Author Topic: Termination and Liberation for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther Finale  (Read 823122 times)

Offline Salustrade

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Coates version is phenomenal and well written.. believe he will correct the issues with placing T'Challa in the center of all action.  There's no way he can galavant around the universe playing super hero without costs....heavy is the head that rests the crown.



Offline Ezyo

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Coates version is phenomenal and well written.. believe he will correct the issues with placing T'Challa in the center of all action.  There's no way he can galavant around the universe playing super hero without costs....heavy is the head that rests the crown.





Hey everyone is entitled to their opinion, we got fans on all sides

Offline Salustrade

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Coates version is phenomenal and well written.. believe he will correct the issues with placing T'Challa in the center of all action.  There's no way he can galavant around the universe playing super hero without costs....heavy is the head that rests the crown.





Was there anything in my post that indicated that the poster I responded to was not entitled to his or her opinion?
Hey everyone is entitled to their opinion, we got fans on all sides

Offline Ezyo

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Coates version is phenomenal and well written.. believe he will correct the issues with placing T'Challa in the center of all action.  There's no way he can galavant around the universe playing super hero without costs....heavy is the head that rests the crown.


 



Was there anything in my post that indicated that the poster I responded to was not entitled to his or her opinion?
Hey everyone is entitled to their opinion, we got fans on all sides
^^^^^^Lol



« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 04:10:09 pm by Ezyo »

Offline Ture

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Coates version is phenomenal and well written.. believe he will correct the issues with placing T'Challa in the center of all action.  There's no way he can galavant around the universe playing super hero without costs....heavy is the head that rests the crown.





Lol!!! Perfect, simply perfect.Now that was a good one.
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Offline Metro

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I ripped Priest's writing in 2000 for not giving T'Challa decisive victories (and went further with criticism that impacted how he handled Rhodey in "The Crew"), especially after his comments about black audiences in "The Client" tpb.

It is striking to hear those notes echoed about Coates' first arc. I think I'm going to reserve judgment until issue 5 or 6.

What did Priest say about black audiences?

Thanks for giving me an excuse to pull the TPB off the shelf. :-)

"That's my pet peeve with a lot of black film and black comedians: it's all White People Bashing, fueled by *our race's legacy of anger and resentment by centuries-old unreparative wrongs.  But this hostility polarizes rather than unites. There is no healing in it and it limits our opportunities." (Christopher Priest, June 2001)

I can see his perspective. Obama has said many similar sentences. However, I will always be opposed to reducing the "legacy" of black people to "anger and resentment," especially when writing to a mostly white audience.
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Offline Salustrade

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I ripped Priest's writing in 2000 for not giving T'Challa decisive victories (and went further with criticism that impacted how he handled Rhodey in "The Crew"), especially after his comments about black audiences in "The Client" tpb.

It is striking to hear those notes echoed about Coates' first arc. I think I'm going to reserve judgment until issue 5 or 6.

What did Priest say about black audiences?

Thanks for giving me an excuse to pull the TPB off the shelf. :-)

"That's my pet peeve with a lot of black film and black comedians: it's all White People Bashing, fueled by *our race's legacy of anger and resentment by centuries-old unreparative wrongs.  But this hostility polarizes rather than unites. There is no healing in it and it limits our opportunities." (Christopher Priest, June 2001)

I can see his perspective. Obama has said many similar sentences. However, I will always be opposed to reducing the "legacy" of black people to "anger and resentment," especially when writing to a mostly white audience.

Agreed 100%

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Right now I'm not considering waiting for the trade.


I am waiting for








With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Right now I'm not considering waiting for the trade.


I am waiting for








POW!! I'm getting those...
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Offline Emperorjones

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I ripped Priest's writing in 2000 for not giving T'Challa decisive victories (and went further with criticism that impacted how he handled Rhodey in "The Crew"), especially after his comments about black audiences in "The Client" tpb.

It is striking to hear those notes echoed about Coates' first arc. I think I'm going to reserve judgment until issue 5 or 6.

What did Priest say about black audiences?

Thanks for giving me an excuse to pull the TPB off the shelf. :-)

"That's my pet peeve with a lot of black film and black comedians: it's all White People Bashing, fueled by *our race's legacy of anger and resentment by centuries-old unreparative wrongs.  But this hostility polarizes rather than unites. There is no healing in it and it limits our opportunities." (Christopher Priest, June 2001)

I can see his perspective. Obama has said many similar sentences. However, I will always be opposed to reducing the "legacy" of black people to "anger and resentment," especially when writing to a mostly white audience.

That statement by Priest always rankled me. I think its a skewered perspective. Have whites been the target of jokes by black comedians and in some black films? Yes. But blacks have also been the butt of jokes in white films. And there's a lack of empathy in understanding the cathartic release that poking fun at white people provides, its one of the small arrows that black people possess. Black people have no power in this society and in those scenes or skits critical of whites I would argue some of them illustrate that by often having whites as the 'squares' but still smart and as authority figures of some sort. Plus jokes about whites don't translate to policies that are detrimental to white life outcomes. No white person-outside of maybe having their feelings hurt-will be affected by any black film, unlike the entire history of white cinema and how it has been used to warp people's perceptions against black people and other non-white people.

Black people don't control Hollywood, so heck, how many of those 'white bashing' films got greenlighted or distributed by white studios?

Plus many black films are not all 'white bashing', so I wonder where is he getting that perception from? His white colleagues? And I also don't like the idea that we have to make white people feel comfortable. There are some things, if you are writing from a black perspective or covering aspects of black history that will likely not make white people comfortable, so going there, is that 'white bashing' or truth telling?

I don't like the idea of caping for white people, and I think its very apt that you mention Obama who does that quite a bit too. When he went to West Africa early in his presidency and told us to think of the black slaves in the slave forts and the white slavers above them in church (I believe he said church), it was galling. Sometimes there is no balancing of scales, no moral equivalency, and the attempt to seek one is not being true to the black experience, but its all in the effort of pleasing, mollifying, and serving whites.

A lot of white creators damn sure aren't caping for us. Now we are getting more sensitive portrayals in comics and other media, but it is still often from a white perspective. And even when we get a perceptive guy like Coates writing Black Panther, we are arguing now on this thread about who he is really writing for or to.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 12:48:08 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Booshman

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It IS a skewed perspective. Because I have constantly found that for white people it's actually HARD for them to be ACTUALLY offended, when they hear white people jokes. I'm not talking about the "phony outraged for a talking point" ones. I mean your average white person when they hear such jokes. Because they usually involve silly things like having the inability to dance, having bland food, tourist dads in socks and sandals, white girls in yoga pants who are obsessed with pumpkin spice lattes, suburban PTA moms, and other harmless stereotypes. While jokes about POC usually involve them being called thugs, criminals, slurs, unthinking robots , uneducated, illegal immigrants, and a whole laundry list of things that can (and have often been) used to effect policy decisions.

With white people jokes, they’re usually really funny and don’t perpetuate stereotypes that will ever affect them economically, politically, or cause them any true harm. Let alone being used to “justify” their murder and/or death.

No one has ever said “Well they DO all like Starbucks!” to seriously justify a white child dying.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 06:23:49 pm by Booshman »

Offline supreme illuminati

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I ripped Priest's writing in 2000 for not giving T'Challa decisive victories (and went further with criticism that impacted how he handled Rhodey in "The Crew"), especially after his comments about black audiences in "The Client" tpb.

It is striking to hear those notes echoed about Coates' first arc. I think I'm going to reserve judgment until issue 5 or 6.

What did Priest say about black audiences?

Thanks for giving me an excuse to pull the TPB off the shelf. :-)

"That's my pet peeve with a lot of black film and black comedians: it's all White People Bashing, fueled by *our race's legacy of anger and resentment by centuries-old unreparative wrongs.  But this hostility polarizes rather than unites. There is no healing in it and it limits our opportunities." (Christopher Priest, June 2001)

I can see his perspective. Obama has said many similar sentences. However, I will always be opposed to reducing the "legacy" of black people to "anger and resentment," especially when writing to a mostly white audience.

That statement by Priest always rankled me. I think its a skewered perspective. Have whites been the target of jokes by black comedians and in some black films? Yes. But blacks have also been the butt of jokes in white films. And there's a lack of empathy in understanding the cathartic release that poking fun at white people provides, its one of the small arrows that black people possess. Black people have no power in this society and in those scenes or skits critical of whites I would argue some of them illustrate that by often having whites as the 'squares' but still smart and as authority figures of some sort. Plus jokes about whites don't translate to policies that are detrimental to white life outcomes. No white person-outside of maybe having their feelings hurt-will be affected by any black film, unlike the entire history of white cinema and how it has been used to warp people's perceptions against black people and other non-white people.

Black people don't control Hollywood, so heck, how many of those 'white bashing' films got greenlighted or distributed by white studios?

Plus many black films are not all 'white bashing', so I wonder where is he getting that perception from? His white colleagues? And I also don't like the idea that we have to make white people feel comfortable. There are some things, if you are writing from a black perspective or covering aspects of black history that will likely not make white people comfortable, so going there, is that 'white bashing' or truth telling?

I don't like the idea of caping for white people, and I think its very apt that you mention Obama who does that quite a bit too. When he went to West Africa early in his presidency and told us to think of the black slaves in the slave forts and the white slavers above them in church (I believe he said church), it was galling. Sometimes there is no balancing of scales, no moral equivalency, and the attempt to seek one is not being true to the black experience, but its all in the effort of pleasing, mollifying, and serving whites.

A lot of white creators damn sure aren't caping for us. Now we are getting more sensitive portrayals in comics and other media, but it is still often from a white perspective. And even when we get a perceptive guy like Coates writing Black Panther, we are arguing now on this thread about who he is really writing for or to.


I agree with 100% of the above except two things:


1. Priest actually was saying that most people who buy comics [ in the 1990's when he wrote this, or thereabouts ] were White guys. He said that if he were a White guy, he wouldn't want to buy and read a comic book wherein White people were always some offensive stereotype. Clearly, White folks have voted unanimously with their pocketbooks on that issue. There are zero books on the shelves constantly and offensively dissing White folks.

Priest was dead on target with that.

Where he went off target...I agree with you...was by OVERgeneralizing Black comedy, etc. MOST Black comedy DOES NOT make a consistent point of offensively pillorying White folks. End of story. 

2. The Obama thing. I want to see that speech again to refresh my memory, but...the mental image I got from the speech he gave actually called to mind how some White slavers actually sang Christian hymns while cracking the slave whip at the slave pens on the West Coast of Afrika. I didn't think of a pious group of morally upstanding White folks at all. They weren't real abolitionists who actually believed in real human equality, like some of Thaddeus Stevens' more extreme Radical Republicans pre-and-during-Reconstruction. Did Obama actually specifically mention upstanding White folks in church in conjunction with Afrikan slaves? You got the video?
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Offline Emperorjones

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^

Thanks for the reply. I'll start with Obama. I found the speech, the first clip I am posting, and Obama's b.s. starts around 1:50, where he encourages one of his daughters to put herself in the shoes of slaves and slavers. But to be fair, I also put in a clip of an Obama speech that sounds more in line with what you suggested he discussed.  And I see this as part of who Obama is, a divided man in some respects who has had to do that for his whole life. However I don't think its conducive to all black people to do that. Yes, we have to learn how to navigate in a white dominated country and world, but not to actually take on and empathize with slavers or oppressors? Obama does compare the slave forts/slavery to the Jewish Holocaust, but we know that Obama would never link the Nazis and Jewish Holocaust victims the same way he did in Ghana. He would not say that he teaches Sasha or Malia to also think of the Nazi death camp guards who thought they were doing right or that loved their children.

With Priest, I agree with you that he was contending with how to grapple with how to get white readership/support for black books, particularly Black Panther. But I disagree that there a ton of were anti-white or white bashing comic books with black characters. I mean you might have had the awkward special issue dealing with race, but a majority of black-fronted books at that time and before were written by white males. So I think the perception, pertaining to comics was exaggerated and illogical, though with white racial anxiety logic is not going to factor much into it anyway. So do you think that this fear of criticism is what keeps whites away from black comics today? I think that's an excuse to mask that white readers aren't that interested, in the whole, for black characters headlining books and never have been. There's an empathy gap and that's present throughout most media. I mean there are the handful of black actors, comedians, and now television producers, that do break through, but its always a handful and they generally are not challenging or criticizing white people, unless very carefully. That being said, I would argue that most comics with black characters, even back in the day, didn't really challenge or criticize white people either.

It brings to mind a scene with Ron Troupe (DC Comics) where he is tearing into his own sister to defend Perry White. His sister is part of protests to get more diversity at the Daily Planet and Troupe lights into her, using White's previous support of civil rights to defend him. It felt so inauthentic and a white person's idea of what a black person should say, but still this is the kind of stuff we've had when it comes to dealing with race in mainstream comics, all too often than not. White people's ideas of what black people are or can be. Granted with Priest, there might have been extra suspicion or anxiety because he was black and he felt a need to mollify whites and convince them that he was no threat, he would not upset them. I get it, but its still sad, and upsetting.

Priest is a comic veteran and he was pragmatically looking at his business and wondering, how do I get more white readers. What I liked about Hudlin was, to me, he thought bigger. He was like, how do I get more black readers and/or readers outside the standard white readership? I'm not hating on Priest. He was looking at things they way they were and working within those confines, but Hudlin, coming from outside the system, with skill in attracting black audiences, brought a different perspective into it and for a while it netted results. Now Coates, I'm curious to see who he is appealing to. I'm guessing white liberals, perhaps some gays, and eventually maybe even some black feminists. So in a way he is like Hudlin, in seeking out new audiences, though it remains to be seen if these new readers will stick around in large enough numbers over time.

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« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 04:37:33 am by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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It IS a skewed perspective. Because I have constantly found that for white people it's actually HARD for them to be ACTUALLY offended, when they hear white people jokes. I'm not talking about the "phony outraged for a talking point" ones. I mean your average white person when they hear such jokes. Because they usually involve silly things like having the inability to dance, having bland food, tourist dads in socks and sandals, white girls in yoga pants who are obsessed with pumpkin spice lattes, suburban PTA moms, and other harmless stereotypes. While jokes about POC usually involve them being called thugs, criminals, slurs, unthinking robots , uneducated, illegal immigrants, and a whole laundry list of things that can (and have often been) used to effect policy decisions.

With white people jokes, they’re usually really funny and don’t perpetuate stereotypes that will ever affect them economically, politically, or cause them any true harm. Let alone being used to “justify” their murder and/or death.

No one has ever said “Well they DO all like Starbucks!” to seriously justify a white child dying.

Good points. And I'll add that black comedians and comedy films and other movies often push black stereotypes that are more damaging than their white jokes or stereotypes.

Offline The Wakandan

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Right now I'm not considering waiting for the trade.


I am waiting for







What's the status of these projects? I've heard of them a few months back, haven't heard much about either project since.