Author Topic: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther  (Read 618798 times)

Offline True Father 7

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Funny. A lot of us wanted an authentic black voice to write Panther and this is what we get. Meanwhile, Panther's best portrayal since forever is being written in Ultimates by Ewing, who has shown to respect Panther more in 5 issues in a shared team book than Panther can get in his solo.

This book is horrible. Normally I judge a book by its third or forth issue, but two issues in... How high the mighty Wakanda has fallen. This is worse than any flood could have ever done to the golden city. Normally, I'm a fan who will wait for a good pay off for a story to conclude, but after seeing Cap 3 already 4 times this past week (let's be honest, while the Cap movies are my favorite Marvel movies, this was mostly for the Panther) and wanting more of a Panther fix, this was a damn near slap in the face.

I dunno. I just.... I dunno. I'm a little numb to this book right now. I'm going to go ahead and pull the this run like I normally would, but I don't think I'll read any more until this arc is finished. Read it all in one setting. Then judge it. But as of now, coming behind Captain America 3, this series is the worst thing ever to expose new readers to the character and his mythos.

agreed, and yes Ultimates is the T'challa I'm familiar with
"Don't count the days, make the days count"-Muhammad Ali

Offline A.Curry

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Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont

Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?

Offline Ezyo

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Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont

Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?

Excellent points. I think its a combo of things. ther have been people of less moral fiber bringing things into Wakanda, such as back in the day the drug traffiking, and though what we are seeing now is new, and more akin to real world issue going on now, I agree now may not have been the best time to showcase this in Wakanda. It was mentioned over at the CBR forums but posters there were talking about how the story could have a similar premise but instead of all this stuff going on in Wakanda, have it happening in a neighboring nation and the issue is whether or not Wakanda should get involved, with the Dora's doing excatly what they are doing right now, but it happening to Nigandan bandits, and leaders in power, rather then Wakanda, and T'Challa trying to find the best course of action while not trying to make it seem like Wakanda is going rogue to the UN or other nations. But of course thats not what we have but it could of been a good alternative.

Also:
I think they are apart of the People. I think the point is that Tetu wants to first have Zenzi fan the flames in the hearts of the Wakandan people, then when they are going wild and violence and trafficking rings and such "The People" are going to come in as saviors (while also probably being the ones behind the scenes assisting this Jambazi Tribe with their traffiking ring), providing a safe haven for the citizens ushering them away from the bandits as a way of putting themselves in a better light. So when T'Challa comes in and starts smashing faces, they don't see it as their king coming to their aid, but as a tyrant crushing their hope of protection from the violence and rape from the Bandits and Jambazi.

Thats my theory. I think they are Tetu's men Especially since Zenzi was there. I wouldn't think she would go somewhere without some protection despite her power


Offline The Wakandan

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Greetings all. New to these parts, so please, go easy on me  ;D. Spoilers on the way as well.

Read issues 1 and 2 back to back. Good story overall. Stelfreeze's art and Martin's colors are definitely on point. Overall, I do feel that the Midnight Angels are well-done as of now. Also, Shuri's journey is probably the biggest hook to me at the moment. I'm very curious on how things go on that end.

However, I'm very concerned with the portrayal of T'Challa and Wakanda.

In issue 2 in particular, T'Challa decides--foolishly, imho--to embark in a mission by himself in the midst of everything going on in the country. He not only misdiagnosed Zenzi's powers, but didn't seem to have a backup plan in case he did. This version of T'Challa, so far, is rather reckless and appears somewhat out-of-touch. Perhaps thats what Coates is going for, but I'm not sure that's the right direction to go in terms of elevating the characters. Struggles are fine, but I feel there are ways to make characters struggle in ways that are still in character. T'Challa has gone through a lot of struggles in the past 5-6 years. It's imperative that he finally gets some concrete wins, especially in his own book.

My biggest concern, however, involves the portrayal of Wakanda (which is tied indirectly to T'Challa as well). Already, we've had a chieftain committing vile acts to women...and apparently, no one did anything about until Aneka stepped in. Now we have human trafficking rings going on in Wakanda...and again, no one, not the people or even the government, has done anything about it, until the Midnight Angels stepped in. We also learn via dialogue between Aneka and Ayo that there are even more corrupt chieftains out there, many of them under the eye of the crown.

Wakanda obviously isn't a Utopia, and as a result, there will be crime of some kind. I was even willing to suspend disbelief about the chieftain in issue #1, under the assumption that he was the exception, not necessarily the rule. However, we're not seeing that he isn't the exception, that there are more like him. Furthermore, there's even more mischief at a high level going on (human trafficking) in parts of Wakanda...and yet the Wakandan government isn't doing much--if anything--about it.

That part, I find really hard to believe. I seriously doubt that any of the characters who have been charge as of late--T'Challa, Shuri, Ramonda, etc--would even tolerate such a thing going on. More importantly, I also strongly doubt that they would turn a blind eye to it.

Such things going on under the current rule is a poor reflection of the monarchy as an institution, T'Challa as a ruler, and Wakanda as a nation. Wakanda surely has flaws like any other nation, but historically Wakanda, at least in my opinion, has been different, especially in terms of leadership. It's in big part because of the Black Panthers that Wakanda has managed to maintain its culture, autonomy, its technological advancements, and so on. So to read that apparently all of this is going on under the watch of a Black Panther--T'Challa in particular--is not a good look. It makes one wonder how long have these things been going on for. If it isn't a recent thing, then how did things deteriorate so quickly? And why isn't anything done about it?

Coates obviously has a premise he wants to follow through, but surely he could've found another way to make it work, without having Wakanda go through these particular types of things.

Offline The Wakandan

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Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont

Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?


I'm one of those that feel, despite my somewhat negative feelings about the premise, that the premise has a lot of merit. Wakanda has faced a high amount of unprecedented events in its history, from infiltration (DoomWar), to biblical flood (AvX), to eventual destruction (Time Runs Out). Yes, T'Challa did bring everyone back, but it appears that enough people do remember what happened prior to their deaths. Thus, I can understand that there could be a large amount of people who could have negative feelings about the Wakandan government's inability to protect the country. A good amount of those people may even have negative feelings about T'Challa himself, depending on what they know about his actions during the Hickman run and perhaps his knack of being very involved with outsiders and events outside of Wakanda that don't involve Wakanda.

However, that currently doesn't explain how things went from apparent recovery to numerous corrupt--and lecherous--chieftains allowed to operate, as well had mischievous operations going on within Wakanda's borders. One could argue that perhaps these events have been going on prior to the Coates run. If so, that is a major red flag in the leadership of T'Challa, Shuri, and possibly T'Chaka and other previous panthers. One could also say it is a result of a mounting distrust for the Monarchy and something resembling anarchy has risen in some parts of Wakanda. If so, where's the royal family's reaction to this? Why isn't it clamping it down, rather than seemingly turning a blind eye to it?

Maybe there's something I've missed while reading, but it's as if we are currently have actions occur strictly for the sake of the plot, similar to how thing began unfolding during the Hickman run. I hope there are clear explanations for all this. More importantly, I would really like the royal family, and T'Challa in particular as King, to take a firm stance and decisive actions on panel against those situations.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:17:27 am by The Wakandan »

Offline The Wakandan

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Son of the Black Panther
Ta-Nehisi Coates takes on one of Marvel's iconic superheroes, reinvigorating the Black Panther for a new generation.
BY JONATHAN W. GRAY
April 26, 2016


This article has been edited.

... As befits the first hero of African descent published by a major comic book publisher, T’Challa interacts in significant ways with all of Marvel’s other black characters—from the Falcon to Luke Cage to Storm—and they derive inspiration from his stewardship of Wakanda, a truly independent African state that also happens to be the most advanced nation on earth. Marvel’s original rhetoric about Wakanda—unconquered by Western powers and thus untainted by neocolonialism—resembled African American discourse about Haiti in the 1850s and Ethiopia in the mid-1930s, which helps explain T’Challa’s appeal to a post-Civil Rights cohort of black Americans.

The rebooted Black Panther series engages with this shared history in important ways. Under the guidance of editor-in-chief Axel Alonso, Marvel has successfully launched a number of books featuring underrepresented characters over the last several years, including an Afro-Latino Spider-Man, a female Thor, and a Pakistani-American Ms. Marvel. Indeed, prior to Black Panther’s record-breaking debut in early April—the first issue sold through a 350,000 initial print run and has gone into a second printing—Ms. Marvel was Marvel’s top-selling comic. It speaks to the cultural capital of the comic industry in general and Marvel in particular that Coates, perhaps the most prominent contemporary writer on race and its role in American history, was interested in working for the company.



Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man, but it makes sense that Black Panther is Coates’s first foray into comics; his father was once the chairman of the Maryland chapter of the Black Panther Party. And as a lifelong fan of Marvel comics, Coates is as well-versed in its fictive history as he is in America’s bloody past. Working with established superheroes places particular demands on a writer, as it involves two kinds of collaboration: An author works with an illustrator to tell a story, but the author must also build upon what earlier creative teams have established about the character. In this sense, writing a comic about a long-standing protagonist like the Black Panther—or Batman or Spider-Man—involves reconfiguring story lines written by legends like Stan Lee or Jack Kirby, as well as by less-heralded creators, into a new narrative.

There are two ways for a writer to do this. You could bring to the surface the essential traits of your character in a way that allows readers to experience these familiar qualities anew, as Frank Miller did for Batman with The Dark Knight Returns (1986) and Batman: Year One (1987), and Grant Morrison achieved with All-Star Superman (2008). The other approach is more subtle: Reread your character’s archive, gently realign his portrayal by attending to heretofore overlooked elements, and simultaneously create new supporting characters who facilitate the new direction. Alan Moore pioneered this approach with his run on Saga of the Swamp Thing from 1984-87, and Matt Fraction successfully reinvigorated the characters Iron Fist (2006-09) and Hawkeye (2012-15) using this method. Though the writer changes the character’s canon, the new iteration, if successful, supersedes the old while opening new avenues for storytelling. Coates takes the latter, more challenging approach and, based on my reading of the premiere issue along with the scripts of the first four issues, his Black Panther series succeeds wonderfully.

Coates renders the Black Panther as a reluctant king at the outset of “A Nation Under Our Feet,” which is a dramatic change. Comic fans have always accepted T’Challa’s serial absences from Wakanda as a consequence of the narrative logic of the Marvel universe, which locates all its heroes in and around New York City. An earlier Black Panther series, for example, opens with T’Challa arriving in New York alongside the Wakandan U.N. delegation, but then maneuvers him to Brooklyn, where he lives in a tenement and tussles with drug dealers who are using a Wakandan foundation to launder their profits. Despite these occurrences, earlier writers insisted that the Black Panther took his responsibilities as sovereign seriously.



Coates, on the other hand, reads that narrative as a sign of T’Challa’s reluctance to accept the responsibilities of the crown, and builds his characterization around it. Considering Coates’s assessment of Queen Nzinga, a seventeenth-century ruler of present-day Angola, in his last book—he identified most with her adviser, “who’d been broken down into a chair so that a queen … could sit”—it is unsurprising that he would chafe at writing a character who uncritically accepts his suitability to rule a nation. But Coates does more than simply reveal T’Challa’s self-doubt. In a recent New York Times discussion of the comic, he approaches the question of Wakandan governance from a different angle, wondering why Wakanda’s “educated population” would “even accept a monarchy.” The initial chapters of Coates’s Black Panther suggest democratic reform is in the offing, a radical change to the Wakandan status quo that allows Coates to interrogate the republican tradition Western readers often take for granted. In past iterations of Black Panther, those who worked to undermine dynastic rule were ultimately revealed to be either usurpers who craved the power of the throne for themselves, pawns controlled by Western powers seeking to undermine the only truly independent African nation so that they might exploit its natural resources, or both, which positioned the benevolent Wakandan monarchy as the foil for neoliberal entanglements.



While some elements of this international intrigue remain in “A Nation Under Our Feet,” Coates legitimizes at least some of the voices decrying monarchical rule. Indeed, perhaps Coates’s most intriguing new character, Zenzi, throws Wakanda into crisis by bringing the citizenry’s conflicted feelings toward T’Challa to the fore. She promises to be a formidable political foe, though the narrative hints she might evolve into an ally, depending on how the “Wakandan Spring” develops.

If superhero comics—with the notable exception of Chris Claremont’s 17-year run on X-Men—have traditionally devoted themselves to presenting the stories of heroic men, Coates works to correct this imbalance. Aside from Black Panther’s titular character, Coates allots most of his attention to female protagonists: the aforementioned Zenzi; T’Challa’s stepmother and regent, Ramonda; and Ayo and Aneka, members of the elite, all-woman Dora Milaje, which functions as Wakanda’s secret service. Coates’s Ramonda works to balance her role as trusted adviser to the king with her own instincts as a politician and her maternal concern for her son.

Ayo and Aneka are both soldiers and lovers, which violates the tradition that demands the Dora Milaje remain chaste while in the service of the Black Panther. Their relationship allows Coates to reveal the gendered violence and subordination present in even the most enlightened nation—the couple flee the palace to escape royal censure—but also frees him to address problems the patriarchal royal family has overlooked. Even in Wakanda, women’s problems receive less attention from the state. Within four issues, Coates establishes each of these women as complex characters with distinct motivations, even as he hints at the reintroduction of another important female character, T’Challa’s sister Zuri. While Zuri died protecting Wakanda in T’Challa’s absence, loyal comic readers know that death is rarely permanent.

The author shows a lapse in his research concerning Shuri.

One of the most persistent critiques of Between the World and Me, Coates’s most recent book, was that it paid insufficient attention to the ways that black women confront racial violence. His work here suggests he’s taken this critique to heart. (Coates even recently posted on his blog at The Atlantic about his enthusiasm for crafting the “feminists of Wakanda.”) Given the dearth of black women in comics—X-Men’s Storm remains the most prominent black woman in the medium, decades after her debut—Coates’s interest in female subjectivity is a most welcome change.

A.Curry will surely appreciate this.

Coates’s narrative contains a number of moving parts, which may make for tough sledding for those unfamiliar with comics as he works to set the stage; the whirl of characters can become bewildering. Issues 3 and 4 are more measured, and demonstrate Coates’s increasing command of the form. Coates has committed to writing Black Panther for the next few years, and watching a son of the Black Panther Party take the Black Panther to new heights promises to be a thrilling experience. Given the confluence of events—the last year of the Obama presidency, the ongoing Black Lives Matter protest movement, the fiftieth anniversary of the character—one expects we’ll never see a moment like this again. Pay attention to Ta-Nehisi Coates’s Black Panther. History will either mark it as an interesting detour in an important career, or herald it as a new peak for comics.

Jonathan W. Gray is an Associate Professor of English at John Jay College—CUNY and editor of The Journal of Comics and Culture.

Full unedited article here
https://newrepublic.com/article/132972/son-black-panther



GREAT ARTICLE TURE.

it is disheartening a bit for myself and I'm sure others that Coates initially was interested in Spidey and not BP...hard to believe someone with his background wasn't excited at first about the prospect of working on T'Challa and Wakanda.

As for the part "I surely will appreciate"...lol...the writer of this piece shows that Coates maybe had some motivation into writing a tale that had a focus on womanist/black feminist issues through Coates himself being criticized for not addressing how black women face racism and sexism in his initial essay work...and trying to bring about the "feminists of Wakanda" through characters like Zenzi (who I'm seeing as a radical Angela Davis archetype) and Aneka and Ayo (who represent a somewhat ignored demographic among black women and an opportunity to question the practice of the Dora...something Priest himself did in his run) provides an opportunity for that.  Though it can still be seen as questionable HOW he is going about it.

the part about Storm still being the most prominent black female character in comics "decades after her debut" and the dearth of black women in comics prominently featured that the writer spoke on underscores my own point I made earlier on in convo with EmperorJones regarding this.  And even the black women characters that do exist when featured rarely if ever focus on women/black womanist issues.

People have spoken about Shuri before (can't believe the author misspelled her name) regarding how she is a strong female character, which she is, but having read some of her appearances before I don't recall her having dealt with these issues that could exist, but in a different way, of course, outside America. I could be wrong.  (The concept of the Dora Milaje, for instance, which I like, alone would raise an eyebrow to quite a few women overall, let alone feminist types)  It would likely be questionable to those looking for a woman character whom also is "woman-centered" that Shuri, for various reasons, would provide this.  It will be interesting to see how Coates handles her when he eventually brings her back.


Still wary of HOW Coates is going about the subjects he seems to be tackling within the backdrop of a place like Wakanda...the HOW can be quite misplaced.  But tackling the subjects themselves is an overall interesting thing to see.


The bold reminded me of Shuri's speech during the Power arc.





Obviously, a big part of that speech is an attempt to unify Wakandans after a major attack on their soil...but could it be that Shuri views herself in such a manner? "Being Wakandan > all?"

Since a very young age, Shuri been coveting the Black Panther mantle, a mantle that requires a tremendous amount of sacrifice, physically, mentally, emotionally, and perhaps in terms of identity. The mantle requires one to put the needs of Wakanda and its people over everything. Including one's personal desires.

Shuri's obviously aware that she is a woman (she mentioned so in the speech), and I wouldn't be surprised if throughout her reign several people would go at her in part (or perhaps in large part) because she's a woman. Especially from non-Wakandans.

However, considering that she's been training for a highly-challenging position for so long and eventually lead a historically warrior nation via a position that--exceptions aside--is usually fielded by men, I do wonder how far she would go in terms of women's issues, outside of perhaps an egalitarian and meritocratic perspective. Perhaps her personal experience would entice her to go far, feeling that women don't get enough of a fair shake in Wakanda. Perhaps her experience make her do otherwise, make tweeks here and there in Wakandan society, but not more, feeling that Wakanda, overall, have given women somewhat of a fair shake (she isn't the first female Black Panther, afterall). Or perhaps it is a blend of both: Wakanda is well ahead of its peers across the world, but more should be done.

Either way, I see it as a story-arc opportunity. One I would be very interested in reading under the right writer.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 03:35:44 pm by The Wakandan »

Offline The Evasive 1

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Funny. A lot of us wanted an authentic black voice to write Panther and this is what we get. Meanwhile, Panther's best portrayal since forever is being written in Ultimates by Ewing, who has shown to respect Panther more in 5 issues in a shared team book than Panther can get in his solo.

This book is horrible. Normally I judge a book by its third or forth issue, but two issues in... How high the mighty Wakanda has fallen. This is worse than any flood could have ever done to the golden city. Normally, I'm a fan who will wait for a good pay off for a story to conclude, but after seeing Cap 3 already 4 times this past week (let's be honest, while the Cap movies are my favorite Marvel movies, this was mostly for the Panther) and wanting more of a Panther fix, this was a damn near slap in the face.

I dunno. I just.... I dunno. I'm a little numb to this book right now. I'm going to go ahead and pull the this run like I normally would, but I don't think I'll read any more until this arc is finished. Read it all in one setting. Then judge it. But as of now, coming behind Captain America 3, this series is the worst thing ever to expose new readers to the character and his mythos.

agreed, and yes Ultimates is the T'challa I'm familiar with
Yeah, I am getting this feeling of "Oh,no. Not again" with the flow of Coates writing this book. I had such high hopes with a black writer coming on to write this comic, but the truth is he was probably never really a fan of BP, especially if he thought Hickman was great. If he wanted to do Spiderman, it means he was all good what the writers after Hudlin and McDuffie had done. I've been on other forums on the internet and there is a alot of new fans BP has gotten based on Civil War movie.  In fact, I was surprised how many black comic fans didn't know much about T'Challa at all. Alot of the old fans who have followed BP have already been in some debates with folks who are suddenly claiming htey've been with BP from Day 1 but with comments show they don't know much more than what they got off Wikipedia or nothing true to the character at all. The new fans need a real intro of the great character that many of us have followed for years. If this is there introduction to BP, I am frightened. I can see people being turned off and others accepting what is written even if Coates tarnishes the image of T"Challa. I'm trying to give Coates the benefit of the doubt, but if an improvement isn't seen by issue #4 then I won't bee collecting this book and hope that sales will drop enough that Coates or Marvel gets the message and gets a new writer. I guess it proves that just because you get a person of color to write a POC character story doesn't mean they will do that character justice. All your skinfolk are not necessarily your kinfolk.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 12:52:07 pm by The Evasive 1 »

Offline Ture

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Welcome to the HEF The Wakandan, those were excellent post and I look forward to conversing with you on all things Black Panther.

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Offline A.Curry

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Funny. A lot of us wanted an authentic black voice to write Panther and this is what we get. Meanwhile, Panther's best portrayal since forever is being written in Ultimates by Ewing, who has shown to respect Panther more in 5 issues in a shared team book than Panther can get in his solo.

This book is horrible. Normally I judge a book by its third or forth issue, but two issues in... How high the mighty Wakanda has fallen. This is worse than any flood could have ever done to the golden city. Normally, I'm a fan who will wait for a good pay off for a story to conclude, but after seeing Cap 3 already 4 times this past week (let's be honest, while the Cap movies are my favorite Marvel movies, this was mostly for the Panther) and wanting more of a Panther fix, this was a damn near slap in the face.

I dunno. I just.... I dunno. I'm a little numb to this book right now. I'm going to go ahead and pull the this run like I normally would, but I don't think I'll read any more until this arc is finished. Read it all in one setting. Then judge it. But as of now, coming behind Captain America 3, this series is the worst thing ever to expose new readers to the character and his mythos.

agreed, and yes Ultimates is the T'challa I'm familiar with
Yeah, I am getting this feeling of "Oh,no. Not again" with the flow of Coates writing this book. I had such high hopes with a black writer coming on to write this comic, but the truth is he was probably never really a fan of BP, especially if he thought Hickman was great. If he wanted to do Spiderman, it means he was all good what the writers after Hudlin and McDuffie had done. I've been on other forums on the internet and there is a alot of new fans BP has gotten based on Civil War movie.  In fact, I was surprised how many black comic fans didn't know much about T'Challa at all. Alot of the old fans who have followed BP have already been in some debates with folks who are suddenly claiming htey've been with BP from Day 1 but with comments show they don't know much more than what they got off Wikipedia or nothing true to the character at all. The new fans need a real intro of the great character that many of us have followed for years. If this is there introduction to BP, I am frightened. I can see people being turned off and others accepting what is written even if Coates tarnishes the image of T"Challa. I'm trying to give Coates the benefit of the doubt, but if an improvement isn't seen by issue #4 then I won't bee collecting this book and hope that sales will drop enough that Coates or Marvel gets the message and gets a new writer. I guess it proves that just because you get a person of color to write a POC character story doesn't mean they will do that character justice. All your skinfolk are not necessarily your kinfolk.

Well stated post...dont know if the "skinfolk arent kinfolk" quote is fair...I think Coates for better or worse is trying to tell a specific story coming off of what he sees as a post traumatic Wakanda, and though I DEFINITELY have some issues with how he's going about it I dont think his goal is to show disrespect to T'Challa or not show him justice.  Dude has spent his career writing about issues regarding racism against black people in america and so forth...a POC writer isnt always going to take the route all or even most black people or even most black fans of this character agree on...and though I dont think he's trying to show disrespect to the character I can see in a few indirect ways he (and maybe Stelfreeze as the artist too, who im sure is given free reign to draw what he wants) may not even be thinking of. 

Overall, with only 2 issues in, it would have to be explained hopefully at some point how all of this is going on in Wakanda without T'Challa knowing about it or doing anything about it...I agree that is making him look somewhat blind and ineffective.  And the two Dora having to be on the run with one sentenced to death for the crime of killing a mysoginist and possible pedophile seems forced and not overkill.

SPOILERS

the scene with the big soldier, for instance, that threw him down...I can almost guarantee that Coates didnt write that scene but just the inner monologue (which was an excellently written) that was going on during it...I bet he just put in "Tchalla fights to get past soldiers" and Stelfreeze, who I also think invented and is a fan of that "magnetic push" thing, likes drawing it.  I'd like to think that that soldier was superhuman with augments in strength...which is something that shouldve been shown through TChalla's inner monologue while fighting him and being surprised by him...cause a normal human even that size should be no match for Panther.  But again, im betting its something Stelfreeze just drew up for a fight scene that Coates didnt even write in of notice.  And with him being a novice probably didnt even think to question Stelfreeze...whom I admit should know better himself.

It will be interesting to see I admit how new fans especially are going to react to this after a few more issues after coming off the movie...and how sales will be affected...some fans black and white have been drawn to it Im sure just because Coates name is on it..but those fans are coming in without the same expectations of Wakanda and Panther that many old fans have...along with no knowledge of whats come before.  So to them this may all "make sense" and is acceptable and may even be seen as an great read...which in some cases it is but to one who has been a fan of Panther before is highly questionable.

Either way, I think it will be interesting to see where he's going with this, though I agree he needs to show TChalla and Wakanda in a better light...and soon. 


Offline A.Curry

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Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont

Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?

Excellent points. I think its a combo of things. ther have been people of less moral fiber bringing things into Wakanda, such as back in the day the drug traffiking, and though what we are seeing now is new, and more akin to real world issue going on now, I agree now may not have been the best time to showcase this in Wakanda. It was mentioned over at the CBR forums but posters there were talking about how the story could have a similar premise but instead of all this stuff going on in Wakanda, have it happening in a neighboring nation and the issue is whether or not Wakanda should get involved, with the Dora's doing excatly what they are doing right now, but it happening to Nigandan bandits, and leaders in power, rather then Wakanda, and T'Challa trying to find the best course of action while not trying to make it seem like Wakanda is going rogue to the UN or other nations. But of course thats not what we have but it could of been a good alternative.

Also:
I think they are apart of the People. I think the point is that Tetu wants to first have Zenzi fan the flames in the hearts of the Wakandan people, then when they are going wild and violence and trafficking rings and such "The People" are going to come in as saviors (while also probably being the ones behind the scenes assisting this Jambazi Tribe with their traffiking ring), providing a safe haven for the citizens ushering them away from the bandits as a way of putting themselves in a better light. So when T'Challa comes in and starts smashing faces, they don't see it as their king coming to their aid, but as a tyrant crushing their hope of protection from the violence and rape from the Bandits and Jambazi.

Thats my theory. I think they are Tetu's men Especially since Zenzi was there. I wouldn't think she would go somewhere without some protection despite her power



Ezyo,

I actually mentioned in a post a few pages ago that this premise would have been better received and would have had more potential along with making more sense if it was happening outside of Wakanda's borders in other far more corrupt nations where these things actually do occur...Coates could have done it that way and addressed everything from gender politics to rape camps while also going into a socio-political story involving how these things came about through colonization amongst other tragedies without putting the blemish of this on Wakanda...it would have been cool even if Aneka and Ayo were the ones leading charges against these things outside of Wakanda and having caused cross-border crimes were bought forward to Tchalla to argue why Wakanda should get involved in dealing with these horrors in Africa.  They could still even be involved with each other which would also still give light to black LGBT characterization while also creating another culturally involved conflict since they are supposed to be committed to the king (would be quite a scandal and still may be an upcoming one Coates already planned for) and not in love with each other.  Then Wakanda and Panther would have to deal with the conflict of getting involved in other copuntries issues on multiple fronts, with America and the Avengers getting involved eventually.

I agree about them being Tetu's men...but what if the Dora are secretly working with "the People" as well and what they are doing is all a part of an overall plan?  And perhaps they are unknowingly being used by Tetu and Zenzi themselves...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 10:42:55 am by A.Curry »

Offline A.Curry

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Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont

Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?


I'm one of those that feel, despite my somewhat negative feelings about the premise, that the premise has a lot of merit. Wakanda has faced a high amount of unprecedented events in its history, from infiltration (DoomWar), to biblical flood (AvX), to eventual destruction (Time Runs Out). Yes, T'Challa did bring everyone back, but it appears that enough people do remember what happened prior to their deaths. Thus, I can understand that there could be a large amount of people who could have negative feelings about the Wakandan government's inability to protect the country. A good amount of those people may even have negative feelings about T'Challa himself, depending on what they know about his actions during the Hickman run and perhaps his knack of being very involved with outsiders and events outside of Wakanda that don't involve Wakanda.

However, that currently doesn't explain how things went from apparent recovery to numerous corrupt--and lecherous--chieftains allowed to operate, as well had mischievous operations going on within Wakanda's borders. One could argue that perhaps these events have been going on prior to the Coates run. If so, that is a major red flag in the leadership of T'Challa, Shuri, and possibly T'Chaka and other previous panthers. One could also say it is a result of a mounting distrust for the Monarchy and something resembling anarchy has risen in some parts of Wakanda. If so, where's the royal family's reaction to this? Why isn't it clamping it down, rather than seemingly turning a blind eye to it?

Maybe there's something I've missed while reading, but it's as if we are currently have actions occur strictly for the sake of the plot, similar to how thing began unfolding during the Hickman run. I hope there are clear explanations for all this. More importantly, I would really like the royal family, and T'Challa in particular as King, to take a firm stance and decisive actions on panel against those situations.

hey Wakandan,

I absolutely think Coates has taken advantage of coming off of the overall destructive occurrences including the last and recent "Time Runs Out" storyline that involved yet another blow to Wakanda, to not only tell what he might see as an eventual and redemptive "from the ashes" story but to also address real life issues he obviously feels a desire to.  Thus yeah, he's adding in things strictly for the sake of the plot, but it arguably may be too much as some of this involving both Panther and Wakanda just wouldnt make sense even post trauma...and if sound explanations arent given soon its going to look worse...especially since the T'Challa and Wakanda I and others know WOULD  take a more than firm stance and actions in these situations immediately...which is one reason why its hard to see it existing in Wakanda in the first place.

I also think the premise has merit, but would be more acceptable if it was happening outside of Wakanda and its king chose to get involved after having been convinced by his passionate Doras.


I absolutely dont think these things were happening prior to Coates run, its highly suggested I think that these are occurences that grew very recently over Wakanda becoming highly destabilized especially after the Black Order destroyed it along with other hits its taken.  Either way though, it does and will look bad for Panther and the ruling family if these things have been going on for even a short while without them knowing about it.

I was actually disturbed by Ramonda having been so dispassionate and unfair when sentencing the one Dora to death over killing a cheiftain that was taking advantage of women in his village.  That in particular made no sense to me.

Offline Ezyo

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Ezyo,

I actually mentioned in a post a few pages ago that this premise would have been better received and would have had more potential along with making more sense if it was happening outside of Wakanda's borders in other far more corrupt nations where these things actually do occur...Coates could have done it that way and addressed everything from gender politics to rape camps while also going into a socio-political story involving how these things came about through colonization amongst other tragedies without putting the blemish of this on Wakanda...it would have been cool even if Aneka and Ayo were the ones leading charges against these things outside of Wakanda and having caused cross-border crimes were bought forward to Tchalla to argue why Wakanda should get involved in dealing with these horrors in Africa.  They could still even be involved with each other which would also still give light to black LGBT characterization while also creating another culturally involved conflict since they are supposed to be committed to the king (would be quite a scandal and still may be an upcoming one Coates already planned for) and not in love with each other.  Then Wakanda and Panther would have to deal with the conflict of getting involved in other copuntries issues on multiple fronts, with America and the Avengers getting involved eventually.

I agree about them being Tetu's men...but what if the Dora are secretly working with "the People" as well and what they are doing is all a part of an overall plan?  And perhaps they are unknowingly being used by Tetu and Zenzi themselves... A.Curry

I thought that too, What if the Dora's were working with Tetu and Zenzi, Maybe not intentionally but being manipulated by them without knowing. It hard to say this early on but that is what im leaning to. Also in regards to that scene with the bigger guy (We call him Goon Slam Gary on the CBR) i do think that he is superhuman because those look like Tetu's men and i think that scene was a set up. But also there was a poster on the cbr that made a interesting point. Reread that scene and pay attention to his inner monologue about the legend and mystique of a king, and only showing so much might, It coul be possible to interpret that fight scene in that manner, making the Goon think that he has T'Challa in a bad postion until he knocks him away 100+ feet through a wall. I dunno how correct it is but it was something to think about. As for this arc taking place in a different country i think it could wok nicely as well to be honest. But i can also see why Coates maybe feels the need to want to address the issues left in the wakes of Mayberry, AvX and Hickman. I just hope that he realizes that he needs to show T'Challa having small victories even before he starts coming on the rise. Having loss after loss and then one victory in the end can feel unsatisfactory.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 01:39:54 pm by Ezyo »

Offline The Wakandan

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Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont

Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?


I'm one of those that feel, despite my somewhat negative feelings about the premise, that the premise has a lot of merit. Wakanda has faced a high amount of unprecedented events in its history, from infiltration (DoomWar), to biblical flood (AvX), to eventual destruction (Time Runs Out). Yes, T'Challa did bring everyone back, but it appears that enough people do remember what happened prior to their deaths. Thus, I can understand that there could be a large amount of people who could have negative feelings about the Wakandan government's inability to protect the country. A good amount of those people may even have negative feelings about T'Challa himself, depending on what they know about his actions during the Hickman run and perhaps his knack of being very involved with outsiders and events outside of Wakanda that don't involve Wakanda.

However, that currently doesn't explain how things went from apparent recovery to numerous corrupt--and lecherous--chieftains allowed to operate, as well had mischievous operations going on within Wakanda's borders. One could argue that perhaps these events have been going on prior to the Coates run. If so, that is a major red flag in the leadership of T'Challa, Shuri, and possibly T'Chaka and other previous panthers. One could also say it is a result of a mounting distrust for the Monarchy and something resembling anarchy has risen in some parts of Wakanda. If so, where's the royal family's reaction to this? Why isn't it clamping it down, rather than seemingly turning a blind eye to it?

Maybe there's something I've missed while reading, but it's as if we are currently have actions occur strictly for the sake of the plot, similar to how thing began unfolding during the Hickman run. I hope there are clear explanations for all this. More importantly, I would really like the royal family, and T'Challa in particular as King, to take a firm stance and decisive actions on panel against those situations.

hey Wakandan,

I absolutely think Coates has taken advantage of coming off of the overall destructive occurrences including the last and recent "Time Runs Out" storyline that involved yet another blow to Wakanda, to not only tell what he might see as an eventual and redemptive "from the ashes" story but to also address real life issues he obviously feels a desire to.  Thus yeah, he's adding in things strictly for the sake of the plot, but it arguably may be too much as some of this involving both Panther and Wakanda just wouldnt make sense even post trauma...and if sound explanations arent given soon its going to look worse...especially since the T'Challa and Wakanda I and others know WOULD  take a more than firm stance and actions in these situations immediately...which is one reason why its hard to see it existing in Wakanda in the first place.

I also think the premise has merit, but would be more acceptable if it was happening outside of Wakanda and its king chose to get involved after having been convinced by his passionate Doras.


I absolutely dont think these things were happening prior to Coates run, its highly suggested I think that these are occurences that grew very recently over Wakanda becoming highly destabilized especially after the Black Order destroyed it along with other hits its taken.  Either way though, it does and will look bad for Panther and the ruling family if these things have been going on for even a short while without them knowing about it.

I was actually disturbed by Ramonda having been so dispassionate and unfair when sentencing the one Dora to death over killing a cheiftain that was taking advantage of women in his village.  That in particular made no sense to me.

That part disturbed me a bit as well. That and T'Challa's reaction to Ramonda telling her what happened. Aneka and T'Challa had a good working relationship back in the Mayberry run, so it was rather surprising that T'Challa didn't react at all to her about to be put to death.

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Okay. Everyone here knows that your Supreme Illuminati is definitely the guy to give a writer a fair shake, and definitely the guy to wait more than two issues to even begin to cast a prognostication regarding his favorite Marvel masked man, TChalla the Black Panther.

But. My reaction to Coates' first two books, along with my distinct dislike of his position was so intense, that I was taken aback.



I intensely dislike anything regarding Coa tes doubting that TChalla would refuse to take sexual liberties with the completely and entirely willing army of Dora Milaje, because he doesn't know any man who would refuse such a thing.

TChalla would did and does refuse. Because he's TChalla. Seems like he doesn't know a vital facet of TChalla's character. But...he seems to nail the good things about TChalla when he [ Coates ] writes him. That's a jarring dichotomy.

There are many other mixtures of illogical, seemingly contradictory, and repulsive things that really seem to emphasize a complete break with, misunderstanding of, ignorance of, or disconnection with vital aspects of the character of the people of Wakanda [ like the incredibly disgusting stupidity of the Rape Camp, which goes totally totally totally totally against the primary characterization of the Wakandans themselves as given by Priest and RH, like the mindblowingly STUPID decision to drop THIS kind of book with THIS kind of story right after BP absolutely smashes in Captain America:Civil War, and fans from the movie trickle into the LCS looking for MARVEL CINEMATIC TCHALLA THE BADASS and see THIS RAPE CAMP GUY GARBAGE RIGHT HERE; like...where da hell is Zawaviri? Mendinao? The whole crew of The Hatut Zeraze and Hunter? Where are the rest of the Dora Milaje? And where's the whole freakin Panther Order? One "Bast Let's Drop That Bomb On Em" chant from any of the above, and Zenzi and her crew are termite dung. Where are The Kifalme Mushajaa aka THE BLACK MUSKETEERS? Where are the Wakandan hypertech hyperproficient soldiers manning all that nigh invincible inner defenses stuff? TChalla managed to reverse nearly 100% of the destruction that Thanos caused AND saved Wakanda's future in the same issue that launched him to THE ULTIMATES. Where are the people and the Wakanda that he saved? TChalla would not save...then create...Rape Camp Wakanda. No matter how badly he was off his game because Shuri is in a "half life" existence. TChalla would never abide such a thing, and neither would Shuri [ which in Swahili is frequently spelled/pronounced ZURI, and that's where the "misspelling" of her name might have originated ]. TChalla would have destroyed any version of Rape Camp Wakanda as the vision of racist South African judges it is https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/12/rape-is-black-peoples-pastime-says-white-south-african-judge-in-facebook-rant/

TChalla would save the REAL Wakanda.   The "Let's Send Our Younguns On A Field Trip To A Different Part Of The Galaxy For Their Rite of Passage" [ Hickman New Avengers #1 ] Wakanda.

I mean, Ewing IS ABSOLUTELY BEASTING IT WITH THE REAL TCHALLA IN HIS BOOK.

 This dude right here? That Coates is writing? We know him...but we don't know that Wakanda.

In fact? THAT AIN'T WAKANDA. A rape camp in Wakanda is about as plausibe as there being a Rape Camp in Asgard or Mount Olympus. Wait. Actually. Given the history of the Vikings and Greeks? A Rape Camp is LESS LIKELY TO EXIST IN WAKANDA than in those other places. You know what else I don't like? Man I don't like...well, you get the idea
   

...Like I said earlier. This stuff above caused me to react so negatively...

...that it actually pushed me to seeing something potentially positive that I should have seen right away.

Remember one of our [ in general ] favorite writers, Priest? Remember how Priest would set TChalla in a horrible position [ Priest had Kraven actually "defeat" TChalla hand to hand within a handful of issues of the CJP debut Panther book ], and remember how we Black folk nearly vomited from the "Oh NO! Not AGAIN!" vibes we got?

Turns out that TChalla had everything wired from the jump. AND stomped Kraven and fronted on The Avengers after revealing the fact that he joined them just to ensure that they're not a threat to Wakanda.

Well. Who helped TChalla do that?

Queen Mother Ramonda. The same Queen Mother who pronounced the Death Sentence that sent Aneka and Ayo to kill the Rape Camp guys. Glaringly without any Dora or Wakandan troops for support. Sorta kinda draws the attention of  Zenzi et al, right? And Aneka then rocks the outline of a plan connecting many dissenting elements within Wakanda's borders. Sorta kinda a good way to oppose emotion manipulators or get them to join with your or vice versa, right?

Wait. Isn't this the same Queen Mother Ramonda who helped TChalla cook up a plan wherein she aids the evil Achebe, and she and Achebe become co-Regents of Wakanda? The same Queen Mother Ramonda that insisted that TChalla marry Storm? The same Queen Mother Ramonda that couldn't see why TChalla just didn't hit Killmonger with a Disintegrator Cannon fired from space, and be done with the nonsense?

I'm sorta kinda thinkin that THAT QMR would be down to stage a faux fall out with her and Aneka, in order to position Aneka and Ayo to operate with and/or near the insurgents without raising their suspicions too too much. Especially if Wakanda truly truly IS weakened, and somehow or other TChalla truly DIDN'T know who these Jambari or whatever were [ something that I just can't buy, knowing what I know about TChalla; but I can accept given the level of analry that stained Wakanda post RH and pre-Ewing ].

And didn't Coates say that he listed the depictions of BP from CJP and Hickman as his guide poles, essentially? The QMR Queen to Rook Move is exactly the kind of thing that CJP would have TChalla do.

I think...I hope...I'm seeing the bedrock being built for truly formidable opponents asking truly important questions and acting in ways that aren't exactly the clearly evil archetypal bad guys role. These opponents are intelligent, passionate, dedicated, and in many ways they are not wrong...but also, not right. I have a faint intuition that this stuff we're seeing is severe, and supposed to be both damaging to and not easy for TChalla. That makes his comeback triumph all the more powerful and satisfying.

Oh Yeah...that Wakandan University scene ? Would have liked to see them quote exclusively Wakandan philosophers. Why would they quote Outworlder philosophers? The rest of the world is a hovel compared to Wakanda...even the current Wakanda.

And is it me? Or does there seem to be a psychotic dichotomy going on here? TChalla himself seems capable and competent, but Wakanda seems to be channeling its inner Rwanda. Something directly at variance with even the CONCEPT of The Golden City and the spiritual and cultural strength of Wakanda the people and the nation from which it sprang. Wakanda doesn't do rape camps or crack or any of those other stupidities. Not because the people of Wakanda are without flaw...I mean, they rock with Killmonger, Somber, etc etc...but because the people...having faced and triumphed over at least ten millenia of the worst that the Earth and those far too nosy aliens have to offer... they have grown as people to a point where they are simply built of the best stuff that humanity has to offer. Wakanda is what  Paradise Island x Xanadu x Shangri-La isn't even grown enough and fly enough to wish it was.

TChalla is and SHOULD BE getting excoriated by his inner demons about Shuri. Good writing, good dialogue.  And I am the first one amongst all of us to energetically defend the fact that Wakanda is a study in contrasts which achieves its incredible equilibrium through the harmonious full power projection of every facet of each of its ethnic groups resulting in a melange, a mosaic, a arabesque that simply cannot be created elsewhere because the indispensable ingredients are absent. Those who utterly reject hypertech leaving cheek by jowl harmoniously with Iron Men. But man. This Rape Camp thing is just not a rational option, when you truly grasp who the Wakandans are and what Wakanda IS...

...hey.

What if Coates is continuing to give props to Wakanda, women, humanity, humane behavior and most especially to Black women by also making sure that TChalla can't solve this thing without Shuri? TChalla figures out how to save Shuri, and together they smash bad guys to gluteal particulates and return Wakanda to its dual Panther rulership? That would also underscore [ plot wise ] the absolutely vital and important fact that Black women fight race AND womanist issues. And we should see them LITERALLY FIGHT against the creators and perpetuators of this antiwoman, antiBlack,and anti-Black woman attacks and policies.

And the above would fit neatly with any Priest-esque deep plotting twists that TChalla pulls out of his cowl and starts showing in the next 3-4 issues. Issues 3,6,9 and 12 or 4,8, and 12 are absolutely essential in most 12 issue arcs. Let's see what TChalla pulls out of his cowl next month and the month after.

I repeat, though: if TChalla and Carol hook up? I'm out. If TChalla and other ole girl lookin like Hunter's little sister hook up? I'm out.

And. Switching gears to The Ultimates, right quick?

Man. That wasn't no Royal Chair that either TChalla OR Carol were sitting in. TChalla wouldn't let Carol sit in Ororo's chair, and Carol wouldn't let Carol sit in Ororo's chair.

THESE are some of the Royal Chair pix






Questions?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 04:46:20 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Offline supreme illuminati

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When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

I completely agree. Which underscores the radical departure in certain key elements that Coates has chosen to flavor his opening run on BP with.

I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

(And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.




"Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?"


It most absolutely, positively does. In fact, there is a bit of psychotic dichotomy in positing a hypercapable, honorable, brilliant King who springs forth and embodies all that is desirable from the hypercapable people representing the very best that humanity has to offer...and juxtaposing said King and people with the advent and maintenance of Rape Camps crafted by these same people. For any reason.

I read somewhere that Coates said that the fighting in his comic book would be the only weak points, if there were weak points at all. He--like Priest--doesn't seem to see the need for a Warrior King to do what warriors do. I am regularly stunned by such assertions.

The more magnificent you are. The more intelligent. The richer you are. The more you embody all things desirable and even undesirable? The more you have to be able to fight. Because the ramifications of your excellence and perfidiousness will cause hate to be slung your way. And that in turn leads to aggression and war. And not just for humans. Ask The Skrulls and The Shi'Ar. Even The Builders and The Ivory Kings. Even The Beyonders.

If The Beyonders have developed compelling reasons to scrap? Yeah...I'm thinking TChalla being the leading light of Wakanda [ and the rest of the world being terrified of and low key hatin on Wakanda, and lusting after everything Wakandan in the most major ways ] will have his days both inside and outside of Wakanda where internal and external threats will rise to the extent of not just fights but outright assassination attempts.

Are you trying to tell me with a straight face that The Hand and Gorgon would be thrilled that Wakanda exists? The only civilization older than and more powerful than themselves,with a for real God rockin with their civilization? A God that can and would beat down their Beast? Are you telling me that The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants or some such wouldn't go gonads to the wall to snare vital material wealth from Wakanda? Internal threats to Wakanda are even more zealous in their dedication because everyone knows that defiance of the Wakandan throne=death. Even Priest had TChalla say that should a man of Wakanda dare to raise his hand to the Dora Milaje, that man would be resting with his ancestors.

Which, btw, completely makes the death sentence commanded by QMR for Aneka against the raping defilers of a Rape Camp even more unacceptable and implausible.

Soooo...yeah. There is a lot about the core characterization of Wakanda, her people, the Royals, the history/canon of Wakanda, etc that I find to be very questionable roundaboutthesepartsupinhere. I'll see where Coates takes this when we hit issue 6. I'm thinking that much of this stuff would have been further and more satisfyingly illuminated upon by then.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 05:25:00 pm by supreme illuminati »
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
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Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw