Author Topic: Termination and Liberation for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther Finale  (Read 825817 times)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4710 on: February 10, 2020, 03:41:30 pm »
While I agree that death threats and that behavior is wrong, I feel Coates also is more than happy to jump on the black man bashing and won't hesitate at any opportunity to call black men weak.

Agreed. Though I am skeptical about these 'death threats' that Oprah is claiming King has received. And no one is saying anything about Susan Rice's threat to Snoop, which was way more explicit than Snoop's alleged threat. But no one is decrying Rice, just like they are trying to shift focus away from King's disrespectful questioning or her questionable "journalism", along with Oprah definitely, when it comes to black men.

Oprah, Rice, MSNBC, Coates, and others are now doubling down on the scary black man trope, which is what King was evoking in her interview with Leslie that got such push back, so they haven't learned anything.

And it really sucks that someone with Coates's mindset is writing Black Panther right now, but Disney/Marvel has him there for a reason.

Offline Marvell2100

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4711 on: February 10, 2020, 03:49:29 pm »
While I agree that death threats and that behavior is wrong, I feel Coates also is more than happy to jump on the black man bashing and won't hesitate at any opportunity to call black men weak.

Agreed. Though I am skeptical about these 'death threats' that Oprah is claiming King has received. And no one is saying anything about Susan Rice's threat to Snoop, which was way more explicit than Snoop's alleged threat. But no one is decrying Rice, just like they are trying to shift focus away from King's disrespectful questioning or her questionable "journalism", along with Oprah definitely, when it comes to black men.

Oprah, Rice, MSNBC, Coates, and others are now doubling down on the scary black man trope, which is what King was evoking in her interview with Leslie that got such push back, so they haven't learned anything.

And it really sucks that someone with Coates's mindset is writing Black Panther right now, but Disney/Marvel has him there for a reason.

They should know better than to paint all black men with the same brush. Weren't they all singing Kobe's praises days ago? I don't like the comments made by Snoop and others that would promote any kind of violence. But I'm also not a fan of Oprah or Gayle either. I don't like people who bash black males and then proceed to make money off bashing black males like it's a cottage industry. Just like I don't like people who make money off denigrating black women.
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Offline Ezyo

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4712 on: February 10, 2020, 04:20:12 pm »
And people wonder why Cooglers BP resonates so well.
It moves away fro. The tropes, speaks of respect, unity and black love. 

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4713 on: February 11, 2020, 04:05:08 am »
While I agree that death threats and that behavior is wrong, I feel Coates also is more than happy to jump on the black man bashing and won't hesitate at any opportunity to call black men weak.

Agreed. Though I am skeptical about these 'death threats' that Oprah is claiming King has received. And no one is saying anything about Susan Rice's threat to Snoop, which was way more explicit than Snoop's alleged threat. But no one is decrying Rice, just like they are trying to shift focus away from King's disrespectful questioning or her questionable "journalism", along with Oprah definitely, when it comes to black men.

Oprah, Rice, MSNBC, Coates, and others are now doubling down on the scary black man trope, which is what King was evoking in her interview with Leslie that got such push back, so they haven't learned anything.

And it really sucks that someone with Coates's mindset is writing Black Panther right now, but Disney/Marvel has him there for a reason.

They should know better than to paint all black men with the same brush. Weren't they all singing Kobe's praises days ago? I don't like the comments made by Snoop and others that would promote any kind of violence. But I'm also not a fan of Oprah or Gayle either. I don't like people who bash black males and then proceed to make money off bashing black males like it's a cottage industry. Just like I don't like people who make money off denigrating black women.

Depend on who you mean by 'all', because the media was trying to find a way to get around to that allegation. I am surprised they were being so cautious about it. The Washington Post even suspended a reporter who wrote about it. And we saw some celebrities or prominent people like Evan Rachel Wood and Abigail Disney going in on Kobe. We also got Alison Morris's "LA Nakers" and another ESPN (?) anchor who, in mentioning the case, referred to his teammates as 'cellmates'. So, they wanted to get Kobe as much as praise him, and then King either offered up her services or was told to go ahead and swing the ax. It just boomeranged on her.

I don't like it when black men or black women are bashed, however there are some people who deserve to be, and I put both King and Oprah in that category because of their past actions. I don't want King physically harmed or threatened with bodily harm, but she deserves to be as disrespected as she's disrespected others, and excommunicated as well.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4714 on: February 11, 2020, 04:06:21 am »
And people wonder why Cooglers BP resonates so well.
It moves away fro. The tropes, speaks of respect, unity and black love. 


I don't completely agree. Though there was much to admire in the Black Panther film I also felt it threw shade on Black Americans, so much for unity.

Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4715 on: February 11, 2020, 07:24:31 am »
And people wonder why Cooglers BP resonates so well.
It moves away fro. The tropes, speaks of respect, unity and black love. 


I don't completely agree. Though there was much to admire in the Black Panther film I also felt it threw shade on Black Americans, so much for unity.

How? The the only Black Americans from a story standpoint were the kids at the beginning and end. And maybe Killmongers girlfriend, but they never say where she is from.
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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4716 on: February 11, 2020, 08:57:32 am »
And people wonder why Cooglers BP resonates so well.
It moves away fro. The tropes, speaks of respect, unity and black love. 


I don't completely agree. Though there was much to admire in the Black Panther film I also felt it threw shade on Black Americans, so much for unity.

How? The the only Black Americans from a story standpoint were the kids at the beginning and end. And maybe Killmongers girlfriend, but they never say where she is from.

Killmonger being a rage-filled monster, almost like a black brute from old. Whatever points he made were vastly outweighed by his rage, his cold murder of his girlfriend and his abuse of the Wakandan female elder could be something that came right out of an Oprah movie. Killmonger's disrespect for Wakanda and its customs, and it was like he was a wild 'akata' that needed to be civilized. I'm not going to say he was a black brute stereotype, but there were aspects there. A lesser actor than Michael B. Jordan might have took him over into that territory. Jordan, Coogler, and the script writer also imbued him with a sense of humanity and a reason for his rage which also kept him from being a black brute, and added complexity by making him super smart, dedicated, and cultured, and giving some legitimacy to his grievance at being left behind by the Wakandan side of his family. Curiously, the American side was never talked about.

The glimpses we got of Black America were all in the hood and I felt that Okoye's disdain for the wig she had to wear was also a jab at black women (perhaps not just American to be fair) who wear them or weaves. Further, the young kids were ignorant, not offensively so, but more along the line of a typical Hollywood idea/depiction of what black kids from the hood would act like. Thankfully they didn't try to rob T'Challa and Shuri.

So, when it came to Black America we got poverty, urban blight, and callous, self-destructive rage.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 09:00:44 am by Emperorjones »

Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4717 on: February 11, 2020, 09:34:13 am »
Killmonger is the villain. Self destructive rage is kinda there thing.

I saw nothing adverse about the kids. They were just being kids. And their depiction of Oakland was better than Menice to Society, Juice, Boys in the Hood.... I'd say it was more lower middle class than poverty.
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Offline Ezyo

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4718 on: February 11, 2020, 12:29:48 pm »
And people wonder why Cooglers BP resonates so well.
It moves away fro. The tropes, speaks of respect, unity and black love. 


I don't completely agree. Though there was much to admire in the Black Panther film I also felt it threw shade on Black Americans, so much for unity.

How? The the only Black Americans from a story standpoint were the kids at the beginning and end. And maybe Killmongers girlfriend, but they never say where she is from.

Killmonger being a rage-filled monster, almost like a black brute from old. Whatever points he made were vastly outweighed by his rage, his cold murder of his girlfriend and his abuse of the Wakandan female elder could be something that came right out of an Oprah movie. Killmonger's disrespect for Wakanda and its customs, and it was like he was a wild 'akata' that needed to be civilized. I'm not going to say he was a black brute stereotype, but there were aspects there. A lesser actor than Michael B. Jordan might have took him over into that territory. Jordan, Coogler, and the script writer also imbued him with a sense of humanity and a reason for his rage which also kept him from being a black brute, and added complexity by making him super smart, dedicated, and cultured, and giving some legitimacy to his grievance at being left behind by the Wakandan side of his family. Curiously, the American side was never talked about.

The glimpses we got of Black America were all in the hood and I felt that Okoye's disdain for the wig she had to wear was also a jab at black women (perhaps not just American to be fair) who wear them or weaves. Further, the young kids were ignorant, not offensively so, but more along the line of a typical Hollywood idea/depiction of what black kids from the hood would act like. Thankfully they didn't try to rob T'Challa and Shuri.

So, when it came to Black America we got poverty, urban blight, and callous, self-destructive rage.

It's kinda how killmonger is though, but I felt that MCU made his hatred make more sense. The nation of his father's birth, came on and killed his father and left him there alone with no one, even Zuri left in which I could assume Erik knew about him as well. And really what we saw of Oakland was pretty mild, there weren't gangbangers,  women on the corners or any one slinging drugs. We saw kids playing basketball.

Also going back to Erik. He was a Stark contrast to T'Challa in CW. Both lost their fathers (notice how they both are rocking their fathers the same way while crying) both were filled with rage, but T'Challa overcame it, and he saw in Erik what he could of been had he succumbed to it.

As for Erik Killing his gf and choking the older lady. Those were to drive the point that he was so blinded that he would commit these terrible acts, while also driving the flaw in his method of opening Wakanda up (which had to be different from Nakias and eventually T'Challas) and for people to see why his way was wrong (which to this day people still will make arguments about how he was right still)

The wig thing i think I read that was More to do with Dania
keeps her head shaved, and it was Kinda a joke on how she felt about wearing wigs since she also had to wear on in the walking dead, and not a dig at black women.

I guess I didn't see it as shade throwing on African Americans, but somewhat actually address real hardships and frustrations black Americans deal with

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4719 on: February 12, 2020, 10:43:23 am »
Killmonger is the villain. Self destructive rage is kinda there thing.

I saw nothing adverse about the kids. They were just being kids. And their depiction of Oakland was better than Menice to Society, Juice, Boys in the Hood.... I'd say it was more lower middle class than poverty.

Self-destructive rage is usually a thing for comic book movie villains, however, there are few prominent black comic book movie villains, and just like we are seeing this pushback to Snoop and other King detractors by labeling black men specific as misogynists, misogynoir, or "weak" in the words of Coates, I can't say that Killmonger will be seen or treated like countless white villains. I do recall some online talk about him displaying toxic masculinity (paraphrasing here) when the movie was out. As for the kids, it's nothing against them per se, however, we've seen these kind of kids in hood scenes before. The most thorough black American-Killmonger-was also bloodthirsty and had 'gangsta' swag. Wakandans (i.e. continental Africans) were depicted as generally being more knowledgeable, on point, and dare I say, civilized.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4720 on: February 12, 2020, 10:52:08 am »
And people wonder why Cooglers BP resonates so well.
It moves away fro. The tropes, speaks of respect, unity and black love. 


I don't completely agree. Though there was much to admire in the Black Panther film I also felt it threw shade on Black Americans, so much for unity.

How? The the only Black Americans from a story standpoint were the kids at the beginning and end. And maybe Killmongers girlfriend, but they never say where she is from.

Killmonger being a rage-filled monster, almost like a black brute from old. Whatever points he made were vastly outweighed by his rage, his cold murder of his girlfriend and his abuse of the Wakandan female elder could be something that came right out of an Oprah movie. Killmonger's disrespect for Wakanda and its customs, and it was like he was a wild 'akata' that needed to be civilized. I'm not going to say he was a black brute stereotype, but there were aspects there. A lesser actor than Michael B. Jordan might have took him over into that territory. Jordan, Coogler, and the script writer also imbued him with a sense of humanity and a reason for his rage which also kept him from being a black brute, and added complexity by making him super smart, dedicated, and cultured, and giving some legitimacy to his grievance at being left behind by the Wakandan side of his family. Curiously, the American side was never talked about.

The glimpses we got of Black America were all in the hood and I felt that Okoye's disdain for the wig she had to wear was also a jab at black women (perhaps not just American to be fair) who wear them or weaves. Further, the young kids were ignorant, not offensively so, but more along the line of a typical Hollywood idea/depiction of what black kids from the hood would act like. Thankfully they didn't try to rob T'Challa and Shuri.

So, when it came to Black America we got poverty, urban blight, and callous, self-destructive rage.

It's kinda how killmonger is though, but I felt that MCU made his hatred make more sense. The nation of his father's birth, came on and killed his father and left him there alone with no one, even Zuri left in which I could assume Erik knew about him as well. And really what we saw of Oakland was pretty mild, there weren't gangbangers,  women on the corners or any one slinging drugs. We saw kids playing basketball.

Also going back to Erik. He was a Stark contrast to T'Challa in CW. Both lost their fathers (notice how they both are rocking their fathers the same way while crying) both were filled with rage, but T'Challa overcame it, and he saw in Erik what he could of been had he succumbed to it.

As for Erik Killing his gf and choking the older lady. Those were to drive the point that he was so blinded that he would commit these terrible acts, while also driving the flaw in his method of opening Wakanda up (which had to be different from Nakias and eventually T'Challas) and for people to see why his way was wrong (which to this day people still will make arguments about how he was right still)

The wig thing i think I read that was More to do with Dania
keeps her head shaved, and it was Kinda a joke on how she felt about wearing wigs since she also had to wear on in the walking dead, and not a dig at black women.

I guess I didn't see it as shade throwing on African Americans, but somewhat actually address real hardships and frustrations black Americans deal with


I liked Killmonger a lot in the film. Michael B. Jordan's performance was my favorite in the movie. Despite him being the villain, I do think director, screenwriter, and actor all worked to not make Killmonger a one dimensional rage monster. They gave him some complexity and he come off well enough as a beefier, more aggressive version of Magneto in the X-Men films.

That being said, I also felt that how he was depicted could fit within the narrative about black American men (specifically) in terms of being prone to violence and misogyny. And it's this kind of stereotype of black men that people like Oprah and King spread and make their bank on.

One can say that Oakland was depicted in a mild fashion, but still that scene of urban blight is juxtaposed against Wakanda. That's visually saying something, that black Americans are not as civilized as Wakanda, ergo continental Africans. And it is this idea that is being pushed on stuff like Bob Hearts Abishola as well. And some in the media might tout Nigerians in American Ivy League schools in a way to create a black Model Minority to pit against black Americans. In the 80s, some were attempting to do this with people from the Caribbean vs. black Americans, but today it is continental Africans.

Does all this mean that I disliked the film? No. I saw it like four times in the theater and have it on home video. I bought several of the action figures even. But I was not pleased with everything I saw in the film.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4721 on: February 13, 2020, 01:49:23 pm »
Quote
That's visually saying something, that black Americans are not as civilized as Wakanda, ergo continental Africans

There not though. Wakanda is beyond them.

Just like they are beyond Nigeria and their caravan of human trafficking.

Wakanda is supposed to be better.

OF course, that doesn't change people using that to sew the seeds of controversy or whatever. But I don't think that is Coogler's fault. He portrayed Wakanda correctly. IMO

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4722 on: February 13, 2020, 02:30:50 pm »
Quote
That's visually saying something, that black Americans are not as civilized as Wakanda, ergo continental Africans

There not though. Wakanda is beyond them.

Just like they are beyond Nigeria and their caravan of human trafficking.

Wakanda is supposed to be better.

OF course, that doesn't change people using that to sew the seeds of controversy or whatever. But I don't think that is Coogler's fault. He portrayed Wakanda correctly. IMO

Good point about the Nigerian comparison, which does show how the film attempted to depict Wakanda as the best of the best when it comes to "black excellence" (not a fan of that term really, but it's the best I could think of to get my point across). This isn't an issue of how correctly Wakanda was portrayed, which I think the film did very well. This is an issue of how Wakanda was depicted compared to black America, and I do think the film took a few jabs at black Americans.

The idea of Wakanda being better is an interesting one. Certainly it has the technology and wealth, but it is also governed by a mostly absolute monarchy that uses combat to determine succession. They are also isolationist and xenophobic, for the most part. So, there are contradictions there, and there's nothing wrong with that, it can make for good stories and drama, but I do think it's interesting that we all generally just consider Wakanda "better".
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 02:33:18 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4723 on: February 13, 2020, 04:08:38 pm »
I mean, it is better. Yes it has an absolute monarch, But anyone can challenge for the throne, the black panther facing the challengers is at a disadvantage, and its also about leading by example. Wakanda has free education and health care for its people, they are free to go wherever they want, and they live very comfortable lives on terms of their basic cable package. They aren't really xenophobic in the MCU. And in terms of government, for all the talk about how great a democracy is, when it comes down to it. The people only have the power to change their own local government. Who becomes president, it doesn't matter, the people have no say in the matter. Their states representatives do, and depending on where you live, your state has little impact on the electoral college.

So it's not as though a Monarch can't work. Plus the terms are challenged more often in Wakanda

Offline Ture

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Re: Cosmic Revelations and Enslavement for the Damisa-Sarki Coate's Black Panther
« Reply #4724 on: February 13, 2020, 06:41:31 pm »
And people wonder why Cooglers BP resonates so well.
It moves away fro. The tropes, speaks of respect, unity and black love. 


I don't completely agree. Though there was much to admire in the Black Panther film I also felt it threw shade on Black Americans, so much for unity.

How? The the only Black Americans from a story standpoint were the kids at the beginning and end. And maybe Killmongers girlfriend, but they never say where she is from.

Killmonger being a rage-filled monster, almost like a black brute from old. Whatever points he made were vastly outweighed by his rage, his cold murder of his girlfriend and his abuse of the Wakandan female elder could be something that came right out of an Oprah movie. Killmonger's disrespect for Wakanda and its customs, and it was like he was a wild 'akata' that needed to be civilized. I'm not going to say he was a black brute stereotype, but there were aspects there. A lesser actor than Michael B. Jordan might have took him over into that territory. Jordan, Coogler, and the script writer also imbued him with a sense of humanity and a reason for his rage which also kept him from being a black brute, and added complexity by making him super smart, dedicated, and cultured, and giving some legitimacy to his grievance at being left behind by the Wakandan side of his family. Curiously, the American side was never talked about.

The glimpses we got of Black America were all in the hood and I felt that Okoye's disdain for the wig she had to wear was also a jab at black women (perhaps not just American to be fair) who wear them or weaves. Further, the young kids were ignorant, not offensively so, but more along the line of a typical Hollywood idea/depiction of what black kids from the hood would act like. Thankfully they didn't try to rob T'Challa and Shuri.

So, when it came to Black America we got poverty, urban blight, and callous, self-destructive rage.

Interesting conundrum Emperorjones. Killmonger was every bit the villain and some of his anger and actions paralleled another MCU villain... Aldrich Killian. He too was passionately enraged; choked a woman, Pepper Potts; and even shot to death another woman,  Maya Hansen. For some reasons acts committed by Afrakans are programmed to be seen as more heinous. The distinction between the two is akin to Snoop's argument.

A saving grace for Killmonger's anger was that it was justified. This brings another part of the aforementioned conundrum to the forefront. The narrative that Afrakans on the continent did nothing or worse helped to enslave Afrakans that wound up in what would become the USA. There is hardly a whisper of Afrakans raiding the slave ports and freeing other Afrakans; destroying or taking over slave ships; forming self liberating communities throughout north and south America.

It is sad to think that the low self esteem and lack of appreciation for their own aesthetic has lead some Afrakan women (lest not forget the Afrakan men who reinforce such) to such extremes as straight hair weaves, perms and wigs. As such it makes perfect sense that an Afrakan woman not suffering from such would have disdain for having to wear that kind of wig. To me Okoye's statement was as much declarative as it was derogatory. As for the children were they not portrayed as those in the world outside your window?

This is the over arching thematic challenges in going forward in both comics and especially in film with the Black Panther. How to portray a never conquered, culturally autonomous, futuristic Afrakan centered super hero and his society? The difficulty in the ask is, who at Marvel is willing to accept the responsibility to course correct.
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