Author Topic: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther  (Read 618339 times)

Offline A.Curry

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That preview did absolutely nothing to dissaude my trepidation about Coates' iteration of the Black Panther. The dialogue was weak, the art not as sharp and to have such hienous acts occur on T'Challa's home turf screamed of Maberry. Is Coates is attempting to terraform Wakandan into Gotham or some analoge of a corrupt of Afrakan nation? Either way so far based on the preview it doesn't feel right. Next Wednesday tells the tale but for now let see how well BP is depicted in CACW.

I agree with this...the dialogue really did come off as pedestrian and elementary...wonder if this could be attributed to Coates not really being a fiction or comics writer...I did have concern about him writing a comic as he is an essayist and not a novelist or comics writer.  The art did not seem as sharp to me either.

Some stuff I read with Coates seems to suggest he may be trying to write a Wakanda post-trauma, one destabilized in various ways due to everything from Namor's flooding to the death of W'kabi and his Uncle to Doom's attack to the invasion of Thanos and the Black Order and Shuri's death.  Even so I agree showing a post-trauma Waknda that has some similarities to some other underdeveloped African nations with "L.R.A.-Boko Haram" type issues isn't the best way to go with a nation that is too socially developed to engage in such vicious and colonized acts.  But of course, these are real world issues he increasingly appears to feel compelled to address, which isn't a bad thing but again the HOW in a comic like this is still highly questionable.




Offline supreme illuminati

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I think there is reason to hope Coates renders a more than palatable Black Panther/Wakanda; the attention to African language, history and custom for example, there could turn out to be quite a bit to like about his rendition.  I liked the way he said T'Challa has a plan.  However, there cannot be prolonged, unexplained out of character developments.  Coates will need to offer a plausible explanation for the actions of the chieftain Ayo killed and the actions of these rogue Wakandans of this camp in the northern region of the country and sooner rather than later.

Peace,

Mont


Well said, Mont.

However, how would you define "sooner, rather than later"? Before or by issue 4?
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Offline Ture

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I imagine Coates may have some concerns...



For the record... that woman is probably not a Dora Milaje, being clean shaven maybe a style that is popular in Wakanda; there is absolutely no issue with a female attendant presenting a meal to the king, as Shuri probably had male attendees serving her; just saying...

The aesthetic quality of this picture demands an entire issue be dedicated to the uniqueness that is Wakanda.



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Offline Kimoyo

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I think there is reason to hope Coates renders a more than palatable Black Panther/Wakanda; the attention to African language, history and custom for example, there could turn out to be quite a bit to like about his rendition.  I liked the way he said T'Challa has a plan.  However, there cannot be prolonged, unexplained out of character developments.  Coates will need to offer a plausible explanation for the actions of the chieftain Ayo killed and the actions of these rogue Wakandans of this camp in the northern region of the country and sooner rather than later.

Peace,

Mont


Well said, Mont.

However, how would you define "sooner, rather than later"? Before or by issue 4?

Thanks S.I.!  I miss the days when comics were by and large a series of stories concluded in a single monthly issue.  However, I appreciate the complexity of a more mature, thoughtfully developed story.  So I can get behind two and even four issue story arcs, but if it must be the latter, let's be on the way to resolving conflict such that there are monthly nuggets to enjoy on the way to a, not predictable, but somewhat intuitive and satisfying conclusion.  My two cents. 

By the way, not to mix threads, but you know I'm dyin' to hear your assessment of T'Challa's fighting style in Civil War bruh!  Don't leave us hanging Supreme one!  8)

Peace,

Mont

Offline Ture

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New Entertainment Weekly article on BP coming soon.


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courtesy of CBR's Dboi, Realdealholyand Nj06
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Offline Ezyo

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New Entertainment Weekly article on BP coming soon.


Totally Awesome Hulk #10 cover


http://youtu.be/WVqAnQe_xGw

courtesy of CBR's Dboi, Realdealholyand Nj06


We seriously gotta get a cm to get realdealholy over here, he's been trying for awhile.

Stelfreeze art is on point. Too, I would watch an animation based off his art akin to Hudlins run

Offline A.Curry

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When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

(And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

Offline Salustrade

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When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

(And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

Offline A.Curry

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When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

(And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

I don't know if I'd say he's on the Coates Kool-Aid...supreme seems to be concerned and has a somewhat negative view about how Coates is writing Wakanda, but separating that from how he's handling T'Challa...I'm guessing Salustrade that your viewpoint in regards to my question is that writing Wakanda in a negative light mirrors how Panther is seen as well?  Or do you think Coates is writing T'Challa specifically bad as well?

Funny enough, I stopped by to see reactions to the latest issue...I personally found it better than the first and Panther definitely saw some action though some things regarding the issues with Wakanda is still and increasingly problematic as I'm sure most will find.  There also is definitely a "feminist" push going through centering around the two Dora, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got there own series after this...lol.  But as I said, the topics Coates is trying to address in this kinda seems misplaced within the backdrop and continuing  mythos of Wakanda.

I also agree that a Wakanda that has these things going on within it even post trauma DOES reflect negatively on T'Challa himself.  An explanation would have to be given why the things shown have been happening under his nose.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 12:28:10 pm by A.Curry »

Offline Salustrade

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When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

(And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

I don't know if I'd say he's on the Coates Kool-Aid...supreme seems to be concerned and has a somewhat negative view about how Coates is writing Wakanda, but separating that from how he's handling T'Challa...I'm guessing Salustrade that your viewpoint in regards to my question is that writing Wakanda in a negative light mirrors how Panther is seen as well?  Or do you think Coates is writing T'Challa specifically bad as well?

Funny enough, I stopped by to see reactions to the latest issue...I personally found it better than the first and Panther definitely saw some action though some things regarding the issues with Wakanda is still and increasingly problematic as I'm sure most will find.  There also is definitely a "feminist" push going through centering around the two Dora, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got there own series after this...lol.  But as I said, the topics Coates is trying to address in this kinda seems misplaced within the backdrop and continuing  mythos of Wakanda.

I also agree that a Wakanda that has these things going on within it even post trauma DOES reflect negatively on T'Challa himself.  An explanation would have to be given why the things shown have been happening under his nose.

The Koolaid reference was in no way directed towards Supreme Illuminati whohas as you have stated, expressed a level of discomfort with what Coates is doing that more or less in line with concerns most of us have raised thus far.

Having read BP #2, it's pretty obvious to me that Coates fully intends to keep pushing the Wakandan Boko Haram trope as a way to provide a platform for the equal push of a  strong feminist agenda within the book.

The fact that there have never been any gender based problems evident throughout the BP mythos (prior to Coates) seems to have been lost on the writer.

I've found your assessement of Coates output in this regard, to be spot on.

Offline A.Curry

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When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

(And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

I don't know if I'd say he's on the Coates Kool-Aid...supreme seems to be concerned and has a somewhat negative view about how Coates is writing Wakanda, but separating that from how he's handling T'Challa...I'm guessing Salustrade that your viewpoint in regards to my question is that writing Wakanda in a negative light mirrors how Panther is seen as well?  Or do you think Coates is writing T'Challa specifically bad as well?

Funny enough, I stopped by to see reactions to the latest issue...I personally found it better than the first and Panther definitely saw some action though some things regarding the issues with Wakanda is still and increasingly problematic as I'm sure most will find.  There also is definitely a "feminist" push going through centering around the two Dora, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got there own series after this...lol.  But as I said, the topics Coates is trying to address in this kinda seems misplaced within the backdrop and continuing  mythos of Wakanda.

I also agree that a Wakanda that has these things going on within it even post trauma DOES reflect negatively on T'Challa himself.  An explanation would have to be given why the things shown have been happening under his nose.

The Koolaid reference was in no way directed towards Supreme Illuminati whohas as you have stated, expressed a level of discomfort with what Coates is doing that more or less in line with concerns most of us have raised thus far.

Having read BP #2, it's pretty obvious to me that Coates fully intends to keep pushing the Wakandan Boko Haram trope as a way to provide a platform for the equal push of a  strong feminist agenda within the book.

The fact that there have never been any gender based problems evident throughout the BP mythos (prior to Coates) seems to have been lost on the writer.

I've found your assessement of Coates output in this regard, to be spot on.

Okay, I gathered he was the only person you could've been referring to since he did say he trusted Coates in his handling of T'Challa specifically, just not Wakanda, in that post you copied, and probably because of the strong disagreements you've had about Hickman before...Plus for various reasons I didn't think you meant that for me. Not sure who "some people" are than.

Because if that referred to me it's a highly questionable assessment since 1: the question I posed to supreme that you highlighted was in no way giving positive credit to Coates but bringing up the overall objective question on whether or not writing Wakanda in this negative light reflects on T'Challa negatively as well, as Supreme seemed to be in his assessment separating Coates handling of the two...and 2: I've stated in recent posts over the last few pages that HOW Coates is going about doing this and involving this LRA/Boko Haram thing in the mythos of Wakanda and within its borders is a mistake...as I've even said Wakandan society is too evolved to have these particular and ugly issues...even post trauma.

Or maybe you were referring to other fans elsewhere.

Either way, glad we agree on my assessment of Coates output in the regard you spoke of.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 02:18:29 pm by A.Curry »

Offline Salustrade

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When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

(And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

I don't know if I'd say he's on the Coates Kool-Aid...supreme seems to be concerned and has a somewhat negative view about how Coates is writing Wakanda, but separating that from how he's handling T'Challa...I'm guessing Salustrade that your viewpoint in regards to my question is that writing Wakanda in a negative light mirrors how Panther is seen as well?  Or do you think Coates is writing T'Challa specifically bad as well?

Funny enough, I stopped by to see reactions to the latest issue...I personally found it better than the first and Panther definitely saw some action though some things regarding the issues with Wakanda is still and increasingly problematic as I'm sure most will find.  There also is definitely a "feminist" push going through centering around the two Dora, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got there own series after this...lol.  But as I said, the topics Coates is trying to address in this kinda seems misplaced within the backdrop and continuing  mythos of Wakanda.

I also agree that a Wakanda that has these things going on within it even post trauma DOES reflect negatively on T'Challa himself.  An explanation would have to be given why the things shown have been happening under his nose.

The Koolaid reference was in no way directed towards Supreme Illuminati whohas as you have stated, expressed a level of discomfort with what Coates is doing that more or less in line with concerns most of us have raised thus far.

Having read BP #2, it's pretty obvious to me that Coates fully intends to keep pushing the Wakandan Boko Haram trope as a way to provide a platform for the equal push of a  strong feminist agenda within the book.

The fact that there have never been any gender based problems evident throughout the BP mythos (prior to Coates) seems to have been lost on the writer.

I've found your assessement of Coates output in this regard, to be spot on.

Okay, I gathered he was the only person you could've been referring to since he did say he trusted Coates in his handling of T'Challa specifically, just not Wakanda, in that post you copied, and probably because of the strong disagreements you've had about Hickman before...Plus for various reasons I didn't think you meant that for me. Not sure who "some people" are than.

Because if that referred to me it's a highly questionable assessment since 1: the question I posed to supreme that you highlighted was in no way giving positive credit to Coates but bringing up the overall objective question on whether or not writing Wakanda in this negative light reflects on T'Challa negatively as well, as Supreme seemed to be in his assessment separating Coates handling of the two...and 2: I've stated in recent posts over the last few pages that HOW Coates is going about doing this and involving this LRA/Boko Haram thing in the mythos of Wakanda and within its borders is a mistake...as I've even said Wakandan society is too evolved to have these particular and ugly issues...even post trauma.

Or maybe you were referring to other fans elsewhere.


Either way, glad we agree on my assessment of Coates output in the regard you spoke of.

I was referring to some posters over on CBR.  :)

Offline A.Curry

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When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

(And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

I don't know if I'd say he's on the Coates Kool-Aid...supreme seems to be concerned and has a somewhat negative view about how Coates is writing Wakanda, but separating that from how he's handling T'Challa...I'm guessing Salustrade that your viewpoint in regards to my question is that writing Wakanda in a negative light mirrors how Panther is seen as well?  Or do you think Coates is writing T'Challa specifically bad as well?

Funny enough, I stopped by to see reactions to the latest issue...I personally found it better than the first and Panther definitely saw some action though some things regarding the issues with Wakanda is still and increasingly problematic as I'm sure most will find.  There also is definitely a "feminist" push going through centering around the two Dora, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got there own series after this...lol.  But as I said, the topics Coates is trying to address in this kinda seems misplaced within the backdrop and continuing  mythos of Wakanda.

I also agree that a Wakanda that has these things going on within it even post trauma DOES reflect negatively on T'Challa himself.  An explanation would have to be given why the things shown have been happening under his nose.

The Koolaid reference was in no way directed towards Supreme Illuminati whohas as you have stated, expressed a level of discomfort with what Coates is doing that more or less in line with concerns most of us have raised thus far.

Having read BP #2, it's pretty obvious to me that Coates fully intends to keep pushing the Wakandan Boko Haram trope as a way to provide a platform for the equal push of a  strong feminist agenda within the book.

The fact that there have never been any gender based problems evident throughout the BP mythos (prior to Coates) seems to have been lost on the writer.

I've found your assessement of Coates output in this regard, to be spot on.

Okay, I gathered he was the only person you could've been referring to since he did say he trusted Coates in his handling of T'Challa specifically, just not Wakanda, in that post you copied, and probably because of the strong disagreements you've had about Hickman before...Plus for various reasons I didn't think you meant that for me. Not sure who "some people" are than.

Because if that referred to me it's a highly questionable assessment since 1: the question I posed to supreme that you highlighted was in no way giving positive credit to Coates but bringing up the overall objective question on whether or not writing Wakanda in this negative light reflects on T'Challa negatively as well, as Supreme seemed to be in his assessment separating Coates handling of the two...and 2: I've stated in recent posts over the last few pages that HOW Coates is going about doing this and involving this LRA/Boko Haram thing in the mythos of Wakanda and within its borders is a mistake...as I've even said Wakandan society is too evolved to have these particular and ugly issues...even post trauma.

Or maybe you were referring to other fans elsewhere.


Either way, glad we agree on my assessment of Coates output in the regard you spoke of.

I was referring to some posters over on CBR.  :)

okay...

I actually think the issues Coates is trying to address would have made more sense and not be as damaging to T"Challa nor Wakanda if these issues were happening outside of Wakanda and The Dora were bringing attention to how Wakanda as a beacon of Africa should extend its might and example outside of its borders and deal with some of the horrible sh*t happening in certain parts of the continent.  Of course that would lead to interfering in other nations and make Wakanda be viewed as a "rogue" nation ignoring UN protocols and getting too involved in other countries' politics...and could also lead to dealing with foreign nations who historically and most likely currently have had a hand in the destabilization of african nations...but that might be too big, too political, and too close to home so to speak of a story to tell.

Offline Kimoyo

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Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont

Offline Blanks

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Funny. A lot of us wanted an authentic black voice to write Panther and this is what we get. Meanwhile, Panther's best portrayal since forever is being written in Ultimates by Ewing, who has shown to respect Panther more in 5 issues in a shared team book than Panther can get in his solo.

This book is horrible. Normally I judge a book by its third or forth issue, but two issues in... How high the mighty Wakanda has fallen. This is worse than any flood could have ever done to the golden city. Normally, I'm a fan who will wait for a good pay off for a story to conclude, but after seeing Cap 3 already 4 times this past week (let's be honest, while the Cap movies are my favorite Marvel movies, this was mostly for the Panther) and wanting more of a Panther fix, this was a damn near slap in the face.

I dunno. I just.... I dunno. I'm a little numb to this book right now. I'm going to go ahead and pull the this run like I normally would, but I don't think I'll read any more until this arc is finished. Read it all in one setting. Then judge it. But as of now, coming behind Captain America 3, this series is the worst thing ever to expose new readers to the character and his mythos.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 08:15:26 pm by Blanks »