Author Topic: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion  (Read 35691 times)

Offline The Wakandan

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #75 on: August 11, 2016, 07:42:52 am »
Just read issue 5. This is much more like it. It's not great but it's starting to get good.

The crazy thing about this issue is that it has a lot of positives, imho.

-Art is on point. Sprouse is doing his thing.
-The issue is well-written, imho.
-This issue flowed very well. Far better than the previous issues.
-This is the most amount of focus T'Challa has received this entire run. Even more than #4.
-This issue actually had a good start, all things considered. T'Challa appeared assertive, in command, and in control. Momentum seemed to finally be on his side.
-Those who are Shuri fans or care about Shuri get to see more of her journey. Still vague at the moment but there is a build up.
-T'Challa's convo with the captive was very intriguing. The captive threw verbal shots at him about stuff that went down in the previous events. T'Challa turns the convo around in a very unexpected way and took control of the conversation. He even manages to convince the captive to agree to a pact, something the captive clearly had no intention of doing a few seconds ago. This is an example of how unpredictable this book can be, but this time is was quite positive.

Then there are the negatives.

-Shuri's journey is still very vague. No idea at all were its headed. Willing to be patient but its moving very slowly. Perhaps too slowly for some readers.

Then there is the "wtf..." :-X

-The meeting. We've all addressed this one. It just doesn't fit the character of T'Challa, imho. It def doesn't fit the historical interpretation of his advisors, who are generally more hard line and/or xenophobic than he is. Even those who don't fit that mold generally prefer not to have foreigners involved in their affairs.

Yet, in a situation in which T'Challa is receiving a big amount of scrutiny for his past affiliations with foreigners, his advisors suggests he meets with foreign counter-revolutionary experts...in (it appears) Wakandan soil. Then to top it off, this experts are part of dictatorships, despots, or other various forms of oppressive regimes.

As it's been mentioned before, unless there is something about that meeting that is revealed...it's just very, very, very weird for T'Challa to agree to this meeting. He's dealt with coups before. He's even dealt with alien invasions and even existence being in jeopardy itself. Not saying that this situation doesn't have its unique problems, but to the point that he or his advisors would agree to such a meeting? And then a meeting with those guys in particular? Then it appears that holding that meeting blew up in his face, unless again there something about that meeting we won't know about, which I doubt.

Honestly, it's like I said before in my initial review of this issue. A lot of longtime fans will have to strongly consider dropping the book or wait for the big trade (all 12 issues in one book) to avoid the month-to-month grind, if they haven't done so yet. There will be longtime fans that will like this book and that's fine. This book has positives, and in some cases pleasant surprises.

But this book is also redefining a loooooot of key things about T'Challa and Wakanda,and even what a "BP book" is. And those redefinitions are very likely not going to be liked or even tolerated by a lot of the longtime fans. I recall a lengthy interview Coates did about this run in which the interviewer warned Coates more than once that his approach to T'Challa and Wakanda will most likely not be liked by many longtime fans. That interviewer was on the money.

Strange times are ahead of us everyone.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:00:38 am by The Wakandan »

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #76 on: August 11, 2016, 08:17:50 am »
Just read issue 5. This is much more like it. It's not great but it's starting to get good.


The crazy thing about this issue is that it has a lot of positives, imho.

-Art is on point. Sprouse is doing his thing.
-The issue is well-written, imho.
-This issue flowed very well. Far better than the previous issues.
-This is the most amount of focus T'Challa has received this entire run. Even more than #4.
-This issue actually had a good start, all things considered. T'Challa appeared assertive, in command, and in control. Momentum seemed to finally be on his side.
-Those who are Shuri fans or care about Shuri get to see more of her journey. Still vague at the moment but there is a build up.
-T'Challa's convo with the captive was very intriguing. The captive threw verbal shots at him about stuff that went down in the previous events. T'Challa turns the convo around in a very unexpected way and took control of the conversation. He even manages to convince the captive to agree to a pact, something the captive clearly had no intention of doing a few seconds ago. This is an example of how unpredictable this book can be, but this time is was quite positive.




Just like Hickman's run.....

Individually, there were numerous things to like in Hickman's run. The scope of the story was huge. The art was stunning. T'challa was clearly super powered. He had some more tech as well as the return of the daggers. Hickman pretty much brought back Vibranium. He had some genius level feats (life raft, help make the bombs).

I found the Namor/T'challa interaction great honestly until Hickman didn't follow through.

So you could isolate things that were GREAT.

But overall? Big picture?

- he razed Wakanda
- He killed shuri off panel
- he never reconciled the shuri/tchalla relationship on panel
- he didn't have T'challa kill namor
- he botched the cry scene imo
- he didn't reconcile the tchalla/namor relationship on panel
- he didn't reconcile the Wakanda/world relationship (Coates HAS HAS HAs to touch on that no?)
- he had tchalla act completely OOC at the beginning (lying to Shuri) then at the end (letting Namor wake up)
- His ending was a complete mess


Offline Salustrade

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #77 on: August 11, 2016, 08:31:42 am »
Anyone suprised at what Coates has done with T'Challa, is simply living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Offline Blanks

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #78 on: August 11, 2016, 01:48:31 pm »
I'm.... I dunno. I kinda read like a Priest issue. I dunno. At first I was like cool. I guess now I'm.... Cautiously optimistic after reading issue 5? I dunno. This issue had a lot of positive, but all the negative from the previous 4 still linger.

I'm at least gonna hang on until this "Crew" crossover.

I got more enjoyment honestly though out of Vol.4 of Priests trade which chronicled Kasper's run, which I also picked up yesterday.

Offline The Wakandan

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2016, 04:00:02 pm »
Just read issue 5. This is much more like it. It's not great but it's starting to get good.


The crazy thing about this issue is that it has a lot of positives, imho.

-Art is on point. Sprouse is doing his thing.
-The issue is well-written, imho.
-This issue flowed very well. Far better than the previous issues.
-This is the most amount of focus T'Challa has received this entire run. Even more than #4.
-This issue actually had a good start, all things considered. T'Challa appeared assertive, in command, and in control. Momentum seemed to finally be on his side.
-Those who are Shuri fans or care about Shuri get to see more of her journey. Still vague at the moment but there is a build up.
-T'Challa's convo with the captive was very intriguing. The captive threw verbal shots at him about stuff that went down in the previous events. T'Challa turns the convo around in a very unexpected way and took control of the conversation. He even manages to convince the captive to agree to a pact, something the captive clearly had no intention of doing a few seconds ago. This is an example of how unpredictable this book can be, but this time is was quite positive.




Just like Hickman's run.....

Individually, there were numerous things to like in Hickman's run. The scope of the story was huge. The art was stunning. T'challa was clearly super powered. He had some more tech as well as the return of the daggers. Hickman pretty much brought back Vibranium. He had some genius level feats (life raft, help make the bombs).

I found the Namor/T'challa interaction great honestly until Hickman didn't follow through.

So you could isolate things that were GREAT.

But overall? Big picture?

- he razed Wakanda
- He killed shuri off panel
- he never reconciled the shuri/tchalla relationship on panel
- he didn't have T'challa kill namor
- he botched the cry scene imo
- he didn't reconcile the tchalla/namor relationship on panel
- he didn't reconcile the Wakanda/world relationship (Coates HAS HAS HAs to touch on that no?)
- he had tchalla act completely OOC at the beginning (lying to Shuri) then at the end (letting Namor wake up)
- His ending was a complete mess




That Bush quote never gets old lol.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2016, 10:17:52 am »

XPAC is one of the biggest, two faced assholes posting in the BP Appreciation thread over on CBR and one of the things he specializes in doing is downplaying any and all of T'Challa's achievments whilst throwing shade at pro-BP mythos posters under the half full, half empty guise of praising Marvel for "raising" T'Challa's profile in the MU due to his increased appearance in events and other books.

The fact that this supposedly raised profile is actually coming at T'Challa's expense is a fact that XPAC is fully aware of but to most people unaware of his posting history over the years, few realise that he laughs at gullible posters not hip to his game whilst he seeks to belittle the genuine concerns of actual BP enthusiasts on the sly.

CBR mods are always looking for even the slightest opportunity to ban BP enthusiasts on a whim and some posters know this which is why they tend to use the old "I don't feel comfortable posting here" ploy to get other posters banned  just because their debating skills don't stand up to scrutiny.   

WOW! How did I effing know it was that passive-aggressive sh*tbird/troll?

XPAC isn't a BP fan. I remember someone exposing him a few years ago as a complete fraud, as he didn't even know that Sofija migrated to Wakanda during Liss' run. He flatout stated that she DIDN'T, and was dead silent when the scan was posted that stated otherwise. I think it was in a "Wakanda vs. Latvera" thread, where he was obviously against Wakanda.

XPAC has been trolling the BP Appreciation threads for years right under the noses of some of the gullible posters who see "negativity" everywhere as opposed to realising how well he plays them like T'Challa being played for the biggest of fools in BP#5.


The amount of mental gymnastics that goes on in that thread these days... idk how much I will even going to hang around it when my banishment has ended.

it is one thing to having opposing views and back them up with legitimate reasons. I mean sh*t, The Wakandan and E like the book a bit more than you and others do (and probably myself but im prolly more on the negative side) and Mr. Vega and some others have perfectly valid points...

but then you have this subset of 5ish posters who take every panel of Coates and justify it by twisting sh*t from the past, miss remembering sh*t from the past and then not owning it when scans are posted, or bringing up stuff from the 60's (if I see "he was a school teacher!!!" one more time I might vomit.) that was essentially retconnd... I mean wtf? Or, even better, bringing in "real world" aspects so its ok to place them in Wakanda! Coates just keepin' it real!

its vomit inducing at times.

at least the minority thread keeps it real

Offline Salustrade

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2016, 12:04:58 pm »

XPAC is one of the biggest, two faced assholes posting in the BP Appreciation thread over on CBR and one of the things he specializes in doing is downplaying any and all of T'Challa's achievments whilst throwing shade at pro-BP mythos posters under the half full, half empty guise of praising Marvel for "raising" T'Challa's profile in the MU due to his increased appearance in events and other books.

The fact that this supposedly raised profile is actually coming at T'Challa's expense is a fact that XPAC is fully aware of but to most people unaware of his posting history over the years, few realise that he laughs at gullible posters not hip to his game whilst he seeks to belittle the genuine concerns of actual BP enthusiasts on the sly.

CBR mods are always looking for even the slightest opportunity to ban BP enthusiasts on a whim and some posters know this which is why they tend to use the old "I don't feel comfortable posting here" ploy to get other posters banned  just because their debating skills don't stand up to scrutiny.   

WOW! How did I effing know it was that passive-aggressive sh*tbird/troll?

XPAC isn't a BP fan. I remember someone exposing him a few years ago as a complete fraud, as he didn't even know that Sofija migrated to Wakanda during Liss' run. He flatout stated that she DIDN'T, and was dead silent when the scan was posted that stated otherwise. I think it was in a "Wakanda vs. Latvera" thread, where he was obviously against Wakanda.

XPAC has been trolling the BP Appreciation threads for years right under the noses of some of the gullible posters who see "negativity" everywhere as opposed to realising how well he plays them like T'Challa being played for the biggest of fools in BP#5.


The amount of mental gymnastics that goes on in that thread these days... idk how much I will even going to hang around it when my banishment has ended.

it is one thing to having opposing views and back them up with legitimate reasons. I mean sh*t, The Wakandan and E like the book a bit more than you and others do (and probably myself but im prolly more on the negative side) and Mr. Vega and some others have perfectly valid points...

but then you have this subset of 5ish posters who take every panel of Coates and justify it by twisting sh*t from the past, miss remembering sh*t from the past and then not owning it when scans are posted, or bringing up stuff from the 60's (if I see "he was a school teacher!!!" one more time I might vomit.) that was essentially retconnd... I mean wtf? Or, even better, bringing in "real world" aspects so its ok to place them in Wakanda! Coates just keepin' it real!

its vomit inducing at times.

at least the minority thread keeps it real

Booshman was 100% about Xpac being a troll.

He never owns up when his blatant lies and distortions are revealeed as being such when scans are posted to refute his nonsensical statements and that to me, is clear evidence to effect that his says stuff just to get a rise out of posters.

Offline Booshman

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2016, 01:19:45 pm »

Booshman was 100% about Xpac being a troll.

He never owns up when his blatant lies and distortions are revealeed as being such when scans are posted to refute his nonsensical statements and that to me, is clear evidence to effect that his says stuff just to get a rise out of posters.

I used to go at that fool HARD. He's a complete fraud, and I would constantly referr to him as a "fake fan"/"unfan". Especially when he would constantly side with Atlantis no matter what, in the New Avengers threads, and be a pathetic apologist for their crimes. And doubly so when he would scold T'challa, whenever he wouldn't turn the other cheek and went on the offensive. Regardless of the transgression.

The only reason he's still posting there and isn't banned is because he runs to the mods when his passive-aggressive BS is called out, and they coddle/protect him more than the Marvel Editorial protects Dr. Doom.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2016, 02:43:20 pm »

Booshman was 100% about Xpac being a troll.

He never owns up when his blatant lies and distortions are revealeed as being such when scans are posted to refute his nonsensical statements and that to me, is clear evidence to effect that his says stuff just to get a rise out of posters.

I used to go at that fool HARD. He's a complete fraud, and I would constantly referr to him as a "fake fan"/"unfan". Especially when he would constantly side with Atlantis no matter what, in the New Avengers threads, and be a pathetic apologist for their crimes. And doubly so when he would scold T'challa, whenever he wouldn't turn the other cheek and went on the offensive. Regardless of the transgression.

The only reason he's still posting there and isn't banned is because he runs to the mods when his passive-aggressive BS is called out, and they coddle/protect him more than the Marvel Editorial protects Dr. Doom.

Unfortunately, some gullible posters fail to see this and just stay endorsing his rubbish.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2016, 05:00:56 pm »
My take having fully read issue #5...

- T'Challa's use of Manifold was inventive, out of the box thinking which I can get behind.
- T'Challa giving out free chin checks!?!  Nah, out of character, violation!
- Seeking council from foreign counter revolutionary security chiefs...NO... I'll come back to this.
- Shuri in the Djalia...WTH!?!...I don't know what's going on here?
- T'Challa's interrogation of the captured suicide bomber was indeed the best part despite further rehashing of Hickman/T'Challa's sins. 

Long time fans should recognize Coates' channeling of Preist/Panther from The Client telling the would be suicide bomber 'they will have a pact, speak of it to know man.'  Frankly, I'm not sure if that is more homage or plagiarism?  That brings me back to this counter revolutionary council which reminded me of a whack version of T'Challa's Sturm und Drang conference with Doom, Magneto, Lord Ghaur and Namor.  Unlike that conference, Coates' version is way out of character, only making sense as a device to set up the Tetu/Stane gambit for further usurping Wakandan confidence in T'Challa's commitment to Wakandans.  Coates/Sprouse legitimize for the reader T'Challa's interest in the advice of these foreigners by having him lean in and ask Genosha's chief of thuggery, "Tell me," regarding their techniques for quashing revolutions.  Easily the most disturbing scene other than the chin checks and inadequately abated by later exposition that T'Challa, off panel, rejected all such advice. 

For a genius writer Coates seems to be having a really hard time, in this medium, laying out what few positives about T'Challa he is willing to convey to this point of his story!?!  Instead he is very effective at emphasizing T'Challa's faults and the main premise, which he does again with this ill-conceived council as Alexie of Symkaria, on panel claims their common tradition is "...holding a nation under our feet."  This faulty premise is the root of Coates' problems with this book.  Wakanda was always, from Stan and Jack's origin, a warrior's meritocracy giving any Wakandan access to the throne if he or she were capable of taking it.  He could call B.S. on the royal family's advantage from the heart-shaped herb, but to paint the monarchy as an oppressive, hereditary fascist regime, exposed as such due to an inability at last to defend the country against overwhelming foreign threats was misguided and appears to be self-serving.  Lest I seem an overly harsh critic of Mr. Coates for whom I had high hopes, I want to be clear that Chris Robinson, Wil Moss and Tom Brevoort, IMO, deserve a large amount of blame as editors who've allowed T'Challa and Wakanda to be so mischaracterized.  I'm hard pressed, having heard Coates' plans and read the results to date, to see what if anything any of them have had to do with the book produced?

I'm extremely disappointed and just about done with Marvel Comics which despite having BP on the verge of huge cinematic success have the character appearing regularly in two sub par, sub standard comics, Ultimates which has no action and Black Panther which makes no sense.

No peace,

Mont

Offline Salustrade

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2016, 12:57:30 pm »
My take having fully read issue #5...

- T'Challa's use of Manifold was inventive, out of the box thinking which I can get behind.
- T'Challa giving out free chin checks!?!  Nah, out of character, violation!
- Seeking council from foreign counter revolutionary security chiefs...NO... I'll come back to this.
- Shuri in the Djalia...WTH!?!...I don't know what's going on here?
- T'Challa's interrogation of the captured suicide bomber was indeed the best part despite further rehashing of Hickman/T'Challa's sins. 

Long time fans should recognize Coates' channeling of Preist/Panther from The Client telling the would be suicide bomber 'they will have a pact, speak of it to know man.'  Frankly, I'm not sure if that is more homage or plagiarism?  That brings me back to this counter revolutionary council which reminded me of a whack version of T'Challa's Sturm und Drang conference with Doom, Magneto, Lord Ghaur and Namor.  Unlike that conference, Coates' version is way out of character, only making sense as a device to set up the Tetu/Stane gambit for further usurping Wakandan confidence in T'Challa's commitment to Wakandans.  Coates/Sprouse legitimize for the reader T'Challa's interest in the advice of these foreigners by having him lean in and ask Genosha's chief of thuggery, "Tell me," regarding their techniques for quashing revolutions.  Easily the most disturbing scene other than the chin checks and inadequately abated by later exposition that T'Challa, off panel, rejected all such advice. 

For a genius writer Coates seems to be having a really hard time, in this medium, laying out what few positives about T'Challa he is willing to convey to this point of his story!?!  Instead he is very effective at emphasizing T'Challa's faults and the main premise, which he does again with this ill-conceived council as Alexie of Symkaria, on panel claims their common tradition is "...holding a nation under our feet."  This faulty premise is the root of Coates' problems with this book.  Wakanda was always, from Stan and Jack's origin, a warrior's meritocracy giving any Wakandan access to the throne if he or she were capable of taking it.  He could call B.S. on the royal family's advantage from the heart-shaped herb, but to paint the monarchy as an oppressive, hereditary fascist regime, exposed as such due to an inability at last to defend the country against overwhelming foreign threats was misguided and appears to be self-serving.  Lest I seem an overly harsh critic of Mr. Coates for whom I had high hopes, I want to be clear that Chris Robinson, Wil Moss and Tom Brevoort, IMO, deserve a large amount of blame as editors who've allowed T'Challa and Wakanda to be so mischaracterized.  I'm hard pressed, having heard Coates' plans and read the results to date, to see what if anything any of them have had to do with the book produced?

I'm extremely disappointed and just about done with Marvel Comics which despite having BP on the verge of huge cinematic success have the character appearing regularly in two sub par, sub standard comics, Ultimates which has no action and Black Panther which makes no sense.

No peace,

Mont

Excellent post my brother.  8)

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2016, 07:19:10 pm »
Thanks Brother Sal!  I am so disappointed with Marvel's refusal, still after almost a decade, to give Panther his just due, on page as a comic book superhero, who also happens to be a King.  Whatever their machinations I've thrown too much good money after a weak ass product that has delivered more frustration than anything else.  Clearly Marvel doesn't give a sh!# about me, you or those like us who've suffered too long.  It's equally obvious that my hopes for a long overdue, on panel, T'Challa resurgence relevant to the medium that I love has been superseded by a rookie comic book writer's personal agenda and a disinterested editorial staff with no intention of intervening on the best interest of T'Challa nor Wakanda.

No peace,

Mont

Offline Rurouni KJS

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2016, 07:49:36 am »
Just read issue 5. This is much more like it. It's not great but it's starting to get good.

The crazy thing about this issue is that it has a lot of positives, imho.

-Art is on point. Sprouse is doing his thing.
-The issue is well-written, imho.
-This issue flowed very well. Far better than the previous issues.
-This is the most amount of focus T'Challa has received this entire run. Even more than #4.
-This issue actually had a good start, all things considered. T'Challa appeared assertive, in command, and in control. Momentum seemed to finally be on his side.
-Those who are Shuri fans or care about Shuri get to see more of her journey. Still vague at the moment but there is a build up.
-T'Challa's convo with the captive was very intriguing. The captive threw verbal shots at him about stuff that went down in the previous events. T'Challa turns the convo around in a very unexpected way and took control of the conversation. He even manages to convince the captive to agree to a pact, something the captive clearly had no intention of doing a few seconds ago. This is an example of how unpredictable this book can be, but this time is was quite positive.

Then there are the negatives.

-Shuri's journey is still very vague. No idea at all were its headed. Willing to be patient but its moving very slowly. Perhaps too slowly for some readers.

Then there is the "wtf..." :-X

-The meeting. We've all addressed this one. It just doesn't fit the character of T'Challa, imho. It def doesn't fit the historical interpretation of his advisors, who are generally more hard line and/or xenophobic than he is. Even those who don't fit that mold generally prefer not to have foreigners involved in their affairs.

Yet, in a situation in which T'Challa is receiving a big amount of scrutiny for his past affiliations with foreigners, his advisors suggests he meets with foreign counter-revolutionary experts...in (it appears) Wakandan soil. Then to top it off, this experts are part of dictatorships, despots, or other various forms of oppressive regimes.

As it's been mentioned before, unless there is something about that meeting that is revealed...it's just very, very, very weird for T'Challa to agree to this meeting. He's dealt with coups before. He's even dealt with alien invasions and even existence being in jeopardy itself. Not saying that this situation doesn't have its unique problems, but to the point that he or his advisors would agree to such a meeting? And then a meeting with those guys in particular? Then it appears that holding that meeting blew up in his face, unless again there something about that meeting we won't know about, which I doubt.

Honestly, it's like I said before in my initial review of this issue. A lot of longtime fans will have to strongly consider dropping the book or wait for the big trade (all 12 issues in one book) to avoid the month-to-month grind, if they haven't done so yet. There will be longtime fans that will like this book and that's fine. This book has positives, and in some cases pleasant surprises.

But this book is also redefining a loooooot of key things about T'Challa and Wakanda,and even what a "BP book" is. And those redefinitions are very likely not going to be liked or even tolerated by a lot of the longtime fans. I recall a lengthy interview Coates did about this run in which the interviewer warned Coates more than once that his approach to T'Challa and Wakanda will most likely not be liked by many longtime fans. That interviewer was on the money.

Strange times are ahead of us everyone.
Everything The Wakandan said here. EVERY. THING.

If issue 5 of this series had been issue 3, I'd be so much happier with this series.

At this point, I'm a ride or die Panther fan. Being intolerant of some of the BS that even well-intentioned writers have saddled him with has caused me to miss some great Panther stories.

For instance, I was so mad at the BS Hudlin did in the beginning of his run (essentially retconning Priest run away, wholesale ignoring Marvel continuity, setting up replacement by Shuri, the rushed Storm marriage) that I missed the flat out fun of his run.

I was so mad at the removal as king of Wakanda that I skipped the whole Liss run that I now, frankly, think rivals Priest's as the best Panther's ever had.

And Priest's run faltered there at the end. But I stuck with it and got a fun if truncated story in The Crew out of it.

It remains to be seen which end of the continuum this arc ends up on... BS or great. There's a lot of the former in Coates' BP (see much of issue 2, all of issue 3) but there are hints of greatness as his command of the medium, shaky at first, grows more assured.

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2016, 08:21:22 am »
Just read issue 5. This is much more like it. It's not great but it's starting to get good.

The crazy thing about this issue is that it has a lot of positives, imho.

-Art is on point. Sprouse is doing his thing.
-The issue is well-written, imho.
-This issue flowed very well. Far better than the previous issues.
-This is the most amount of focus T'Challa has received this entire run. Even more than #4.
-This issue actually had a good start, all things considered. T'Challa appeared assertive, in command, and in control. Momentum seemed to finally be on his side.
-Those who are Shuri fans or care about Shuri get to see more of her journey. Still vague at the moment but there is a build up.
-T'Challa's convo with the captive was very intriguing. The captive threw verbal shots at him about stuff that went down in the previous events. T'Challa turns the convo around in a very unexpected way and took control of the conversation. He even manages to convince the captive to agree to a pact, something the captive clearly had no intention of doing a few seconds ago. This is an example of how unpredictable this book can be, but this time is was quite positive.

Then there are the negatives.

-Shuri's journey is still very vague. No idea at all were its headed. Willing to be patient but its moving very slowly. Perhaps too slowly for some readers.

Then there is the "wtf..." :-X

-The meeting. We've all addressed this one. It just doesn't fit the character of T'Challa, imho. It def doesn't fit the historical interpretation of his advisors, who are generally more hard line and/or xenophobic than he is. Even those who don't fit that mold generally prefer not to have foreigners involved in their affairs.

Yet, in a situation in which T'Challa is receiving a big amount of scrutiny for his past affiliations with foreigners, his advisors suggests he meets with foreign counter-revolutionary experts...in (it appears) Wakandan soil. Then to top it off, this experts are part of dictatorships, despots, or other various forms of oppressive regimes.

As it's been mentioned before, unless there is something about that meeting that is revealed...it's just very, very, very weird for T'Challa to agree to this meeting. He's dealt with coups before. He's even dealt with alien invasions and even existence being in jeopardy itself. Not saying that this situation doesn't have its unique problems, but to the point that he or his advisors would agree to such a meeting? And then a meeting with those guys in particular? Then it appears that holding that meeting blew up in his face, unless again there something about that meeting we won't know about, which I doubt.

Honestly, it's like I said before in my initial review of this issue. A lot of longtime fans will have to strongly consider dropping the book or wait for the big trade (all 12 issues in one book) to avoid the month-to-month grind, if they haven't done so yet. There will be longtime fans that will like this book and that's fine. This book has positives, and in some cases pleasant surprises.

But this book is also redefining a loooooot of key things about T'Challa and Wakanda,and even what a "BP book" is. And those redefinitions are very likely not going to be liked or even tolerated by a lot of the longtime fans. I recall a lengthy interview Coates did about this run in which the interviewer warned Coates more than once that his approach to T'Challa and Wakanda will most likely not be liked by many longtime fans. That interviewer was on the money.

Strange times are ahead of us everyone.
Everything The Wakandan said here. EVERY. THING.

If issue 5 of this series had been issue 3, I'd be so much happier with this series.

At this point, I'm a ride or die Panther fan. Being intolerant of some of the BS that even well-intentioned writers have saddled him with has caused me to miss some great Panther stories.

For instance, I was so mad at the BS Hudlin did in the beginning of his run (essentially retconning Priest run away, wholesale ignoring Marvel continuity, setting up replacement by Shuri, the rushed Storm marriage) that I missed the flat out fun of his run.

I was so mad at the removal as king of Wakanda that I skipped the whole Liss run that I now, frankly, think rivals Priest's as the best Panther's ever had.

And Priest's run faltered there at the end. But I stuck with it and got a fun if truncated story in The Crew out of it.

It remains to be seen which end of the continuum this arc ends up on... BS or great. There's a lot of the former in Coates' BP (see much of issue 2, all of issue 3) but there are hints of greatness as his command of the medium, shaky at first, grows more assured.

I will say, Like Hudlin, I think Priests run only Faltred at the end because of pressure from the higher ups. They wanted a more "Street" Panther and someone more palatable to the white male audience, that they essentially told him to revamp Panther, or your out. If the book had more support i don't think the ending would of happened the way it did, Same with Hudlin, the support started to falter and in a last minute decision to make sure, like Priests support characters, Shuri didn't fall by the wayside, the events to DW happened.

In Coates story what i would like to see would be for him to (at this point) do a reverse of what happened to Priest and Hudlin. He is after T'Chala start on a low point and so he needs to REALLY make sure that his big finale isn't just a bunch of hot air and smelly S%#t warped in some better then thou mindset that he has weaved this intricate and poetic tale and thinks that he somehow elevated T'Challa and Wakanda a new height.

He needs to actually SHOW T'Challa winning. Now saying he is winning and showing otherwise is old and he needs to produce something good. But i am not very hopeful at the moment

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Black Panther #5 SPOILERS and Discussion
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2016, 08:25:55 am »
Hudlins' end (Deadliest of the species and such) was actually a good story though. I mean, other than the Doom "fight" which was utter garbage.. the rest of it was beyond solid IMO. Even T'challa's arc (goign the mystic route) was good and Shuri's story was great.

I have some issues with it (Did Morlun really have to murk M'baku, W'kabi, and Zuri? yeesh) but it was still a good story.

Priest's end issues were... yes editorial ish forced but... they were hot garbage IMO. Like even from a story telling aspect they sucked. And even though he had to know the end was near... he left so many daggling plot threads (aneurysm, Killmonger)... just yeesh.