Author Topic: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa  (Read 12465 times)

Offline MindofShadow

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Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« on: June 28, 2016, 04:52:39 am »
As a Black Panther fanboy, Ultimates continues to disappoint me greatly. Many of my issues with this book, in regards to T'challa, is that the threats are beyond his power scale. His teammates include Superman and Wonder Woman types, a heroine made of light, and someone that can punch holes in dimensions.

So, when you get a chance to move beyond "punching people," T'challa should have his moment in the sun. He is the most dangerous man alive not because he can fly at super speed or punch planets... but because of his brain. He is one of the smartest people in the MU, he is calculated, a master planner, with the resources of Wakanda behind him. When he is with the Ultimates, he needs to become "Batgod."

 But, every time a moment in the book comes where HE should have the spotlight... Ewing decides to let other members take his shine instead. Whether its sharing Galactus-curing credit with Blue Marvel or this issue... letting Monica plan battle strategy.

T'challa is a damn king who is fought and led his people in WARS. He has proven to be one of the best strategic minds in the Marvel Universe. Why isn't he providing battle strategy here? Why isn't he giving his thoughts ont he subject?

The answer is simple... Ewing likes Monica and Blue Marvel. They are the "real" main characters of this book. T'challa is in this book to try and increase sales... nothing more, nothing less.

So, overall we get this again...

... T'challa standing around, in the background. We didn't even get a "T'challa reaction panel" to the botched mission (we got Monica's, Adam's, Carols, and even MAC's). This is just getting beyond frustrating and I want him on an Avengers proper book next relaunch please.


I continued discussing the Ultimates as a whole here: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-ultimates-8-spoilers-and-thoughts.html

Overally, i did feel it was one of the better issues of this book. But that isn't hard because they were actually interacting with the MU as a whole and not floating around in space pontificating.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 06:25:36 am »

T'challa is a damn king who is fought and led his people in WARS. He has proven to be one of the best strategic minds in the Marvel Universe. Why isn't he providing battle strategy here? Why isn't he giving his thoughts ont he subject?

When has he been proven to be one of the best strategic mind in the MU? 

This is actually T'Challa's problem.  One or two writers writing him and showing him being really strategic isn't enough to establish him as the master planner.  Hulk is the strongest because nearly every writer writes him that way; Batman is written as the batgod because more writers write him that way then don't.  Truth is, until most writers write him the Master Planner/Most Dangerous Man, then it's an empty title.

(So, yeah, Ewing needs to give him the opportunity to showcase his abilities.)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 06:28:54 am by KIP LEWIS »

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 06:37:51 am »

T'challa is a damn king who is fought and led his people in WARS. He has proven to be one of the best strategic minds in the Marvel Universe. Why isn't he providing battle strategy here? Why isn't he giving his thoughts ont he subject?

When has he been proven to be one of the best strategic mind in the MU? 

This is actually T'Challa's problem.  One of two writers writing him and showing him being really strategic isn't enough to establish him as the master planner.  Hulk is the strongest because nearly every writer writes him that way; Batman is written as the batgod because more writers write him that way then don't.  Truth is, until most writers write him the Master Planner/Most Dangerous Man, then it's an empty title.

(So, yeah, Ewing needs to give him the opportunity to showcase his abilities.)

It has been more than one or two writers.


- fighting F4 in his first appearance.
- defeating Klaw in vol 1 I think issue 15ish
- The 4 issue mini in volume 2
- Priest entire run
- Hudlins run to a lesser extent
- See Wakanda and Die
- Liss run, especially Kingpin of Wakanda
- T'challa galactus contigency plan used in the F4 issue 540 something
- plan to stop God Doom in SW


I am not up-to-date with the rest of the Ultimates roster's full comic history, but, do any of them even match that resume of planning?

T'challa is no Steve Rogers, mainly because he doesn't get to lead teams often/ever (and he is a different planner than Steve) but he certainly isn't a slouch in strategy.

But, yeah, the last sentence you wrote is the biggest issue. T'challa has a very specific skill set that the rest of the Ultimates do not have. He also can't do the things physically that they can do. So, it is imperative to use T'challa to his fullest abilities when he gets the chance.

Especially since Ewing is a Priest Black Panther fan. He got his general attitude down... but not the other parts of him.

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 06:49:46 am »

T'challa is a damn king who is fought and led his people in WARS. He has proven to be one of the best strategic minds in the Marvel Universe. Why isn't he providing battle strategy here? Why isn't he giving his thoughts ont he subject?

When has he been proven to be one of the best strategic mind in the MU? 

This is actually T'Challa's problem.  One of two writers writing him and showing him being really strategic isn't enough to establish him as the master planner.  Hulk is the strongest because nearly every writer writes him that way; Batman is written as the batgod because more writers write him that way then don't.  Truth is, until most writers write him the Master Planner/Most Dangerous Man, then it's an empty title.

(So, yeah, Ewing needs to give him the opportunity to showcase his abilities.)

It has been more than one or two writers.


- fighting F4 in his first appearance.
- defeating Klaw in vol 1 I think issue 15ish
- The 4 issue mini in volume 2
- Priest entire run
- Hudlins run to a lesser extent
- See Wakanda and Die
- Liss run, especially Kingpin of Wakanda
- T'challa galactus contigency plan used in the F4 issue 540 something
- plan to stop God Doom in SW


I am not up-to-date with the rest of the Ultimates roster's full comic history, but, do any of them even match that resume of planning?

T'challa is no Steve Rogers, mainly because he doesn't get to lead teams often/ever (and he is a different planner than Steve) but he certainly isn't a slouch in strategy.

But, yeah, the last sentence you wrote is the biggest issue. T'challa has a very specific skill set that the rest of the Ultimates do not have. He also can't do the things physically that they can do. So, it is imperative to use T'challa to his fullest abilities when he gets the chance.

Especially since Ewing is a Priest Black Panther fan. He got his general attitude down... but not the other parts of him.


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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 06:57:35 am »

T'challa is a damn king who is fought and led his people in WARS. He has proven to be one of the best strategic minds in the Marvel Universe. Why isn't he providing battle strategy here? Why isn't he giving his thoughts ont he subject?

When has he been proven to be one of the best strategic mind in the MU? 

This is actually T'Challa's problem.  One of two writers writing him and showing him being really strategic isn't enough to establish him as the master planner.  Hulk is the strongest because nearly every writer writes him that way; Batman is written as the batgod because more writers write him that way then don't.  Truth is, until most writers write him the Master Planner/Most Dangerous Man, then it's an empty title.

(So, yeah, Ewing needs to give him the opportunity to showcase his abilities.)

It has been more than one or two writers.


- fighting F4 in his first appearance.
- defeating Klaw in vol 1 I think issue 15ish
- The 4 issue mini in volume 2
- Priest entire run
- Hudlins run to a lesser extent
- See Wakanda and Die
- Liss run, especially Kingpin of Wakanda
- T'challa galactus contigency plan used in the F4 issue 540 something
- plan to stop God Doom in SW


I am not up-to-date with the rest of the Ultimates roster's full comic history, but, do any of them even match that resume of planning?

T'challa is no Steve Rogers, mainly because he doesn't get to lead teams often/ever (and he is a different planner than Steve) but he certainly isn't a slouch in strategy.

But, yeah, the last sentence you wrote is the biggest issue. T'challa has a very specific skill set that the rest of the Ultimates do not have. He also can't do the things physically that they can do. So, it is imperative to use T'challa to his fullest abilities when he gets the chance.

Especially since Ewing is a Priest Black Panther fan. He got his general attitude down... but not the other parts of him.

Most of the things you talk about are run if the mill super hero stuff.

His victory over the FF... Not really as impressive as people make it.  First it's a surprise; the FF were fighting an unknown, his people helped him set it up, he missed Wyatt which undid his whole plan so he could never finished his fight with Reed. 

Galactus contingency plan and all his other plans are just plans.  That plan has never been proven to work; BP didn't use the plan in the FF; he just used part the plan.  The full plan required the Hulk and Wakanda air force.  So until it actually is used and works, it proves nothing. Unlike Batman's plan; someone else used his plans and beat the JLA.  We need to see those plans used to prove they work.

See Wakanda and Die...I have said this many times... That story shows BP so stupid that he only won because the Skrull commander was even more stupid.  Remember, Aaron starts with the premise that Wakanda CANNOT beat the Skrulls in a fair fight.  And that is why he made it a Braveheart fight, while England won and so did the US. But he said Wakanda can't. 

Realize, I'm not saying he can't and isn't the master planner; I'm saying, not enough writers have this view of him. 

Oh, "one or two" isn't meant to be a literal phrase, just saying that when you look at all of the writers who have written BP over the years, only a fraction write him as a master planner.


Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 07:09:07 am »
Quote from: KIP LEWIS


See Wakanda and Die...I have said this many times... That story shows BP so stupid that he only won because the Skrull commander was even more stupid.  Remember, Aaron starts with the premise that Wakanda CANNOT beat the Skrulls in a fair fight.  And that is why he made it a Braveheart fight, while England won and so did the US. But he said Wakanda can't. 

If we threw out every plot induced stupid based feat, there would be a lot of dead heroes :)
Quote

Realize, I'm not saying he can't and isn't the master planner; I'm saying, not enough writers have this view of him. 



That is fair.

Ewing, being a Priest Panther fan, should be one of them though.

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2016, 07:22:47 am »
As a Black Panther fanboy, Ultimates continues to disappoint me greatly. Many of my issues with this book, in regards to T'challa, is that the threats are beyond his power scale. His teammates include Superman and Wonder Woman types, a heroine made of light, and someone that can punch holes in dimensions.

So, when you get a chance to move beyond "punching people," T'challa should have his moment in the sun. He is the most dangerous man alive not because he can fly at super speed or punch planets... but because of his brain. He is one of the smartest people in the MU, he is calculated, a master planner, with the resources of Wakanda behind him. When he is with the Ultimates, he needs to become "Batgod."

 But, every time a moment in the book comes where HE should have the spotlight... Ewing decides to let other members take his shine instead. Whether its sharing Galactus-curing credit with Blue Marvel or this issue... letting Monica plan battle strategy.

T'challa is a damn king who is fought and led his people in WARS. He has proven to be one of the best strategic minds in the Marvel Universe. Why isn't he providing battle strategy here? Why isn't he giving his thoughts ont he subject?

The answer is simple... Ewing likes Monica and Blue Marvel. They are the "real" main characters of this book. T'challa is in this book to try and increase sales... nothing more, nothing less.

So, overall we get this again...

... T'challa standing around, in the background. We didn't even get a "T'challa reaction panel" to the botched mission (we got Monica's, Adam's, Carols, and even MAC's). This is just getting beyond frustrating and I want him on an Avengers proper book next relaunch please.


I continued discussing the Ultimates as a whole here: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-ultimates-8-spoilers-and-thoughts.html

Overally, i did feel it was one of the better issues of this book. But that isn't hard because they were actually interacting with the MU as a whole and not floating around in space pontificating.


First off welcome to the HEF Mind! Second, Usully i would be bothered by how Monica just takes over and it feels like Ewing is making a point to say "Hey remember at some point she was supposedly a great tactical leader? Here you go" But in this case i am okay with it because it is a fumble and misstep and T'Challa doesn't need more of that noise. However, I am surprised to see that there wasn't some kind of word from him maybe speaking up offering more tactical advice that could of been ignored (Thus also causing the death of Rhodey) and being a small crack forming in the team.

I would love for Ewing to use this opportunity to Have T'Challa start taking a more active role in things, he is not liking the approach of late and that the team itself is taking too big of risks with dangerous prisoners (Anti-Man, Thanos) and starts working on some Contingency plans in secret. Or if he is going to start Showing MAC thinking she needs to shut the group down, have T'Challa notice her intent and start planning for it. Because while i can possibly see MAC shut down the rest of the team, i cannot see her stop T'Challa, especially CJP Panther that Ewing is drawing from. So i hope Ewing comes correct and makes T'Challa do some kick ass feats

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2016, 07:44:57 am »
Quote from: KIP LEWIS


Realize, I'm not saying he can't and isn't the master planner; I'm saying, not enough writers have this view of him. 



That is fair.

Ewing, being a Priest Panther fan, should be one of them though.

Yeah, because the only way these characteristics truly become defining characteristics (by which they are known) is when the majority of writers write him that way.  Ewing could lead the pack.  Coates isn't.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2016, 07:52:28 am »

Quote
However, I am surprised to see that there wasn't some kind of word from him maybe speaking up offering more tactical advice that could of been ignored (Thus also causing the death of Rhodey) and being a small crack forming in the team.

That would have been..... perfect.
Quote

I would love for Ewing to use this opportunity to Have T'Challa start taking a more active role in things, he is not liking the approach of late and that the team itself is taking too big of risks with dangerous prisoners (Anti-Man, Thanos) and starts working on some Contingency plans in secret. Or if he is going to start Showing MAC thinking she needs to shut the group down, have T'Challa notice her intent and start planning for it. Because while i can possibly see MAC shut down the rest of the team, i cannot see her stop T'Challa, especially CJP Panther that Ewing is drawing from. So i hope Ewing comes correct and makes T'Challa do some kick ass feats[/size][/b]

Agree with this 100%.

Need to start doing something interesting with him (and MAC really, she isn't doing anything but punching holes).

I just can't see T'challa joining a team like this without plans in place, especially after what happened last time he joined a group of very powerful people

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2016, 08:45:16 am »

T'challa is a damn king who is fought and led his people in WARS. He has proven to be one of the best strategic minds in the Marvel Universe. Why isn't he providing battle strategy here? Why isn't he giving his thoughts ont he subject?

When has he been proven to be one of the best strategic mind in the MU? 

This is actually T'Challa's problem.  One of two writers writing him and showing him being really strategic isn't enough to establish him as the master planner.  Hulk is the strongest because nearly every writer writes him that way; Batman is written as the batgod because more writers write him that way then don't.  Truth is, until most writers write him the Master Planner/Most Dangerous Man, then it's an empty title.

(So, yeah, Ewing needs to give him the opportunity to showcase his abilities.)

It has been more than one or two writers.


- fighting F4 in his first appearance.
- defeating Klaw in vol 1 I think issue 15ish
- The 4 issue mini in volume 2
- Priest entire run
- Hudlins run to a lesser extent
- See Wakanda and Die
- Liss run, especially Kingpin of Wakanda
- T'challa galactus contigency plan used in the F4 issue 540 something
- plan to stop God Doom in SW


I am not up-to-date with the rest of the Ultimates roster's full comic history, but, do any of them even match that resume of planning?

T'challa is no Steve Rogers, mainly because he doesn't get to lead teams often/ever (and he is a different planner than Steve) but he certainly isn't a slouch in strategy.

But, yeah, the last sentence you wrote is the biggest issue. T'challa has a very specific skill set that the rest of the Ultimates do not have. He also can't do the things physically that they can do. So, it is imperative to use T'challa to his fullest abilities when he gets the chance.

Especially since Ewing is a Priest Black Panther fan. He got his general attitude down... but not the other parts of him.

Most of the things you talk about are run if the mill super hero stuff.

His victory over the FF... Not really as impressive as people make it.  First it's a surprise; the FF were fighting an unknown, his people helped him set it up, he missed Wyatt which undid his whole plan so he could never finished his fight with Reed. 

Galactus contingency plan and all his other plans are just plans.  That plan has never been proven to work; BP didn't use the plan in the FF; he just used part the plan.  The full plan required the Hulk and Wakanda air force.  So until it actually is used and works, it proves nothing. Unlike Batman's plan; someone else used his plans and beat the JLA.  We need to see those plans used to prove they work.

See Wakanda and Die...I have said this many times... That story shows BP so stupid that he only won because the Skrull commander was even more stupid.  Remember, Aaron starts with the premise that Wakanda CANNOT beat the Skrulls in a fair fight.  And that is why he made it a Braveheart fight, while England won and so did the US. But he said Wakanda can't. 

Realize, I'm not saying he can't and isn't the master planner; I'm saying, not enough writers have this view of him. 

Oh, "one or two" isn't meant to be a literal phrase, just saying that when you look at all of the writers who have written BP over the years, only a fraction write him as a master planner.

Im sorry i just read the See Wakanda and Die issues again and i don't see anywhere stating Wakanada couldn't win in a fair fight. Skrulls didn't attack from the skies (which they would of been stopped anyways, I highly doubt T'Challa, Especially after being in skrull cities/ universes, wouldn't have plans for Stopping orbital attacks. I get the tactical stupidity of the approaches being made. I would of much rather liked to see the Wakandan Orbital Defense systems shoot the Skrull fleets out the skie and force them down into a weapons brawl, such as a fleet twice the size that we saw and Wakandan defenses takes out half of the fleet and grounds the rest while at the same time the golden city loses its power too. Bringing it to what we saw in the issues. It establishes that the Skrulls didn't think they would be this powerful and still has the h2h aspect

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 09:06:25 am »

Quote
However, I am surprised to see that there wasn't some kind of word from him maybe speaking up offering more tactical advice that could of been ignored (Thus also causing the death of Rhodey) and being a small crack forming in the team.

That would have been..... perfect.
Quote

I would love for Ewing to use this opportunity to Have T'Challa start taking a more active role in things, he is not liking the approach of late and that the team itself is taking too big of risks with dangerous prisoners (Anti-Man, Thanos) and starts working on some Contingency plans in secret. Or if he is going to start Showing MAC thinking she needs to shut the group down, have T'Challa notice her intent and start planning for it. Because while i can possibly see MAC shut down the rest of the team, i cannot see her stop T'Challa, especially CJP Panther that Ewing is drawing from. So i hope Ewing comes correct and makes T'Challa do some kick ass feats[/size][/b]

Agree with this 100%.

Need to start doing something interesting with him (and MAC really, she isn't doing anything but punching holes).

I just can't see T'challa joining a team like this without plans in place, especially after what happened last time he joined a group of very powerful people

I mean.. We have seen the rift with him and BM already with Anti man. This would of been the perfect opportunity, T'challa states a plan involving more long ranged attacks against Thanos rather then up close (he is the mad titan, trading blows with the likes of Odin and the Hulk for crying out loud) and Monica insists that her plan is sound. When it fails T'challa starts questioning the lack of taking his advice given he is a military leader/ warrior king taking on threats just as dangerous if not more and having plans for it (also Carol asked both Monica and T'Challa and Monica spoke up) and inquires that maybe she ignored it out of possibly being over confident/ underestimating Thanos a little. To which BM steps in on her defense and argues with T'Challa, further forming the tension to that as well.

As for plans yes T'Challa would have some in place especially after being with the Illuminate with IMO is much more powerful then this group. AND considering 60% of the members on his team had issues with what he was doing in TRO and established hard feelings, he would have plans set for in case he needs to shut them down himself (Just like MAC is thinking). And who knows maybe that plan could partially involve MAC and that he could see her being a piece in his plan to shut them down, with her unknowingly following her plans rather then her own. THATS what Priests Panther would do and what i would expect Ewing to pick up on.   

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 10:10:24 am »
Enzo, Aaron said that in one of his interviews leading up to Secret Invasion, that Wakanda couldn't win in a straight fight against the Skrulls.  (Of course I have to accept the possibility that he was misquoted.)


Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2016, 10:21:13 am »
Quote

Im sorry i just read the See Wakanda and Die issues again and i don't see anywhere stating Wakanada couldn't win in a fair fight. Skrulls didn't attack from the skies (which they would of been stopped anyways, I highly doubt T'Challa, Especially after being in skrull cities/ universes, wouldn't have plans for Stopping orbital attacks.

THey do, at least in hickman's run they did

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 10:52:21 am »
Enzo, Aaron said that in one of his interviews leading up to Secret Invasion, that Wakanda couldn't win in a straight fight against the Skrulls.  (Of course I have to accept the possibility that he was misquoted.)

Ah I see, Well it just seems a little odd considering There wasn't mention of Wakanda being unable to take on the skrulls and especially after seeing them rebel Thanos Army i have little doubt that if Aaron told the story of the Skrulls trying an aerial bombardment, they would of been soundly knocked out of the sky, and caught off guard. I mean in a straight tech vs tech Skrulls would be more advanced, but T'Challa deals with the unknown and is prepared, if he has plans for Galactus he has plans for Skrulls. Its just the plot for getting them on a h2h field was a bit basic in the strategy and more about showcases h2h rather then genius intellect to the masterful degrees that we have seen. 

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Ultimates #8 continues to misuse (not use) T'challa
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2016, 01:31:23 pm »
Enzo, Aaron said that in one of his interviews leading up to Secret Invasion, that Wakanda couldn't win in a straight fight against the Skrulls.  (Of course I have to accept the possibility that he was misquoted.)

And really, its kind of irrelevant anyway. What matters is what is on panel.

But, I thought it was implied by T'challa's urgency that they needed to take their tech down though

But, either or, he succeeded so it is kinda moot.