Author Topic: Black Panther - Fists of Khonshu vs The Claws of Bast! aka Panther's Rage 2.0  (Read 162322 times)

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #885 on: March 09, 2020, 04:16:26 pm »
AoW, its average, it had a alot of potential but it's been squandered unfortunately. It could of been so much more, it could of done into the hatute zeraze Black ops side, fleshed out Okoye and the true Dora milaje left as well as the hz and cranked up the secret avengers times 11 with other heroes getting a glimpse of the tech the most advanced nation on Earth sport's... Maybe one day

I don't blame AoW, it's a mash-up concept  that's light in tone, no problem for me.

What you're talking about, this is something that should be happening in the solo Panther series.
Instead, we get Storm, Luke Cage, Misty Knight and Falcon as the Wakandan forces. The tech, fighting skills. HZ, DM etc are all concepts that should be explored in the solo.


My sentiments exactly Marvell2100! All that should occur in the BP title. AoW is a B-roll book. BP appears in Black Panther, Avengers, and AoW. My expectations descend in that order.

Peace,

Mont

Yeah, all of the spin-offs that Coates tried failed because they weren't about Wakanda but his pet characters.

WoW? Aneka and Ayo in NYC.
BP & The Crew? Some character that nobody knew or cared about died. And Storm has been secretly living in Harlem after joining the X-Men.

Rise was the best thing to come from out of Coates umbrella. Why? because it was about BP and Wakanda.

You build up BP, you build up Wakanda. You show all hat cool tech, skills, introduce and keep using supporting characters and flesh them out. Build a solid foundation for the franchise to stand on and then you can develop spin-off series about Wakanda and it everything else.


Rise was also the only spin off to stabilize under Coates cabal brought in. Really rise should of came instead of BP WoW and should of Been atleast 12+18 issues

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #886 on: March 10, 2020, 07:15:33 pm »
Rise was extremely well done and showed that Narcisse has the ability to tell a story with respect for the character while working within editorial/company constraints. I loved his portrayal of N'Yami and her relationship with T'Chaka, something we'd never seen, yet it resonated with everything we know. He gave us a T'Challa and Wakanda that was at once grounded in legitimate BP lore and revelatory similar to CJP and Reg and all at a time when Coates, Marvel's bell cow, was further trashing it all. In addition to his talent as a storyteller, he has a pedigree in comics, something Coates did not come to the medium with nor seemingly endeavor to understand.

My Two Cents.

Peace,

Mont

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #887 on: March 10, 2020, 07:46:42 pm »
Rise was extremely well done and showed that Narcisse has the ability to tell a story with respect for the character while working within editorial/company constraints. I loved his portrayal of N'Yami and her relationship with T'Chaka, something we'd never seen, yet it resonated with everything we know. He gave us a T'Challa and Wakanda that was at once grounded in legitimate BP lore and revelatory similar to CJP and Reg and all at a time when Coates, Marvel's bell cow, was further trashing it all. In addition to his talent as a storyteller, he has a pedigree in comics, something Coates did not come to the medium with nor seemingly endeavor to understand.

My Two Cents.

Peace,

Mont


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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #888 on: March 11, 2020, 09:01:12 pm »
Thanks brother SI! Really hoping we get someone to restore BP to his rightful characterization evolving him and Wakanda logically, spectacularly!

Be safe and healthy everyone!

Peace,

Mont

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #889 on: March 12, 2020, 04:17:37 am »
I am cautiously optimistic about who the next writer will be. I am guessing what happens I'm empyre will set the tone. I am just hoping that T'Challa and Wakanda don't get punked again so we can finally start a series off on the right foot

Offline Salustrade

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #890 on: March 12, 2020, 05:35:04 am »
I am cautiously optimistic about who the next writer will be. I am guessing what happens I'm empyre will set the tone. I am just hoping that T'Challa and Wakanda don't get punked again so we can finally start a series off on the right foot

It's quite unfortunate that Marvel have never really fully supported writers with a genuine interest in the BP mythos.

I say this based on the ease with which Marvel Editorial allowed the X-office to set the tone and direction of the scenarios leading up to and beyond the destruction of T'Challa and Ororo's marriage which wasn't even written by a Black Panther writer or, even within the pages of a Black Panther solo as there was none in publication at the time,  owing to Marvel's abrupt cancellation of David Liss's BP run.

It's worth noting that Ravid Liss was the last BP writer post Reginald Hudlin, who actually wrote T'Challa fully in character and in a healthy relationship with Ororo, which is probably one of the reasons why they went ahead and cancelled Liss's run, just in time to set up the divisive nonsense that served as the foundation for AvX.

T'Challa wasn't even an Avenger at that point so there was ZERO reason for him to have been part of that event  and additionally, as he wasn't even King of Wakanda, he had no right to offer the Avengers sanctuary within Wakanda as that decision would have been solely up to his sister Shuri, who was Wakanda's ruler at that time.

But none of these facts mattered to Marvel at the time and to be quite honest, the fact that Marvel chose to double down on allowing writers hostile to the BP mythos, free reign to wreck said mythos over the past four years, gives me ZERO confidence that they will course correct at this late juncture.

I can only humbly suggest that we dont all blindly throw our support behind the next writer without fully scrutinising their personal viewpoints on BP beforehand.

Ta Nehisi Coates run should have been ended at the point of pitch once it was established that he had no intention to follow through on the premise Hickman had established post Secret War II's conclusion.

The fact that Marvel have only truncated his disgraceful run, a year earlier than scheduled isn't anything to really celebrate at this point due to the immense damage initiated upon the BP franchise by Coates and his coterie of faux woketivists.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 08:23:20 am by Salustrade »

Online CvilleWakandan

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #891 on: March 12, 2020, 07:18:03 am »
I am cautiously optimistic about who the next writer will be. I am guessing what happens I'm empyre will set the tone. I am just hoping that T'Challa and Wakanda don't get punked again so we can finally start a series off on the right foot

It's quite unfortunate that Marvel have never really fully supported writers with a genuine interest in the BP mythos.

I say this based on the easeveith which Marvel Editorial allowed the X-office to set the tone and direction of the scenarios leading up to and beyond the destruction of T'Challa and Ororo's marriage which wasn't even written by a Black Panther writer or, even within the pages of a Black Panther solo as there was none in publication at the time,  owing to Marvel's abrupt cancellation of David Liss's BP run.

It's worth noting that Ravid Liss was the last BP writer post Reginald Hudlin, who actually wrote T'Challa fully in character and in a healthy relationship with Ororo, which is probably one of the reasons why they went ahead and cancelled Liss's run, just in time to set up the divisive nonsense that served as the foundation for AvX.

T'Challa wasn't even an Avenger at that point so there was ZERO reason for him to have been part of that event  and additionally, as he wasn't even King of Wakanda, he had no right to offer the Avengers sanctuary within Wakanda as that decision would have been solely up to his sister Shuri, who was Wakanda's ruler at that time.

But none of these facts mattered to Marvel at the time and to be quite honest, the fact that Marvel chose to double down on allowing writers hostile to the BP mythos, free reign to wreck said mythos over the past four years, gives me ZERO confidence that they will course correct at this late juncture.

I can only humbly suggest that we dont all blindly throw our support behind the next writer without fully scrutinising their personal viewpoints on BP beforehand.

Ta Nehisi Coates run should have been ended at the point of pitch once it was established that he had no intention to follow through on the premise Hickman had established post Secret War II's conclusion.

The fact that Marvel have only truncated his disgraceful run, a year earlier than scheduled isn't anything to really celebrate at this point due to the immense damage initiated upon the BP franchise by Coates and his coterie of faux woketivists.


Liss did not do a healthy relationship with Storm. Tchalla left her to run around Hells Kitchen beating up criminals, then yelled at her for showing up during the Kraven fight. If anything, the Liss rin was a precursor to the breakup.
Reggie Hudlin-
 "I think my Panther run traumatized a lot of folks with its explicit blackness.  But you can't win unless you commit to something."

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #892 on: March 12, 2020, 10:29:34 am »
I am cautiously optimistic about who the next writer will be. I am guessing what happens I'm empyre will set the tone. I am just hoping that T'Challa and Wakanda don't get punked again so we can finally start a series off on the right foot

It's quite unfortunate that Marvel have never really fully supported writers with a genuine interest in the BP mythos.

I say this based on the easeveith which Marvel Editorial allowed the X-office to set the tone and direction of the scenarios leading up to and beyond the destruction of T'Challa and Ororo's marriage which wasn't even written by a Black Panther writer or, even within the pages of a Black Panther solo as there was none in publication at the time,  owing to Marvel's abrupt cancellation of David Liss's BP run.

It's worth noting that Ravid Liss was the last BP writer post Reginald Hudlin, who actually wrote T'Challa fully in character and in a healthy relationship with Ororo, which is probably one of the reasons why they went ahead and cancelled Liss's run, just in time to set up the divisive nonsense that served as the foundation for AvX.

T'Challa wasn't even an Avenger at that point so there was ZERO reason for him to have been part of that event  and additionally, as he wasn't even King of Wakanda, he had no right to offer the Avengers sanctuary within Wakanda as that decision would have been solely up to his sister Shuri, who was Wakanda's ruler at that time.

But none of these facts mattered to Marvel at the time and to be quite honest, the fact that Marvel chose to double down on allowing writers hostile to the BP mythos, free reign to wreck said mythos over the past four years, gives me ZERO confidence that they will course correct at this late juncture.

I can only humbly suggest that we dont all blindly throw our support behind the next writer without fully scrutinising their personal viewpoints on BP beforehand.

Ta Nehisi Coates run should have been ended at the point of pitch once it was established that he had no intention to follow through on the premise Hickman had established post Secret War II's conclusion.

The fact that Marvel have only truncated his disgraceful run, a year earlier than scheduled isn't anything to really celebrate at this point due to the immense damage initiated upon the BP franchise by Coates and his coterie of faux woketivists.


Liss did not do a healthy relationship with Storm. Tchalla left her to run around Hells Kitchen beating up criminals, then yelled at her for showing up during the Kraven fight. If anything, the Liss rin was a precursor to the breakup.

Despite really not liking the premise/constraints Liss had to work with, I don't blame Liss. I was glad for that "Storm/Hunter" story back in the day. I thought he did what he could with what I believe he was allowed to work with. Overall I wasn't pleased with the Man Without Fear/Most Dangerous Man Alive part of T'Challa's history (though "The Most Dangerous Man Alive" is a cool nickname that should not be forgotten), but that's more because of the premise than the writing. It would be neat to see what Liss could do with say Moon Knight or Nighthawk. I did enjoy some of The Spider issues I've read from him. Also enjoyed his Mystery Men miniseries. I think he could kill at Marvel Noir.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #893 on: March 12, 2020, 12:13:46 pm »
I am cautiously optimistic about who the next writer will be. I am guessing what happens I'm empyre will set the tone. I am just hoping that T'Challa and Wakanda don't get punked again so we can finally start a series off on the right foot

It's quite unfortunate that Marvel have never really fully supported writers with a genuine interest in the BP mythos.

I say this based on the easeveith which Marvel Editorial allowed the X-office to set the tone and direction of the scenarios leading up to and beyond the destruction of T'Challa and Ororo's marriage which wasn't even written by a Black Panther writer or, even within the pages of a Black Panther solo as there was none in publication at the time,  owing to Marvel's abrupt cancellation of David Liss's BP run.

It's worth noting that Ravid Liss was the last BP writer post Reginald Hudlin, who actually wrote T'Challa fully in character and in a healthy relationship with Ororo, which is probably one of the reasons why they went ahead and cancelled Liss's run, just in time to set up the divisive nonsense that served as the foundation for AvX.

T'Challa wasn't even an Avenger at that point so there was ZERO reason for him to have been part of that event  and additionally, as he wasn't even King of Wakanda, he had no right to offer the Avengers sanctuary within Wakanda as that decision would have been solely up to his sister Shuri, who was Wakanda's ruler at that time.

But none of these facts mattered to Marvel at the time and to be quite honest, the fact that Marvel chose to double down on allowing writers hostile to the BP mythos, free reign to wreck said mythos over the past four years, gives me ZERO confidence that they will course correct at this late juncture.

I can only humbly suggest that we dont all blindly throw our support behind the next writer without fully scrutinising their personal viewpoints on BP beforehand.

Ta Nehisi Coates run should have been ended at the point of pitch once it was established that he had no intention to follow through on the premise Hickman had established post Secret War II's conclusion.

The fact that Marvel have only truncated his disgraceful run, a year earlier than scheduled isn't anything to really celebrate at this point due to the immense damage initiated upon the BP franchise by Coates and his coterie of faux woketivists.


Liss did not do a healthy relationship with Storm. Tchalla left her to run around Hells Kitchen beating up criminals, then yelled at her for showing up during the Kraven fight. If anything, the Liss rin was a precursor to the breakup.

Despite really not liking the premise/constraints Liss had to work with, I don't blame Liss. I was glad for that "Storm/Hunter" story back in the day. I thought he did what he could with what I believe he was allowed to work with. Overall I wasn't pleased with the Man Without Fear/Most Dangerous Man Alive part of T'Challa's history (though "The Most Dangerous Man Alive" is a cool nickname that should not be forgotten), but that's more because of the premise than the writing. It would be neat to see what Liss could do with say Moon Knight or Nighthawk. I did enjoy some of The Spider issues I've read from him. Also enjoyed his Mystery Men miniseries. I think he could kill at Marvel Noir.

Liss would definitely massacre heads at Marvel Noir. He's a mystery writer and Noir is right in his wheelhouse. And ANYTHING that gets Coates off of BP...especially a year early...is a very good thing. Imagine how much MORE damage that guy would do to BP with ANOTHER year to screw him up, big up Storm and everybody else at T'Challa's expense, etc? He clearly lifted the "interstellar Wakandan Empire" idea from me, but instead of embracing its incredible potential for big upping all of the Panthers since Bashenga? He turns it into a poorly done alleged Star Wars-Middle Passages mashup which is way more "poorly executed, meandering, smashed up Star Wars+sucka T'Challa" than anything else.

He chose to do THAT, instead of write stories about how Wakanda as an Interstellar Emire of its own would keep eyes on the Cosmic MU and ow the Cosmic MU would react to Interstellar Wakanda. He chose to do THAT instead of write stories about how Wakanda would handle Annihilus, Accusers, The Brood, etc. He chose to do THAT instead of flesh out Wakanda's relationship with The Nova Corps and The Space Knights. He chose to do THAT instead of dealing with how The Skrulls would want a Round 2 after Wakanda humiliated them on Earth. He chose to do THAT instead of show how The Grandmaster and The Collector would want to get their hands on Interstellar Vibranium and how Wakanda would take steps to thwart them. He chose to do THAT instead of build on the stories that R to the H had brewing in plotlines when he had T'Challa. Storm and the F4 dealing with Cosmic Zombies. He chose to do THAT instead of using this as an opportunity to deal with Psycho Man who's still piiiiisssed at T'Challa for disrupting his plans and defeating him for THE SECOND time [ the first time was back in the day with the F4 etc ]. He chose to do THAT instead of using this opportunity to explore how The Time Variance Agency would come calling on Wakanda for its many time altering activities, including the new timelines started in this Eighth Reality [ building on the plotlines of BATTLEWORLD, THE ULTIMATES, etc. ] he chose to do...that whole vomitous Star Wars rip off thing.

My friends. You have a Interstellar, Interdimensional Wakanda. Who needs Batman vs Superman when you can do Techno-Viral Brood  Hyperion leading The Techno-Brood vs T'Challa and Interstellar Wakanda? Howzabout having T'Challa get some much needed gitback on Maximus, Namor, and Doom? Ohh I know that Doom is going through that unique situation in Marvel right now, but you can end around that by saying that Doom created alternate versions of himself and Microversed his REAL self [ or his DUAL self, as his OTHER REAL SELF is going through whatever he's going through now, after his loss of his kingdom ] and T'Challa wants to shut the door on ANY backdoor plans that Doom has. So T'Challa claps Mad Thinker for his part in helping Doom locate The Molecule Man in Time Runs Out, snags the map they made from The Mapmakers, and travels to the Microverse to square off with Doom...where he handles both Psycho Man and Doom, who were waiting for T'Challa and tried to ambush him. T'Challa stomps Doom to the edge of death...just like Doom did to him...and is getting ready to launch the final death dealing blow, when Doom uses one of his Ultimate Protocols to save his life. One of these Ultimate Protocols actually threatens the Reality fabric comprising his enemy, further threatens said enemy with a Doom enhanced version of the UnReal that Nightmare the villain uses, amps the UnReal threat with a Doom Enhanced, psychotic break causing psychoburst from the Psychoverse of Psycho Man, the spikes all of that with a horrific blend of True Death Microns resulting from one of the utterly eradicated universes that was destroyed by a detonated Molecule Man as shown by Hickman's run. T'Challa shows he's smarter than Doom by swiftly solving all of this, forcing Doom to think to himself that not even Reed Richards would have been capable of what T'Challa just did. Then T'Challa beheads this Doom the same way he beheaded Sabertooth in House of M. For good measure, T'Challa disintegrates Doom's separated head and body with a blast using his Interstellar Vibranium...the purest form of Vibranium...ensuring that THIS Doom will never return.

 You wanna keep Shuri relevant as a serious h2h scrapper? Bring back Proxima Midnight, who should be one of her primary nemeses. I don't think that Proxima is smart enough to be Shuri's ARCH nemesis...we still gotta find her in the already established MU Rogues Gallery or create a brand new bad gyal to be Shuri's arch nemesis.

You want to big up the brilliance of Shuri? Yes? Everyone does. So why not have Shuri square off with Supergiant, the returned member of Thanos' Black Order and who is extreeemely formidable, given the fact that she has telepathic powers AT LEAST equal to Professor X allowing her to mind control nearly anyone, AND she feeds on the intellect of her foes?

But no. Coates does NONE of that. Instead? He chose to do that ridiculous Star Wars thing. He could have decided to have Wakanda deal with The Ivory Kings from Hickman's Time Runs Out, who are now aware that Wakanda exists. He chose to do that Star Wars thing instead of detail how The Black Priests' former leader Doctor Strange became imperiled when The Black Priests and evil Wakandan sorcerers like Bwana [ Master, Lord ] Macabre etc would team up to get Doctor Strange AND Doctor Voodoo out of the way, so they can conquer Interstellar and Prime Material Wakanda...leading to an arc blending the magic and tech team up of Doctor Voodoo, Blade, Ironheart, Moon Girl and T'Challa vs The Black Priests; plus they get to rescue Doctor Strange in the process.  I mean hell, this would be a PERFECT way to reintroduce and more satisfactorily resolve the whole mystery of Happy Pants Panther, because T'Challa would have sent his troublesome doppleganger to Interstellar Wakanda to personally spy on and deal with the many threats that would best be engaged on the interstellar battlefield and cosmic chess board, rather than on Earth itself. Happy Pants would be zooming around in and out and through multiple dimensions, interstellar space, many strange new realities etc. with a whole bunch of help as well as while performing extended solo super secret missions because he leads The IDR [ Interstellar/Dimensional Reality ] Agents of Wakanda, which allows him to simultaneously maintain his regal standing, his dignity, and his incredible usefulness WITHOUT trampling upon the day to day operations of Interstellar or 616 Wakanda [ I don't personally see T'Challa letting M'Baku get away with murdering his future doppleganger because T'Challa would have had his future ended, and wouldn't be on the spot to turn aside the many threats that the future holds. This action alone would catch the attention of and invite the intervention of The Time Variance Agency. See how using continuity could and should be used to springboard original stories? ]

All of that above I thought up in less than 5 minutes. And Coates? With YEARS on the book? Couldn't do ANY of that, even when given incredible options by previous BP stories or even when biting ideas like Interstellar Wakanda directly from me.

So yeah...Coates on BP for one more nanosecond, much less one more YEAR, more than needed? Hell to the no. Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 12:09:40 am by supreme illuminati »
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Offline Salustrade

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #894 on: March 12, 2020, 10:23:08 pm »
I am cautiously optimistic about who the next writer will be. I am guessing what happens I'm empyre will set the tone. I am just hoping that T'Challa and Wakanda don't get punked again so we can finally start a series off on the right foot

It's quite unfortunate that Marvel have never really fully supported writers with a genuine interest in the BP mythos.

I say this based on the easeveith which Marvel Editorial allowed the X-office to set the tone and direction of the scenarios leading up to and beyond the destruction of T'Challa and Ororo's marriage which wasn't even written by a Black Panther writer or, even within the pages of a Black Panther solo as there was none in publication at the time,  owing to Marvel's abrupt cancellation of David Liss's BP run.

It's worth noting that David Liss was the last BP writer post Reginald Hudlin, who actually wrote T'Challa fully in character and in a healthy relationship with Ororo, which is probably one of the reasons why they went ahead and cancelled Liss's run, just in time to set up the divisive nonsense that served as the foundation for AvX.

T'Challa wasn't even an Avenger at that point so there was ZERO reason for him to have been part of that event  and additionally, as he wasn't even King of Wakanda, he had no right to offer the Avengers sanctuary within Wakanda as that decision would have been solely up to his sister Shuri, who was Wakanda's ruler at that time.

But none of these facts mattered to Marvel at the time and to be quite honest, the fact that Marvel chose to double down on allowing writers hostile to the BP mythos, free reign to wreck said mythos over the past four years, gives me ZERO confidence that they will course correct at this late juncture.

I can only humbly suggest that we dont all blindly throw our support behind the next writer without fully scrutinising their personal viewpoints on BP beforehand.

Ta Nehisi Coates run should have been ended at the point of pitch once it was established that he had no intention to follow through on the premise Hickman had established post Secret War II's conclusion.

The fact that Marvel have only truncated his disgraceful run, a year earlier than scheduled isn't anything to really celebrate at this point due to the immense damage initiated upon the BP franchise by Coates and his coterie of faux woketivists.


Liss did not do a healthy relationship with Storm. Tchalla left her to run around Hells Kitchen beating up criminals, then yelled at her for showing up during the Kraven fight. If anything, the Liss rin was a precursor to the breakup.

Sorry my bro, but if you want to accurately bring up precursors to the breakup, look no further than Jonathan Maberry's Doomwar, where T'Challa was depicted as being willing to sacrifice Ororo to prevent Doom getting his hands on Wakanda's Vibranium mound.

The fact that Doom was revealed to have already taken control of all the Vibranium prior to goading T'Challa into making what should have been an impossible choice, made T'Challa look all the more stupid as well as make him an inevitable target for hatred from X-fans who already hated the marriage from day one.

David Liss on the otherhand, had Ororo supporting T'Challa's decision to go "find" himself in the aftermath of the events in Doomwar but still had her come save T'Challa's life during his initial encounter with Kraven.

Yes, T'Challa was brusque with Ororo at the onset but Liss clearly showed Ororo playfulness in breaking down T'Challa's resolute stubbornness in a way that was quite tender and indicative of David Liss's clear understanding of the very real dynamics that exist in healthy relationships between a married couple.

Describing David Liss's portrayal of their marriage as a negative when juxtaposed against Maberry's handling of same during Doomwar, is somewhat unreasonable not to mention disingenuous.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #895 on: March 12, 2020, 10:24:48 pm »
I am cautiously optimistic about who the next writer will be. I am guessing what happens I'm empyre will set the tone. I am just hoping that T'Challa and Wakanda don't get punked again so we can finally start a series off on the right foot

It's quite unfortunate that Marvel have never really fully supported writers with a genuine interest in the BP mythos.

I say this based on the easeveith which Marvel Editorial allowed the X-office to set the tone and direction of the scenarios leading up to and beyond the destruction of T'Challa and Ororo's marriage which wasn't even written by a Black Panther writer or, even within the pages of a Black Panther solo as there was none in publication at the time,  owing to Marvel's abrupt cancellation of David Liss's BP run.

It's worth noting that Ravid Liss was the last BP writer post Reginald Hudlin, who actually wrote T'Challa fully in character and in a healthy relationship with Ororo, which is probably one of the reasons why they went ahead and cancelled Liss's run, just in time to set up the divisive nonsense that served as the foundation for AvX.

T'Challa wasn't even an Avenger at that point so there was ZERO reason for him to have been part of that event  and additionally, as he wasn't even King of Wakanda, he had no right to offer the Avengers sanctuary within Wakanda as that decision would have been solely up to his sister Shuri, who was Wakanda's ruler at that time.

But none of these facts mattered to Marvel at the time and to be quite honest, the fact that Marvel chose to double down on allowing writers hostile to the BP mythos, free reign to wreck said mythos over the past four years, gives me ZERO confidence that they will course correct at this late juncture.

I can only humbly suggest that we dont all blindly throw our support behind the next writer without fully scrutinising their personal viewpoints on BP beforehand.

Ta Nehisi Coates run should have been ended at the point of pitch once it was established that he had no intention to follow through on the premise Hickman had established post Secret War II's conclusion.

The fact that Marvel have only truncated his disgraceful run, a year earlier than scheduled isn't anything to really celebrate at this point due to the immense damage initiated upon the BP franchise by Coates and his coterie of faux woketivists.


Liss did not do a healthy relationship with Storm. Tchalla left her to run around Hells Kitchen beating up criminals, then yelled at her for showing up during the Kraven fight. If anything, the Liss rin was a precursor to the breakup.

Despite really not liking the premise/constraints Liss had to work with, I don't blame Liss. I was glad for that "Storm/Hunter" story back in the day. I thought he did what he could with what I believe he was allowed to work with. Overall I wasn't pleased with the Man Without Fear/Most Dangerous Man Alive part of T'Challa's history (though "The Most Dangerous Man Alive" is a cool nickname that should not be forgotten), but that's more because of the premise than the writing. It would be neat to see what Liss could do with say Moon Knight or Nighthawk. I did enjoy some of The Spider issues I've read from him. Also enjoyed his Mystery Men miniseries. I think he could kill at Marvel Noir.

Brother Emperorjones, I agree with you 100%. 8)

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #896 on: March 12, 2020, 10:32:22 pm »
I am cautiously optimistic about who the next writer will be. I am guessing what happens I'm empyre will set the tone. I am just hoping that T'Challa and Wakanda don't get punked again so we can finally start a series off on the right foot


It's quite unfortunate that Marvel have never really fully supported writers with a genuine interest in the BP mythos.

I say this based on the easeveith which Marvel Editorial allowed the X-office to set the tone and direction of the scenarios leading up to and beyond the destruction of T'Challa and Ororo's marriage which wasn't even written by a Black Panther writer or, even within the pages of a Black Panther solo as there was none in publication at the time,  owing to Marvel's abrupt cancellation of David Liss's BP run.

It's worth noting that Ravid Liss was the last BP writer post Reginald Hudlin, who actually wrote T'Challa fully in character and in a healthy relationship with Ororo, which is probably one of the reasons why they went ahead and cancelled Liss's run, just in time to set up the divisive nonsense that served as the foundation for AvX.

T'Challa wasn't even an Avenger at that point so there was ZERO reason for him to have been part of that event  and additionally, as he wasn't even King of Wakanda, he had no right to offer the Avengers sanctuary within Wakanda as that decision would have been solely up to his sister Shuri, who was Wakanda's ruler at that time.

But none of these facts mattered to Marvel at the time and to be quite honest, the fact that Marvel chose to double down on allowing writers hostile to the BP mythos, free reign to wreck said mythos over the past four years, gives me ZERO confidence that they will course correct at this late juncture.

I can only humbly suggest that we dont all blindly throw our support behind the next writer without fully scrutinising their personal viewpoints on BP beforehand.

Ta Nehisi Coates run should have been ended at the point of pitch once it was established that he had no intention to follow through on the premise Hickman had established post Secret War II's conclusion.

The fact that Marvel have only truncated his disgraceful run, a year earlier than scheduled isn't anything to really celebrate at this point due to the immense damage initiated upon the BP franchise by Coates and his coterie of faux woketivists.


Liss did not do a healthy relationship with Storm. Tchalla left her to run around Hells Kitchen beating up criminals, then yelled at her for showing up during the Kraven fight. If anything, the Liss rin was a precursor to the breakup.


Despite really not liking the premise/constraints Liss had to work with, I don't blame Liss. I was glad for that "Storm/Hunter" story back in the day. I thought he did what he could with what I believe he was allowed to work with. Overall I wasn't pleased with the Man Without Fear/Most Dangerous Man Alive part of T'Challa's history (though "The Most Dangerous Man Alive" is a cool nickname that should not be forgotten), but that's more because of the premise than the writing. It would be neat to see what Liss could do with say Moon Knight or Nighthawk. I did enjoy some of The Spider issues I've read from him. Also enjoyed his Mystery Men miniseries. I think he could kill at Marvel Noir.


Liss would definitely massacre heads at Marvel Noir. He's a mystery writer and Noir is right in his wheelhouse. And ANYTHING that gets Coates off of BP...especially a year early...is a very good thing. Imagine how much MORE damage that guy would do to BP with ANOTHER year to screw him up, big up Storm and everybody else at T'Challa's expense, etc? He clearly lifted the "interstellar Wakandan Empire" idea from me, but instead of embracing its incredible potential for big upping all of the Panthers since Bashenga? He turns it into a poorly done alleged Star Wars-Middle Passages mashup which is way more "poorly executed, meandering, smashed up Star Wars+sucka T'Challa" than anything else.

He chose to do THAT, instead of write stories about how Wakanda as an Interstellar Emire of its own would keep eyes on the Cosmic MU and ow the Cosmic MU would react to Interstellar Wakanda. He chose to do THAT instead of write stories about how Wakanda would handle Annihilus, Accusers, The Brood, etc. He chose to do THAT instead of flesh out Wakanda's relationship with The Nova Corps and The Space Knights. He chose to do THAT instead of dealing with how The Skrulls would want a Round 2 after Wakanda humiliated them on Earth. He chose to do THAT instead of show how The Grandmaster and The Collector would want to get their hands on Interstellar Vibranium and how Wakanda would take steps to thwart them. He chose to do THAT instead of build on the stories that R to the H had brewing in plotlines when he had T'Challa. Storm and the F4 dealing with Cosmic Zombies. He chose to do THAT instead of using this as an opportunity to deal with Psycho Man who's still piiiiisssed at T'Challa for disrupting his plans and defeating him for THE SECOND time [ the first time was back in the day with the F4 etc ]. He chose to do THAT instead of using this opportunity to explore how The Time Variance Agency would come calling on Wakanda for its many time altering activities, including the new timelines started in this Eighth Reality [ building on the plotlines of BATTLEWORLD, THE ULTIMATES, etc. ] he chose to do...that whole vomitous Star Wars rip off thing.

My friends. You have a Interstellar, Interdimensional Wakanda. Who needs Batman vs Superman when you can do Techno-Viral Brood  Hyperion leading The Techno-Brood vs T'Challa and Interstellar Wakanda? Howzabout having T'Challa get some much needed gitback on Maximus, Namor, and Doom? Ohh I know that Doom is going through that unique situation in Marvel right now, but you can end around that by saying that Doom created alternate versions of himself and Microversed his REAL self [ or his DUAL self, as his OTHER REAL SELF is going through whatever he's going through now, after his loss of his kingdom ] and T'Challa wants to shut the door on ANY backdoor plans that Doom has. So T'Challa claps Mad Thinker for his part in helping Doom locate The Molecule Man in Time Runs Out, snags the map they made from The Mapmakers, and travels to the Microverse to square off with Doom...where he handles both Psycho Man and Doom, who were waiting for T'Challa and tried to ambush him. T'Challa stomps Doom to the edge of death...just like Doom did to him...and is getting ready to launch the final death dealing blow, when Doom uses one of his Ultimate Protocols to save his life. One of these Ultimate Protocols actually threatens the Reality fabric comprising his enemy threatening him with a Doom enhanced version of the UnReal that Nightmare the villain uses combined with a Doom Enhanced psychotic break causing psychoburst from the Psychoverse of Psycho Man PLUS a horrific blend of True Death Microns resulting from one of the utterly eradicated universes that was destroyed by a detonated Molecule Man as shown by Hickman's run. T'Challa shows he's smarter than Doom by swiftly solving all of this, forcing Doom to think to himself that not even Reed Richards would have been capable of what T'Challa just did. Then T'Challa beheads this Doom the same way he beheaded Sabertooth in House of M. For good measure, T'Challa disintegrates Doom's separated head and body with a blast using his Interstellar Vibranium...the purest form of Vibranium, ensuring that THIS Doom will never return.

 You wanna keep Shuri relevant as a serious h2h scrapper? Bring back Proxima Midnight, who should be one of her primary nemeses. I don't think that Proxima is smart enough to be Shuri's ARCH nemesis...we still gotta find her in the already established MU Rogues Gallery or create a brand new bad gyal to be Shuri's arch nemesis.

You want to big up the brilliance of Shuri? Yes? Everyone does. So why not have Shuri square off with Supergiant, the returned member of Thanos' Black Order and who is extreeemely formidable, given the fact that she has telepathic powers AT LEAST equal to Professor X allowing her to mind control nearly anyone, AND she feeds on the intellect of her foes?

But no. Coates does NONE of that. Instead? He chose to do that ridiculous Star Wars thing. He could have decided to have Wakanda deal with The Ivory Kings from Hickman's Time Runs Out, who are now aware that Wakanda exists. He chose to do that Star Wars thing instead of detail how The Black Priests' former leader Doctor Strange became imperiled when The Black Priests and evil Wakandan sorcerers like Bwana [ Master, Lord ] Macabre etc would team up to get Doctor Strange AND Doctor Voodoo out of the way, so they can conquer Interstellar and Prime Material Wakanda...leading to an arc blending the magic and tech team up of Doctor Voodoo, Blade, Ironheart, Moon Girl and T'Challa vs The Black Priests; plus they get to rescue Doctor Strange in the process.  I mean hell, this would be a PERFECT way to reintroduce and more satisfactorily resolve the whole mystery of Happy Pants Panther, because T'Challa would have sent his troublesome doppleganger to Interstellar Wakanda to personally spy on and deal with the many threats that would best be engaged on the interstellar battlefield and cosmic chess board, rather than on Earth itself. Happy Pants would be zooming around in and out and through multiple dimensions, interstellar space, many strange new realities etc. with a whole bunch of help as well as while performing extended solo super secret missions because he leads The IDR [ Interstellar/Dimensional Reality ] Agents of Wakanda, which allows him to simultaneously maintain his regal standing, his dignity, and his incredible usefulness WITHOUT trampling upon the day to day operations of Interstellar or 616 Wakanda [ I don't personally see T'Challa letting M'Baku get away with murdering his future doppleganger because T'Challa would have had his future ended, and wouldn't be on the spot to turn aside the many threats that the future holds. This action alone would catch the attention of and invite the intervention of The Time Variance Agency. See how using continuity could and should be used to springboard original stories? ]

All of that above I thought up in less than 5 minutes. And Coates? With YEARS on the book? Couldn't do ANY of that, even when given incredible options by previous BP stories or even when biting ideas like Interstellar Wakanda directly from me.

So yeah...Coates on BP for one more nanosecond, much less one more YEAR, more than needed? Hell to the no. Thanks.


Brother Supreme, Coates was never positively invested in the BP mythos so it comes as no suprise that his imagination or lack thereof, was fully on display for the entire four years that he spent destroying T'Challa as a character and Wakanda as an Afrofuturistic concept brought to life on page.

The lesson to be learnt in this is that not all skin folk are kinfolk.

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #897 on: March 13, 2020, 12:24:11 am »
While Liss was saddled with a ridiculous burden in which he was still able to pull off a passable Black Panther we have been and continue to be assaulted by comic book industry professionals who don't give a damn about the Black Panther. In addition we get staff that want to ignore the character's voice and proper conduct to service some half ass woke agenda.

What the Black Panther needs now more than ever is a committed team composed of a dedicated and creative Afrakan centered futuristic writer steeped in continental and diasporac Afrakan history, culture and politics; an artist who is visionary and imaginative to render a futuristic Afrakan worldview; and an editor and researcher/archivist disciplined in the Black Panther mythos and willing to fight to maintain such. 

As fans and enthusiast we should not only demand such but not settle for anything less.
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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #898 on: March 13, 2020, 03:49:49 am »


Sorry my bro, but if you want to accurately bring up precursors to the breakup, look no further than Jonathan Maberry's Doomwar, where T'Challa was depicted as being willing to sacrifice Ororo to prevent Doom getting his hands on Wakanda's Vibranium mound.

The fact that Doom was revealed to have already taken control of all the Vibranium prior to goading T'Challa into making what should have been an impossible choice, made T'Challa look all the more stupid as well as make him an inevitable target for hatred from X-fans who already hated the marriage from day one.

David Liss on the otherhand, had Ororo supporting T'Challa's decision to go "find" himself in the aftermath of the events in Doomwar but still had her come save T'Challa's life during his initial encounter with Kraven.

Yes, T'Challa was brusque with Ororo at the onset but Liss clearly showed Ororo playfulness in breaking down T'Challa's resolute stubbornness in a way that was quite tender and indicative of David Liss's clear understanding of the very real dynamics that exist in healthy relationships between a married couple.

Describing David Liss's portrayal of their marriage as a negative when juxtaposed against Maberry's handling of same during Doomwar, is somewhat unreasonable not to mention disingenuous.

If finding yourself means having to leave your wife, the first domino in the process was placed. Its not like he got deployed in the military. Storm could just have easily come with him. Died/cut her hair and still been his wife sharing their secret identity. There was even that girl who was throwing herself at him hard and he could have said he had a wife in Africa that he was working to bring over or something. I believe Liss has said the premise was not his idea so Marvel was definitely setting the stage. At least when he had to choose between Storm and WK he did it in character. He always puts WK before any personal relationship. He did the same with his mother.

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Re: Black Panther's Agents of Wakanda
« Reply #899 on: March 13, 2020, 05:15:20 am »


Sorry my bro, but if you want to accurately bring up precursors to the breakup, look no further than Jonathan Maberry's Doomwar, where T'Challa was depicted as being willing to sacrifice Ororo to prevent Doom getting his hands on Wakanda's Vibranium mound.

The fact that Doom was revealed to have already taken control of all the Vibranium prior to goading T'Challa into making what should have been an impossible choice, made T'Challa look all the more stupid as well as make him an inevitable target for hatred from X-fans who already hated the marriage from day one.

David Liss on the otherhand, had Ororo supporting T'Challa's decision to go "find" himself in the aftermath of the events in Doomwar but still had her come save T'Challa's life during his initial encounter with Kraven.

Yes, T'Challa was brusque with Ororo at the onset but Liss clearly showed Ororo playfulness in breaking down T'Challa's resolute stubbornness in a way that was quite tender and indicative of David Liss's clear understanding of the very real dynamics that exist in healthy relationships between a married couple.

Describing David Liss's portrayal of their marriage as a negative when juxtaposed against Maberry's handling of same during Doomwar, is somewhat unreasonable not to mention disingenuous.

If finding yourself means having to leave your wife, the first domino in the process was placed. Its not like he got deployed in the military. Storm could just have easily come with him. Died/cut her hair and still been his wife sharing their secret identity. There was even that girl who was throwing herself at him hard and he could have said he had a wife in Africa that he was working to bring over or something. I believe Liss has said the premise was not his idea so Marvel was definitely setting the stage. At least when he had to choose between Storm and WK he did it in character. He always puts WK before any personal relationship. He did the same with his mother.

Bro, at what point during David Liss's Black Panther run, did we ever see Sofija "throwing" herself at T'Challa?

When I read stories, I look for nuance and clear indications as to what angles the writer is seeking to explore within the saga.

During Doomwar,  Jonathan kept his cards close to his chest, promising T'Challa's full scale resurgence as each issue dropped until at the mini-series close, T'Challa was left broken and battered at Doom's feet and left with the only countermeasure against the Latverian despot being the virtual destruction of Wakanda's entire unprocessed stores of Vibranium.

David Liss was mandated to have T'Challa inexplicably go on a soul searching jaunt to Hell's Kitchen as if he could hot have done so within Wakanda.

It was a story premise that I hated with a passion until David Liss proved that even saddled with such an outlandish concept, he still succeeded in writing T'Challa fully in character as regard fighting prowess, tactical awareness and genius level intellect.

David Liss engaged with Black Panther enthusiasts 8n the BP Appreciation thread over on CBR and took on board a lot of the concerns that said enthusiasts expressed within those threads.

He not only acknowledged said concerns but went on to handle same within the BP solo he was commissioned to write and it goes without saying, that he won over a lot of doubters (myself included) who were really burnt post Maberry's Doomwar.

If it was Marvel's intention to sink the marriage between T'Challa and Ororo, what exactly could David Liss have done with the couple other than what he managed to do?

Unlike Ta Nehisi Coates, David Liss's hands were completely tied.

If memory serves correctly, David Liss had T'Challa working seamlessly with his sister Shuri, who was Queen of Wakanda at that time.

None of the supporting characters Liss utilised within the book, overshadowed T'Challa at any point and T'Challa had clear cut unambiguous victories over his opponents which leading on from Maberry's Doomwar debacle, was a much appreciated relief.

It's quite telling that Marvel cancelled David Liss's BP run just as he was getting set to initiate a resurgent T'Challa's return to Wakanda but have given Ta Nehisi Coates four solid years of writing T'Challa into the proverbial ground.

So no, forgive me for not choosing to diminish the contributions of a writer who till date, was one of the few who never chumped T'Challa out or had guest stars crowding him out within his solo book.