NEW BLACK PANTHER COMIC BOOK - Ridley's Believe it or Not!

[A.Curry]

I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Post of the week!!!
Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.

Thanks Brother Ture,

I've just started to think more about black misandry recently. I mean black misogyny is brought up quite a bit especially when it comes to hip hop, and with mainstream gangsta rap I don't disagree that it is misogynist. But it is also misandrist. It dehumanizes both males and females, but the misandry is not as noticeable because I don't think the concept is one that a lot of people know about or perhaps even believe, and it's not something that is really talked about. Plus its male rappers primarily who are the ones who are spouting misogynist and misandrist lyrics and promoting those negative images. I also believe that mainstream rap is anti-black as well. But once again the color of a majority of rappers obfuscates seeing how anti-black mainstream rap, like the gender of many rappers hides the misandry.

We have come to accept as truisms some very negative things about black men. We nod our heads and laugh at them when we hear the litanies. But there are some black men who speak up or encourage and chastise black men to do better in terms of their treatment of women, but there aren't really any prominent black females or black males for that matter who speak out about misandry. Now I don't necessarily blame black women for misandry, they are the front line soldiers, like many men are for misogyny. I think we've both drunk from a poisoned chalice and are taking out our pain on each other. And that pain is deep, its immediate, and its stoked by external forces as well, so its hard to look beyond the pain and see the bigger picture, to understand context. Its far easier to lash out at the people closest to you or to react to them, rejecting them because either one of them did it or looks like the people who did hurt you.

And while hip hop and other media have created a sexist portrait of black women, they have also created a misandrist one for black men. As I alluded to before, the idea of black men being worthless is accepted, its a joke we all laugh at now because we know it's 'true'.

Hip Hop has largely objectified women and made popular the terms "bitches" and "hoes"...we just recently celebrated a biopic about a rap group who not only largely objectified women and who were misogynistic, but the leader (Dr. Dre) is a known woman abuser who beat several women severely and beat down and ruined the the career and future prospects of another woman simply because she wrote a piece that he found less than flattering.

The genre shows most of the black men in it as heroes who are "thugs" and "playas", an image many of us not only accepted is seen as cool.  Where is the "misandry"?

Is there a male equivalent for "bitch" and "Hoe"?  No "dog" doesnt count and has nowhere near the same power.

This point of view is a popular tactic called re-focusing...and its one people use when they are uncomfortable dealing with judgmental points against their own group.

like when white people re focus discussions about racism on reverse racism.

You are right that hip hop has objectified women. But you have also pointed out that whereas women are called bitches and hoes, men are called thugs and niggas. Men are shown to be subhuman, perhaps in a different way than women but still dehumanized. The idea that you can see one and not see the other, I cram to understand.

I think it gets confusing because men are the main rappers, they seem powerful in these videos or songs, but all they are doing is confirming coon and brute stereotypes, its just wrapped in bling.

You missed the part where I said black men being called "thugs and playas" and even "niggas" are embraced as positive things in hip hop and even largely in black american culture.  THEY called themselves this.  Its seen as something cool and embraced by rappers who are seen as heroes like Tupac, who popularized "Thug Life" and called himself a thug.  Black men call THEMSELVES "nigga" all the time.

so no, "bitches and hoes" is not the same thing.

[Emperorjones]

I understand what your saying and truth be told. I don't want this to be a story were Ayo and Aneka are being propped up at the cost of T'Challa and Wakandan males being thrown under the bus. I think it's good to have the them doing things. But now the stories from now on should be 75% focus on T'Challa and 25% on the DM, the villains and whatever else. The first issue did a good job setting the tone. And in Priest's run it made sense for T'Challa to feel like a guest because it was to add to the mysterious feeling of no one, not ever the readers knowing what T'Challa is thinking, and readers and villains alike were surprised when he started closing trap door's. In this case we see T'Challas inner thought's and so we need to have a bigger focus, and I think we will. I don't think Ayo and Aneka are gonna become the stars of this story because it's a Black Panther story, not Wakanda or Dora Milaje. But it's still only the first issue so we will find out by issue 4 what kinda story it Is

I'm not as optimistic as you are. While reading your post the Blade television series from Spike came to mind. It was ostensibly a Blade series, that was supposed to be about Blade, I mean he was in every episode (if I recall), right? However the series was really about a brand new, and white character, Krista Starr.  All the personal stakes were for her. Avenging a lost brother, becoming a vampire, her romance with her brother's vamp killer. Blade became a co-star (at best), but really a supporting character in the series that bore his name. Blade was the wrapper, the branding for story about Krista.

This could very well be the case with T'Challa. I don't mind a bigger focus on the Dora Milaje as a whole, but I don't think we need a certain percentage of time given to them. I think it should be organic. And though I am concerned about how homosexuality has to be in everything now like its an edict from on high, it's not a deal breaker to me because I watch shows with homosexual characters, I've read comics with homosexual characters. So having a lesbian couple in Black Panther, among the Dora Milaje, does make sense to me like one of the above posts said. I was reading recently that Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman: Earth One book will have Wonder Woman in a lesbian relationship and possibly an interracial relationship, and those two things alone will not stop me from purchasing that book.

But as I said before, and let me restate, I wish that more heterosexual, intraracial and positive, healthy romantic and sexual black relationships were portrayed in the media. Portraying otherwise seems to me to be saying that black men and black women can't get along, that black heterosexual love is impossible, that it encourages other kinds of relationships. Basically black men and women can't work and live together in peace and harmony, that we can't build together. So that kind of thinking weakens us as a whole.

I also don't assume that we will get an active T'Challa in this series. Maberry kept promising big things for Storm and T'Challa in DoomWar and it never materialized. So I don't assume, I'll just see what happens.

Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?

well...

I must say...You really seem to have problems with this lesbian couple which is telling...especially since this point intentionally or unintentionally missed out on not only whats been shown in the comic, but what I said.

I said women AND LGBT people might be drawn more to the comic and/or appreciate his efforts...so yes two strong female and lesbian characters might do this.  Along with the fact that other women in the book, such as Ramonda and the antagonist, seem to be and will continue to be central and strong characters as well.  This could be a draw for straight AND LGBT women.

Shuri is not, I believe, a gay black woman.  So where would a gay black woman see herself included with her?

Shuri I will admit also was not promoted well and also was a character, a younger sister, who took up the main MALE character's mantle.  Some women would not see her as her own character but just continuing the legacy of a male character who would always be seen as THE main black panther.

Not to mention Shuri as of this date has always been written by men and arguably never dealt with women's issues as a social gender.  Simply putting a woman in a costume and making her kick ass just like most male heroes isnt really addressing her or writing her as a woman or even a black woman that will focus on issues specific to black women.[/list]

Thanks for letting me know why some people might have issues with Shuri and not see her as the MAIN Black Panther (though I could see that rationale if it came from a straight black male being considered sexist and misogynist). However, that leads to another question, would some of these supporters have rallied to Shuri if she had been gay? Does she have to be black and gay to get that support? To me you are conflating LGBT and women's issues together. While there is doubtless overlap, as there are with LGBT and the "dreaded" straight black male issues, there are also differences.

A larger question, does the gay identity supersede the black identity for some gay black people?

[Emperorjones]

I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Post of the week!!!
Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.

Thanks Brother Ture,

I've just started to think more about black misandry recently. I mean black misogyny is brought up quite a bit especially when it comes to hip hop, and with mainstream gangsta rap I don't disagree that it is misogynist. But it is also misandrist. It dehumanizes both males and females, but the misandry is not as noticeable because I don't think the concept is one that a lot of people know about or perhaps even believe, and it's not something that is really talked about. Plus its male rappers primarily who are the ones who are spouting misogynist and misandrist lyrics and promoting those negative images. I also believe that mainstream rap is anti-black as well. But once again the color of a majority of rappers obfuscates seeing how anti-black mainstream rap, like the gender of many rappers hides the misandry.

We have come to accept as truisms some very negative things about black men. We nod our heads and laugh at them when we hear the litanies. But there are some black men who speak up or encourage and chastise black men to do better in terms of their treatment of women, but there aren't really any prominent black females or black males for that matter who speak out about misandry. Now I don't necessarily blame black women for misandry, they are the front line soldiers, like many men are for misogyny. I think we've both drunk from a poisoned chalice and are taking out our pain on each other. And that pain is deep, its immediate, and its stoked by external forces as well, so its hard to look beyond the pain and see the bigger picture, to understand context. Its far easier to lash out at the people closest to you or to react to them, rejecting them because either one of them did it or looks like the people who did hurt you.

And while hip hop and other media have created a sexist portrait of black women, they have also created a misandrist one for black men. As I alluded to before, the idea of black men being worthless is accepted, its a joke we all laugh at now because we know it's 'true'.

Hip Hop has largely objectified women and made popular the terms "bitches" and "hoes"...we just recently celebrated a biopic about a rap group who not only largely objectified women and who were misogynistic, but the leader (Dr. Dre) is a known woman abuser who beat several women severely and beat down and ruined the the career and future prospects of another woman simply because she wrote a piece that he found less than flattering.

The genre shows most of the black men in it as heroes who are "thugs" and "playas", an image many of us not only accepted is seen as cool.  Where is the "misandry"?

Is there a male equivalent for "bitch" and "Hoe"?  No "dog" doesnt count and has nowhere near the same power.

This point of view is a popular tactic called re-focusing...and its one people use when they are uncomfortable dealing with judgmental points against their own group.

like when white people re focus discussions about racism on reverse racism.

You are right that hip hop has objectified women. But you have also pointed out that whereas women are called bitches and hoes, men are called thugs and niggas. Men are shown to be subhuman, perhaps in a different way than women but still dehumanized. The idea that you can see one and not see the other, I cram to understand.

I think it gets confusing because men are the main rappers, they seem powerful in these videos or songs, but all they are doing is confirming coon and brute stereotypes, its just wrapped in bling.

You missed the part where I said black men being called "thugs and playas" and even "niggas" are embraced as positive things in hip hop and even largely in black american culture.  THEY called themselves this.  Its seen as something cool and embraced by rappers who are seen as heroes like Tupac, who popularized "Thug Life" and called himself a thug.  Black men call THEMSELVES "nigga" all the time.

so no, "bitches and hoes" is not the same thing.

I didn't miss your point. I referred to what you said. So some women don't call themselves bitches or hoes? They do. Some black female rappers even call themselves playas or an equivalent like Foxy Brown, Lil'Kim, Trina, and perhaps today Nicki Minaj.

It's not the same I will admit that, but at the same time I see it as an issue of black men embracing the idea of their own dehumanization and that has been helped mightily through rap music and other media.

[A.Curry]

Speak on it Ture,

Though I do take issue. I don't see the LGBT community as a whole disenfranchised. They do have the right to vote and they are wielding political power a whole lot more effectively than black people are these days. But I agree wholeheartedly about how you say that Coates is using the It group of the moment.

And you had some really good ideas that Coates could've taken with the series instead of this trendy, and faux controversial move. It's not controversial at all if almost every celebrity in Hollywood supports LGBT rights, the President supports LGBT rights, LGBT reality stars and characters are on television. Also more LGBT characters are in comics, with at least two heading series at DC, Batwoman and Midnighter. Also Catwoman was revealed to be bisexual. Heck, Empire, the most popular show on television, has a gay character as the main character, or at least the main hero character. So there is nothing revolutionary about having a lesbian couple in a comic book. And gender bending has become celebrated, such as Jaden Smith becoming the face of a women's clothing line. There were some griping about that around the margins, but nothing major. It's almost at a point where we don't wonder who is gay, but who isn't gay.

It's not bold at all, to be honest it feels like a sucker move. He won't take on racism (at least at first, according to him), despite having a little beef just this year over Bernie Sanders's lack of support for reparations, but yet he will go with an issue that has wide support among liberals. He isn't taking a hard road, he's just going with the flow.

again everything said here is "gay is a white problem and not a black one"

Every character you mentioned in your post is white...the Empire guy...ooohhh you can point out one gay black character among the many on TV and in movies.  And even he's getting a lot of backlash...by other black people.  He's not even the central character on Empire and the issues he's suffering from his own father and the community he lives in in the show is pretty much an enactment of the issues the director Lee Daniels went through himself...not because he was black but because he was gay.

Jaden Smith's gender bending was met with a HUGE amount of bile and ugly personal attacks by black people on various social sites...not only of himself but of his parents as well.

Whats not being got is while the "LGBT agenda" is a popular movement with white liberals, what Ta-Nehisi Coates is doing by bringing it in a black hero's comic is dealing with the issues and non-inclusion of black LGBT people within the black community itself.  The very community they should feel welcome in and included but often are either ignored or condemned.

Again, the fact your opinion is that they should have a secondary or non-existent focus in the Black Panther's comic underscores this.

And disenfranchisement can happen in many ways...just because one can vote and marry doesnt mean they are accepterd or included by many as a whole or on a social level.  Republicans could say the same thing about blacks...how are you disenfranchised?  You can vote, marry, go where you want, do whatever.  But that doesnt mean you dont face social injustices.  And LGBT black people face that not only from white but their own.

I don't buy that the black community is so doctrinaire homophobic. Even Michael Sam has recently said that he experienced more racism in the white gay community than hostility in the black community. I think the rampant black homophobia thing is overblown. What major black thought leader today is anti-gay? Even Charles Barkley, who threw shade on Mike Brown, has come out to speak against the LGBT legislation in North Carolina.

You say Empire is getting backlash and it is, but I bet you that the rock solid support that show is getting is from black people and it is praised and celebrated throughout black media, in addition to white media as well. So if blacks were so homophobic why are they supporting the hell out of Empire?

Youre obfuscating the point that there IS homophobia in the black community...i never said the black community was so "doctrinaire" homophobic or more homophobic than any other.  And why are you now comparing "racism" to "homophobia" specifically faced by black LGBT?  Were talking about what black LGBT goes through in their own communities...not the greater issue of white racism.  Your Michael Sam point has nothing to do with it.  Stop focusing on white people's racism in this instance and focus on the point about black LGBT in their own communities.

you seem to do this "refocus" thing a lot.

The very fact you have a problem with a black lesbian couple being center characters in a black comic book shows how some black people like you exclude lack LGBT and dont want them being seen or theyre stories told...especially in any instance over racism.

And of course you dont think its a problem in the black community...it doesnt affect you and from your posts black LGBT people are mostly invisible to you since you seem to think its "another people's" problem...why wouldnt their trials be invisible to you also?

and SOME black people are supporting the hell out of Empire, many despite the gay character in it who again is not even the main focus.  Many black fans of the show watch it anyway but prefer he wasnt in it or wasnt gay.

The same way you and a few other posters on here will still buy and read this comic despite the lesbian couple in it.

[Emperorjones]

Youre obfuscating the point that there IS homophobia in the black community...i never said the black community was so "doctrinaire" homophobic or more homophobic than any other.  And why are you now comparing "racism" to "homophobia" specifically faced by black LGBT?  Were talking about what black LGBT goes through in their own communities...not the greater issue of white racism.  Your Michael Sam point has nothing to do with it.  Stop focusing on white people's racism in this instance and focus on the point about black LGBT in their own communities.

you seem to do this "refocus" thing a lot.

The very fact you have a problem with a black lesbian couple being center characters in a black comic book shows how some black people like you exclude lack LGBT and dont want them being seen or theyre stories told...especially in any instance over racism.

And of course you dont think its a problem in the black community...it doesnt affect you and from your posts black LGBT people are mostly invisible to you since you seem to think its "another people's" problem...why wouldnt their trials be invisible to you also?

and SOME black people are supporting the hell out of Empire, many despite the gay character in it who again is not even the main focus.  Many black fans of the show watch it anyway but prefer he wasnt in it or wasnt gay.

The same way you and a few other posters on here will still buy and read this comic despite the lesbian couple in it.
[/quote]

Refocusing? Whatever. Maybe you just can't keep up.

LGBT people compare homophobia to racism all the time. If I was Lee Daniels you saying that you would be nodding your head, but I digress. I never said that there wasn't homophobia in the black community. Homophobia exists in the white community and other communities as well. What I do take issue with is that the black community is portrayed as virulently homophobic.

Regarding Michael Sam, he said he his experiences among blacks wasn't as bad as his experiences among whites. While I do agree that Michael Sam was talking about racism, still if his experiences among blacks as a out gay black man weren't so bad, I think it counters the narrative that the black community is just so much more homophobic than everyone else.

I don't have a problem with black lesbians being a central couple in a comic book. I do have a problem with them being the central characters in a Black Panther comic book. The Black Panther (T'Challa, Shuri, or otherwise) should be the main character period. If you wanted to have Aneka and Ayo as the main characters, do a Midnight Angels comic.

You are assuming a lot about me and reading into my posts regarding the LGBT community. But that's your right. It's easier to vilify me as an evil 'straight black male' instead. But that being said, do I consider racism a bigger issue than homophobia, yes I do. Racism affects both black gay and straight black people around the globe in a way that disastrously alters life outcomes. Black homophobia in comparison to white racism, IMO, isn't as damaging to the whole. Unfortunately some people have lost their lives because of it, but how much power does black homophobia have to determine where black people live, work, what they eat, what they drink, etc.? Racism has that power.

Fair point about Empire and the various reasons people might support it. In any event, you do have LGBT issues or at least one character as an important part of a show that millions of black people watch and love Empire.

[A.Curry]

I understand what your saying and truth be told. I don't want this to be a story were Ayo and Aneka are being propped up at the cost of T'Challa and Wakandan males being thrown under the bus. I think it's good to have the them doing things. But now the stories from now on should be 75% focus on T'Challa and 25% on the DM, the villains and whatever else. The first issue did a good job setting the tone. And in Priest's run it made sense for T'Challa to feel like a guest because it was to add to the mysterious feeling of no one, not ever the readers knowing what T'Challa is thinking, and readers and villains alike were surprised when he started closing trap door's. In this case we see T'Challas inner thought's and so we need to have a bigger focus, and I think we will. I don't think Ayo and Aneka are gonna become the stars of this story because it's a Black Panther story, not Wakanda or Dora Milaje. But it's still only the first issue so we will find out by issue 4 what kinda story it Is

I'm not as optimistic as you are. While reading your post the Blade television series from Spike came to mind. It was ostensibly a Blade series, that was supposed to be about Blade, I mean he was in every episode (if I recall), right? However the series was really about a brand new, and white character, Krista Starr.  All the personal stakes were for her. Avenging a lost brother, becoming a vampire, her romance with her brother's vamp killer. Blade became a co-star (at best), but really a supporting character in the series that bore his name. Blade was the wrapper, the branding for story about Krista.

This could very well be the case with T'Challa. I don't mind a bigger focus on the Dora Milaje as a whole, but I don't think we need a certain percentage of time given to them. I think it should be organic. And though I am concerned about how homosexuality has to be in everything now like its an edict from on high, it's not a deal breaker to me because I watch shows with homosexual characters, I've read comics with homosexual characters. So having a lesbian couple in Black Panther, among the Dora Milaje, does make sense to me like one of the above posts said. I was reading recently that Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman: Earth One book will have Wonder Woman in a lesbian relationship and possibly an interracial relationship, and those two things alone will not stop me from purchasing that book.

But as I said before, and let me restate, I wish that more heterosexual, intraracial and positive, healthy romantic and sexual black relationships were portrayed in the media. Portraying otherwise seems to me to be saying that black men and black women can't get along, that black heterosexual love is impossible, that it encourages other kinds of relationships. Basically black men and women can't work and live together in peace and harmony, that we can't build together. So that kind of thinking weakens us as a whole.

I also don't assume that we will get an active T'Challa in this series. Maberry kept promising big things for Storm and T'Challa in DoomWar and it never materialized. So I don't assume, I'll just see what happens.

Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?

well...

I must say...You really seem to have problems with this lesbian couple which is telling...especially since this point intentionally or unintentionally missed out on not only whats been shown in the comic, but what I said.

I said women AND LGBT people might be drawn more to the comic and/or appreciate his efforts...so yes two strong female and lesbian characters might do this.  Along with the fact that other women in the book, such as Ramonda and the antagonist, seem to be and will continue to be central and strong characters as well.  This could be a draw for straight AND LGBT women.

Shuri is not, I believe, a gay black woman.  So where would a gay black woman see herself included with her?

Shuri I will admit also was not promoted well and also was a character, a younger sister, who took up the main MALE character's mantle.  Some women would not see her as her own character but just continuing the legacy of a male character who would always be seen as THE main black panther.

Not to mention Shuri as of this date has always been written by men and arguably never dealt with women's issues as a social gender.  Simply putting a woman in a costume and making her kick ass just like most male heroes isnt really addressing her or writing her as a woman or even a black woman that will focus on issues specific to black women.[/list]

Thanks for letting me know why some people might have issues with Shuri and not see her as the MAIN Black Panther (though I could see that rationale if it came from a straight black male being considered sexist and misogynist). However, that leads to another question, would some of these supporters have rallied to Shuri if she had been gay? Does she have to be black and gay to get that support? To me you are conflating LGBT and women's issues together. While there is doubtless overlap, as there are with LGBT and the "dreaded" straight black male issues, there are also differences.

A larger question, does the gay identity supersede the black identity for some gay black people?

Shuri was never promoted enough and was pretty much a legacy type character.  Everyone knows T'Challa would be the Panther again and would be the MAIN Black Panther and she, a character that was secondary.

I and no one can say for certain other than that she wasnt heavily promoted if women would have come to Shuri.  Her being a woman im sure some black women would have come if she also was written socially as a woman and not just someone taking on the mantle of her brother.  And though LGBT lack women may have seen some of themselves in her, they wouldnt have seen that part of them that is often not depicted in most mainstream media and is not acknowledged in their communities.

YOU seem to be conflating LGBT and women's issues together...I never said their issues were the same across the board I merely included them as TWO SEPERATE GROUPS within the black community.  Ayo and Aneka are both WOMEN and LGBT so that is something black women and black LGBT women can see themselves in...Ive also stated the other female characters in the book are something black women as a whole can see themselves in as well.

You particularly seem to want or need to see LGBT as something seperate from being black...Im saying overall with this book there is something for LGBT and straight black women to see in this book...and not just with Ayo and Aneka though the LGBT black women who rarely see themselves depicted in any meaningful way will see themselves especially in Ayo and Aneka

Your last question; The fact that one has to ask that question is the problem.  Its like asking a gay black person to choose and they shouldnt have to.  BOTH often are equally important though depending on how and where theyve grown up, they may be demonized and take personally one moreso than the other.  Racism to a large extent they accept as a fact of life, but rejection and exclusion from their own people isnt always expected and is more personal.

[Emperorjones]

I understand what your saying and truth be told. I don't want this to be a story were Ayo and Aneka are being propped up at the cost of T'Challa and Wakandan males being thrown under the bus. I think it's good to have the them doing things. But now the stories from now on should be 75% focus on T'Challa and 25% on the DM, the villains and whatever else. The first issue did a good job setting the tone. And in Priest's run it made sense for T'Challa to feel like a guest because it was to add to the mysterious feeling of no one, not ever the readers knowing what T'Challa is thinking, and readers and villains alike were surprised when he started closing trap door's. In this case we see T'Challas inner thought's and so we need to have a bigger focus, and I think we will. I don't think Ayo and Aneka are gonna become the stars of this story because it's a Black Panther story, not Wakanda or Dora Milaje. But it's still only the first issue so we will find out by issue 4 what kinda story it Is

I'm not as optimistic as you are. While reading your post the Blade television series from Spike came to mind. It was ostensibly a Blade series, that was supposed to be about Blade, I mean he was in every episode (if I recall), right? However the series was really about a brand new, and white character, Krista Starr.  All the personal stakes were for her. Avenging a lost brother, becoming a vampire, her romance with her brother's vamp killer. Blade became a co-star (at best), but really a supporting character in the series that bore his name. Blade was the wrapper, the branding for story about Krista.

This could very well be the case with T'Challa. I don't mind a bigger focus on the Dora Milaje as a whole, but I don't think we need a certain percentage of time given to them. I think it should be organic. And though I am concerned about how homosexuality has to be in everything now like its an edict from on high, it's not a deal breaker to me because I watch shows with homosexual characters, I've read comics with homosexual characters. So having a lesbian couple in Black Panther, among the Dora Milaje, does make sense to me like one of the above posts said. I was reading recently that Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman: Earth One book will have Wonder Woman in a lesbian relationship and possibly an interracial relationship, and those two things alone will not stop me from purchasing that book.

But as I said before, and let me restate, I wish that more heterosexual, intraracial and positive, healthy romantic and sexual black relationships were portrayed in the media. Portraying otherwise seems to me to be saying that black men and black women can't get along, that black heterosexual love is impossible, that it encourages other kinds of relationships. Basically black men and women can't work and live together in peace and harmony, that we can't build together. So that kind of thinking weakens us as a whole.

I also don't assume that we will get an active T'Challa in this series. Maberry kept promising big things for Storm and T'Challa in DoomWar and it never materialized. So I don't assume, I'll just see what happens.

Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?

well...

I must say...You really seem to have problems with this lesbian couple which is telling...especially since this point intentionally or unintentionally missed out on not only whats been shown in the comic, but what I said.

I said women AND LGBT people might be drawn more to the comic and/or appreciate his efforts...so yes two strong female and lesbian characters might do this.  Along with the fact that other women in the book, such as Ramonda and the antagonist, seem to be and will continue to be central and strong characters as well.  This could be a draw for straight AND LGBT women.

Shuri is not, I believe, a gay black woman.  So where would a gay black woman see herself included with her?

Shuri I will admit also was not promoted well and also was a character, a younger sister, who took up the main MALE character's mantle.  Some women would not see her as her own character but just continuing the legacy of a male character who would always be seen as THE main black panther.

Not to mention Shuri as of this date has always been written by men and arguably never dealt with women's issues as a social gender.  Simply putting a woman in a costume and making her kick ass just like most male heroes isnt really addressing her or writing her as a woman or even a black woman that will focus on issues specific to black women.[/list]

Thanks for letting me know why some people might have issues with Shuri and not see her as the MAIN Black Panther (though I could see that rationale if it came from a straight black male being considered sexist and misogynist). However, that leads to another question, would some of these supporters have rallied to Shuri if she had been gay? Does she have to be black and gay to get that support? To me you are conflating LGBT and women's issues together. While there is doubtless overlap, as there are with LGBT and the "dreaded" straight black male issues, there are also differences.

A larger question, does the gay identity supersede the black identity for some gay black people?

Shuri was never promoted enough and was pretty much a legacy type character.  Everyone knows T'Challa would be the Panther again and would be the MAIN Black Panther and she, a character that was secondary.

I've long had an issue with how Marvel promotes and markets black characters, or black-led books, the few and far between. I didn't know how many people did know about Shuri outside of comic fans, and even among comic readers, that was probably a smaller slice. And mainstream comics in general have been terrible in how they've handled black female characters, not to mention the minuscule representation of black female talent behind the scenes. As for the legacy character though, good point, though sometimes legacy characters do go on to supplant the originals like Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Michael Holt, and Jamie Reyes. I guess there really aren't Marvel equivalents though. It remains to be seen how long the new Thor and Wolverine will last.

I and no one can say for certain other than that she wasnt heavily promoted if women would have come to Shuri.  Her being a woman im sure some black women would have come if she also was written socially as a woman and not just someone taking on the mantle of her brother.  And though LGBT lack women may have seen some of themselves in her, they wouldnt have seen that part of them that is often not depicted in most mainstream media and is not acknowledged in their communities.

Yeah, I don't know either. I mean we just haven't had that experience really in mainstream comics. Even the Storm comic was written by a man. There was a Vixen miniseries a few years back, written by a white woman. But off hand, I can't think of any mainstream series written by a black woman. Felicia D. Henderson was at DC for a moment, I think she wrote a few Teen Titans stories and then she was gone.

YOU seem to be conflating LGBT and women's issues together...I never said their issues were the same across the board I merely included them as TWO SEPERATE GROUPS within the black community.  Ayo and Aneka are both WOMEN and LGBT so that is something black women and black LGBT women can see themselves in...Ive also stated the other female characters in the book are something black women as a whole can see themselves in as well.

I'm not conflating anything. In your writing you kept saying LGBT and women like they are together on the issues so I assumed that's what you were thinking.

You particularly seem to want or need to see LGBT as something seperate from being black...Im saying overall with this book there is something for LGBT and straight black women to see in this book...and not just with Ayo and Aneka though the LGBT black women who rarely see themselves depicted in any meaningful way will see themselves especially in Ayo and Aneka

I don't need to separate anything. I don't why you keep saying I need to do this. That's fine that there is something for LGBT and black women to see in this book. Though I would argue that perhaps there was something to see before that as well. But I get it, it definitely feels special when one of your own is in a book, is the star of a book, or is prominent. I feel that way myself so I get that. My issue is that I don't think this relationship should dominate the Black Panther title, making T'Challa a supporting character in a book that bears his name. Now that might not be the case, but I got a feeling it will turn out to be.

Your last question; The fact that one has to ask that question is the problem.  Its like asking a gay black person to choose and they shouldnt have to.  BOTH often are equally important though depending on how and where theyve grown up, they may be demonized and take personally one moreso than the other.  Racism to a large extent they accept as a fact of life, but rejection and exclusion from their own people isnt always expected and is more personal.

Thanks for sharing that insight with me.

[A.Curry]

Youre obfuscating the point that there IS homophobia in the black community...i never said the black community was so "doctrinaire" homophobic or more homophobic than any other.  And why are you now comparing "racism" to "homophobia" specifically faced by black LGBT?  Were talking about what black LGBT goes through in their own communities...not the greater issue of white racism.  Your Michael Sam point has nothing to do with it.  Stop focusing on white people's racism in this instance and focus on the point about black LGBT in their own communities.

you seem to do this "refocus" thing a lot.

The very fact you have a problem with a black lesbian couple being center characters in a black comic book shows how some black people like you exclude lack LGBT and dont want them being seen or theyre stories told...especially in any instance over racism.

And of course you dont think its a problem in the black community...it doesnt affect you and from your posts black LGBT people are mostly invisible to you since you seem to think its "another people's" problem...why wouldnt their trials be invisible to you also?

and SOME black people are supporting the hell out of Empire, many despite the gay character in it who again is not even the main focus.  Many black fans of the show watch it anyway but prefer he wasnt in it or wasnt gay.

The same way you and a few other posters on here will still buy and read this comic despite the lesbian couple in it.

Refocusing? Whatever. Maybe you just can't keep up.

LGBT people compare homophobia to racism all the time. If I was Lee Daniels you saying that you would be nodding your head, but I digress. I never said that there wasn't homophobia in the black community. Homophobia exists in the white community and other communities as well. What I do take issue with is that the black community is portrayed as virulently homophobic.

Regarding Michael Sam, he said he his experiences among blacks wasn't as bad as his experiences among whites. While I do agree that Michael Sam was talking about racism, still if his experiences among blacks as a out gay black man weren't so bad, I think it counters the narrative that the black community is just so much more homophobic than everyone else.

I don't have a problem with black lesbians being a central couple in a comic book. I do have a problem with them being the central characters in a Black Panther comic book. The Black Panther (T'Challa, Shuri, or otherwise) should be the main character period. If you wanted to have Aneka and Ayo as the main characters, do a Midnight Angels comic.

You are assuming a lot about me and reading into my posts regarding the LGBT community. But that's your right. It's easier to vilify me as an evil 'straight black male' instead. But that being said, do I consider racism a bigger issue than homophobia, yes I do. Racism affects both black and straight black people around the globe in a way that disastrously alters life outcomes. Black homophobia in comparison to white racism, IMO, isn't as damaging to the whole. Unfortunately some people have lost their lives because of it, but how much power does black homophobia have to determine where black people live, work, what they eat, what they drink, etc.? Racism has that power.

Fair point about Empire and the various reasons people might support it. In any event, you do have LGBT issues or at least one character as an important part of a show that millions of black people watch and love Empire.
[/quote]

I can totally keep up, and have been doing so for the last few pages...but bringing up and comparing another issue that affects YOU personally when someone is talking about an issue that affects others is CLASSIC redirecting or refocusing,  White people who dont want to deal with issues focusing on white supremacy and racism do it all the time and men who feel uncomfortable being the focus of their issues in regards to sexism bring up almost non-existent issues in a patriarchal society like misandry do the same.

For instance, your viewpoint on hip hop and sexism...black men called THEMSELVES thugs and niggas...black women didnt give them that name....and they use it proudly and consistently.  MEN called women "bitches and hoes" and many black women called out against it...they only up unitl recently started "reclaiming" the words as some movement but those words carry a far bigger weight in society.  A woman being a "ho" is looked on far worse than a dude being a "thug" or "playa" which is seen as cool.  Thats the difference.  Trying to compare the two as equal is futile and dishonest.

Michael Sam never said his experiences as a gay black man among blacks wasnt "so bad"...just that his experiences among whites was worse.  And im sure it was.   That doesnt mean BOTH cant be focused on.

And no one said you were an "evil straight black male"...stop with the exaggerated and emotionally reactionary defensive victim posturing.  Again, fragile male egos cant take criticism about faults that focus on them in particular.

And it really looks like YOU cant keep up because no one said anything about either racism or homophobia being the "bigger" issue...wasnt and never was the damn point.  Racism is an overall bigger issue but that doesnt mean that homophobia as a thing outside and inside the black community cant be addressed too.  Black people can focus on more than one thing at once...especially if that other thing affects a large segment of black people.

You listed all the things racism can cause, but havent of course listed how being a gay black person can and has had black LGBT people thrown out of their parents homes, beaten up and even killed by others and their own, ostracized from their communities, their relationships not acknowledged by their families, and their images excluded from things including by a poster on here who think they dont belong in a black panther comic.  But no, "do that sh*t in a seperate comic", right?

Again, Coates has spent his entire career talking about racism, the Black Panther's book has had multiple runs dealing with racism and colonialism, but the writer himself takes time to focus on this issue inside one comic thats never been used to address it and all of a sudden racism is taking a backseat to depicting LGBT people and issues.  Plus its only the first issue and we dont know WHAT he's ALSO going to focus on later.  And you dont see the or refuse to see the exclusionary attitude in that.

Its funny and sad at the same time.....but going on with this is pointless because like the fans of Empire who dont necessarily approve of the one gay character, youre going to buy it anyway.

So no harm, no foul

[Emperorjones]

I can totally keep up, and have been doing so for the last few pages...but bringing up and comparing another issue that affects YOU personally when someone is talking about an issue that affects others is CLASSIC redirecting or refocusing,  White people who dont want to deal with issues focusing on white supremacy and racism do it all the time and men who feel uncomfortable being the focus of their issues in regards to sexism bring up almost non-existent issues in a patriarchal society like misandry do the same.

So its okay that Aneka and Ayo's relationship affects you personally, or LGBT issues seem to affect you personally? But I can't talk about something that affects me (and a good deal of other black people too) personally? Black Panther to this point has not centered on LGBT issues, but has to some extent touched on issues of race, colonialism, etc. So is it that much of a stretch to assume that the latest volume would also address those topics, particularly since the writer is a person well versed on those topics? I haven't said that sexism in the black community doesn't exist, so what am I redirecting or refocusing from? What I don't want to see is the image of black men brutalizing black women without context and without a balancing of images because too often society has shown black men as brutes, denying our humanity, while also denying the humanity of black women in other ways. It is my hope that a buy as insightful as Coates doesn't pull from that well.

For instance, your viewpoint on hip hop and sexism...black men called THEMSELVES thugs and niggas...black women didnt give them that name....and they use it proudly and consistently.  MEN called women "bitches and hoes" and many black women called out against it...they only up unitl recently started "reclaiming" the words as some movement but those words carry a far bigger weight in society.  A woman being a "ho" is looked on far worse than a dude being a "thug" or "playa" which is seen as cool.  Thats the difference.  Trying to compare the two as equal is futile and dishonest.

I think you make a good point here about who is doing the calling and name calling. That was something I hadn't considered before. But that doesn't discount that black men/black rappers have also demonized black men. And the word 'thug' today is used by some as substitute for nigger like 'urban' is for black. President Obama even referred to the 'thugs' during the situation in Baltimore. Women rightly have protested being called those names, but some black men have also spoken out against that as well, some of them straight black men (a surprise to you I'm sure) have been critical of rap and its misogyny. I do think it is worse for a woman to be called bitch for than for a man to be called a playa, which is still a compliment, but a thug, I do see it having dehumanizing aspects. Not as damaging as bitch, but still damaging. I never said they were equal, and to accuse me of doing so is showing a dishonest streak yourself.

Michael Sam never said his experiences as a gay black man among blacks wasnt "so bad"...just that his experiences among whites was worse.  And im sure it was.   That doesnt mean BOTH cant be focused on.

Fine, focus on both. My point was that the black community is depicted too often IMO as a cauldron of homophobia and that depiction needs revision.

And no one said you were an "evil straight black male"...stop with the exaggerated and emotionally reactionary defensive victim posturing.  Again, fragile male egos cant take criticism about faults that focus on them in particular.

Fair enough you didn't say I was evil...yet. I have no reactionary defensive victim posturing. Is that the new phrase the academia made up this week? Here we go with the 'fragile' male ego thing. What's up with not taking criticism? What criticism? And why should straight black males be criticized exactly? Who's doing the criticism and why? And can those criticizers in turn also be criticized themselves?

And it really looks like YOU cant keep up because no one said anything about either racism or homophobia being the "bigger" issue...wasnt and never was the damn point.  Racism is an overall bigger issue but that doesnt mean that homophobia as a thing outside and inside the black community cant be addressed too.  Black people can focus on more than one thing at once...especially if that other thing affects a large segment of black people.

Read my previous posts, I've never said homophobia was outside the black community. I think you have these talking points and you are trying to fit me within them. Now sometimes my views might fit, but other times not.

You listed all the things racism can cause, but havent of course listed how being a gay black person can and has had black LGBT people thrown out of their parents homes, beaten up and even killed by others and their own, ostracized from their communities, their relationships not acknowledged by their families, and their images excluded from things including by a poster on here who think they dont belong in a black panther comic.  But no, "do that sh*t in a seperate comic", right?

Thanks for listing some of the terrible things that happen to LGBT people. Admittedly I don't always see the costs associated with being a member of that community. But I'm fine with it being in a separate comic. Why does it have to be in a Black Panther comic?

Again, Coates has spent his entire career talking about racism, the Black Panther's book has had multiple runs dealing with racism and colonialism, but the writer himself takes time to focus on this issue inside one comic thats never been used to address it and all of a sudden racism is taking a backseat to depicting LGBT people and issues.  Plus its only the first issue and we dont know WHAT he's ALSO going to focus on later.  And you dont see the or refuse to see the exclusionary attitude in that.

I touched on this a little in a missive above, but to this point let me add. Coates himself said he talk of racism was being delayed, so its not my fevered brain that made that up. And it is one issue, but we've seen just in the preview for issue two that the Midnight Angels will be saving black women from evil black men.  Outside of the romantic relationship we don't know if other LGBT issues will even be addressed yet. We don't know what he's going to focus on in the future true and I've written that sentiment multiple times, but we already know what he has focused on. And the question is why?

Its funny and sad at the same time.....

I agree. Though I suspect we feel that way for different reasons.

[A.Curry]

I can totally keep up, and have been doing so for the last few pages...but bringing up and comparing another issue that affects YOU personally when someone is talking about an issue that affects others is CLASSIC redirecting or refocusing,  White people who dont want to deal with issues focusing on white supremacy and racism do it all the time and men who feel uncomfortable being the focus of their issues in regards to sexism bring up almost non-existent issues in a patriarchal society like misandry do the same.

So its okay that Aneka and Ayo's relationship affects you personally, or LGBT issues seem to affect you personally? But I can't talk about something that affects me (and a good deal of other black people too) personally? Black Panther to this point has not centered on LGBT issues, but has to some extent touched on issues of race, colonialism, etc. So is it that much of a stretch to assume that the latest volume would also address those topics, particularly since the writer is a person well versed on those topics? I haven't said that sexism in the black community doesn't exist, so what am I redirecting or refocusing from? What I don't want to see is the image of black men brutalizing black women without context and without a balancing of images because too often society has shown black men as brutes, denying our humanity, while also denying the humanity of black women in other ways. It is my hope that a buy as insightful as Coates doesn't pull from that well.

For instance, your viewpoint on hip hop and sexism...black men called THEMSELVES thugs and niggas...black women didnt give them that name....and they use it proudly and consistently.  MEN called women "bitches and hoes" and many black women called out against it...they only up unitl recently started "reclaiming" the words as some movement but those words carry a far bigger weight in society.  A woman being a "ho" is looked on far worse than a dude being a "thug" or "playa" which is seen as cool.  Thats the difference.  Trying to compare the two as equal is futile and dishonest.

I think you make a good point here about who is doing the calling and name calling. That was something I hadn't considered before. But that doesn't discount that black men/black rappers have also demonized black men. And the word 'thug' today is used by some as substitute for nigger like 'urban' is for black. President Obama even referred to the 'thugs' during the situation in Baltimore. Women rightly have protested being called those names, but some black men have also spoken out against that as well, some of them straight black men (a surprise to you I'm sure) have been critical of rap and its misogyny. I do think it is worse for a woman to be called bitch for than for a man to be called a playa, which is still a compliment, but a thug, I do see it having dehumanizing aspects. Not as damaging as bitch, but still damaging. I never said they were equal, and to accuse me of doing so is showing a dishonest streak yourself.

Michael Sam never said his experiences as a gay black man among blacks wasnt "so bad"...just that his experiences among whites was worse.  And im sure it was.   That doesnt mean BOTH cant be focused on.

Fine, focus on both. My point was that the black community is depicted too often IMO as a cauldron of homophobia and that depiction needs revision.

And no one said you were an "evil straight black male"...stop with the exaggerated and emotionally reactionary defensive victim posturing.  Again, fragile male egos cant take criticism about faults that focus on them in particular.

Fair enough you didn't say I was evil...yet. I have no reactionary defensive victim posturing. Is that the new phrase the academia made up this week? Here we go with the 'fragile' male ego thing. What's up with not taking criticism? What criticism? And why should straight black males be criticized exactly? Who's doing the criticism and why? And can those criticizers in turn also be criticized themselves?

And it really looks like YOU cant keep up because no one said anything about either racism or homophobia being the "bigger" issue...wasnt and never was the damn point.  Racism is an overall bigger issue but that doesnt mean that homophobia as a thing outside and inside the black community cant be addressed too.  Black people can focus on more than one thing at once...especially if that other thing affects a large segment of black people.

Read my previous posts, I've never said homophobia was outside the black community. I think you have these talking points and you are trying to fit me within them. Now sometimes my views might fit, but other times not.

You listed all the things racism can cause, but havent of course listed how being a gay black person can and has had black LGBT people thrown out of their parents homes, beaten up and even killed by others and their own, ostracized from their communities, their relationships not acknowledged by their families, and their images excluded from things including by a poster on here who think they dont belong in a black panther comic.  But no, "do that sh*t in a seperate comic", right?

Thanks for listing some of the terrible things that happen to LGBT people. Admittedly I don't always see the costs associated with being a member of that community. But I'm fine with it being in a separate comic. Why does it have to be in a Black Panther comic?

Again, Coates has spent his entire career talking about racism, the Black Panther's book has had multiple runs dealing with racism and colonialism, but the writer himself takes time to focus on this issue inside one comic thats never been used to address it and all of a sudden racism is taking a backseat to depicting LGBT people and issues.  Plus its only the first issue and we dont know WHAT he's ALSO going to focus on later.  And you dont see the or refuse to see the exclusionary attitude in that.

I touched on this a little in a missive above, but to this point let me add. Coates himself said he talk of racism was being delayed, so its not my fevered brain that made that up. And it is one issue, but we've seen just in the preview for issue two that the Midnight Angels will be saving black women from evil black men.  Outside of the romantic relationship we don't know if other LGBT issues will even be addressed yet. We don't know what he's going to focus on in the future true and I've written that sentiment multiple times, but we already know what he has focused on. And the question is why?

Its funny and sad at the same time.....


See, here's the thing...Ayo and Aneka"s relationship doesnt affect ME personally because Im not gay...this assumption you keep making just because im mature enough to care about other people's issues and that im able to judge other straight black men like me and myself in our communities is the problem...you assume I MUST be gay and all these false and bitch made defensive claims of me saying "straight black man is evil" and how "its a surprise to me that straight black men call out misogyny" is telling of your overall view.  Im a straight black man who f*cks women who calls out misogyny and homophobia.  so please, miss me with the subtle guilt trip for judging straight black men bullsh*t.  youre talking to one.

I just happen to be a progressive male that can care about more than one issue affecting black people at a time and even champion issues that dont affect me directly.  Because im f*cking human. Just like Coates obviously is. Go figure. 

And stop bullsh*tting dude.  You HAVENT been just talking about issues that affect you personally, of course you can do that...what youve been doing is talking about issues that affect you personally and using them to compare and dismiss the ones bought up in this book.  FOH.

I dont want to see the images of black men brutalizing women either and not sure why Coates has Wakandans doing that, but that has nothing to do with the topic weve been talking about and the reality of homophobia or sexism that exists in the black community.

And see, I never said that Black Panther's comic SHOULDNT focus on racism and never complained when it did.  Youre the one for three pages now who has a problem with homosexuality being depicted in it or being in the forefront after one issue.  I said it could do both.  See how inclusion works?  You dont have to exclude one group to include another.

And youve been redirecting or refocusing by bringing up one issue to compare and combat or dismiss another.  You did it with your "hey, what about misandry?" point when misogyny was bought up, and you did it with using racism when homophobia was bought up. THAT has nothing to do with you saying anything in the black community doesnt exist.  Keep up and focus on whats actually been said.

And if you werent victim posturing why come up with the silly "evil black male" line when no one said that sh*t? And what's up with you saying...yet?  Dude, in your assumption that Im gay or maybe a woman youre trying to manipulate in a subtle way the viewpoint that because Im saying these things, I must hate and see straight black men as bad. Meanwhile I am one Again, FOH with the defensive posturing.  Thats you trying to lead others reading this into an assumption thats not even there.  And its hugely dishonorable. Pointin out issues WE have in our own communities isnt hating us or thinking were evil.

And why shouldnt we straight black males be criticized if some of us do dumb sh*t thats sexist and homophobic? Black men, women, and others are doing the criticizing and sure, they can be criticized as well but not in an attempt to redirect the argument like youve been doing.  Take the criticism and deal with the damage some of us do in our own communities.

And nothing in that line you answered said anything about you saying homophobia was outside the black community.  you may make fun of academia but it could help you with your reading comprehension because nowhere in that line did I say that.

And why ask why this has to be in a Black Panther comic?  Why shouldnt it be in a Black Panther comic?  Black Panther focuses not just on Tchalla but an entire nation of people...so none of them may be LGBT and it cant be in his comic?  Would you ask that question if the focus was on a soldier in a wheelchair?  Or a blind Dora? Or a wakanda soldier with PTSD or who was a former child soldier?  Of course not. Any and all of these images or topics can be approached in a black Panther comic along with LGBT because all of it affects black people.  So again, why shouldnt it e in this comic?  There are other issues that various Black people face other than racism.

And why?  Why cant it simply be that Coates thought this was an interesting and important topic to focus on along with other other topics he may focus on in the near future?  Why is it so hard to find a reason why a straight black male like him or even myself would actually care about these issues that dont directly affect us, but other black people we may know and love or simply have empathy for?

Rhetorical question...I already know the answer

[Emperorjones]

See, here's the thing...Ayo and Aneka"s relationship doesnt affect ME personally because Im not gay...this assumption you keep making just because im mature enough to care about other people's issues and that im able to judge other straight black men like me and myself in our communities is the problem...you assume I MUST be gay and all these false and bitch made defensive claims of me saying "straight black man is evil" and how "its a surprise to me that straight black men call out misogyny" is telling of your overall view.  Im a straight black man who f*cks women who calls out misogyny and homophobia.  so please, miss me with the subtle guilt trip for judging straight black men bullsh*t.  youre talking to one.

I wasn't sure if you were gay or not, but since you attacked me, accusing me of not supporting something because it doesn't personally affect me, and you've been riding hard on the homosexuality issue, for this instance particularly I did wonder if that was the case. Also the way you wrote about Shuri and gay black women's perspective regarding her, I wasn't sure. But find the evidence where I have made this assumption repeatedly? You can't, because I haven't. It's not an issue of straight black men calling out misogyny at all. If you read my post you would see that I said that some straight black men have done so. There is nothing wrong with that at all. I don't like misogynist lyrics in rap. I don't get the insults here coming from you.

I just happen to be a progressive male that can care about more than one issue affecting black people at a time and even champion issues that dont affect me directly.  Because im f*cking human. Just like Coates obviously is. Go figure. 

You're assuming things about me again, but you've been doing that from jump, so no difference there. You're a progressive male, bravo for you.

And stop bullsh*tting dude.  You HAVENT been just talking about issues that affect you personally, of course you can do that...what youve been doing is talking about issues that affect you personally and using them to compare and dismiss the ones bought up in this book.  FOH.

So ,wait I haven't been talking about issues that affect me personally or have I? And I haven't dismissed the issues brought up in this book. I've speculated on why those issues were put in the book first and foremost. I think you are very defensive and accusing for such an allegedly progressive person.

I dont want to see the images of black men brutalizing women either and not sure why Coates has Wakandans doing that, but that has nothing to do with the topic weve been talking about and the reality of homophobia or sexism that exists in the black community.

What is the topic we're talking about then? Black men brutalizing black women doesn't fit within a discussion of sexism in the black community? And how the imagery of black brutes has been used to demonize black men shouldn't be discussed? So please tell me what should I talk about? You've been good at putting words in my mouth so far, you might as well write them too.

And see, I never said that Black Panther's comic SHOULDNT focus on racism and never complained when it did.  Youre the one for three pages now who has a problem with homosexuality being depicted in it or being in the forefront after one issue.  I said it could do both.  See how inclusion works?  You dont have to exclude one group to include another.

You're going on about exclusion when you display an exclusionary mindset for anyone who doesn't co-sign your 'progressive' views. I didn't say they shouldn't be in the book, but you're right about my wishing they were not at the forefront. The book is supposed to about Black Panther. It's not about Aneka and Ayo. Black Panther was on the cover (s). The book has been marketed as a Black Panther book. Now it might remain so, or it might turn into something else. If the story is going to be about Aneka and Ayo Marvel and Coates need to be honest about that up front and not use Black Panther as a cover to promote Aneka and Ayo.

And youve been redirecting or refocusing by bringing up one issue to compare and combat or dismiss another.  You did it with your "hey, what about misandry?" point when misogyny was bought up, and you did it with using racism when homophobia was bought up. THAT has nothing to do with you saying anything in the black community doesnt exist.  Keep up and focus on whats actually been said.

Now I'm redirecting as well? In addition to refocusing. I guess I can only discuss what you want me to talk about. I brought up misandry to put things into context. I wasn't dismissing misogyny at all, like you seem to think I was.

And if you werent victim posturing why come up with the silly "evil black male" line when no one said that sh*t? And what's up with you saying...yet?  Dude, in your assumption that Im gay or maybe a woman youre trying to manipulate in a subtle way the viewpoint that straight black men are hated and villified. Again, FOH with the bullsh*t.  Thats you trying to lead others reading this into an assumption thats not even there.  And its hugely dishonorable.

You've been knocking straight black males from early on in your posts. I did say that the term evil was one you didn't use, however you seem to have an issue with straight black men, and perhaps feel it is your self-appointed progressive straight black male duty to set all the rest of us Neanderthals straight (not 'straight' straight of course, but in terms of making us see 'reality' or 'truth' or reality as you see it.)

And why shouldnt we straight black males be criticized if some of us do dumb sh*t thats sexist and homophobic? Black men, women, and others are doing the criticizing and sure, they can be criticized as well but not in an attempt to redirect the argument like youve been doing.  Take the criticism and deal with the damage some of us do in our own communities.

Once again you seem to be telling me how I can talk and what I can talk about. So you also deem what's relevant to discuss and how to discuss it? Oh well. I never said straight black males shouldn't be criticized. I've done so myself. Even regarding President Obama. Look at some my posts over the years about him on this forum for example. But I don't like the idea that straight black males are THE problem. Criticism with context, or if necessary nuance, is what I prefer. Just slamming black men, without looking at historical and economic and other factors, without looking at other groups and what they are doing-if similar-and then dropping the mic, I'm not cool with that. That's not fair. And it continues to paint the picture of black men as dangerous, threatening, etc.

And nothing in that line you answered said anything about you saying homophobia was outside the black community.  you may make fun of academia but it could help you with your reading comprehension because nowhere in that line did I say that.

You wrote about that regarding homophobia so I was responding to that. And academia is not an end-all-be-all. You can be an educated fool, or rather a miseducated one.

And why ask why this has to be in a Black Panther comic?  Why shouldnt it be in a Black Panther comic?  Black Panther focuses not just on Tchalla but an entire nation of people...so none of them may be LGBT and it cant be in his comic?  Would you ask that question if the focus was on a soldier in a wheelchair?  Or a blind Dora? Or a wakanda soldier with PTSD or who was a former child soldier?  Of course not. Any and all of these images or topics can be approached in a black Panther comic along with LGBT because all of it affects black people.  So again, why shouldnt it e in this comic?  There are other issues that various Black people face other than racism.

Assuming again. Yes I would ask that question for all those examples. The book is supposed to be about Black Panther. I'm paying my money-in fact this Black Panther is one of the first books I ever subscribed to-because I was led to believe this book will be about him, his travails and his triumphs. I want him front and center. I don't have a problem with supporting characters in comic books, even prominent supporting characters, but I do have a problem with a supporting character (s) that reduces the ostensible main character to a background or supporting role.

Flipping the question, would you be riding so hard for this if any of those supporting characters were not LGBT? If one of the Midnight Angels was involved with one of the Hatut Zeraze for example?

And why?  Why cant it simply be that Coates thought this was an interesting and important topic to focus on along with other other topics he may focus on in the near future?  Why is it so hard to find a reason why a straight black male like him or even myself would actually care about these issues that dont directly affect us, but other black people we may know and love or simply have empathy for?

That very well may be the case that Coates is doing exactly what you're saying. He obviously feels strongly enough about the issue to put in the first issue of this series and from the preview will likely continue to develop Ayo and Aneka into major characters during his run. I don't find it hard at all for straight black males to 'care' about other issues, though I am disappointed that you are making an implication that I, or straight black males who might share my perspective-don't. Or that even LGBT black people 'care' more than about their own particular set of issues. To me, its assumed that LGBT people and some black women are given the benefit of the doubt, but certain straight black males seem to be the villains in your perspective, unless they are enlightened like you and Coates, excuse me, 'progressive'. You pretend to be embracing and open but you've been very exclusionary throughout most of our exchanges and dismissive especially during this latest screed.

Rhetorical question...I already know the answer

Thank you for answering for me. You're very good at assuming about me anyway.
[/quote]

[Booshman]

Well....well damn!

https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/718549436499148800

[Salustrade]

Major props to Emperorjones for holding it down and keeping it civil.

You're that dude.

As usual Brothas Ture and Kimoyo keeping it 100.

[Booshman]

I don't even know why Emp bothered with that deflecting "Enlightened Negro" who gallivants around and constantly opts for black dudes to put everyone before themselves. While the opposite is rarely done for them, by said groups.

[Emperorjones]

I don't even know why Emp bothered with that deflecting "Enlightened Negro" who gallivants around and constantly opts for black dudes to put everyone before themselves. While the opposite is rarely done for them, by said groups.

Thanks Sal and Booshman. I tried to keep it mostly civil, even after the cursing and name calling, which I did find funny in retrospect, with bitch being a horrible misogynist word, and it is, but being 'bitch made' is perfectly acceptable to use as an insult. But once we get to the name calling stage the conversation is pretty much over as far as I'm concerned.

I think some black folks think being for 'everyone' proves their moral superiority and that being a nice person will make them seem less threatening and will get results. That if we extend our hands, 'in love' (like Common suggested), hands will extend back to us, and we'll all hold hands together as we skip down the road of togetherness to Wonderland. What often has come back instead is not an extended hand, but a fist.

And even the allies who aren't swinging on us, aren't rushing to our defense. They are too busy getting with the people doing the swinging or trying to. They use us when its convenient but discard us at a moment's notice once our usefulness as cannon fodder and symbols is over. And then they have the gall, or the wizardry to use figures, songs, quotes, and other Civil Rights stuff often to 'reinforce' their points.

Now does that mean that every member of the groups of our 'allies' does that? No. It does not, but those numbers are minuscule and not something I think we should be wasting our time trying to find out. If you ride with us, you ride, but its a waste looking for the 'good' people among our allies. Wasn't it Socrates that went around with a torch looking for one honest man? Who has time for that. 
 
People respect strength and power, they don't respect weakness and begging. They don't respect people trying to fit in. At best they pity them. And it's funny as well that some feminists would likely decry strength and power as 'masculine' but at the same time some feminists will celebrate seeing Furiosa or Rey kick ass, and what are they displaying exactly? Strength, power, agency. So its not a matter of those things as concepts being 'wrong', its who is using them, or who is displaying them. But some people, IMO, get it twisted and go whole hog, buying the whole thing, hook, line, and sinker. And if they are in fact wrong, then some of these feminists are wrong or hypocritical for praising them. But wait? Feminists, or members of the LGBT aren't wrong, ever, it seems for some folks.