as a result of his inclusion in Hickman's horror opus as was predicted.  SI's own excellent post on the CJP established/embellished traits points out as much.  The character's inclusion in the MCU along with Coates' celebrity are the likely reasons BP is selling so well right now. 

As far as writing letters, I feel as though Coates had his story formed and issues in the can before we even knew he would be helming the new Black Panther?  I would like to think he would have perused the HEF for a sense of what fans would like to see and happily pay for as part of his research?  I did think about writing a letter but what could he change now?

Peace,

Mont

Offline Salustrade

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Clearly T'Challa is not elevated/restored as a result of his inclusion in Hickman's horror opus as was predicted.  SI's own excellent post on the CJP established/embellished traits points out as much.  The character's inclusion in the MCU along with Coates' celebrity are the likely reasons BP is selling so well right now. 

As far as writing letters, I feel as though Coates had his story formed and issues in the can before we even knew he would be helming the new Black Panther?  I would like to think he would have perused the HEF for a sense of what fans would like to see and happily pay for as part of his research?  I did think about writing a letter but what could he change now?

Peace,

Mont

I somehow doubt Coates is interested in anything other than gushing praise.

Offline supreme illuminati

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The irony in all of this, is that I seem to remember calling out Hickman's take on T'Challa for being wildly inconsistent and totally out of character, only to have my views derided by some as being hateful.

Hickman's take on T'Challa was praised by some as being something "awesome that had never been done before" as regarded raising the characters profile to headier heights but now, in the wake of Coates's rather dismissive and very deliberate running down of T'Challa and Wakanda, can any of my previous detractors honestly say that I was wrong in predicting that the blanket acceptance of Hickman's milquetoast T'Challa would eventually result in the broken character and mythos we currently see unfolding before our very eyes?

I've always tended to look at the bigger picture as opposed to being bamboozled by empty spectactle so none of the BS that Coates has pulled thus far, has come as a suprise to me.

And it just so happens that Coates has cited the Hickman run specifically as a run that really caught his attention. A run that is clearly influencing Coates' current story arc, both in-story and via Coates' writing.

The reality is that Coates is merely following a path the Hickman run has left open and upping the ante this time around. Hickman ruffled a humangous amount of feathers during his run and barely did anything to address them directly, using off-panel resolutions, time jumps, and the eventual reset instead to "solve" them. Doing this simply left those this up to the next writer.

Perhaps if the majority of BP fandom, both online and off, were to disapprove of the Hickman's decisions, it might've affected Hickman and/or Coates' direction. But the opposite happened. Many ppl, and perhaps the majority of fans, seem to have approved of what Hickman has done. 

Now that the BP franchise is gaining momentum in the public eye and is being marketed via Marvel, the MCU, and even Coates himself, I get the feeling that those who disapprove of Coates' direction might not only be--like with Hickman--in the minority, but this time might be deemed irrelevant, especially if the book sells as well as it currently is and continues to get good reviews. The time to call these things out was back then. At the moment, unless the story arc turns into complete crap in the later issues, I fear that perhaps that ship has sailed, till at least the next story arc.

Fans should continue voicing their opinions and grievances of course, but I've begun to accept the reality of the situation once #1 and #2's sales numbers was released. At this point, I'll just hope for the best and, if needed, vote with my wallet should the time come.


Mark my words. If Coates' BP doesn't get crazy help from THE ULTIMATES and CIVIL WAR II and stuff? BP will drop below 50k sales by issue 5. And that number will keep dropping if BP is played as a sucka in his own book.

But TChalla is going hunting for Shuri. You know what that means? Brother and sister Panthers. In war. Against bad guys. Together. Written by a Black author. At last.

Maybe. Just maybe. We have that glimmer of hope turning into a ray of a turnaround come issue 4. Seems like it's gonna happen.
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Offline Ezyo

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The irony in all of this, is that I seem to remember calling out Hickman's take on T'Challa for being wildly inconsistent and totally out of character, only to have my views derided by some as being hateful.

Hickman's take on T'Challa was praised by some as being something "awesome that had never been done before" as regarded raising the characters profile to headier heights but now, in the wake of Coates's rather dismissive and very deliberate running down of T'Challa and Wakanda, can any of my previous detractors honestly say that I was wrong in predicting that the blanket acceptance of Hickman's milquetoast T'Challa would eventually result in the broken character and mythos we currently see unfolding before our very eyes?

I've always tended to look at the bigger picture as opposed to being bamboozled by empty spectactle so none of the BS that Coates has pulled thus far, has come as a suprise to me.

And it just so happens that Coates has cited the Hickman run specifically as a run that really caught his attention. A run that is clearly influencing Coates' current story arc, both in-story and via Coates' writing.

The reality is that Coates is merely following a path the Hickman run has left open and upping the ante this time around. Hickman ruffled a humangous amount of feathers during his run and barely did anything to address them directly, using off-panel resolutions, time jumps, and the eventual reset instead to "solve" them. Doing this simply left those this up to the next writer.

Perhaps if the majority of BP fandom, both online and off, were to disapprove of the Hickman's decisions, it might've affected Hickman and/or Coates' direction. But the opposite happened. Many ppl, and perhaps the majority of fans, seem to have approved of what Hickman has done. 

Now that the BP franchise is gaining momentum in the public eye and is being marketed via Marvel, the MCU, and even Coates himself, I get the feeling that those who disapprove of Coates' direction might not only be--like with Hickman--in the minority, but this time might be deemed irrelevant, especially if the book sells as well as it currently is and continues to get good reviews. The time to call these things out was back then. At the moment, unless the story arc turns into complete crap in the later issues, I fear that perhaps that ship has sailed, till at least the next story arc.

Fans should continue voicing their opinions and grievances of course, but I've begun to accept the reality of the situation once #1 and #2's sales numbers was released. At this point, I'll just hope for the best and, if needed, vote with my wallet should the time come.


Mark my words. If Coates' BP doesn't get crazy help from THE ULTIMATES and CIVIL WAR II and stuff? BP will drop below 50k sales by issue 5. And that number will keep dropping if BP is played as a sucka in his own book.

But TChalla is going hunting for Shuri. You know what that means? Brother and sister Panthers. In war. Against bad guys. Together. Written by a Black author. At last.

Maybe. Just maybe. We have that glimmer of hope turning into a ray of a turnaround come issue 4. Seems like it's gonna happen.

I Dunno if you read the solicits but they sre up to 6 and it doesn't look great tbh.. however I hope at the retaliation starts on issue 5 like the solicits sound, rather then having to wait all the way till issue 7 or further to see him turn it around. However if you read the solicits in order, it shows almost like it's being set up for the MA to take over which is not okay. Because this  the Black Panther King, warrior, superhero needs to stay that way

Offline The Wakandan

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The irony in all of this, is that I seem to remember calling out Hickman's take on T'Challa for being wildly inconsistent and totally out of character, only to have my views derided by some as being hateful.

Hickman's take on T'Challa was praised by some as being something "awesome that had never been done before" as regarded raising the characters profile to headier heights but now, in the wake of Coates's rather dismissive and very deliberate running down of T'Challa and Wakanda, can any of my previous detractors honestly say that I was wrong in predicting that the blanket acceptance of Hickman's milquetoast T'Challa would eventually result in the broken character and mythos we currently see unfolding before our very eyes?

I've always tended to look at the bigger picture as opposed to being bamboozled by empty spectactle so none of the BS that Coates has pulled thus far, has come as a suprise to me.

And it just so happens that Coates has cited the Hickman run specifically as a run that really caught his attention. A run that is clearly influencing Coates' current story arc, both in-story and via Coates' writing.

The reality is that Coates is merely following a path the Hickman run has left open and upping the ante this time around. Hickman ruffled a humangous amount of feathers during his run and barely did anything to address them directly, using off-panel resolutions, time jumps, and the eventual reset instead to "solve" them. Doing this simply left those this up to the next writer.

Perhaps if the majority of BP fandom, both online and off, were to disapprove of the Hickman's decisions, it might've affected Hickman and/or Coates' direction. But the opposite happened. Many ppl, and perhaps the majority of fans, seem to have approved of what Hickman has done. 

Now that the BP franchise is gaining momentum in the public eye and is being marketed via Marvel, the MCU, and even Coates himself, I get the feeling that those who disapprove of Coates' direction might not only be--like with Hickman--in the minority, but this time might be deemed irrelevant, especially if the book sells as well as it currently is and continues to get good reviews. The time to call these things out was back then. At the moment, unless the story arc turns into complete crap in the later issues, I fear that perhaps that ship has sailed, till at least the next story arc.

Fans should continue voicing their opinions and grievances of course, but I've begun to accept the reality of the situation once #1 and #2's sales numbers was released. At this point, I'll just hope for the best and, if needed, vote with my wallet should the time come.


Mark my words. If Coates' BP doesn't get crazy help from THE ULTIMATES and CIVIL WAR II and stuff? BP will drop below 50k sales by issue 5. And that number will keep dropping if BP is played as a sucka in his own book.

But TChalla is going hunting for Shuri. You know what that means? Brother and sister Panthers. In war. Against bad guys. Together. Written by a Black author. At last.

Maybe. Just maybe. We have that glimmer of hope turning into a ray of a turnaround come issue 4. Seems like it's gonna happen.

I hope you are right, S.I.. Based on the solicits, the situation is looking kinda bleak, even in issue 6.

Offline supreme illuminati

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The irony in all of this, is that I seem to remember calling out Hickman's take on T'Challa for being wildly inconsistent and totally out of character, only to have my views derided by some as being hateful.

Hickman's take on T'Challa was praised by some as being something "awesome that had never been done before" as regarded raising the characters profile to headier heights but now, in the wake of Coates's rather dismissive and very deliberate running down of T'Challa and Wakanda, can any of my previous detractors honestly say that I was wrong in predicting that the blanket acceptance of Hickman's milquetoast T'Challa would eventually result in the broken character and mythos we currently see unfolding before our very eyes?

I've always tended to look at the bigger picture as opposed to being bamboozled by empty spectactle so none of the BS that Coates has pulled thus far, has come as a suprise to me.

And it just so happens that Coates has cited the Hickman run specifically as a run that really caught his attention. A run that is clearly influencing Coates' current story arc, both in-story and via Coates' writing.

The reality is that Coates is merely following a path the Hickman run has left open and upping the ante this time around. Hickman ruffled a humangous amount of feathers during his run and barely did anything to address them directly, using off-panel resolutions, time jumps, and the eventual reset instead to "solve" them. Doing this simply left those this up to the next writer.

Perhaps if the majority of BP fandom, both online and off, were to disapprove of the Hickman's decisions, it might've affected Hickman and/or Coates' direction. But the opposite happened. Many ppl, and perhaps the majority of fans, seem to have approved of what Hickman has done. 

Now that the BP franchise is gaining momentum in the public eye and is being marketed via Marvel, the MCU, and even Coates himself, I get the feeling that those who disapprove of Coates' direction might not only be--like with Hickman--in the minority, but this time might be deemed irrelevant, especially if the book sells as well as it currently is and continues to get good reviews. The time to call these things out was back then. At the moment, unless the story arc turns into complete crap in the later issues, I fear that perhaps that ship has sailed, till at least the next story arc.

Fans should continue voicing their opinions and grievances of course, but I've begun to accept the reality of the situation once #1 and #2's sales numbers was released. At this point, I'll just hope for the best and, if needed, vote with my wallet should the time come.


Mark my words. If Coates' BP doesn't get crazy help from THE ULTIMATES and CIVIL WAR II and stuff? BP will drop below 50k sales by issue 5. And that number will keep dropping if BP is played as a sucka in his own book.

But TChalla is going hunting for Shuri. You know what that means? Brother and sister Panthers. In war. Against bad guys. Together. Written by a Black author. At last.

Maybe. Just maybe. We have that glimmer of hope turning into a ray of a turnaround come issue 4. Seems like it's gonna happen.

I hope you are right, S.I.. Based on the solicits, the situation is looking kinda bleak, even in issue 6.


I hope so, too!

But that Soul Tech we saw TChalla make? Might be the start of him doing some other stuff to handle ole gurl and The People.
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline Ezyo

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The irony in all of this, is that I seem to remember calling out Hickman's take on T'Challa for being wildly inconsistent and totally out of character, only to have my views derided by some as being hateful.

Hickman's take on T'Challa was praised by some as being something "awesome that had never been done before" as regarded raising the characters profile to headier heights but now, in the wake of Coates's rather dismissive and very deliberate running down of T'Challa and Wakanda, can any of my previous detractors honestly say that I was wrong in predicting that the blanket acceptance of Hickman's milquetoast T'Challa would eventually result in the broken character and mythos we currently see unfolding before our very eyes?

I've always tended to look at the bigger picture as opposed to being bamboozled by empty spectactle so none of the BS that Coates has pulled thus far, has come as a suprise to me.

And it just so happens that Coates has cited the Hickman run specifically as a run that really caught his attention. A run that is clearly influencing Coates' current story arc, both in-story and via Coates' writing.

The reality is that Coates is merely following a path the Hickman run has left open and upping the ante this time around. Hickman ruffled a humangous amount of feathers during his run and barely did anything to address them directly, using off-panel resolutions, time jumps, and the eventual reset instead to "solve" them. Doing this simply left those this up to the next writer.

Perhaps if the majority of BP fandom, both online and off, were to disapprove of the Hickman's decisions, it might've affected Hickman and/or Coates' direction. But the opposite happened. Many ppl, and perhaps the majority of fans, seem to have approved of what Hickman has done. 

Now that the BP franchise is gaining momentum in the public eye and is being marketed via Marvel, the MCU, and even Coates himself, I get the feeling that those who disapprove of Coates' direction might not only be--like with Hickman--in the minority, but this time might be deemed irrelevant, especially if the book sells as well as it currently is and continues to get good reviews. The time to call these things out was back then. At the moment, unless the story arc turns into complete crap in the later issues, I fear that perhaps that ship has sailed, till at least the next story arc.

Fans should continue voicing their opinions and grievances of course, but I've begun to accept the reality of the situation once #1 and #2's sales numbers was released. At this point, I'll just hope for the best and, if needed, vote with my wallet should the time come.


Mark my words. If Coates' BP doesn't get crazy help from THE ULTIMATES and CIVIL WAR II and stuff? BP will drop below 50k sales by issue 5. And that number will keep dropping if BP is played as a sucka in his own book.

But TChalla is going hunting for Shuri. You know what that means? Brother and sister Panthers. In war. Against bad guys. Together. Written by a Black author. At last.

Maybe. Just maybe. We have that glimmer of hope turning into a ray of a turnaround come issue 4. Seems like it's gonna happen.

I hope you are right, S.I.. Based on the solicits, the situation is looking kinda bleak, even in issue 6.


I hope so, too!

But that Soul Tech we saw TChalla make? Might be the start of him doing some other stuff to handle ole gurl and The People.

I mean by the sounds of it that sould tech would be pretty badass, though i wonder if that conversation with Ramonda is towards the end of issue 3 so we won't see it put to use till the next issue, which hopefully isn't the case as i want to see something cool happen that can be gained as a new feat. I hope Coates also atleast puts out some smaller but powerful foes that we know are superhuman that T'challa can smackdown with.

But we will see, Issue 5 if the solicits are something true may be when the retaliation from T'Challa starts, will be interesting to see as for the first time since priest we will get a clear look at what the Hatute Zeraze can do

Offline supreme illuminati

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There is absolutely ZERO reason why the likes of Reed' Tony or Doom should be immune from getting their respective ass's handed to them whilst T#Challa gets to be the perrenial whipping boy ad infinitum.



No argument. AT ALL. The quintessential truth of TChalla is that he is PERPETUALLY THE OPPOSITE OF ANY KIND OF WHIPPING BOY. He's not invincible. But oh man. If he catches an "L"? IF. He does? He ain't really.

Because just about nobody hands TChalla a clean "L". CJP and RH's history making runs were essentially dedicated to that single truth. I mean...just about nobody hands TCHALLA HIMSELF a clean "L". We ain't even stepped to what Wakanda can do when she goes all out. We haven't even considered what Shuri...the Deadliest of The Species...can do when she's unfettered. We haven't even contemplated what the two of them could do together.

Imagine a combo of Batman+Iron Man+Lady Shiva+Vixen+Shaman+Brother Voodoo+Zelma+Magik. And multiply that by 5, in certain categories. That's where you start when you're messing with TChalla and Shuri together. Shuri is the deadliest woman "street level" fighter in the MU. She'd mop Elektra. And most men in the MU, too. She'd mop Falcon. And Winter Soldier. And Battlestar. And the Super Skrull TChalla fought. And...you get the point.

Even though I can clearly see and respect the other side of the fence? I just don't agree with it. I agree with your quote up there, Sal. Especially. Especially. With the incredible momentum BP has from Captain America: Civil War the MOVIE. I just. Cannot. Agree. With stomping on TChalla. Some more.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 03:02:03 pm by supreme illuminati »
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline The Wakandan

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BP #2 recap video.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 06:10:14 pm by The Wakandan »

Offline supreme illuminati

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BP #2 recap video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXaBwBoZ5l8


I like this. And I am glad that Coates took the time out to rock this with Stelfreeze and of course my bruthas from RUN THE JEWELS!!
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline Rurouni KJS

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Haven't read the preview, reserving my thoughts for the issue tomorrow.

At this point, I'm a ride or die Panther fan, so I'ma buy this title regardless. But I'm not highly encouraged by the initial direction.

Marvel's solo titles changed with the success of Matt Fraction's Hawkeye. There we got a Clint Barton who was much more human and fallible than the superheroic figure he cut as a member of the Avengers. Pretty much every single solo Marvel title released since has followed suit with this approach, including BP.

Problem is, T'Challa has not had enough recent superheroic moments to properly contrast with the "all too down to earth" take Marvel likes to do with solo titles. Ideally, he'd be getting these big moments in Ultimates, but it's not happening there, either.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 07:50:32 am by Rurouni KJS »

Offline Salustrade

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BP #2 recap video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXaBwBoZ5l8

I can't wait for this douchebags wretched run to come to an end.