Author Topic: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther  (Read 616367 times)

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1245 on: September 13, 2016, 12:09:38 pm »
need to switch the rock to a chair :)

Offline The Evasive 1

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1246 on: September 13, 2016, 12:24:41 pm »
I really thought I was being to judgmental when I first starting reading Coates-Panther and was distressed. Because there was some push back on my statements of disapproval, I thought maybe I should wait and give it a chance. I kept saying, "I'll give it just ONE more issue!" and I still tried to have some hope Coates would maybe read some of the tweets or comments from actual long time BP fans and consider what his legacy would be in writing a iconic black character in comics and the hopes those fans who stuck by the character through the "dark times" the character endured over the last couple of years. Coates, the only black writer of the character right now, is the most detrimental to it. I never thought I'd say it, but it's true. And he probably doesn't even see it that way which is a travesty. Like someone said earlier, you have too many new fans and folks who never knew what the character was about drinking Coates Cool-aid just because there is a black writer writing a black character. That's enough for them. You can see it in the many posts on Facebook and other social media pages that pop up where folks don't have clue of the BP mythos.  You can go in there and try to correct falsehoods and erroneous beliefs and it's to no avail. Even if they did just start with Priest, at least that is ok if they at least read that entire run AND Hudlin's to have SOME perspective. But alas, there are folks who haven't even done that let alone read any of the earlier writers. I mean you still got people stuck on the T'Challa/Storm marriage when that ship has loooonnnnggg since past. And after every thing Storm has done just before and after the divorce, why would a fan really want to see them back together anyway?

Yes, it is good that the character is getting such exposure in the MU now that its taking him to "A-List"status. But what type of A-lister will he be when it's all said and done? The writers of BP in guest appearances and other team books are doing a better portrayal of the character. Makes since, since unlike Coates, they are actual comic story writers and know enough of the history of the character. Some are actually meant what they said when they said they were fans of the character. It' looks like our hopes lie with them now to keep that T'Challa alive until somebody else, a real fan of BP , eventually replaces Coates. We can only hope it's sooner than later.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 12:28:31 pm by The Evasive 1 »

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1247 on: September 13, 2016, 12:47:27 pm »
need to switch the rock to a chair :)


Ha ha of course T'challa be like:


Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1248 on: September 13, 2016, 02:01:12 pm »
I really thought I was being to judgmental when I first starting reading Coates-Panther and was distressed. Because there was some push back on my statements of disapproval, I thought maybe I should wait and give it a chance. I kept saying, "I'll give it just ONE more issue!" and I still tried to have some hope Coates would maybe read some of the tweets or comments from actual long time BP fans and consider what his legacy would be in writing a iconic black character in comics and the hopes those fans who stuck by the character through the "dark times" the character endured over the last couple of years. Coates, the only black writer of the character right now, is the most detrimental to it. I never thought I'd say it, but it's true. And he probably doesn't even see it that way which is a travesty. Like someone said earlier, you have too many new fans and folks who never knew what the character was about drinking Coates Cool-aid just because there is a black writer writing a black character. That's enough for them. You can see it in the many posts on Facebook and other social media pages that pop up where folks don't have clue of the BP mythos.  You can go in there and try to correct falsehoods and erroneous beliefs and it's to no avail. Even if they did just start with Priest, at least that is ok if they at least read that entire run AND Hudlin's to have SOME perspective. But alas, there are folks who haven't even done that let alone read any of the earlier writers. I mean you still got people stuck on the T'Challa/Storm marriage when that ship has loooonnnnggg since past. And after every thing Storm has done just before and after the divorce, why would a fan really want to see them back together anyway?

Yes, it is good that the character is getting such exposure in the MU now that its taking him to "A-List"status. But what type of A-lister will he be when it's all said and done? The writers of BP in guest appearances and other team books are doing a better portrayal of the character. Makes since, since unlike Coates, they are actual comic story writers and know enough of the history of the character. Some are actually meant what they said when they said they were fans of the character. It' looks like our hopes lie with them now to keep that T'Challa alive until somebody else, a real fan of BP , eventually replaces Coates. We can only hope it's sooner than later.

[hipster time]

i've stopped arguing with the newbs or the old time fans that somehow read every run but don't remember sh*t.

I post a scan that shows them they are wrong and move on. Isn't worth it.

/hipster

Online Emperorjones

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1249 on: September 13, 2016, 02:28:17 pm »
So what is "World of Wakanda" supposed to deal with?

stompin on T'challa's nuts

I think its going to go beyond stomping to straight testicular extraction.

Online Emperorjones

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1250 on: September 13, 2016, 02:37:25 pm »
I'm still wondering why anyone is suprised at what Coates has done to the BP mythos?

I said this was going to happen even before the first Coates penned BP issue dropped.

A lot of heads called me out for supposedly being a negative nancy.

What say you now?


I didn't call you that per se, but as one of the people who was cautiously optimistic about Coates when I heard he got the job, I am willing to admit I was wrong. I even bought a subscription to support Coates and the book. I've been hoping it would turn around, but I'm losing hope fast on that. I'll let the subscription run out and then I'll be done. And I'm not touching Gay's book; her hit job on Nate Parker (in the New York Times I believe) showed me what time it was where she was concerned.

Brothers EJ and Ezyo, I am so sorry to see your hope for BP dashed, angry too!  Repping T'Challa in a positive light in his own book should not be that hard, especially since that should be job #1.  Coates missed this, completely over-thinking the task at hand by conceiving of his grandiose plot to raise his personal beliefs and somehow, I suppose, circle back around and give T'Challa his due!?!  Coates BP has been a huge disappointment. Personally, I lost hope after issue #3, having read Coates' comments/thoughts and knowing that his entire first year run was already in the can.  Such a let down for all of us who've endured so much frustration with Marvel's representation of the character over the last several years.

Peace/No Peace,

Mont

Hey, thanks. I feel your pain as well. The cynical side of me wonders if Coates's intention was to build up T'Challa in the first place, at least in a way that you would a white character. I wonder if Coates's is using Panther to prove himself to some white liberals, black feminists, and some the black male bashers in the LGBT community, that he is onboard with how some of them think or depict black men as worthless. Or the chief purveyors of 'toxic masculinity'. So we see T'Challa unable to do anything, unable to prevent violence against women and children (we don't see much or I guess care much about any violence that might be happening to men), we see T'Challa fret, and then seek advice from some of the worst people in the world, and then in turn get played and framed by one of them.

The Lee-Kirby-Priest-Hudlin-Liss black power fantasy has now become a black feminist power fantasy, with the black man of course as the main cause of all Wakanda's (i.e. black people's) problems or an obstacle to overcoming them. I guess by the end of this somehow Coates will make T'Challa 'woke'. He might as well cut to the chase, kill off T'Challa, bring back Shuri as queen, or just make the Midnight Angels the co-rulers of Wakanda.


Online Emperorjones

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1251 on: September 13, 2016, 02:52:50 pm »
I'm still wondering why anyone is suprised at what Coates has done to the BP mythos?

I said this was going to happen even before the first Coates penned BP issue dropped.

A lot of heads called me out for supposedly being a negative nancy.

What say you now?


I didn't call you that per se, but as one of the people who was cautiously optimistic about Coates when I heard he got the job, I am willing to admit I was wrong. I even bought a subscription to support Coates and the book. I've been hoping it would turn around, but I'm losing hope fast on that. I'll let the subscription run out and then I'll be done. And I'm not touching Gay's book; her hit job on Nate Parker (in the New York Times I believe) showed me what time it was where she was concerned.

Brothers EJ and Ezyo, I am so sorry to see your hope for BP dashed, angry too!  Repping T'Challa in a positive light in his own book should not be that hard, especially since that should be job #1.  Coates missed this, completely over-thinking the task at hand by conceiving of his grandiose plot to raise his personal beliefs and somehow, I suppose, circle back around and give T'Challa his due!?!  Coates BP has been a huge disappointment. Personally, I lost hope after issue #3, having read Coates' comments/thoughts and knowing that his entire first year run was already in the can.  Such a let down for all of us who've endured so much frustration with Marvel's representation of the character over the last several years.

Peace/No Peace,

Mont

Looking at it i feel like this story would of been better served as a 3rd season story rather then the first, that way there could be a better build up to all of this and have a more established fleshed out reason rather then jumping straight into this rebellion that stemmed from nowhere and not build up to it. Had Coates have T'Challa putting out fires (in the form of stroy arcs) and showing the characters feeling burnt out, it might of went better along. However, even now there were a multitude of ways to make this better then what we are seeing. IE makign the antagonists actually be a threat physically and politically and have them actually be intelligent and not have to rely on bad writer/ OOC for T'Challa and the Royal family to make his story work.

I guess there is always TA Hulk to look forward to a good showing right?


I agree with you that this was an odd place to start the story. I mean if we are essentially reintroducing the character to comics and really introducing him to a whole new readership, why start him off beset by so many intractable problems that he can't really solve? Why make him less heroic in his book than two completely new characters? This doesn't leave you with a good feeling about T'Challa's ability to solve problems, save the day, or be a hero. I mean Coates might get there eventually, and to be fair to him, there are flashes there so far, but still, this was a terrible way to start off a new series.

Before tearing someone down you got to build them up, so the audience can have some perspective of the fall. And they can have some sense of who and what T'Challa is fighting for. Coates should've been working to show why Panther is great, why he is cool, why he deserves to be A-list.

To me, Coates had more of an agenda he wanted to push, ideas he wanted to explore and he's using T'Challa to do that. If this was a wholly new character or even a more obscure one I likely wouldn't care due to Coates's politics, but I don't know if it would be as big a deal. But T'Challa has been written better before, and the longtime readers do have those books, they have that proof, and Coates's experimentation, his political and ideological explorations perhaps, aren't working for me. For Coates fans and for the uninitiated perhaps that's different, but I've read a good deal of Priest and Hudlin, plus Maberry and Liss as well. Even one volume from Kirby.

I disagree for one, because I think the writing is too quick to throw black males under the bus to the detriment of black fans-longtime or otherwise, but two, in how the story is being told. It isn't building up T'Challa. It's throwing dirt on him. I think the book is hot right now, but once the 'woke', liberal Coates fans, and black feminist crew move on, T'Challa might be in a worse place than he was by the end of Maberry's run, and I really disliked where he was at the end of Doom War. I can't see how anyone who gets into Black Panther solely on Coates run will come away with a better appreciation for the character.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1252 on: September 13, 2016, 03:48:00 pm »
I agree with you that this was an odd place to start the story. I mean if we are essentially reintroducing the character to comics and really introducing him to a whole new readership, why start him off beset by so many intractable problems that he can't really solve? Why make him less heroic in his book than two completely new characters? This doesn't leave you with a good feeling about T'Challa's ability to solve problems, save the day, or be a hero. I mean Coates might get there eventually, and to be fair to him, there are flashes there so far, but still, this was a terrible way to start off a new series.

Before tearing someone down you got to build them up, so the audience can have some perspective of the fall. And they can have some sense of who and what T'Challa is fighting for. Coates should've been working to show why Panther is great, why he is cool, why he deserves to be A-list.

To me, Coates had more of an agenda he wanted to push, ideas he wanted to explore and he's using T'Challa to do that. If this was a wholly new character or even a more obscure one I likely wouldn't care due to Coates's politics, but I don't know if it would be as big a deal. But T'Challa has been written better before, and the longtime readers do have those books, they have that proof, and Coates's experimentation, his political and ideological explorations perhaps, aren't working for me. For Coates fans and for the uninitiated perhaps that's different, but I've read a good deal of Priest and Hudlin, plus Maberry and Liss as well. Even one volume from Kirby.

I disagree for one, because I think the writing is too quick to throw black males under the bus to the detriment of black fans-longtime or otherwise, but two, in how the story is being told. It isn't building up T'Challa. It's throwing dirt on him. I think the book is hot right now, but once the 'woke', liberal Coates fans, and black feminist crew move on, T'Challa might be in a worse place than he was by the end of Maberry's run, and I really disliked where he was at the end of Doom War. I can't see how anyone who gets into Black Panther solely on Coates run will come away with a better appreciation for the character.

Coates is not a Black Panther enthusiast so expecting anything different from what he's currently writing, is futile.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1253 on: September 13, 2016, 05:19:57 pm »
Its amazing to me that hickman spent 4 years slowly tearing apart everything dear to tchalla...

Then, in sw, had him rise to the occassion to fight god doom ,a heroic suicide mission to give reed time to save the universe, persevered and helped bring everything back. Ending with tchalla saving everything and everyone, his kingdom restored, wakanda heading to space. ...

And that "victory" lasted 3 f*cking pages in sw9 before coates decided to deconstruct not only tchalla but the whole wakanda mythos

Online Emperorjones

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1254 on: September 13, 2016, 05:43:00 pm »
I agree with you that this was an odd place to start the story. I mean if we are essentially reintroducing the character to comics and really introducing him to a whole new readership, why start him off beset by so many intractable problems that he can't really solve? Why make him less heroic in his book than two completely new characters? This doesn't leave you with a good feeling about T'Challa's ability to solve problems, save the day, or be a hero. I mean Coates might get there eventually, and to be fair to him, there are flashes there so far, but still, this was a terrible way to start off a new series.

Before tearing someone down you got to build them up, so the audience can have some perspective of the fall. And they can have some sense of who and what T'Challa is fighting for. Coates should've been working to show why Panther is great, why he is cool, why he deserves to be A-list.

To me, Coates had more of an agenda he wanted to push, ideas he wanted to explore and he's using T'Challa to do that. If this was a wholly new character or even a more obscure one I likely wouldn't care due to Coates's politics, but I don't know if it would be as big a deal. But T'Challa has been written better before, and the longtime readers do have those books, they have that proof, and Coates's experimentation, his political and ideological explorations perhaps, aren't working for me. For Coates fans and for the uninitiated perhaps that's different, but I've read a good deal of Priest and Hudlin, plus Maberry and Liss as well. Even one volume from Kirby.

I disagree for one, because I think the writing is too quick to throw black males under the bus to the detriment of black fans-longtime or otherwise, but two, in how the story is being told. It isn't building up T'Challa. It's throwing dirt on him. I think the book is hot right now, but once the 'woke', liberal Coates fans, and black feminist crew move on, T'Challa might be in a worse place than he was by the end of Maberry's run, and I really disliked where he was at the end of Doom War. I can't see how anyone who gets into Black Panther solely on Coates run will come away with a better appreciation for the character.

Coates is not a Black Panther enthusiast so expecting anything different from what he's currently writing, is futile.

To me whether or not he's an enthusiast should have no bearing on writing a competent, honorable, and dynamic character that will leave the project in good health, on a strong foundation, when he eventually moves on. I wonder if he would write Tony Stark, Peter Parker, Steve Rogers, or Carol Danvers the same way he's writing T'Challa?

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1255 on: September 13, 2016, 07:26:56 pm »
Random thoughts:  I get that Coates has problems with a Monarchy and it looks like his goal is to change the government of Wakanda.  And I get that in order to justify it, T'challa has to shown as a failure.  If he is a strong, successful monarch, then the people's justification for a change is weakened, especially in the minds of the reader.  It makes the people look ungrateful.  Now, from Doom's attack on T'challa that lead to Shuri becoming BP through to Hickman has given him in-story justification.  So, I get that he can't make T'challa look successful and strong now, if his goal is to bring the readers to the point that they believe altering the monarchy/government is the right step.

The thing is, he could have got there, without making T'challa looking like a failure.  There is another other in-story justification for the change that is common place in comics.  You see, he is, despite comments to the contrary, a regular super-hero, too.  That is, he puts the good of the world over the good of Wakanda.  He is more warrior than warrior king.  Yes, he is more king than Thor is, but just as Thor is constantly putting earth over Asgard, T'challa has spent a great deal of his career outside of Wakanda.  So, Coates could have gone that route.  He could have wrote him as the king who would rather be on the front-lines defending human life, than on the throne taking care of legal issues.  Then you can have him successfully taking down the forces of evil, but it keeps him so busy that the administration of government slips from his control.  Then T'challa looks even more heroic by realizing this and accepting change in the government so things could run smoother.

BTW, I'm not saying this is the route I would take; I think there is nothing wrong with the current government of Wakanda and BP's place in it, but if this change is his goal, he could have went at it another way. 

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1256 on: September 14, 2016, 04:45:37 am »
Did Priest establish T'challa could get from NY to Wakanda in like 45 minutes?



The "king" title should be a positive addition to the mythos. A way to separate T'challa from other heroes. What makes him different. What gives him MORE and DIFFERENT story telling options and perspectives. Without the monarchy and Wakanda, he's just another enhanced super hero like Rogers.

Priest integrated it into his comic. Being "king" was almost like another super power the way he could wield it to get what he (tchalla) wanted.

Hudlin had no problem showing T'challa advisors being mad when he was gone. Or his mom insisting on him getting married and producing heirs due to him being a king. He used the "kingship" as a story telling element, not as a hindrance.

Coates doesn't have that imagination or story telling ability and wants to root it in "real life sh*t," and to him, because of his limited world view and own bias, real life sh*t means "stereotypical africa."

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1257 on: September 14, 2016, 05:01:23 am »
Did Priest establish T'challa could get from NY to Wakanda in like 45 minutes?



The "king" title should be a positive addition to the mythos. A way to separate T'challa from other heroes. What makes him different. What gives him MORE and DIFFERENT story telling options and perspectives. Without the monarchy and Wakanda, he's just another enhanced super hero like Rogers.

Priest integrated it into his comic. Being "king" was almost like another super power the way he could wield it to get what he (tchalla) wanted.

Hudlin had no problem showing T'challa advisors being mad when he was gone. Or his mom insisting on him getting married and producing heirs due to him being a king. He used the "kingship" as a story telling element, not as a hindrance.

Coates doesn't have that imagination or story telling ability and wants to root it in "real life sh*t," and to him, because of his limited world view and own bias, real life sh*t means "stereotypical africa."

Thor can get to Earth to Asgard in a second, but it is a common theme in his title that being on earth keeps him from doing his Asgardian duties.

That said, I agree totally with you that it's not a problem.  But with Coates' goal to derail the Monarchy, he could have done it without making T'challa look like a complete failure.  He could have used this common royal issue of divided duties as the basis, but he didn't.  (But again, his first mistake is thinking the Monarchy is a bad thing.)

Offline The Evasive 1

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Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
« Reply #1258 on: September 14, 2016, 10:31:01 am »
I really thought I was being to judgmental when I first starting reading Coates-Panther and was distressed. Because there was some push back on my statements of disapproval, I thought maybe I should wait and give it a chance. I kept saying, "I'll give it just ONE more issue!" and I still tried to have some hope Coates would maybe read some of the tweets or comments from actual long time BP fans and consider what his legacy would be in writing a iconic black character in comics and the hopes those fans who stuck by the character through the "dark times" the character endured over the last couple of years. Coates, the only black writer of the character right now, is the most detrimental to it. I never thought I'd say it, but it's true. And he probably doesn't even see it that way which is a travesty. Like someone said earlier, you have too many new fans and folks who never knew what the character was about drinking Coates Cool-aid just because there is a black writer writing a black character. That's enough for them. You can see it in the many posts on Facebook and other social media pages that pop up where folks don't have clue of the BP mythos.  You can go in there and try to correct falsehoods and erroneous beliefs and it's to no avail. Even if they did just start with Priest, at least that is ok if they at least read that entire run AND Hudlin's to have SOME perspective. But alas, there are folks who haven't even done that let alone read any of the earlier writers. I mean you still got people stuck on the T'Challa/Storm marriage when that ship has loooonnnnggg since past. And after every thing Storm has done just before and after the divorce, why would a fan really want to see them back together anyway?

Yes, it is good that the character is getting such exposure in the MU now that its taking him to "A-List"status. But what type of A-lister will he be when it's all said and done? The writers of BP in guest appearances and other team books are doing a better portrayal of the character. Makes since, since unlike Coates, they are actual comic story writers and know enough of the history of the character. Some are actually meant what they said when they said they were fans of the character. It' looks like our hopes lie with them now to keep that T'Challa alive until somebody else, a real fan of BP , eventually replaces Coates. We can only hope it's sooner than later.

[hipster time]

i've stopped arguing with the newbs or the old time fans that somehow read every run but don't remember sh*t.

I post a scan that shows them they are wrong and move on. Isn't worth it.

/hipster
True enough. I guess I'll stop getting frustrated over those folks over there and concentrate venting or praising BP stuff over here.

Offline Blanks

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« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 01:42:11 pm by Blanks »