Author Topic: Black Panther Avengers #44 - Pics of the Anti Climax!  (Read 196045 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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...but I sense a real twist here. I think another powerful woman inherits Phoenix. And wouldn't it be crazy if that woman was Shuri, or Storm or someone we wouldn't see coming...like, say, ECHO?


DIDN'T I PREDICT THIS? THAT'S SOME SUPREME ILLUMINATION, MY BRETHREN.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 12:14:43 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Offline Ture

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I thought you would dig that grill work Supreme Illuminati. Your team up idea is cool so long as T'Challa doesn't take the fall. If a mystery woman comes into play and it is Storm let her catch those hands or more apropos the vibranium suit of T'Challa's channeling all her power back at her and the Black Panther soundly winning their contest. If it is little sister, lets see how big brother has always been three steps ahead of his family. However over the next couple of issues, Black Panther beating Cap in combat and then defeating the Phoenix is the only logical win/win scenario I want to see.

Adding a little fuel to the fire... after witnessing how T'Challa handled Logan I don;t see how Kyle Richmond was so much trouble.
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Offline CvilleWakandan

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This is the new Richmond created by Aaron. And with Heroes Reborn coming I guess he needed a way to give him some credentials.

If only he did that with 1 million b.c. Panther. Lol
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Offline supreme illuminati

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I thought you would dig that grill work Supreme Illuminati. Your team up idea is cool so long as T'Challa doesn't take the fall. If a mystery woman comes into play and it is Storm let her catch those hands or more apropos the vibranium suit of T'Challa's channeling all her power back at her and the Black Panther soundly winning their contest. If it is little sister, lets see how big brother has always been three steps ahead of his family. However over the next couple of issues, Black Panther beating Cap in combat and then defeating the Phoenix is the only logical win/win scenario I want to see.

Adding a little fuel to the fire... after witnessing how T'Challa handled Logan I don;t see how Kyle Richmond was so much trouble.



First off? Agreed. T'Challa should dog walk and moon walk on pretty much everyone. Is Kyle a brutha in 616? I think so. And Kyle getting dogwalked may not be the best optics for Marvel, in Editorial's eyes. Also? If they're going to write a new series featuring Nighthawk? Getting dogwalked in his major series debut wouldn't be a good look for him. I was frankly surprised that he was included at all.

What happened to Luke Cage and Shang-Chi Phoenix? Idk they were even Phoenix hosts until I lucked into a blurb on it when I did a Google search looing for the pix with T'Challa fighting Nighthawk. Did Shang-Chi just accomplish THE INCREDIBLE feat of defeating Phoenix Hyperion? Are you KIDDING me? I looove it!! But how did Shang-Chi and Luke Cage lose their Phoenix host priviliege?



I want T'Challa to beat Iron Fist...avenging his "loss" which WAS NOT A LOSS vs Iron Fist in the CJP run [ as CJP made it clear that BP was mollywhoppin Daniel Rand Iron Fist until T'Challa decided to put himself at severe risk by seeking to save and heal Iron Fist rather than defeat him. This aspect of BP's...his BRILLIANT ability to use tech and his own will to realign the chi of the mystically misaligned incredibly powerful chi of a master like Daniel Rand Iron Fist, overriding the powers of The Black Dragon which bloodlusted Iron Fist of the Red Iron Fist outfit in the first place ]. I need T'Challa to beat Shang-Chi, as T'Challa lost to Iron Fist who then lost to Shang-Chi in Shang-Chi books and also something similar in the Hickman Battleworld Secret Wars books, wherein I think Iron Fist and Shang-Chi tangled and Shang-Chi...who'd renounced violence, was a wanted murderer, a hard drinker, and who'd found peace amongst The Lower Caste...beat Iron Fist, Laughing Skull, AND Black Panther or something.



https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/25319037-master-of-kung-fu

 T'Challa beats Steve CAP, and we need to see that because in the comics? On panel? Steve CAP has the edge in battles with T'Challa; not necessarily with The Black Panthers, but Cap has the edge specifically over T'Challa in numbers of wins/losses. T'Challa needs this win in order to get an official W over Steve. In the comics? T'Challa specifically has never beaten a full powered, uninjured Steve...whereas Steve Cap has beaten T'Challa both in 616 and Ultimate Universe books.





Somehow, though...I don't think that JA will give T'Challa this win. JA had T'Challa defeat all kinds of other people whom we'd be surprised to see T'Challa defeat: Khonshu, Moon Knight 4.0, and pretty much everyone else. And T'Challa did it with complete confidence, assurance, and even some swag. His dialogue with Phoenix also showed he felt from the very beginning that he could defeat Phoenix [ a dead giveaway imho that T'Challa already decided to never be a permanent host for Phoenix even without Bast ], and that told me right away that T'Challa wouldn't be the "winner" of this tournament. Because, as Doom rightly saw and I'm sure T'Challa knew well before this tournament started...Phoenix had already rigged the tournament. But unlike Doom, I think T'Challa sees the opportunity to guide the selection of the next Phoenix host, and this time? He's not trying to hear any noise about it being Jean Gray again because she threatened the universe a couple times as the host of Phoenix [ even though to me, like Brother Ture, Jean Gray is always THEE Phoenix ].

I don't really see T'Challa rockin Phoenix Power because T'Challa already has BAST POWER. I am certain that he won't be the person to rock Phoenix Power and have been certain that the Phoenix wouldn't be T'Challa from the very beginning. I am certain that the person rocking Phoenix wouldn't be anyone like CAP, even though for whatever reason I never considered CAP to be a host for Phoenix for any reason. CAP's spirit isn't the kind to harmonize with Phoenix. He doubts Phoenix even as he is one of its hosts.

Is T'Challa vs CAP the last round of this Tournament? IDK but I get the feeling that it is. If there're more challengers coming up? Then I want T'Challa to win and then show that from the very beginning he had this sweet plan wherein he guides the selection of the Phoenix host by selecting the winner of the tournament. I can see him forfeiting like Doom did; but like Brother Ture I don't see T'Challa yielding The Phoenix Force to the new Phoenix without first bringing that new host to the brink of defeat, or at least showing that T'Challa himself wasn't losing...before T'Challa forfeits. I expect that T;Challa should bring the new potential host to the brink of defeat, because without doing so? This potential host wouldn't know from jump that messign with Wakanda is NOT an option for ANY reason. Because T'Challa already showed that he could beat this new Phoenix. I alsow want T'Challa to show or say somethign aobut how Wakanda was never menaced by The Phoenix Five, like I showed years ago in my fanfic. After whoopaizin upon this new Phoenix host? I could see T'Challa simply handing over Phoenix Force power to someone who The Phoenix itself wasn't expecting: a surprising but brilliant selection which essentially neutralizes The Phoenix as a genuine threat to Earth.

Storm as Phoenix? Would be the most powerful force on Earth. We have the likelihood of the terrifying Omega power combo of PHOENIX ROGUESTORM. There's pretty much nothing as powerful as Ororo would be; not on Earth, anyway. I don't see that happening because JA seems to place The Starbrand as the power second to or equivalent to Phoenix, and Roguestorm isn't really a live option in JA's plot it seems.

You know who would be an incredible choice? Lunella. Yeah, I said it. Despite her precociousness, she would be a signally surprising and good choice because she wouldn't be a threat to Earth, yet possesses the spirit to ride with Phoenix and the now Phoenix-Devil Dinosaur to brand new adventures. But that won't happen. The outline of the new Phoenix is an adult woman. Sooo...Shanna The She-Devil? Echo? Who might it be? Guesses, anyone?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 08:39:36 am by supreme illuminati »
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Offline Ezyo

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I think T'Challa would/should win this fight against Cap. Neither one of them have beaten each other in a straight equal fight, either one have not been 100% on some regard. Given how the story has taken place, what the Phoenix has said to T'Challa, T'Challas connection to the Phoenix via 1mil bc Avengers, it doesn't make sense for him to lose to Cap. Plus when it comes to fighting prowess, T'Challa should outclass Steve. It should not be a walk in the park, but it's not going to be a long struggle that takes everything he has to beat him either. If JA has T'Challa lose then it will be by forfeit or phoenix intervention like how the Phoenix was cheating during the fight with Logan. But otherwise T'Challa should come out on top, we should see his pla. Unfold because the story is leading that path and the twist should make logical sense.

In the end, Cap CAN and SHOULD lose this fight. Though I can also see T'Challa and Cap fighting and talking and T'Challa telling Cap to trust him, resulting in Cap forfeiting to prevent a loss for Cap as well

Offline Ture

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Black Panther vs Captain America... Again! This time for the Phoenix Force.



ENTER THE PHOENIX: THE FIERY FINALE! It all comes down to this.
The final battle to decide who will wield the awesome cosmic power
of the Phoenix Force. You don't want to miss...the debut of the all-new Phoenix!


PREVIEWS COMING SOON!
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Black Panther vs Captain America... Again! This time for the Phoenix Force.



ENTER THE PHOENIX: THE FIERY FINALE! It all comes down to this.
The final battle to decide who will wield the awesome cosmic power
of the Phoenix Force. You don't want to miss...the debut of the all-new Phoenix!


PREVIEWS COMING SOON!



This cover very much suggests that Earth's Mightiest Heroes Avengers will unite against The New Phoenix, whoever she may be. We already know that T'Challa will NEVER be Phoenix, as his soul belongs to Bast [ somebody has to tell the story about that, and explain what happened to OGBPG...the Original Ganxta Black Panther God, who was MALE ]. It very much seems to me that The Phoenix knows what it wants, and T'Challa JUST MIGHT be written in such a way as to reveal he may have a plan to unite the Avengers en masse against the manipulations of The Phoenix.

But Idk if The New Phoenix will be an immediate or near term threat to The Avengers or Earth.
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Offline Ture

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Re: Black Panther Avengers #44 coming next week
« Reply #1102 on: April 04, 2021, 09:22:28 pm »
Black Panther Explains Why He Must Become The New Phoenix
Black Panther has been more focused than anyone else on winning the Phoenix Force Tournament, and now Marvel reveals why in a sneak preview!

BY SHAUN CORLEY



Throughout the Phoenix Force tournament that has been raging in the pages of the Avengers, the Black Panther, perhaps more than any other contestant, has been focused on winning, which would him give control of the powerful Phoenix Force. Now, in a preview for Avengers #44, readers learn why the Black Panther has been so focused on winning the tournament.

The Phoenix Force is a cosmic entity in the Marvel Universe, and one of its most powerful; past wielders of the Force have been capable of wiping out whole star systems. The Force has been without a host for a while now and has decided to find a new one. To that end it came to Earth to hold a special tournament to find its next host. The Avengers have been participating, as have a number of second-string heroes as well a few villains. The previous issue saw Captain America and Black Panther, both super-charged with the Phoenix's powers, begin the final battle for control of the Force. Now readers see why there is a special reason the Panther has been so focused on winning.

In a preview for the new issue, written by Jason Aaron with art by Javier Garron and colors by David Curiel, the two heroes are locked in combat, with neither getting the true upper hand. Captain America asks if the Panther has figured “a way out of this Phoenix mess.” Panther does not reply, and Cap realizes Panther is in it to win it. He cannot understand why, given the Force’s destructive past, Panther would ever want it, especially given how powerful the current Avengers roster is. Readers are reminded of a cave painting Black Panther saw in the first issue of the current run, and the paintings, coupled with the events of the past few years - such as meeting the Stone Age Avengers, the reborn Starbrand, or Thor becoming the All-Father - have made Panther afraid. He is fearful that Earth will not survive “this age of chaos” and possession of the Phoenix Force is the only way forward.









The preview ends there, so readers do not see who the ultimate victor is, but there is still a fair amount going on here. The Black Panther has been focused on taking the Force for himself, and now fans know why. The flashbacks to the first issue, along with the recap of everything that has happened in the book since then, give readers a clear picture of why he is so set on winning the tournament. There are also hints that Black Panther feels something even worse is on the way, but what could it be?

The Black Panther is a driven and intense individual who will do what it takes to keep people safe and the Phoenix Force tournament has intensified those qualities. Avengers #44 is on sale in print and digital April 7.


https://screenrant.com/avengers-44-black-panther-phoenix-force-tournament/
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Black Panther Avengers #44 coming next week
« Reply #1103 on: April 05, 2021, 12:51:57 am »
Black Panther Explains Why He Must Become The New Phoenix
Black Panther has been more focused than anyone else on winning the Phoenix Force Tournament, and now Marvel reveals why in a sneak preview!

BY SHAUN CORLEY



Throughout the Phoenix Force tournament that has been raging in the pages of the Avengers, the Black Panther, perhaps more than any other contestant, has been focused on winning, which would him give control of the powerful Phoenix Force. Now, in a preview for Avengers #44, readers learn why the Black Panther has been so focused on winning the tournament.

The Phoenix Force is a cosmic entity in the Marvel Universe, and one of its most powerful; past wielders of the Force have been capable of wiping out whole star systems. The Force has been without a host for a while now and has decided to find a new one. To that end it came to Earth to hold a special tournament to find its next host. The Avengers have been participating, as have a number of second-string heroes as well a few villains. The previous issue saw Captain America and Black Panther, both super-charged with the Phoenix's powers, begin the final battle for control of the Force. Now readers see why there is a special reason the Panther has been so focused on winning.

In a preview for the new issue, written by Jason Aaron with art by Javier Garron and colors by David Curiel, the two heroes are locked in combat, with neither getting the true upper hand. Captain America asks if the Panther has figured “a way out of this Phoenix mess.” Panther does not reply, and Cap realizes Panther is in it to win it. He cannot understand why, given the Force’s destructive past, Panther would ever want it, especially given how powerful the current Avengers roster is. Readers are reminded of a cave painting Black Panther saw in the first issue of the current run, and the paintings, coupled with the events of the past few years - such as meeting the Stone Age Avengers, the reborn Starbrand, or Thor becoming the All-Father - have made Panther afraid. He is fearful that Earth will not survive “this age of chaos” and possession of the Phoenix Force is the only way forward.









The preview ends there, so readers do not see who the ultimate victor is, but there is still a fair amount going on here. The Black Panther has been focused on taking the Force for himself, and now fans know why. The flashbacks to the first issue, along with the recap of everything that has happened in the book since then, give readers a clear picture of why he is so set on winning the tournament. There are also hints that Black Panther feels something even worse is on the way, but what could it be?

The Black Panther is a driven and intense individual who will do what it takes to keep people safe and the Phoenix Force tournament has intensified those qualities. Avengers #44 is on sale in print and digital April 7.


https://screenrant.com/avengers-44-black-panther-phoenix-force-tournament/



First and foremost? Thank you Brother Ture for this Preview! I love the art ,the story in general, and the shine that BP is getting. I and pretty much everyone else in the universe also want to know who'd win a throwdown between BP and Cap.

This doesn't make sense. T'Challa's soul is bound to OGPG and Bast. Even if Aaron respects the drivel that is TurnCoates' run and figures that T'Challa is for now decoupled from Bast? He's STILL linked to OGPG, as Jonathan Maberry's run obliquely hinted at when T'Challa got those runes etched on his skin and had his Panther powers returned from a "...mysterious Panther entity..." that WASN'T Bast. This "...mysterious Panther entity..." is almost certainly OGPG [ OG Panther God, who was a MALE...remember? ]






I also find more than a bit of a problem with T'Challa determining to wield the power of The Phoenix, considering that characters like Iron Man can craft a Phoenix Buster armor...and Wakanda has had literally more than a million years to develop ways and means to defeat, deflect, contain, etc etc The Phoenix. I cannot believe that The Black Panthers and Wakanda didn't come up with The Phoenix Protocols. Wielding The Phoenix Force is clearly NOT the move.

Now. Is it me? Or was this "stalemate" between The Black Panther and Captain America still slightly more in favor of Cap than BP? It seems to me that the most effective techniques were attempted by Cap. The flying arm bar, the clean landed strike of his thrown shield, throwing T'Challa off the cliff, etc. The only technique showing h2h prowess vs Cap that T'Challa seemed to have executed was a nearly successful belly to back suplex. Jason Aaron has clearly decided that Cap has the edge over BP in h2h whereas T'Challa is the more complete planner and possessed of sorcerous power because of his Panther lineage.

Btw for those of you who don't know...there IS a difference between a sorcerer and a wizard. A sorcerer was BORN with his/her/their power or knowledge, whereas a wizard HAS TO STUDY, TO TRAIN, TO PRACTICE in order to gain knowledge, power, etc. T'Challa and The Black Panthers are sorcerers. And YES, sorcerers can ALSO be wizards...as in they studied the arcane arts to develop powers/knowledge/both/whatever that is beyond those they were born with. Especially given her walk amongst The Djalia, I could see Shuri taking this path...and becoming not quite Dr. Voodoo level powerful, but probably around Dr. Doom level of power in the magical arts. I could see T'Challa studying magic, but he'd do something really innovative and different from what other spellcasters would do. I could see him developing a blend of Empirikul, Elemental, Oracular/Clairvoyant/Pre and/or Post Cognition/Information gathering and Baron Mordo style powers. These non-flashy, stealth, but immensely potent abilities would fit his low pro, misdirection oriented, mystery laden style and profile.

Now, back to the story.

Clearly neither T'Challa nor Cap actually becomes The New Phoenix, which means that T'Challa hasn't extrapolated from the current circumstances with sufficient acumen to deduce who The Phoenix Force would select if neither BP or Cap becomes the NEW host for Phoenix. After more than a million years of studying and prepping for The Phoenix to return and meddle in Wakanda's affairs? I find this VERY hard to believe. I would expect Phoenix Warps to propel the great cosmic fire bird into Limbo like dimensions where it cannot truly harm anything, or hypertech Vibranium based Phoenix Grids to ensnare the great fire bird, or Phoenix Shields to protect against it and Phoenix Bombs to destroy it if needed.  I also find it hard to believe that T'Challa would see the symbols from issue one and actually feel FEAR as a result of it. WORRY? Yes. GREAT CONCERN? Yes. FEAR? NO. I would think that such a set of symbols would set into motion T'Challa's greatest thinking, his shrewdest planning, and the activation of long standing Phoenix Protocols. These same Protocols? Are why Wakanda was NEVER actually threatened by The Phoenix Five. The Phoenix Five got okey-doked by Wakanda's Phoenix Protocols which long prepped for such an eventuality.

You know...the resurrected human avatar and "Mother" of Thor would be a good choice for TNP [ The New Phoenix ], and surprising at this point. Plus be the source of many current and forthcoming plots and storylines.

Regardless? I like a lot of what Aaron is doing, but this part? Not so much. I still hold out hope that Aaron will bring this story to a satisfactory conclusion, regardless of whether I largely agree with it or not. And I would DEFINITELY want Aaron's BP over TurnCoates' scripted bowel movements.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 01:33:19 am by supreme illuminati »
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Offline Ezyo

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Re: Black Panther Avengers #44 *** Preview ***
« Reply #1104 on: April 05, 2021, 07:05:44 am »
Yeah Cap had the advantage on the preview, T'Challa only got one solid jit, a kick in the last panel, other then the suplex. I'm sure there is more to the fight that we haven't seen but yeah a little one sided, there. As for what Cap is thinking? Of JA follows up on a couple issues back when the Phoenix is talking to him, about how it wanted him to win, T'Challa hinted that he had a plan in place, I don't think that the plan is for T'Challa to take the force for himself. He clearly told the Phoenix that he had no intention of becoming the next Host. Hopefully we see his plan unfold and hopefully it's satisfying

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Black Panther Avengers #44 *** Preview ***
« Reply #1105 on: April 05, 2021, 11:51:58 am »
Yeah Cap had the advantage on the preview, T'Challa only got one solid jit, a kick in the last panel, other then the suplex. I'm sure there is more to the fight that we haven't seen but yeah a little one sided, there. As for what Cap is thinking? Of JA follows up on a couple issues back when the Phoenix is talking to him, about how it wanted him to win, T'Challa hinted that he had a plan in place, I don't think that the plan is for T'Challa to take the force for himself. He clearly told the Phoenix that he had no intention of becoming the next Host. Hopefully we see his plan unfold and hopefully it's satisfying

You know...that "kick" is also a way to escape the arm bar. It may not be a "kick" at all, it may simply be a leverage point used to free yourself from an armbar that isn't fully locked in. I use it in the scramble to escape arm bars and arm locks all the time [ fellow HEF self defense practitioners, back me up here? ] And even if it's meant to be a kick? It's not CLEARLY a "kick". Cap CLEARLY clocked BP with his shield, was rockin the arm bar, got the 2 on 1, and even showed that in h2h he could "out-devious" and even distract the Master Manipulator BP when he said: "I see you fixed that hitch in your roundhouse." then clocked BP while BP was momentarily distracted and asking: "What hitch in my...?"

I don't like that part, but I see why JA chose to use that tactic in his narrative. He has to give CAP some kind of formidable nod and justification for being able to hang with BP.

Unfortunately? It gives rise to less than favorable cross comparisons. If DOOM just dominated CAP in their throwdown, yet CAP is beating or hanging tough with BP...it seems [ via some controversial ole "MMA math" ] that JA thinks that DOOM can and will dominate BP if they cross paths. Just as one of our OG's here reported that JA said that he couldn't see how Wakanda could defeat The Skrulls, in an interview regarding SWaD. That doesn't sit well with me, at all. I can see clearly how BP can beat them all, while giving each of these formidable foes their full powers and full range of resistance, showing these adversaries to be genuinely deadly opponents not to be trifled with...and not varying from already established canon, to boot.

Under my pen? T'Challa would beat Doom with the literal flick of a button. Doom can't outsmart, out tech or out fight T'Challa. Doom's biggest advantage...or so most would think...is his magic prowess. T'Challa would literally neutralize that magic advantage with the flick of a button, showing the formidable KaPsiTech advantage he and Wakanda possesses. And remember: unlike Doom? T'Challa is a sorcerer. He already knows how Doom summons and channels his arcane energy. Just like T'Challa did with Mephisto? He'd simply drop a Anti-Magic Force Field [ aka "Anti-Magic Shell" for those of us who are Old Skool D&D nerds like yours truly ] on Doom, neutralizing all magic that Victor might attempt. Now Doom has no other choice but to fight T'Challa h2h. T'Challa would remind Doom of that speech that Doom gave him on Battleworld, wherein Doom declared T'Challa to be something lesser...and point out all along that it was Doom who was the lesser person, the lesser power, to T'Challa. Then T'Challa would literally beat Doom out of his armor, dismissively neutralize Doom's armor defenses, prepare to launch the killing blow...

...then Happy Pants Panther would intervene. Tell T'Challa that Doom is needed in the future for T'Challa's own plans, and therefore Doom must survive this encounter.

Anyway. Back to JA and this issue #44.

Despite my misgivings as laid out above? The Preview has done its job. I am definitely eager for this issue and I am definitely buying it.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 04:30:53 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Offline Ture

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Re: Black Panther Avengers #44 *** Preview ***
« Reply #1106 on: April 06, 2021, 09:17:56 pm »


Simply put Captain America shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe with the Black Panther.

Logical conjecture would state that without the herb, physically, T'Challa should be way beyond peak human. That means he surpasses Batman by a very significant margin. T'Challa (along with most Wakandans) should be doing advanced feats of physical and mental prowess akin to those performed  in the best martial arts films... i.e. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Why? Based on thousands of years of genetic evolution in an enriched environment void of the contaminants present in most of the world, combined with the millennia old martial culture that had to fend off human, alien, technological and metaphysical threats. All this is yoked to social psychological and spiritual conditioning that ranges from prebirth to post death.This alone should make him at the very more than Cap's equal. With the herb T'Challa should be in Spider-man's physical class.

Besides the physical disadvantage Captain America should have against the Black Panther there remains yet another under utilized handicap. T'Challa should have a long held mastery over all things vibranium and vibranium related. He should be able to control Cap's shield with greater ease than he did Thor's hammer.

The Black Panther's abilities have been lying dormant due to writers' ignorance, indifference or social agenda. Several decades past stories made mention of T'Challa's ability to engage in the mystic arts and even suggested that he had  some kind of advance healing. In more recent times the Black Panther solo film showed T'Challa healing from wounds instantly after ingesting the HSH, even coming back from the brink of death.

















These powers and skill sets need to be fleshed out more especially in the context of a hero and his nation that by definition must reflect such.

Well, all that is left to do is read tomorrow's Black Panther's Avengers and see what happens.
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Black Panther Avengers #44
« Reply #1107 on: April 07, 2021, 11:25:13 am »
This is a magnificent post [ AGAIN ], Brother Ture! I had no idea that SOLO AVENGERS existed at all until you shared this excellent story!

Imo ALL the previous incarnations of BP should be welded INTO ONE BP, and this single aggregate BP should be THE STANDARD BP. I am definitely going to be back a bit later to delve much more deeply into this material. Thank you for your post, Brother Ture.
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Re: Black Panther Avengers #44 *** Preview ***
« Reply #1108 on: April 09, 2021, 10:07:56 am »


Simply put Captain America shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe with the Black Panther.

Logical conjecture would state that without the herb, physically, T'Challa should be way beyond peak human. That means he surpasses Batman by a very significant margin. T'Challa (along with most Wakandans) should be doing advanced feats of physical and mental prowess akin to those performed  in the best martial arts films... i.e. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Why? Based on thousands of years of genetic evolution in an enriched environment void of the contaminants present in most of the world, combined with the millennia old martial culture that had to fend off human, alien, technological and metaphysical threats. All this is yoked to social psychological and spiritual conditioning that ranges from prebirth to post death.This alone should make him at the very more than Cap's equal. With the herb T'Challa should be in Spider-man's physical class.

Besides the physical disadvantage Captain America should have against the Black Panther there remains yet another under utilized handicap. T'Challa should have a long held mastery over all things vibranium and vibranium related. He should be able to control Cap's shield with greater ease than he did Thor's hammer.

The Black Panther's abilities have been lying dormant due to writers' ignorance, indifference or social agenda. Several decades past stories made mention of T'Challa's ability to engage in the mystic arts and even suggested that he had  some kind of advance healing. In more recent times the Black Panther solo film showed T'Challa healing from wounds instantly after ingesting the HSH, even coming back from the brink of death.

















These powers and skill sets need to be fleshed out more especially in the context of a hero and his nation that by definition must reflect such.

Well, all that is left to do is read tomorrow's Black Panther's Avengers and see what happens.






I love this post above. As usual, Brother Ture's well written, well thought out pieces evoke significant response from the reader...even if the reader doesn't publicly share such a response online.

Yes, I bought and read Avengers #44. I was a bit disappointed by it, but I liked its ending. I won't spoil it, but The New Phoenix winds up being one of the 3 women I predicted she'd be. I was quite pleased to see that Jason Aaron actually included Lunella aka Moon Girl in his run. I loved that touch, tbh. Thanks for that one, Aaron. And I also really like Aaron's apparent interest in BLADE. I think? Aaron should write a BLADE solo. He'd crush it.

Now back to Brother Ture's excellent post.

As usual, I agree with almost everything he wrote. Therefore I will limit myself to the areas that I "disagree" with Brother Ture, which is to say...I agree with Brother Ture's approach and idea. I simply think that these other ideas I'm about to enumerate are equally viable:

1. As most of you know, I'm not a proponent of T'Challa being "superhuman"...largely because we don't know what the limits of being "human" are. Many of the feats attributed to superhumans are fully within the range of performance of "nonsuperhumans". I also think it's very important to emphasize that BP...as he was conceived and existed for most of his time in the 616...is NOT a superhuman. Imo, the nonsuperhuman BP  makes him more relatable, more inspirational, more aspirational, and make his feats all the more incredible [ as the feats and victories of pre-Ultimates Captain America and Batman...who remains the "comic book standard" to this day...are ] and definitively cooler than Batman. Furthermore? As long as we entrust BP to actually superior writers who are fans of BP...the Redjacks, RH's, CJP's of the world, not the TurnCoates [  or any of the writers he let touch the BP series ] of the world...the nonsuperhuman BP imo would perforce make the writers of BP all the more exceptional in their thinking, plotting, creativity, etc as BP has to reliably uncover means to confront and overcome superhuman threats that vastly overpower him. How could BP believably do such a thing? Read point 2

2. BP could reliably face and overcome "superhuman" opponents by simply poring over and logically building upon [ when needed ] the feats that he's shown himself capable of since his inception. Without resorting to powers. As will be expounded upon later, T'Challa was initially very much written as a premier hunter and possessed of pantherine grace, silence, stalking ability, etc. It's nothing for T'Challa to repeatedly sneak up on or sneak by even the most wary of foes. T'Challa has a matchless affinity for the shadows...significantly superior to that of Bruce Wayne Batman or any other iteration of "Batman". Not only is T'Challa's agility astounding [ as will be expounded upon later ], his sheer speed...fleetness of foot...is unmatched in the non-superhuman speed category. His blitzes are the stuff of legend. He can sneak up on an opponent, get within striking distance of him/her/them, and then hit them with a 90 mph bltizing speed rush delivering a Montu style nerve strike. Or he can use Wakandan tech to strike them down from the shadows. This may sound impossible, but as experts have already proven: "In fact, out of all superhuman abilities, super speed is the one most attainable for the human body if you are conditioned for it!... That's all assuming you can maintain a 200,000 calorie a day diet to keep your body from devouring itself."

Wakandan advances in nutrition make such an extreme calorie count completely unnecessary. 1,400 Wakandan calories could and does do the trick quite nicely.

Furthermore, since both BP and CA have enlarged suprachiasmatic nuclei [ the part of the body that regulates speed of movement ], they both have sheer foot speed which seems beyond the human, but which in reality are not. The reason that BP's speed is sharply superior to CA's speed is that BP's suprachiasmatic nucleus [ due to more than a million years of vastly superior Wakandan nutrition and vastly superior benign super eugenics ] is also incredibly refined, and both far more potent and efficient. So BP can easily move for extended periods of times 20x faster than the speeds that the fastest Olympic sprinters could ever hope to reach. Humans are theoretically able to reach a maximum sprint of 40 miles per hour. That is not an exaggeration: https://www.livescience.com/8039-humans-run-40-mph-theory.html

Because T'Challa's suprachiasmatic nucleus is both 10 times the size of AND times MORE EFFICIENT than the average human's suprachiasmatic nucleus? T'Challa can sprint at 800-1000 mph max. Cap's suprachiasmatic nucleus is ridiculously off the charts too, but not an equal to BP's. So CA can reach anywhere from 500-600 mph for short bursts. That sounds truly insanely superhuman, doesn't it? But it's NOT. It's ACTUALLY PEAK HUMAN. And that, my friends, is just PART of the argument I have for keeping T'Challa as a PEAK HUMAN and EXPLORING WHAT PEAK HUMAN ABILITY ACTUALLY MEANS, instead of opting for slapping the term "SUPERhuman" on that which is actually "PEAK human".

How can we give T'Challa believable abilities that won't make him a overpowered character? Not hard to do. For instance, T'Challa still has ESP [ as Happy Pants Panther showed under CJP's pen ] and a variety of other "non-flashy" mental abilities which are very complementary to his abilities as a sorcerer and directly in line with the spiritual and mental abilities routinely assigned to fully realized warrior-scholar-poet-spiritualist ultragenius royalty of Afrika, who are routinely attuned to the spiritual energies of their deities. T'Challa would have Precognitive and Postcognitive abilities, which are abilities that nonsuperhumans semiregularly demonstrate. T'Challa would have the most developed Proximity Sense on Earth. This Proximity Sense was detailed by none other than Don McGregor in his book Panther's Prey. In it, he specifies that T'Challa's proprioceptive sense extends quite a ways from his body, which is why he leaps/dodges/etc, lands, rebounds, glissades to, on and from objects/people with such flawless accuracy and unmatched ability. This is why he...as a normal human...has the agility reflexes quickness etc superior to that of Captain America and on par with or superior to that of Peter Parker Spider-Man, the bouncing Beast, Nightcrawler, etc. This same Proximity Sense enables him to determine without error if someone is looking at or thinking of him within a particular radius and/or distance, if a person or object is near him [ even if it's on another plane like The Astral Plane ], and warns him even if a being/entity is teleporting into/out of his sensory range. These abilities have been displayed by T'Challa numerous times and for decades since his inception, but after Panther's Prey these abilities of his were moved away from in order to emphasize other abilities and skills he has...like his incredible intelligence.

As I said, I propose that we bring these abilities of his back. T'Challa was a peerless stalker and hunter, the heroic equivalent or superior to Kraven; superior to Wolverine and Sabertooth. He should be written as such again. T'Challa should possess in full measure all of the abilities that Afrikan lore bestows upon nonsuperhuman kings of merit and virtue. T'Challa should be immune to poisons, as his peak human immune system and mastery of his body is such that he could break down and identify poisons at will...similar to the Bene Gesserit of Dune. This is an ability long known and famously practiced by the wise, incredibly gifted and expert practitioners of Afrikan spirituality. T'Challa...even without Bast's blessings...should be proof against the viruses/bites/etc. of vampires, werewolves, zombies etc insofar as turning him into these creatures are concerned. This is a long exalted ability of Afrikan ngola [ rulers ].

Being spiritually aligned with the sacred land of The Wakandas, T'Challa...without Bast's blessing as King of the Dead...should be able to communicate with all the spirits of the land. Not just human spirits; ALL the spirits of the Wakandas. Without the benefit of spells he cast to vastly multiply the number of spirits with which he can communicate at once, T'Challa would be able to communicate at will with up to 20 such spirits at a time. Shuri's time in The Djalia allows her to speak to approximately double the spirits that T'Challa can; prior to that, Shuri had the same limitations and advantages that T'Challa did. As the current and reigning King of the Dead? T'Challa can communicate with the innumerable dead of any land or dimension at will.

3. Regarding specifically the issue of strength. Imo, Brother Ture is right. T'Challa would very much surpass Bruce Wayne Batman in any constest of strength...but not because T'Challa is SUPERhuman. He's simply A HIGHER AND GREATER PEAK HUMAN than Bruce Wayne is.

Imo T'Challa and Captain America should walk around with pinnacle examples of that which in the USA is known as "Hysterical Strength". One example of "Hysterical Strength" is when two girls...a 16 year old and a 14 year old...lifted a TRACTOR off of their trapped father. A commercial tractor? Weighs about 16,000 pounds. This is the strength that men like T'Challa and Captain America wield when in a non-adrenalized state. In cases of extreme necessity and with maximal effort, these men may lift a fully loaded passenger bus...some 44,000 pounds...for the briefest of moments. Despite stats that vastly belie his strength, Spider-Man has lifted fully loaded passenger buses over his head numerous times since his inception, and while he strained to do so? Such a feat was definitely NOT his maximum level of strength. Spider-Man can probably lift about 30 metric tonnes.

4. T'Challa's mastery of Montu...the Afrikan fighting spiritual and whole human development warrior systems...should be a very consistent part of the character. While not foundational to him like Wushu is to Shang-Chi and Iron Fist, it's every bit as essential as his hypersenses and hyperintellect. Jason Aaron got this right about the character when he wrote T'Challa fighting during the whole Khonshu storyline.  This same mastery should figure prominently in his strategic analysis of opponents' physical attacks and his tactical counter or lead strikes. When combined with his peerless intellect and hypersenses, he can easily decipher the weak points of structures and apply the requisite weapon or [ rarely ] physical force to destroy such structures...or determine exactly what's needed in order to make a structure nearly invulnerable to destructive forces of any kind. He could also use his Montu to recognize and recall specific fighting styles.


Okay, I'll stop there...even though I have a lot more to share. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 10:19:24 am by supreme illuminati »
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Offline Ture

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Re: Black Panther Avengers #44
« Reply #1109 on: April 09, 2021, 01:29:21 pm »
My humble gratitude to you Supreme Illuminati. As usual I appreciate your commentary and feedback.

Speaking outside of an Afrakaltural context, peak human and super human are just classifications of the human condition as are weak human or diseased human. To your point, not knowing the limits of being "human" allows all disparities and variations present to remain in the context of human existence. Vampires, zombies and to the chagrin of many I would argue that mutants are all human. The Hulk is human. Spider-man is human. The Flash is human. Graviton and the Molecule Man are both human. So I can concur in practice with your postulate on human limitations. To speak outside human confines we have to go to the likes of Thor, Thanos, Superman (a Kryptonian mutate), Martian Manhuter and The Impossible Man to name but a few.

So when I see Black Panther I see a super human and when I view Wakanda I view a superior society when in comparison to some superheroes and civilizations respectively. In graphic novels and their motion picture spin offs human categorization serves some useful purposes for comparison and contrast. This is why I so appreciated Marvel's original The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. It was a very good first attempt at being an encyclopedia for superheroes.



My dissatisfaction lied in the lack of detail on the Black Panther. It is not overpowering to me to state the Black Panther to be at Spider-Man levels in terms of strength and agility and near Quicksilver levels in terms of short burst speed and reaction. It is not an overpowering to state that the Black Panther has telepathic abilities or some variation thereof. It was done back in the late seventies and some writers were mindful enough to follow up on it.







T'Challa's spiritual communing with his ancestors and ancestresses and yoking to an actual deity puts the Black Panther on another tier of human powers and abilities. In conclusion while there are most certainly limits to both the Black Panther and the human condition being super human isn't one of them. It is the lethargy in fleshing out the Black Panther coupled with the outright cultural apathy and character inconsistencies that have been the three greatest foes of the Black Panther outside the pages of his comic book.















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« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 01:33:26 pm by Ture »
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