Author Topic: NEW BLACK PANTHER COMIC BOOK - Ridley's Believe it or Not!  (Read 1306475 times)

Offline Ture

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I just read this month's Black Panthers' titles. I liked the covers especially the variants.





I would really like to know why Coates so heavily favors T'Challa and by extension Waknda's deconstruction. The Black Panther isn't even rendered aesthetically pleasing. While the use historical Afrakans designations is appreciated, it kind of gets lost in the narrative. Why didn't Coates make this a tale set in the distant future and make Wakanda the beneficent Trans Galactic Federation? Why not a Black Panther 3099?

Star Wars is dying and its ghost is killing Black Panther via translocation to the Coatesverse.






Like mentioned above Okorafor's Afrakan cultural references nuance the story but are overshadowed by the incessant need to point out that the women run this show. Following in Coates footsteps of depicting Wakanda as an average or trouble society is a major failing. Two writers both lacking the incentive to champion Black Panther and Wakanda in any substantial and meaningful way.

I do like how the spirit heads follow and converse with Shuri. This is something T'Challa too should the ability to do.

I think they both fail to grasp the importance of  Black Panther, his supporting characters and Wakanda representing the pinnacle of Afrakan and its diaspora's cultural autonomy.



I do not understand how a brutha as brilliant and truly Afrakan as you are, Ndugu Ture, can stand reading these ultimate expressions of dreck being vomited upon our favorite Wakandans with any form of regularity. I have long abandoned and thrown over these subpar scribes, and would never go back to them for any blandishment or inducement that even the greatest powers in Existence could conjure.

I've been with Black Panther through it all. I read T'Challa getting his wig split by an old lady wielding a can of tuna fish. I was there when Wakanda was giving out free flu shots at their first hospital. I read when T'Challa was burned at the stake (err cross technically). Got a job in Hell's Kitchen. I was there when Elmer Fudd through him into a fence of barbed wire. I was on the scene when T'Challa was rockin' green eyed contact lenses. I witnessed T'Challa kissing his first white girl and getting a Necklacing. Were those two incidents related?  I read how upset T'Challa became over blowing up one little planet and had an emotional breakdown on alien world. I read about a man who wouldn't lay a finger on Korvac's girl nor the Black Widow but through hands with Storm. To put it simply Supreme, I was primed for Coates.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 07:59:21 pm by Ture »
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Offline Ture

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I'm with Supreme's point of view on this. I just can't stomach it. Even though the covers for a lot of the books look awesome and some of the artwork within has, I don't like the messages they are sending. And I wonder just who actually likes these books as stories? Perhaps the agendas they push are more important to them, but I wonder who is eagerly waiting each month for the next issue for purely entertainment reasons? (Granted not every story has to be for enjoyment, but still, how many of these stories are thrilling, suspenseful, and you can't wait to see what happens next? And as for any educational/informative aspects, how much do these stories even do that? Now, when it comes to indoctrination, that's another matter, but that's not necessarily education).

As for why they deconstruct T'Challa, I feel they feel that black heterosexual men are bad and 'problematic' or the 'real problem' and are in the conundrum of having to write a series that on the surface is supposed to center (one of the intersectionalists' favorite terms IMO) a black heterosexual male character. If they could fully do away with T'Challa and still sell books, they probably would. Then again, maybe the temptation to have T'Challa as a punching bag is just too strong. Punching T'Challa (as a proxy for straight black men) also could ingratiate them with white liberal/feminist bosses, colleagues, and friends.

Also, I think that Coates shows his limitations, despite his seemingly impressive knowledge of some history and African traditions (at least names for stuff) when it comes to political imagination. Perhaps his Wakanda is a stand-in for America or Europe, but instead of being real about it and exploring the history of colonialism and racism, he tries to be too smart-for his own-good and use Wakanda as the proxy for that to touch on in a safer way, or so he thinks. He knows his lane.

I completely understand you both Emperorjoes. As my response to SI read, the Black Panther has been on the receiving end of some of the worst character assignations of any Marvel hero. There are things put in Black Panther comics I would never let a developing child or impressionable teen view especially one who is Afrakan (so called Black). Reginald Hudlin delivered the best version of the Black Panther and Wakanda bar none. His run is the one I give to children and recommend to adults. His animated series just set a standard for who the Black Panther is. I am hard pressed to recall any fodder Coates could use to discredit the Black Panther or Wakanda that came from Hudlin's run. Coates 15 minutes are just about up. As with your comment "they feel that black heterosexual men are bad and 'problematic" check out my last post over in BP - Sovereign Supreme - Ya Isipho Hiyo Ni Basa Kem.
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Offline supreme illuminati

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I just read this month's Black Panthers' titles. I liked the covers especially the variants.





I would really like to know why Coates so heavily favors T'Challa and by extension Waknda's deconstruction. The Black Panther isn't even rendered aesthetically pleasing. While the use historical Afrakans designations is appreciated, it kind of gets lost in the narrative. Why didn't Coates make this a tale set in the distant future and make Wakanda the beneficent Trans Galactic Federation? Why not a Black Panther 3099?

Star Wars is dying and its ghost is killing Black Panther via translocation to the Coatesverse.






Like mentioned above Okorafor's Afrakan cultural references nuance the story but are overshadowed by the incessant need to point out that the women run this show. Following in Coates footsteps of depicting Wakanda as an average or trouble society is a major failing. Two writers both lacking the incentive to champion Black Panther and Wakanda in any substantial and meaningful way.

I do like how the spirit heads follow and converse with Shuri. This is something T'Challa too should the ability to do.

I think they both fail to grasp the importance of  Black Panther, his supporting characters and Wakanda representing the pinnacle of Afrakan and its diaspora's cultural autonomy.



I do not understand how a brutha as brilliant and truly Afrakan as you are, Ndugu Ture, can stand reading these ultimate expressions of dreck being vomited upon our favorite Wakandans with any form of regularity. I have long abandoned and thrown over these subpar scribes, and would never go back to them for any blandishment or inducement that even the greatest powers in Existence could conjure.

I've been with Black Panther through it all. I read T'Challa getting his wig split by an old lady wielding a can of tuna fish. I was there when Wakanda was giving out free flu shots at their first hospital. I read when T'Challa was burned at the stake (err cross technically). Got a job in Hell's Kitchen. I was there when Elmer Fudd through him into a fence of barbed wire. I was on the scene when T'Challa was rockin' green eyed contact lenses. I witnessed T'Challa kissing his first white girl and getting a Necklacing. Were those two incidents related?  I read how upset T'Challa became over blowing up one little planet and had an emotional breakdown on alien world. I read about a man who wouldn't lay a finger on Korvac's girl nor the Black Widow but through hands with Storm. To put it simply Supreme, I was primed for Coates.


See my brutha Ture, you are clearly more dedicated to reading more issues of storeis that allege to tell us about The Black Panther than I am. Because, to me? These despicable iterations of The Black Panther which we all vomit at are NOT depictions of The Black Panther the character as he was meant to be [ the guy who clocked The F4 when The F4 were the most powerful group in all of comics ]...but instead they are the racism hatred disrespect cluelessness insecurities etc of the White writers who were threatened by the very notion of Afrakan superheroics encapsulated into comic book form and vomited upon all Afrakans using BP as the proxy.

My R to the H BP wouldn't lay a finger on Black Widow for the laudable and honorable reason that he doesn't lay hands on women. There is no possible way that Storm vs BP could actually happen if BP didn't want that to happen. T'Challa? Caught Spidey slippin with sheer reflexes alone. BEFORE T'Challa was considered superhuman...



...and afterwards he did it even easier...




...so there is NO WAY that Ororo can lay a single shot on T'Challa. NOT happenin.
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Offline Emperorjones

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I'm with Supreme's point of view on this. I just can't stomach it. Even though the covers for a lot of the books look awesome and some of the artwork within has, I don't like the messages they are sending. And I wonder just who actually likes these books as stories? Perhaps the agendas they push are more important to them, but I wonder who is eagerly waiting each month for the next issue for purely entertainment reasons? (Granted not every story has to be for enjoyment, but still, how many of these stories are thrilling, suspenseful, and you can't wait to see what happens next? And as for any educational/informative aspects, how much do these stories even do that? Now, when it comes to indoctrination, that's another matter, but that's not necessarily education).

As for why they deconstruct T'Challa, I feel they feel that black heterosexual men are bad and 'problematic' or the 'real problem' and are in the conundrum of having to write a series that on the surface is supposed to center (one of the intersectionalists' favorite terms IMO) a black heterosexual male character. If they could fully do away with T'Challa and still sell books, they probably would. Then again, maybe the temptation to have T'Challa as a punching bag is just too strong. Punching T'Challa (as a proxy for straight black men) also could ingratiate them with white liberal/feminist bosses, colleagues, and friends.

Also, I think that Coates shows his limitations, despite his seemingly impressive knowledge of some history and African traditions (at least names for stuff) when it comes to political imagination. Perhaps his Wakanda is a stand-in for America or Europe, but instead of being real about it and exploring the history of colonialism and racism, he tries to be too smart-for his own-good and use Wakanda as the proxy for that to touch on in a safer way, or so he thinks. He knows his lane.

I wonder if he looks at it as a way to show the world that is, rather than show Wakanda as the world we want it to be.  He's missing the point that Wakanda is the goal, not the past.  Then again, I think that can be a problem. He point blank said, he doesn't accept the idea that an ideal society would have a King or Queen. He thinks the Monarchy is a flaw of the past.  And I think (he didn't say this), he has a problem with the religious elements of Wakanda. (Maybe he's like Rodenberry who thought human advancement would lead to a religion free society.)  So, the perhaps the reason he doesn't see Wakanda as the goal, because his "perfect society" looks nothing like Wakanda.  Maybe the idea of a spiritual, warrior society with royalty is undesirable.    But that's just my guessing.

That all well could be the case, and I thought the comparison to Roddenberry was intriguing. By The Next Generation, Roddenberry's utopian ideas just didn't make for good storytelling/television and Rick Berman and the writers who inherited Trek from him started going in another direction even before he passed. As for Coates, perhaps it is unfair for me to say since I've been an inconsistent reader of his run and have just refused to read large swaths of it, but does he actually have a vision at all? Ezyo is on to something that I suspect is where Coates is going, what he might consider normal or right, if not ideal.

Criticizing monarchies I have no problem with, especially in the real world. But in comics, even there, I think it should be done in a way that doesn't tear down the characters or craps on the Black Panther legacy, especially if you don't build them back up, that you just continue deconstructing. Which is unfortunate because it seems like Coates does have some ideas, just he doesn't execute them well because they have to go through his pessimistic lens, as MindofShadow pointed out.

You could have easily done a "monarchy bad" type of story with T'challa without making T'challa an incompetent depressed fool.

T'challa, after SW, realizes he is 30+ with no heir. His sister is mid twenties with no heir. T'challa himself has been gone from Wakanda for large amounts of time for various super hero stuff. He has almost died numerous times. Shuri has died before (just recently).

He himself could ahve realized Wakanda needs a back up plan in case him and shuri bite the dust or dissapear. He starts to change the government HIMSELF without being forced, as a contengency plan for the line of Bashenga ending.

You could even have him bringing in other blood relatives/cousins to prepare them to take over the throne if necessary. The tribal council is re-instituted with added powers and responsibilities.

You can show the differences (and similarities) to other marvel monarchs. Namor, Black bolt, Thor, Dracula, Doom, ect.

The barebones of a super hero story isn't f*cking hard. It is abotu challenging the hero and showing us WHY they are the hero and why we should love them and cheer for them. That's it.

Love these ideas. But it makes me wonder if Coates doesn't really believe in heroes or heroism and that it's something that must be examined, overexamined, deconstructed, and dismissed as a fraud (particularly if the hero in question is a black heterosexual male) and I make that distinction because he hasn't been as harsh on Steve Rogers from what I've read of his Captain America work, which truth be told, isn't that bad. Everything isn't sunshine and roses for Coates's Rogers, however, it doesn't feel like he's deconstructing Rogers much at all, and definitely on the level that he has with T'Challa.

Offline Ezyo

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Thing is, Coates original story for S1 wasn't even that far off from being an interesting/good story, execution and the constant need to make Tchalla, the entire cast, and Wakanda look bad os what ruined it. The basic premise could of worked with tweaks that also fit what your suggesting MoS:

1 why does a nation as advanced as Wakanda use an outdated government? First off, Coates should of answered this question better then "They don't need it, it sucks it's gone on favor of the almighty democracy" because obviously there's a reason they used it for 10k years and it's been clearly shown it works as they are further ahead then any other nation. This is just poor writing. You don't ask a question then refuse to answer it or just say it's bad and it needs to change. We should of seen on panel the benefits (protection, advancement in tech, people can talk to him, he is making choice's for the betterment of his people etc) then you could show the flaws -and no, these flaws are NOT stereotypical westernized view of Africa.

Tchalla holds so much power, if he is away, the people feel somewhat lost (not entirely to the point of chaos, but more like Hudlin's return to Africa) maybe smaller things slip through as Tchalla is looking at the big picture. Maybe T'Challa also starts to realize this because he is "distracted" i use this sparingly as it was thrown around way too much and in a very lazy manner.

2. We needed an # 0 that went with #1 to set up the story. #1 basically starts in the middle of the story in a very jarring manner. We are supposed to believe, since this picks up right after  sw ended, that Wakanda is in chaos with zero lead up to it. An #0 issue should of set up Tetu and Zenzis force, shown that they had some other enhanced beings with them, and shown all the "Fires" that T'Challa and the Wakandan army were putting out and stretching them thin.

To make the matters worse for T'Challa, the people he sees going berserk and attacking his people, are HIS citizens (mC'd by Zenzi, yes  actual mind control and not the ambiguous power Coates gave her) as well as Tetus forces, who are NOT Wakandan. Raises the stakes, issue two with T'Challa stupidly going after Zenzi alone makes some more sense that his people are mad at him for attacking Tetus forces when they are "protecting" them  (again Zenzi uses her powers make Wakandans start attacking fellow Wakandans on the outskirts or even Tetu using his own men to play as the aggressors and defender's, give a boost to his strategic mind and makes him more dangerous) as they view them as their saviors when T'Challa is trying to do everything at once.

This also plays into the is the monarch the best option angle for the MA because they feel like they can't help as much without getting the okay from T'Challa and he is being pulled in 10 different directions, so they take it on themselves to hand out justice.

3 Tetu and Zenzi should of been given clear motivations to what they wanted to accomplish as well as clearly defined powers that were an actual threat to Tchalla. Issues 3 should of ended with Tchalla successfully capturing Zenzi without Tetu showing up. He gotta a rally speech from ramonda, he was allegedly "focused now" and so the Issue should of ended with a win. Issue 5, before the bombs went off, we should of seen T'Challa about to wake Zenzi up for interrogation when the explosions happen.

 This serves as an opportunity for Tetu to flex his power. The bombs go off, T'Challa runs out to see what's going on, and protects his mom From the blasts, at the same time, Tetu uses his power to break Zenzi out. At the end of the first arc we see Tchalla and Tetu contrast to each other. T'Challa cradling hosbhurt mother and Tetu cradling unconscious but otherwise okay Zenzi.  There's more ot it but that sets the story up in a way that shows Tchalla is trying but is having a hard time doing everything himself.

No no one man, no rape/rape treehouses from Wakandan bandits and Tetu soldiers, no being tricked by despots just... Because.. and definitely no Shuri "get raped and killed for the glory of the golden city living on" nonsense

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Funny thing about the advance civilization having a king complaint; the thing I find funny about that is that in Science-Fiction, most Star nations have Kings, Queens, or some kind of singular head (Supreme Intelligence, Brood Queen) And true democrasies are rare.

Offline Ezyo

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Funny thing about the advance civilization having a king complaint; the thing I find funny about that is that in Science-Fiction, most Star nations have Kings, Queens, or some kind of singular head (Supreme Intelligence, Brood Queen) And true democrasies are rare.

That's because, those individuals have a drive and aren't being bogged down by red tape or talking heads all wanting to stomp out ideas in favor of Their own. This has also been seen on real Life too. With vast empires and huge advancements in technology that at the time had to do with a singular individual and their dream and the drive to make it happen.

That's what makes it work in fiction, however this whole democracy is the best is just lame, and it's clear that other forms of government work and democracy isn't the end all be all, nor does it not come with it's own issues. Basically an agenda took precedence over answering the question properly. And I think what makes it worse is that originally Coates wanted to only write a 13 issue story. So he would of hammered BP and the mythos and ended it in shambles for the next writer to have to fix.. although maybe seeing how much more damage has been done, maybe cutting the loses early could of been best.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Funny thing about the advance civilization having a king complaint; the thing I find funny about that is that in Science-Fiction, most Star nations have Kings, Queens, or some kind of singular head (Supreme Intelligence, Brood Queen) And true democrasies are rare.

That's because, those individuals have a drive and aren't being bogged down by red tape or talking heads all wanting to stomp out ideas in favor of Their own. This has also been seen on real Life too. With vast empires and huge advancements in technology that at the time had to do with a singular individual and their dream and the drive to make it happen.

That's what makes it work in fiction, however this whole democracy is the best is just lame, and it's clear that other forms of government work and democracy isn't the end all be all, nor does it not come with it's own issues. Basically an agenda took precedence over answering the question properly. And I think what makes it worse is that originally Coates wanted to only write a 13 issue story. So he would of hammered BP and the mythos and ended it in shambles for the next writer to have to fix.. although maybe seeing how much more damage has been done, maybe cutting the loses early could of been best.



Coates initially wanted only [ lucky number ] 13 issues? Cutting him off then...and having Redjack and/or Narcisse, R to the H, Priest, SOMEbody OTHER than TurnCoates...take over would have been a GODSEND. We would actually have our hardcore BLACK Panther back, and have long left in the dust the TurnCoates turn to crap travesty and tragedy miscalled books and "seasons". And we would have bolstered readership, as people inspired by the MCU BP would come to BP's solo seriesand find a recognizable character, not this not remake of Star Wars with T'Challa as the Last [ Ass-Backwards ] Jedi.

This most definitely IS NOT some kind of Middle Passage metaphor. One can only hope that this is TurnCoates LAST passages on Black Panther.
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Offline CvilleWakandan

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I heard Coates was on Capital Hill for the hearing on reparations. We should start a hash tag "Reparations for the Originators". lol
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Offline Battle

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I heard Coates was on Capital Hill for the hearing on reparations. We should start a hash tag "Reparations for the Originators". lol





What does that remark mean?

Offline CvilleWakandan

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I heard Coates was on Capital Hill for the hearing on reparations. We should start a hash tag "Reparations for the Originators". lol





What does that remark mean?

The Originators from the second arc. The creators the Wakandans put in chains and sent to a ultra dimensional reservation.
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Offline Battle

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The Originators from the second arc. The creators the Wakandans put in chains and sent to a ultra dimensional reservation.




Oh!  :-[  ;D

...great...!  :-\

A reference from one of his Black Panther stories...   and you just revealed elements of the plot someday I may read someday.  ;D



Yeah, Mr. Ta-Nehisi Coates represented on Juneteenth on Capitol Hill and drew the attention of the world.

I have an increased newfound respect for him now.

Offline CvilleWakandan

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The Originators from the second arc. The creators the Wakandans put in chains and sent to a ultra dimensional reservation.




Oh!  :-[  ;D

...great...!  :-\

A reference from one of his Black Panther stories...   and you just revealed elements of the plot someday I may read someday.  ;D



Yeah, Mr. Ta-Nehisi Coates represented on Juneteenth on Capitol Hill and drew the attention of the world.

I have an increased newfound respect for him now.

Did he propose a form of reparations or just talk about the case for it?
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Offline Battle

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Did he propose a form of reparations or just talk about the case for it?





Mr. Ta-Nehisi Coates delivered an eloquent,  thorough and well-researched historical account of the American slave era, dates, all persons involved, locations, atrocities committed to whom, all the way up to present day in support of a house bill passed called H.R. 40, a commission to study and develop Reparations proposals for African-Americans authored by Representative Sheila Jackson-Lee, a Democrat from Houston, Texas' District 18.

Offline CvilleWakandan

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Did he propose a form of reparations or just talk about the case for it?





Mr. Ta-Nehisi Coates delivered an eloquent,  thorough and well-researched historical account of the American slave era, dates, all persons involved, locations, atrocities committed to whom, all the way up to present day in support of a house bill passed called H.R. 40, a commission to study and develop Reparations proposals for African-Americans authored by Representative Sheila Jackson-Lee, a Democrat from Houston, Texas' District 18.

You might like this than.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/
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