Author Topic: NEW BLACK PANTHER COMIC BOOK - John Ridley's Inverse interview  (Read 1072529 times)

Offline Kimoyo

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I haven't read it yet.  Please tell me that crack/dope was not reintroduced to the country.

No, however I suspect Wakanda is under the influence of an adversary with Shadow King-esque power.  If so, an unsavory, uncharacteristic, even distasteful view of Wakandans is to be expected.  Shadow King stories have been some of the most uncomfortable I've ever read.  Yet, we BP fans have been so mistreated and taken for granted for such a long time, my hope is that Coates and Marvel would spare us any overly drawn out plot development and allow Wakanda its overdue, deserved measure of recovery, hopefully with T'Challa affecting Wakanda's and his own personal restoration.  References to Wakanda as a shining beacon for humanity, Coates stated desire for his work to be regarded as the best, the obvious amount of research done and several other factors give me hope that he has an end game in mind that will resonate favorably with us.  Most of us...no one before Coates, not Priest, not Hudlin, certainly not Hickman (gave him about 8 issues) got T'Challa/Wakanda perfect.

Peace,

Mont

Offline Ezyo

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I haven't read it yet.  Please tell me that crack/dope was not reintroduced to the country.

No, however I suspect Wakanda is under the influence of an adversary with Shadow King-esque power.  If so, an unsavory, uncharacteristic, even distasteful view of Wakandans is to be expected.  Shadow King stories have been some of the most uncomfortable I've ever read.  Yet, we BP fans have been so mistreated and taken for granted for such a long time, my hope is that Coates and Marvel would spare us any overly drawn out plot development and allow Wakanda its overdue, deserved measure of recovery, hopefully with T'Challa affecting Wakanda's and his own personal restoration.  References to Wakanda as a shining beacon for humanity, Coates stated desire for his work to be regarded as the best, the obvious amount of research done and several other factors give me hope that he has an end game in mind that will resonate favorably with us.  Most of us...no one before Coates, not Priest, not Hudlin, certainly not Hickman (gave him about 8 issues) got T'Challa/Wakanda perfect.

Peace,

Mont

Priest and Hudlin have gotten the closest though 8)

Offline Kimoyo

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Agreed Brother Ezyo!

Peace,

Mont

Offline KIP LEWIS

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An Entertainment Weekly review.  I can't remember when EW reviewed another comic.  (They may have, I just never seen one show up in my FB feed before.)

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/08/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panter-1-recap

Offline Ture

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Emperorjones stay knocking it out the box. Another two superb write ups. No worries Hypestyle, they have not reintroduced crack in the pages of BP.

I understand the concern. But again it's only the first issue and previews, it was said on the CBR forums and I'll say it here, Coates said he didn't want to just show the light side of things. Wakanda isn't immune from human corruption, they should definitely be above it to a certain extent as they are kinda the beacon of hope for human advancement. To be honest yes j don't want this to be a promo and prop up for Ayo and Aneka, not because of their sexual orientation, but simply because this is the Black Panther mythos and they are supporting characters and as such should take the back seat to T'Challa as he is the title character.

I know why Priest did what he did as well. He was ahead if the times and had to do what he had to do to get Panther popular. Yes I had issues with his story as well as Hudlin's but both of those writers have written the best BPs to date and will always be the OGs that set the tone for how T'Challa should be and what the movie will be depicting



Why not just show the light side of Wakanda. How else would you demonstrate them being the most advance nation on the globe. Oh I get it they are the most technologically advanced but socially, politically and culturally they are backwardly primitive. We need to see this why?

Wakanda should most certainly be immune to the more base human corruptibles. No hunger, no unemployment, no police brutality, no poverty, no cost housing, no utilities payments, no pollution just to name a few. Wakanda should illuminate the world or at least Afraka with its free education through post doctorate and beyond, , free medical for all for life, environmentally conscious technologies, gender equality and ethnic unicity.

A creative writer would find new challenges for the Black Panther and Wakanda to face instead of reiterating the same old stereotypical societal ills. There is a lot  of positive and productive things going on in the lives of continental and diasporac Afrakans. I dare say there is much positive than negative.


"One in six black men had been incarcerated as of 2001." so why not focus on the five that have not been incarcerated. In addition, the black-female-to-black-male ratios at HBCUs are 1.75-to-1. Coppin State University is the only HBCU that has a ratio that exceeds 3-to-1 (it is 3.3-to-1, to be exact).


Not to mention...




Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?


Excellent observation. The proper promotion and marketing of Shuri (especially if Lupita Nyong'o is cast for the film) would draw in female readers, Afrakan female readers, more male readers and more Afrakan male readers. Keep her beautiful aesthetic, show off her fashion and style, keep her heterosexual and involved with a Wakandan male in a romantic, sexual, loving relationship. T'Challa too needs a romantic, sexual, loving relationship with Wakandan woman... or two. Reinvest in the true purpose of the Dora Milaje, queens of the realm and mothers of the nation.
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Offline Emperorjones

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I understand the concern. But again it's only the first issue and previews, it was said on the CBR forums and I'll say it here, Coates said he didn't want to just show the light side of things. Wakanda isn't immune from human corruption, they should definitely be above it to a certain extent as they are kinda the beacon of hope for human advancement. To be honest yes j don't want this to be a promo and prop up for Ayo and Aneka, not because of their sexual orientation, but simply because this is the Black Panther mythos and they are supporting characters and as such should take the back seat to T'Challa as he is the title character.

I know why Priest did what he did as well. He was ahead if the times and had to do what he had to do to get Panther popular. Yes I had issues with his story as well as Hudlin's but both of those writers have written the best BPs to date and will always be the OGs that set the tone for how T'Challa should be and what the movie will be depicting


Ezyo,

You are right that we've only had the first issue and this is just a promo. So I have no clue as to what the second issue will be like, or how the series will ultimately go. I've said before that the jury is out to me.

Before Ture laid out several things that could create drama and conflict. I think we need balance. There is nothing wrong with conflict. I want that, I want challenges, but I also want my hero to be able to figure out those challenges and win well enough if not always decisively. If he/she is knocked down, I want them to get back up. I don't see this kind of hand wringing when it comes to white male characters over how 'perfect' they are. Though to Coates's credit he did mention how he didn't like how perfect he saw Wolverine as being. Though I will say this, I would be more okay with deconstructing if Black Panther had the publishing history, the media presence of a Wolverine. I know he would weather that storm and keep it coming. His legacy would be more secure. But for a black character to be deconstructed all the time while he's struggling to get on, it might make him look weak and unattractive to new readers and gets tired for old readers, the diehards. Also I think the wounds are longer lasting with black characters because after the deconstruction or humiliation who knows when they will be back again.

But what I think we've got so far is some standard stuff about black men as misogynists and from the promo likely sexually deviant beasts. We've also gotten a dithering T'Challa, and this to me is in line with how black male heterosexual characters are depicted in today's media. They are eunuchs, unless married to non-black women and even then we might not see much sex, they are supporting characters (male 'black best friends'), they rarely are decisive, and if they kick ass, they do so in service to or in league with white people. They aren't defending themselves. Just recently on Arrow, they had Diggle imprison and torture his brother for Green Arrow,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
and to show how right that decision turned out to be, when Diggle comes to the brother's defense later, the brother turns out to be a traitor.
. And of course black men are still often depicted as clowns and buffoons.

You say that the sexual orientation of Ayo and Aneka plays no role in them getting a starring spot in the promo? Can you name me any other Black Panther supporting player that has gotten a similar spot light? S'Yan? Ramonda? W'Kabi? Flea? Hunter? Their sexual orientation is likely the reason they are getting this spot light. They are important characters in this run, and quite possibly the real main characters. And they might be gateway characters to attract new readers and positive media attention to Panther. But once again, if that becomes the reason what incentive will there be to actually build up the Panther? Then the series becomes about Ayo and Aneka, sort of like how I feel Arrow has become about Felicity or Olicity. Now of course things can change, but if the project is to be about pumping up Panther and helping introduce him ahead of Civil War and his own film, the first issue has stumbled out the gate.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 12:29:48 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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Ture,

Great charts. I'm so glad you posted it. You hear in the media about the rise in interracial marriages, but you never get the real picture. To me they drop that grenade and then blacks go at each other, when the reality is the majority of blacks are marrying other blacks. In the media though its almost a completely different picture.

I do disagree with you though about Wakanda being pictured as light. Certainly advanced, but at the same time I think its hard to get through all the miseducation for writers and creators to see a black society or country on that level and how to depict it. And that is even if they are well educated and sensitive to the plight of blacks and understand the damages of stereotyping, like I think Coates is.

That being said, I don't mind some political strife or introduction of real world issues. I don't want them to be stereotypical though. A recent promo I read for the latest Green Arrow comic has Green Arrow in 'war torn' Africa. It's amazing how often that phrase is attached to Africa. It's like the idea is already there before people even write the story. So their perceptions are already shaped going into it.

I don't disagree that a creative writer could find new challenges. I mean the internal strife thing has been done quite a bit with Panther. How about showing him rally the nation together to defeat threats or him reaching out to the rest of the continent and encountering problems there, if not in Wakanda? Like how Star Trek often depicts the Federation as damn near perfect, but there is always conflict and strife outside the Federation.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 12:34:41 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline A.Curry

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I picked up issue 1. My first BP related comic in a few years. I had to stop after Marvel decided to "roll back" some of the gains to the character's place in the Marvel U that Reggie established in his series. First the art in this issue was amazing. I think the new design of Wakanda and the new Tech is amazing. Black Panther used to have one of the most simple but bad ass costumes in comics. I think it would be great to go back to something like that. Coates vision for the Black Panther I am ok with overall. There were however some issues with the writing. The dialog between characters often felt disjointed except for the communication between the Lesbian Dora Milaj. On the politics of the issue. Um guys reading some of your comments it is almost like a catch 22 where some of your criticisms uphold some of the points made about sexism and the black man. Reggie was pretty political in his run. I don't think doing that again will work for Coates. That kind of is what is expected with his reparations article. I will make a subscription to the series to how it plays out.

I have to agree with this...it's particularly disturbing to read comments by two of the posters on here regarding approaching feminist, sexist, and homosexual issues in this comic.  Your comments largely underscores WHY Coates probably feels the need to address this as it also underscores the particular sexism and attitudes towards black people who are homosexual.  And why many black women in academia and the arts in particular are largely disappointed with black men due to black on black misogyny. 

It's LARGELY disturbing to see one poster "hope" that the two lesbian Dora Milaje are killed off early...simply because of the "ish" of them being gay.  Imagine how a lesbian comics fan might feel reading that.  You're pretty much telling her she shouldn't exist or belong in African fantasy or sci-if and at worst, she should die.  Hopefully your daughter won't turn out to be gay with such an attitude.

Coates while being fully outspoken on black issues has always been a liberally minded academic who is quite sensitive to other issues regarding other people as well and like it or not, there will probably be many black women comic fans straight and gay who will appreciate his efforts.  And I seriously doubt he'd kill them off because of that.

I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Everything you just said in this post even further promotes the very issues I stated before along with bluezulu's and actually is even further disturbing...not to mention it also underscores even further the very problems some see as some black men only caring about their own particular issues and not the issues outside of just racism that effects their very own brothers and sisters...even WITHIN thier own black communities.

it also may show you have a very limited understanding of cross sectional issues that effect different black people.

1. the fact that you take this "black people has to be for everyone else far too much" as a concern and that you feel that "black people have to put their concerns on the back-burner to mollify our allies" is showing that black people WHO ARE LGBT (they do exist in large numbers whther you like it or not) and black feminist or womanist issues are largely invisible to you and you see these concerns as a "white" thing.  This is an issue black people within the LGBT community AND many black women feel and discuss all the time and everything in your post supports it.

Homosexual and gender issues ARE a black issue because there ARE black LGBT people existing who feel excluded and not accepted and often ESPECIALLY within their own black communities.  Funny thing is THEY feel the same way you do...that their particular issues are put on the back burner in lieu of the greater "race" struggle or even seen as "not a black thing" or a "unnatural thing they picked up from white people"  and thus should not only be ignored but condemned.  And again everything in your post proves that.

For instance:  Coates has made his bones and spent most of his career talking about race issues and racism...Reggie Hudlin and Priest before him in his own way did the same with their runs...but Coates, after only 1 issue, focuses on a lesbian couple and gender issues and suddenly there is a "concern"...never mind that those issues affects a segment of black people as well that are often ignored or "put on the back burner" themselves...by their own people.

But of course you "have an issue with the "promotion" of homosexuality (because of course LGBT people seeing themselves in a black comic can only be "promotion" and not "inclusion") ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic.  WHY? Could it be that you only care about your own concerns and fantasies and inclusion in the world?  That as a straight black man you want to see upfront and foremost in a comic about a black afrofuturistic country only those things that affect YOU and not concerns that affect black people that are not black straight men for ONCE in this comic being in the forefront? Because its giving support to something other than some dudes fragile black male ego?

This is the very issues many black women and LGBT people have discussed...that the struggle always and mainly focuses on straight black men while women and especially black people who are LGBT should just be quiet, not be represented in any meaningful way, or always be secondary.

Thankfully Coates disagrees with you and has a wider view and sensitivity to issues that affects black people other than straight black males.

2. The fact you think Coates is writing this because "homosexuality is more acceptable and it endears him to more liberals" is laughable and sad at the same time.  Dude has spent his career writing about controversial race isssues and even made a case for reparations...which even some liberal white people dont agree with.  So now all of a sudden he's writing to appease liberals?  lol...  Thats whats laughable.  What's sad is that you actually NEED to believe this because you cant accept that a straight, married black man actually is writing this because he cares about and sees this as an issue that should be addressed.  And it IS an issue within the black community as well as outside of it.  Financially yes, its possible more LGBT people and even women might pick it up ecause they see themselves included in it in a intelligent and meaningful way.  Hopefully straight black dudes wont be scared off from it because of this.

Plus, its only the first issue.  We dont know yet if "racism and colonialism" wont be touched upon too along with the issues he's already presented.  but his first run was already touted to be involving an internal Wakandan prolem.

3. Your rant about black misogyny and actually bringing up misandry, which in many ways is a much smaller to nonexistent issue in a patriarchal world and in comics, where male characters far outweigh female ones and black male characters are far greater than the almost non-existent black female ones, smacks of a disingenous defensive argument.  its like white people bringing up their own oppression whenever someone talks about white supremacy.  Its pretty much a non-argument when looking at the facts of the world.

And why is it whenever negativity within the black community and the ills SOME black men do is discussed its an overall "attack on the black man?"  What are some of us being so fragile about that we shouldnt accept some judgement, especially from our own, about ourselves? Ive been a black man probably longer than you, and whenever these things are bought up, I dont feel its an overall attack on black men and definitely dont feel we are all "lazy and shiftless" and whatever else you said.  But yes, some black men are sexist and misogynistic and in more subtle ways they arent even aware of, totally dismissive and blind to issues outside of what affects them personally.  the fact that this is sometimes ought up and discussed, especially by other black people, isnt a "broad brush" over all black men.  Again, your post underscores this.  There are many examples of black men being loving and not lazy in the world and in media.  The current president and his wife is one of the best examples of a black man and a black love around...why do I see these examples and you dont?

Now, how many positive or intriguing examples do you see of black LGBT people?

I feel you on T'Challa so far not being the front and center character of this story, but that doesnt mean its not a good story nor one that will elevate the character...and the best stories dont always involve the central character "kicking ass" to satisfy our male egos.  He's attempting to, for better or worse, deal with redefining the world around the central character. Coates already said this story would focus on the politics and standing of Wakanda as a whole and T'challa as a monarch.  its only the 1st issue.




« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 01:13:03 pm by A.Curry »

Offline A.Curry

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Speak on it Ture,

Though I do take issue. I don't see the LGBT community as a whole disenfranchised. They do have the right to vote and they are wielding political power a whole lot more effectively than black people are these days. But I agree wholeheartedly about how you say that Coates is using the It group of the moment.

And you had some really good ideas that Coates could've taken with the series instead of this trendy, and faux controversial move. It's not controversial at all if almost every celebrity in Hollywood supports LGBT rights, the President supports LGBT rights, LGBT reality stars and characters are on television. Also more LGBT characters are in comics, with at least two heading series at DC, Batwoman and Midnighter. Also Catwoman was revealed to be bisexual. Heck, Empire, the most popular show on television, has a gay character as the main character, or at least the main hero character. So there is nothing revolutionary about having a lesbian couple in a comic book. And gender bending has become celebrated, such as Jaden Smith becoming the face of a women's clothing line. There were some griping about that around the margins, but nothing major. It's almost at a point where we don't wonder who is gay, but who isn't gay.

It's not bold at all, to be honest it feels like a sucker move. He won't take on racism (at least at first, according to him), despite having a little beef just this year over Bernie Sanders's lack of support for reparations, but yet he will go with an issue that has wide support among liberals. He isn't taking a hard road, he's just going with the flow.

again everything said here is "gay is a white problem and not a black one"

Every character you mentioned in your post is white...the Empire guy...ooohhh you can point out one gay black character among the many on TV and in movies.  And even he's getting a lot of backlash...by other black people.  He's not even the central character on Empire and the issues he's suffering from his own father and the community he lives in in the show is pretty much an enactment of the issues the director Lee Daniels went through himself...not because he was black but because he was gay.

Jaden Smith's gender bending was met with a HUGE amount of bile and ugly personal attacks by black people on various social sites...not only of himself but of his parents as well.

Whats not being got is while the "LGBT agenda" is a popular movement with white liberals, what Ta-Nehisi Coates is doing by bringing it in a black hero's comic is dealing with the issues and non-inclusion of black LGBT people within the black community itself.  The very community they should feel welcome in and included but often are either ignored or condemned.

Again, the fact your opinion is that they should have a secondary or non-existent focus in the Black Panther's comic underscores this.

And disenfranchisement can happen in many ways...just because one can vote and marry doesnt mean they are accepterd or included by many as a whole or on a social level.  Republicans could say the same thing about blacks...how are you disenfranchised?  You can vote, marry, go where you want, do whatever.  But that doesnt mean you dont face social injustices.  And LGBT black people face that not only from white but their own.

Offline A.Curry

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This Better Not Be Wakanda!



Coates and/or Stelfreeze said they were going to give us a Wakanda that we would want to live in and I'll go so far as to say this kind imagery makes their comment all the more incredulous. Obvious attempt at invoking some Boko Haram ish.



Concerning the lesbian couple, Coates isn't addressing LGBT concerns, he's touting his comic book by exploiting the it victim group of the moment. McGregor paralleled this when he bought crack into Wakanda as did Gillis with the Supremacist. The LGBT community isn't the only disenfranchised group.

Far be it for one to tell a story of the Black Panther hunting and capturing the many police officers that killed innocent Afrakan youths. Why not demonstrate the superiority of a socialized medical care where all citizens receive such quality healthcare that the Wakandan life expectancy is more than double that of the world's average.

Coates could have reversed Maberry's nonsense of making the Dora Milaje into an army and have them be the two potential wives of T'Challa. After a failed marriage with an outsider the Black Panther looks inward. It is here that Coates could have explored the internal workings of polygamy and the family dynamic.

Coates could have taken on the social ills of child soldiers and highlighted that although Wakandan children are trained in the craft of war and the martial sciences they are not utilized in the same manner. He could have centered the story on two Wakandan youth trying to debrief child soldiers from a neighboring nation.

There are many social issues and their victims that can be addressed. Where are the ones that deal with the physically handicapped and mentally challenged. As it stands at the moment, Coates' Damisa-Sarki flirts with an irrelevancy that denies both T'challa and Wakanda.

Of course this is only the first issue and some previews but in the immortal words of Kieth Sweat "There's a good and a bad way to love somebody." Show the love for the Damisa-Sarki.





Though I agree with some of your post, you have no idea what Coates is doing or why he is doing it.  The idea that he's just "touting the victim group of the moment" not only is a cynical insult to the trials and struggles of LGBT people, black, white, and other, themselves as basically implying their movement is "trendy", but its an insult to the writer himself as it implies he's only doing this to be trendy himself and not because its an issue he actually could care about.

And for black people or the black community, the LGBT group may not be the only disenfranchised group, but it is one that in many cases goes largely ignored or are condemned.

Police Officers killing African youths?  HUGE topic supported by most black people and many liberal whites...the "black lives matter" movement was started actually by two LGBT women.  Who made secondary their own issues as gay black women to help ring attention to the overall cause of police brutality against black people.

Yet they cant see themselves depicted in a Black Panther comic?

And stories dealing with the physically handicapped and mentally challenged would be a great thing to see, but lets not pretend thats a controversial topic or one that needs to be shown to gain acceptance by others...no one or hardly anybody has any negative or hateful feeling s towards the physically or mentally challenged and they may be ignored due to convenience which is not a good thing, but are not condemned or attacked for who they are in the larger way LGBT are.

The child soldiers thing would be excellent to see.  But again, why not tout for this being seen while NOT condemning whats being shown now?  Is it because the LGBT thing is a far more uncomfortable thing to see in a "black" comic than dealing with child soldiers?  Because both exist and both are issues with black people.

Offline A.Curry

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I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Post of the week!!!
Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.

Thanks Brother Ture,

I've just started to think more about black misandry recently. I mean black misogyny is brought up quite a bit especially when it comes to hip hop, and with mainstream gangsta rap I don't disagree that it is misogynist. But it is also misandrist. It dehumanizes both males and females, but the misandry is not as noticeable because I don't think the concept is one that a lot of people know about or perhaps even believe, and it's not something that is really talked about. Plus its male rappers primarily who are the ones who are spouting misogynist and misandrist lyrics and promoting those negative images. I also believe that mainstream rap is anti-black as well. But once again the color of a majority of rappers obfuscates seeing how anti-black mainstream rap, like the gender of many rappers hides the misandry.

We have come to accept as truisms some very negative things about black men. We nod our heads and laugh at them when we hear the litanies. But there are some black men who speak up or encourage and chastise black men to do better in terms of their treatment of women, but there aren't really any prominent black females or black males for that matter who speak out about misandry. Now I don't necessarily blame black women for misandry, they are the front line soldiers, like many men are for misogyny. I think we've both drunk from a poisoned chalice and are taking out our pain on each other. And that pain is deep, its immediate, and its stoked by external forces as well, so its hard to look beyond the pain and see the bigger picture, to understand context. Its far easier to lash out at the people closest to you or to react to them, rejecting them because either one of them did it or looks like the people who did hurt you.

And while hip hop and other media have created a sexist portrait of black women, they have also created a misandrist one for black men. As I alluded to before, the idea of black men being worthless is accepted, its a joke we all laugh at now because we know it's 'true'.

Hip Hop has largely objectified women and made popular the terms "bitches" and "hoes"...we just recently celebrated a biopic about a rap group who not only largely objectified women and who were misogynistic, but the leader (Dr. Dre) is a known woman abuser who beat several women severely and beat down and ruined the the career and future prospects of another woman simply because she wrote a piece that he found less than flattering.

The genre shows most of the black men in it as heroes who are "thugs" and "playas", an image many of us not only accepted is seen as cool.  Where is the "misandry"?

Is there a male equivalent for "bitch" and "Hoe"?  No "dog" doesnt count and has nowhere near the same power.

This point of view is a popular tactic called re-focusing...and its one people use when they are uncomfortable dealing with judgmental points against their own group.

like when white people re focus discussions about racism on reverse racism.

Offline Emperorjones

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Everything you just said in this post even further promotes the very issues I stated before along with bluezulu's and actually is even further disturbing...not to mention it also underscores even further the very problems some see as some black men only caring about their own particular issues and not the issues outside of just racism that effects their very own brothers and sisters...even WITHIN thier own black communities.

it also may show you have a very limited understanding of cross sectional issues that effect different black people.

1. the fact that you take this "black people has to be for everyone else far too much" as a concern and that you feel that "black people have to put their concerns on the back-burner to mollify our allies" is showing that black people WHO ARE LGBT (they do exist in large numbers whther you like it or not) and black feminist or womanist issues are largely invisible to you and you see these concerns as a "white" thing.  This is an issue black people within the LGBT community AND many black women feel and discuss all the time and everything in your post supports it.

First of all I never said my concern about black people being for everyone else was LGBT specific. This happens in a variety of ways, with black people taking up causes and not getting reciprocal support. What I do feel throughout this post that you are making assumptions about me and putting words in my mouth even though I have clearly tried to write out my thoughts, but that's your right to do so.

Homosexual and gender issues ARE a black issue because there ARE black LGBT people existing who feel excluded and not accepted and often ESPECIALLY within their own black communities.  Funny thing is THEY feel the same way you do...that their particular issues are put on the back burner in lieu of the greater "race" struggle or even seen as "not a black thing" or a "unnatural thing they picked up from white people"  and thus should not only be ignored but condemned.  And again everything in your post proves that.

You keep linking LGBT and gender issues like they are one and the same and they are not, or not always. Fair enough that homosexual and gender issues are black issues, but at the same time is a cop stopping and frisking you because you are gay or because you are black?

For instance:  Coates has made his bones and spent most of his career talking about race issues and racism...Reggie Hudlin and Priest before him in his own way did the same with their runs...but Coates, after only 1 issue, focuses on a lesbian couple and gender issues and suddenly there is a "concern"...never mind that those issues affects a segment of black people as well that are often ignored or "put on the back burner" themselves...by their own people.

Are LGBT issues really being put on the back burner by blacks? The most important social movement for black folks in decades is very supportive of LGBT issues, and there are countless black thought pieces in support of LGBT rights, President Obama is a supporter of LGBT issues and has been more vocal about them than he has regarding issues that affect blacks (straight or gay). Even Farrakhan defended the LGBT community at the latest Million Man March. Though for some of this mainstream support, there is a racial component here where the face of LGBT is often white so it is more acceptable to support their cause in the mainstream. I've already laid out why I am concerned about Ayo and Aneka and what it might portend going forward so I'm not going to repeat it.

But of course you "have an issue with the "promotion" of homosexuality (because of course LGBT people seeing themselves in a black comic can only be "promotion" and not "inclusion") ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic.  WHY? Could it be that you only care about your own concerns and fantasies and inclusion in the world?  That as a straight black man you want to see upfront and foremost in a comic about a black afrofuturistic country only those things that affect YOU and not concerns that affect black people that are not black straight men for ONCE in this comic being in the forefront? Because its giving support to something other than some dudes fragile black male ego?

Of course I care about my own inclusion and 'fantasies', likewise you do too, or you wouldn't be so huffy about my comments. Why wouldn't a comic book about a African kingdom, one of the few unconquered by colonialism, not talk about issues affecting or afflicting the continent? Why would they talk about homosexuality, which is a very hot topic right now, instead of long running problems, historical problems, that have often gotten short shrift in the media? I once read that Black Panther/T'Challa was inspired by the new wave of African freedom fighters and movements of the 50s and 60s, but you think that history and the continuing issues that are part of that history should be ignored or take a backseat to see a same sex couple? I very much do see promotion of homosexuality because the media is talking about it, displaying, celebrating it, and now it is a situation where it must be embraced, must be celebrated, or you are a homophobe or transphobic. I just saw that the American Idol runner up is taking hit for saying she doesn't agree with that lifestyle. Now she also said she has gay friends and is tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle, but tolerance is no longer enough.

All that being,  I'm not saying that any issues should be excluded from this Panther run or in other media, though I am concerned about what gets priority, and why. I think homosexuality is more acceptable so its getting the priority in this Panther run, so far.

I've seen the attack on the 'fragile' straight male ego before. But is there such a thing as a fragile female or rather feminist ego or homosexual male/female ego? Are the concerns of homosexuals more legitimate than straight people? Are homosexuals only allowed to express displeasure? And it not be seen as an issue of fragility?

The idea that you think that the issues of straight black men are at the forefront is troubling. There have been long fights about the lack of representation, of diversity in front of and behind the cameras in Hollywood. Where is this great representation for straight black males?Where are there voices being heard so clearly? There is an issue of representation where black voices are concerned period. This belief that straight black males have it so good while everyone else suffers is erroneous. Fair enough you might see more straight black males in media, but also you see more straight black males demonized in media.


This is the very issues many black women and LGBT people have discussed...that the struggle always and mainly focuses on straight black men while women and especially black people who are LGBT should just be quiet, not be represented in any meaningful way, or always be secondary.

I've never once said anyone should be quiet. I think there is a hostility towards straight black males from feminists that want to make all black men out to be Mister from The Color Purple. I have no problem at all with black women or LGBT people having a voice, and they do have voices. The struggle doesn't focus solely on black men, but black men do take a lot of punishment and they do need help. The idea that you should be condemning that help instead of acknowledging the problems is cause for concern. It doesn't have to be either/or, zero sum game. But I do feel that's how some feminists play it.

Thankfully Coates disagrees with you and has a wider view and sensitivity to issues that affects black people other than straight black males.

I'm just one dude, with my opinion. Don't generalize all black males because of me. And Coates is entitled to his view, I'm still supporting his work...for now, but in the future that remains to be seen.

2. The fact you think Coates is writing this because "homosexuality is more acceptable and it endears him to more liberals" is laughable and sad at the same time.  Dude has spent his career writing about controversial race isssues and even made a case for reparations...which even some liberal white people dont agree with.  So now all of a sudden he's writing to appease liberals?  lol...  Thats whats laughable.  What's sad is that you actually NEED to believe this because you cant accept that a straight, married black man actually is writing this because he cares about and sees this as an issue that should be addressed.  And it IS an issue within the black community as well as outside of it.  Financially yes, its possible more LGBT people and even women might pick it up ecause they see themselves included in it in a intelligent and meaningful way.  Hopefully straight black dudes wont be scared off from it because of this.

Coates is also writing at The Atlantic. He's a pet black intellectual. That doesn't mean I don't agree with many of his articles. I have liked his writing and that made me interested when I heard he got this gig. But I also understand that he is working for a white magazine and promotion of homosexuality won't piss them off. It will endear him to them. Are there some white liberals who disagree with him? Sure, but what does that mean? It doesn't mean there aren't others who agree with him, or agree with him enough, to continue paying him to write. And his arguments for reparations don't prevent him from supporting Senator Sanders after chastising him for not supporting them. Coates can express some displeasure but still be counted on to fold right back into a progressive tent. He's an eloquent writer, an insightful person, but one that isn't going to turn over any tables. Which I get that, The Atlantic or Marvel wouldn't hire him if he was a barn burner, but I'm not going to pretend he's this bold, radical thinker either. He's a racial interpreter for white people.

Plus, its only the first issue.  We dont know yet if "racism and colonialism" wont be touched upon too along with the issues he's already presented.  but his first run was already touted to be involving an internal Wakandan prolem.

You are right on that it is the first issue. And I've said that, more than once, that Coates said he was delaying discussing those topics. Which I do find odd since so many issues connected to Africa revolve around them. Now I am skeptical that he will actually get to them or if he does he will address them in a surface, non-controversial way like many others have also done when depicting Africa.

3. Your rant about black misogyny and actually bringing up misandry, which in many ways is a much smaller to nonexistent issue in a patriarchal world and in comics, where male characters far outweigh female ones and black male characters are far greater than the almost non-existent black female ones, smacks of a disingenous defensive argument.  its like white people bringing up their own oppression whenever someone talks about white supremacy.  Its pretty much a non-argument when looking at the facts of the world.

Rant? Was I writing in ALL CAPS? No, I saying something you dislike so you want to delegitimize it by making it seem like I'm frothing at the mouth. When I think about misandry, yes, I agree to some extent what you are saying here, regarding how powerful misandry might be in comparison to misogyny in the overall country.  Though I do think we need to decouple the white experience from the black experience. While there are more black male characters in mainstream comics, or at least prominent black male characters, it's not like its black men who are generally writing these characters. They are not true representations of black people, male or female. They are often white peoples ideas of what black people are. That being said, the most well known black character in comics for a long time was Storm. She was so well known that some fans hated that she married Panther. I read that even John Byrne felt that Storm was too good for Panther. Now in other black popular media, there is misandry. The black man ain't sh*t basically has been touted in movies for a long time now and to some extent in music.

The general power differences between white males and white females, I don't know if that is exactly replicated in the black community. And if it has been, I don't know if that is no longer the case with black women getting more degrees and having relatively better employment. So the power differentials might be different.


And why is it whenever negativity within the black community and the ills SOME black men do is discussed its an overall "attack on the black man?"  What are some of us being so fragile about that we shouldnt accept some judgement, especially from our own, about ourselves? Ive been a black man probably longer than you, and whenever these things are bought up, I dont feel its an overall attack on black men and definitely dont feel we are all "lazy and shiftless" and whatever else you said.  But yes, some black men are sexist and misogynistic and in more subtle ways they arent even aware of, totally dismissive and blind to issues outside of what affects them personally.  the fact that this is sometimes ought up and discussed, especially by other black people, isnt a "broad brush" over all black men.  Again, your post underscores this.  There are many examples of black men being loving and not lazy in the world and in media.  The current president and his wife is one of the best examples of a black man and a black love around...why do I see these examples and you dont?

Look at some of your statements in regards to me. It went away from just going after me, Emperorjones, to swiping at all black men, or rather straight black men. So I think its very easy to generalize. So is all the negativity in the black community solely coming from straight black males? Its not an issue of 'accepting' judgment, its who the judgment is coming from and for what purpose. And also the people who are judging how would they feel if the mirror is turned back on them? It seems to me you are going into this assuming that straight black men are a problem, perhaps the problem, so we need that tough love, we need the finger wagging, and so on and so on. And black men get that, from all corners, including from President Obama. I think some feminists and perhaps some others have allowed the our so-called allies, the media, and academia to poison us against each other, and that its okay to bash straight black men. For example I saw an Ebony article going after Michael B. Jordan for referring to black women as 'females'. Are you kidding me? That doesn't mean that black women aren't getting bashed or black LGBT people aren't getting bashed either, but why is it an outrage when its females and gay folks but not when its straight black males?

One of the few nice things I do have to say about President Obama is that his marriage is a great optic to counter some of the negativity regarding heterosexual intraracial relationships, but they are still too far and in between.

Now, how many positive or intriguing examples do you see of black LGBT people?

Off the top of my head, the lead character (Jamal?) on Empire. Curtis Holt on Arrow. Morris Chestnut's sister on Rosewood. Lafayette and Tara on True Blood. I don't watch much a wide variety of shows these days, but I can assume there are more or soon will be.

I feel you on T'Challa so far not being the front and center character of this story, but that doesnt mean its not a good story nor one that will elevate the character...and the best stories dont always involve the central character "kicking ass" to satisfy our male egos.  He's attempting to, for better or worse, deal with redefining the world around the central character. Coates already said this story would focus on the politics and standing of Wakanda as a whole and T'challa as a monarch.  its only the 1st issue.
[/quote]

I don't know if it will be a good story. I know Coates is a good writer. I'm really feeling the art. I don't think kicking ass is purely a male thing. Look at how feminists celebrated Rey in The Force Awakens. Was her kicking ass purely a male thing. And we've seen a rise of (white) female action stars over the years in Resident Evil, Underworld, and The Hunger Games. Now we have The Force Awakens and soon to have Rogue One. I think many groups want to see someone like them kick ass, irrespective of gender.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 03:26:38 am by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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Speak on it Ture,

Though I do take issue. I don't see the LGBT community as a whole disenfranchised. They do have the right to vote and they are wielding political power a whole lot more effectively than black people are these days. But I agree wholeheartedly about how you say that Coates is using the It group of the moment.

And you had some really good ideas that Coates could've taken with the series instead of this trendy, and faux controversial move. It's not controversial at all if almost every celebrity in Hollywood supports LGBT rights, the President supports LGBT rights, LGBT reality stars and characters are on television. Also more LGBT characters are in comics, with at least two heading series at DC, Batwoman and Midnighter. Also Catwoman was revealed to be bisexual. Heck, Empire, the most popular show on television, has a gay character as the main character, or at least the main hero character. So there is nothing revolutionary about having a lesbian couple in a comic book. And gender bending has become celebrated, such as Jaden Smith becoming the face of a women's clothing line. There were some griping about that around the margins, but nothing major. It's almost at a point where we don't wonder who is gay, but who isn't gay.

It's not bold at all, to be honest it feels like a sucker move. He won't take on racism (at least at first, according to him), despite having a little beef just this year over Bernie Sanders's lack of support for reparations, but yet he will go with an issue that has wide support among liberals. He isn't taking a hard road, he's just going with the flow.

again everything said here is "gay is a white problem and not a black one"

Every character you mentioned in your post is white...the Empire guy...ooohhh you can point out one gay black character among the many on TV and in movies.  And even he's getting a lot of backlash...by other black people.  He's not even the central character on Empire and the issues he's suffering from his own father and the community he lives in in the show is pretty much an enactment of the issues the director Lee Daniels went through himself...not because he was black but because he was gay.

Jaden Smith's gender bending was met with a HUGE amount of bile and ugly personal attacks by black people on various social sites...not only of himself but of his parents as well.

Whats not being got is while the "LGBT agenda" is a popular movement with white liberals, what Ta-Nehisi Coates is doing by bringing it in a black hero's comic is dealing with the issues and non-inclusion of black LGBT people within the black community itself.  The very community they should feel welcome in and included but often are either ignored or condemned.

Again, the fact your opinion is that they should have a secondary or non-existent focus in the Black Panther's comic underscores this.

And disenfranchisement can happen in many ways...just because one can vote and marry doesnt mean they are accepterd or included by many as a whole or on a social level.  Republicans could say the same thing about blacks...how are you disenfranchised?  You can vote, marry, go where you want, do whatever.  But that doesnt mean you dont face social injustices.  And LGBT black people face that not only from white but their own.

I don't buy that the black community is so doctrinaire homophobic. Even Michael Sam has recently said that he experienced more racism in the white gay community than hostility in the black community. I think the rampant black homophobia thing is overblown. What major black thought leader today is anti-gay? Even Charles Barkley, who threw shade on Mike Brown, has come out to speak against the LGBT legislation in North Carolina.

You say Empire is getting backlash and it is, but I bet you that the rock solid support that show is getting is from black people and it is praised and celebrated throughout black media, in addition to white media as well. So if blacks were so homophobic why are they supporting the hell out of Empire?


Offline Emperorjones

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I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Post of the week!!!
Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.

Thanks Brother Ture,

I've just started to think more about black misandry recently. I mean black misogyny is brought up quite a bit especially when it comes to hip hop, and with mainstream gangsta rap I don't disagree that it is misogynist. But it is also misandrist. It dehumanizes both males and females, but the misandry is not as noticeable because I don't think the concept is one that a lot of people know about or perhaps even believe, and it's not something that is really talked about. Plus its male rappers primarily who are the ones who are spouting misogynist and misandrist lyrics and promoting those negative images. I also believe that mainstream rap is anti-black as well. But once again the color of a majority of rappers obfuscates seeing how anti-black mainstream rap, like the gender of many rappers hides the misandry.

We have come to accept as truisms some very negative things about black men. We nod our heads and laugh at them when we hear the litanies. But there are some black men who speak up or encourage and chastise black men to do better in terms of their treatment of women, but there aren't really any prominent black females or black males for that matter who speak out about misandry. Now I don't necessarily blame black women for misandry, they are the front line soldiers, like many men are for misogyny. I think we've both drunk from a poisoned chalice and are taking out our pain on each other. And that pain is deep, its immediate, and its stoked by external forces as well, so its hard to look beyond the pain and see the bigger picture, to understand context. Its far easier to lash out at the people closest to you or to react to them, rejecting them because either one of them did it or looks like the people who did hurt you.

And while hip hop and other media have created a sexist portrait of black women, they have also created a misandrist one for black men. As I alluded to before, the idea of black men being worthless is accepted, its a joke we all laugh at now because we know it's 'true'.

Hip Hop has largely objectified women and made popular the terms "bitches" and "hoes"...we just recently celebrated a biopic about a rap group who not only largely objectified women and who were misogynistic, but the leader (Dr. Dre) is a known woman abuser who beat several women severely and beat down and ruined the the career and future prospects of another woman simply because she wrote a piece that he found less than flattering.

The genre shows most of the black men in it as heroes who are "thugs" and "playas", an image many of us not only accepted is seen as cool.  Where is the "misandry"?

Is there a male equivalent for "bitch" and "Hoe"?  No "dog" doesnt count and has nowhere near the same power.

This point of view is a popular tactic called re-focusing...and its one people use when they are uncomfortable dealing with judgmental points against their own group.

like when white people re focus discussions about racism on reverse racism.

You are right that hip hop has objectified women. But you have also pointed out that whereas women are called bitches and hoes, men are called thugs and niggas. Men are shown to be subhuman, perhaps in a different way than women but still dehumanized. The idea that you can see one and not see the other, I cram to understand.

I think it gets confusing because men are the main rappers, they seem powerful in these videos or songs, but all they are doing is confirming coon and brute stereotypes, its just wrapped in bling.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 02:28:15 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline A.Curry

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    I understand what your saying and truth be told. I don't want this to be a story were Ayo and Aneka are being propped up at the cost of T'Challa and Wakandan males being thrown under the bus. I think it's good to have the them doing things. But now the stories from now on should be 75% focus on T'Challa and 25% on the DM, the villains and whatever else. The first issue did a good job setting the tone. And in Priest's run it made sense for T'Challa to feel like a guest because it was to add to the mysterious feeling of no one, not ever the readers knowing what T'Challa is thinking, and readers and villains alike were surprised when he started closing trap door's. In this case we see T'Challas inner thought's and so we need to have a bigger focus, and I think we will. I don't think Ayo and Aneka are gonna become the stars of this story because it's a Black Panther story, not Wakanda or Dora Milaje. But it's still only the first issue so we will find out by issue 4 what kinda story it Is

    I'm not as optimistic as you are. While reading your post the Blade television series from Spike came to mind. It was ostensibly a Blade series, that was supposed to be about Blade, I mean he was in every episode (if I recall), right? However the series was really about a brand new, and white character, Krista Starr.  All the personal stakes were for her. Avenging a lost brother, becoming a vampire, her romance with her brother's vamp killer. Blade became a co-star (at best), but really a supporting character in the series that bore his name. Blade was the wrapper, the branding for story about Krista.

    This could very well be the case with T'Challa. I don't mind a bigger focus on the Dora Milaje as a whole, but I don't think we need a certain percentage of time given to them. I think it should be organic. And though I am concerned about how homosexuality has to be in everything now like its an edict from on high, it's not a deal breaker to me because I watch shows with homosexual characters, I've read comics with homosexual characters. So having a lesbian couple in Black Panther, among the Dora Milaje, does make sense to me like one of the above posts said. I was reading recently that Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman: Earth One book will have Wonder Woman in a lesbian relationship and possibly an interracial relationship, and those two things alone will not stop me from purchasing that book.

    But as I said before, and let me restate, I wish that more heterosexual, intraracial and positive, healthy romantic and sexual black relationships were portrayed in the media. Portraying otherwise seems to me to be saying that black men and black women can't get along, that black heterosexual love is impossible, that it encourages other kinds of relationships. Basically black men and women can't work and live together in peace and harmony, that we can't build together. So that kind of thinking weakens us as a whole.

    I also don't assume that we will get an active T'Challa in this series. Maberry kept promising big things for Storm and T'Challa in DoomWar and it never materialized. So I don't assume, I'll just see what happens.



    Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?

    well...

    I must say...You really seem to have problems with this lesbian couple which is telling...especially since this point intentionally or unintentionally missed out on not only whats been shown in the comic, but what I said.

    I said women AND LGBT people might be drawn more to the comic and/or appreciate his efforts...so yes two strong female and lesbian characters might do this.  Along with the fact that other women in the book, such as Ramonda and the antagonist, seem to be and will continue to be central and strong characters as well.  This could be a draw for straight AND LGBT women.

    Shuri is not, I believe, a gay black woman.  So where would a gay black woman see herself included with her?

    Shuri I will admit also was not promoted well and also was a character, a younger sister, who took up the main MALE character's mantle.  Some women would not see her as her own character but just continuing the legacy of a male character who would always be seen as THE main black panther.

    Not to mention Shuri as of this date has always been written by men and arguably never dealt with women's issues as a social gender.  Simply putting a woman in a costume and making her kick ass just like most male heroes isnt really addressing her or writing her as a woman or even a black woman that will focus on issues specific to black women.[/list]