Author Topic: Star Trek franchise  (Read 40492 times)

Online Emperorjones

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10502
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #345 on: October 19, 2020, 07:25:21 pm »

On the other hand, I don't feel like Voyager ever got any better and...




You were doing so well until you wrote this and your 'feelings' got involved.   ;)

Hey, would you be happier if I said that Voyager was objectively worse than both TNG and DS9?

There certainly was an clearly inept handling of characters and cast.

They gave Chaotay nothing to do. They gave Harry Kim nothing to do.

Tuvok got little to do considering the series Vulcan usually is the second most important character on a Trek series after the Captain.

Imagine what that show would have been like had the Doctor NOT been a breakout character.

While The Doctor was a breakout character, I really think your speculation should apply to Seven of Nine because when she came on the series that's when it started revolving around her and the series went Borg crazy, even bringing in Borg children, while defanging the Borg.

On paper the Voyager crew were pretty interesting. With Tuvok being the first full blooded Vulcan main cast member of a Trek series, I felt there was a lot of missed opportunities with him. Even his friendship with Janeway wasn't explored enough because she relied on Chakotay and then came to mentor/be a surrogate mother to Seven. So we never really got enough of the close Kirk/Spock kind of bond between Tuvok and Janeway, though I thought Mulgrew did a good job filling in the blanks there in "Endgame." It also irked me that they would make Tuvok one of the mentally weakest characters. I didn't like it that he was overwhelmed that time the Voyager crew allowed themselves to be assimilated in "Unimatrix Zero". Tuvok, with his Vulcan mental discipline, should've been the last person to succumb to that.

Chakotay, the moment he put on the Starfleet uniform at the end of "Caretaker" it took a lot away from his character. I still like the character but they ran out of stuff to do with him. Same with Harry Kim. They didn't even promote him in seven years, a la ENT's Mayweather (but that was even worse for Mayweather because he didn't get promoted in a decade aboard the NX-01).

I thought Paris and Torres got their moments, but of course there could always been more. It was interesting that Torres was basically a tragic mulatta character. I do wish that they had been able to make Paris the Nicholas Locarno character he had played on TNG, and perhaps he would've been more edgier and had a longer redemption arc. Wasn't a fan of Neelix (liked the actor from Benson but found Neelix often annoying). Kes was just there for me. Didn't hate her, but didn't love her either.

I think The Doctor and Seven of Nine were the best written characters on the series.

Offline Battle

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10456
  • M.A.X. Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #346 on: October 19, 2020, 07:39:10 pm »
I've already laid out some of the reasons why I think DS9 is the best series. The writing, the character development, and the Dominion War are the reasons I put it above the other series, to keep it short. It's the most consistent series in terms of quality for me.



Did it ever occur to you that is the exact reason why folks [read: myself]  didn't find the series enjoyable?

I wasn't particularly interested in a war in Star Trek.  I was more interested in exploration and the science-fiction portion of storytelling which is what Star Trek is all about.  That's why 'Voyager' was more appealing.

After the 'Deep Space 9' series ended, went back to a few episodes to see what all the commotion was about when it went into syndication;  there were a few interesting stories here and there, however, not enough to deem the series greater than all the other Star Trek titles.








Haven't seen enough TAS and Lower Decks yet. I don't consider Short Treks a series really because they are connected to various series, like DISCO, even TOS, and the future Strange New Worlds.


The 'Short Treks' are far more preferable and entertaining [to me] than 'Lower Decks';   saw the first episode of 'Lower Decks' and I swear, I couldn't even tolerate more than 3 minutes of it;  the storytelling strikes the wrong tone especially for a animated show that is supposedly a comedy but I see nothing funny about it, at all.     

'Lower Decks' is the second, to my knowledge, animated Star Trek television show since Filmation's version from the early 1970s which was a Emmy Award winning television show. 

So, that new animated TV show certainly has its work cut out for it.  :)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 08:15:13 pm by Battle »

Online Emperorjones

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10502
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #347 on: October 20, 2020, 04:33:05 am »
I've already laid out some of the reasons why I think DS9 is the best series. The writing, the character development, and the Dominion War are the reasons I put it above the other series, to keep it short. It's the most consistent series in terms of quality for me.



Did it ever occur to you that is the exact reason why folks [read: myself]  didn't find the series enjoyable?

I wasn't particularly interested in a war in Star Trek.  I was more interested in exploration and the science-fiction portion of storytelling which is what Star Trek is all about.  That's why 'Voyager' was more appealing.

After the 'Deep Space 9' series ended, went back to a few episodes to see what all the commotion was about when it went into syndication;  there were a few interesting stories here and there, however, not enough to deem the series greater than all the other Star Trek titles.








Haven't seen enough TAS and Lower Decks yet. I don't consider Short Treks a series really because they are connected to various series, like DISCO, even TOS, and the future Strange New Worlds.


The 'Short Treks' are far more preferable and entertaining [to me] than 'Lower Decks';   saw the first episode of 'Lower Decks' and I swear, I couldn't even tolerate more than 3 minutes of it;  the storytelling strikes the wrong tone especially for a animated show that is supposedly a comedy but I see nothing funny about it, at all.     

'Lower Decks' is the second, to my knowledge, animated Star Trek television show since Filmation's version from the early 1970s which was a Emmy Award winning television show. 

So, that new animated TV show certainly has its work cut out for it.  :)

It didn't occur to me because you didn't say anything about why you didn't like DS9 beforehand. You were asking what I liked about the series and I told you, simple as that. I can't read your mind. If you want to say something, just say it, and not ask questions that you might not really want answers to. There's a lot of Trek fans who didn't like DS9 because it was set on a space station and not a starship, that it did explore a war in greater depth than any Trek series (and Trek uber producer Rick Berman also had misgivings about the Dominion War), and that's fine. Everyone has their own things they like or take from Trek. For good or ill for some, Trek has moved more in DS9's direction after the series in a lot of ways, with more serialized storytelling, especially in ENT's last two seasons and with Discovery and Picard. Also, DISCO explored another war, though not as well as DS9 did it.

Though DS9 had episodic episodes, it was way more serialized than TOS and TNG so it necessitates more investment to fully appreciate the richness of the storytelling and character development. So far, I don't think the serialized storytelling in DISCO and Picard has been as good, and the episodes don't stand up enough on their own without seeing the whole seasons. DS9 has standalone episodes, but even a lot of their serialized (Klingon or Dominion War) episodes were often good as just episodes to look at by themselves.

I am looking forward to Strange New Worlds and the promise of more episodic storytelling, because I don't think CBS All Access Trek has been great at making season-long compelling story arcs. From what I've heard about Lower Decks that might be changing but I'll judge that for myself whenever I get to see all the first season.

Online Emperorjones

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10502
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #348 on: October 20, 2020, 04:44:48 am »
10 Reasons Benjamin Sisko Is Star Trek's Greatest Ever Captain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ_q2BHQ-YY

Offline Battle

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10456
  • M.A.X. Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #349 on: October 20, 2020, 07:37:41 am »
Would you have felt the same if the positions between Benjamin Sisko & Catherine Janeway were switched?  If Captain Sisko were exiled into the Delta Quadrant and Captain Janeway fought in the Dominion War?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 07:47:36 am by Battle »

Online Emperorjones

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10502
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #350 on: October 20, 2020, 02:35:59 pm »
Would you have felt the same if the positions between Benjamin Sisko & Catherine Janeway were switched?  If Captain Sisko were exiled into the Delta Quadrant and Captain Janeway fought in the Dominion War?

No. The video was pretty specific in the things that were particular to Sisko and not the other captains. I haven't looked at enough of Voyager to do a fair comparison, but since you asked, I'm sure Janeway would've done well in the Dominion War and Sisko would've done well in the Delta Quadrant. Even though I thought they went too far with it, Janeway basically took out the Borg Collective, whereas one Borg cube alone had cleaved through Starfleet in Picard's time.

Though I think Sisko might not have stranded his crew in the Delta Quadrant like Janeway did, especially if Jake wasn't with him aboard Voyager; he would want to get home period. Janeway did have a hard-edged side, like when she tortured, or was about to torture the Equinox prisoners or when she split Tuvix, but that was later on in the series I would argue, whereas Sisko wasn't playing around much at all for the whole seven seasons. Even if he had decided to save the Ocampans at the expense of getting home, he would've been more focused on finding a way home versus exploring the Delta Quadrant like Janeway's Voyager often did.

Important things to consider for Sisko and Janeway here is Sisko's role as Emissary. If Janeway had not had that role then she would've been just another captain, and once DS9 became important due to the discovery of the wormhole, a more seasoned officer-a commodore or admiral even-might have been given command. Sisko, a commander at the time (they love starting off the black leads as non-captains) was given DS9 with the idea that it was a backwater station until he discovered the wormhole and contacted the Prophets, making him and the station major players. Janeway for the most part was just a generic Starfleet captain with none of that rich backstory. Certainly a very good captain, and her scientific bent made her stand out from the other Trek leads, but still, just a very good, young or youngish captain, and not a prophesized religious icon like Sisko.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 02:39:19 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Battle

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10456
  • M.A.X. Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #351 on: October 20, 2020, 03:03:10 pm »
Sisko, a commander at the time (they love starting off the black leads as non-captains)





It's very common in the military to have the rank of commander as a captain within a command structure;  you can be a captain (the one in charge) but have the rank of lower tier.

 
No. The video was pretty specific in the things that were particular to Sisko and not the other captains. I haven't looked at enough of Voyager to do a fair comparison, but since you asked, I'm sure Janeway would've done well in the Dominion War and Sisko would've done well in the Delta Quadrant. Even though I thought they went too far with it, Janeway basically took out the Borg Collective, whereas one Borg cube alone had cleaved through Starfleet in Picard's time.

Though I think Sisko might not have stranded his crew in the Delta Quadrant like Janeway did, especially if Jake wasn't with him aboard Voyager; he would want to get home period. Janeway did have a hard-edged side, like when she tortured, or was about to torture the Equinox prisoners or when she split Tuvix, but that was later on in the series I would argue, whereas Sisko wasn't playing around much at all for the whole seven seasons. Even if he had decided to save the Ocampans at the expense of getting home, he would've been more focused on finding a way home versus exploring the Delta Quadrant like Janeway's Voyager often did.

Important things to consider for Sisko and Janeway here is Sisko's role as Emissary. If Janeway had not had that role then she would've been just another captain, and once DS9 became important due to the discovery of the wormhole, a more seasoned officer-a commodore or admiral even-might have been given command. Sisko, a commander at the time (they love starting off the black leads as non-captains) was given DS9 with the idea that it was a backwater station until he discovered the wormhole and contacted the Prophets, making him and the station major players. Janeway for the most part was just a generic Starfleet captain with none of that rich backstory. Certainly a very good captain, and her scientific bent made her stand out from the other Trek leads, but still, just a very good, young or youngish captain, and not a prophesized religious icon like Sisko.



The point I am making is that wars do not make Star Trek likable.  It's acceptable to have a few skirmishes here and there; spectacular ship-to-ship battles similar to what you'd see in 'First Contact'  but that's as far as it goes.

I would have liked Captain Sisko a lot better if he were stranded in the Delta Quadrant.  Instead, he gets placed on a stationary platform; to me, he was treated as a local McDonald's manager in the 'hood rather than a actual starship captain like Janeway; who didn't have any starfleet officers telling her what to do;  she KNOWS what to do in almost every circumstance.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 04:58:33 am by Battle »

Online Emperorjones

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10502
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #352 on: October 20, 2020, 04:34:41 pm »
Sisko, a commander at the time (they love starting off the black leads as non-captains)






It's very common in the military to have the rank of commander as a captain within a command structure;  you can be a captain (the one in charge) but have the rank of of lower tier.

 
No. The video was pretty specific in the things that were particular to Sisko and not the other captains. I haven't looked at enough of Voyager to do a fair comparison, but since you asked, I'm sure Janeway would've done well in the Dominion War and Sisko would've done well in the Delta Quadrant. Even though I thought they went too far with it, Janeway basically took out the Borg Collective, whereas one Borg cube alone had cleaved through Starfleet in Picard's time.

Though I think Sisko might not have stranded his crew in the Delta Quadrant like Janeway did, especially if Jake wasn't with him aboard Voyager; he would want to get home period. Janeway did have a hard-edged side, like when she tortured, or was about to torture the Equinox prisoners or when she split Tuvix, but that was later on in the series I would argue, whereas Sisko wasn't playing around much at all for the whole seven seasons. Even if he had decided to save the Ocampans at the expense of getting home, he would've been more focused on finding a way home versus exploring the Delta Quadrant like Janeway's Voyager often did.

Important things to consider for Sisko and Janeway here is Sisko's role as Emissary. If Janeway had not had that role then she would've been just another captain, and once DS9 became important due to the discovery of the wormhole, a more seasoned officer-a commodore or admiral even-might have been given command. Sisko, a commander at the time (they love starting off the black leads as non-captains) was given DS9 with the idea that it was a backwater station until he discovered the wormhole and contacted the Prophets, making him and the station major players. Janeway for the most part was just a generic Starfleet captain with none of that rich backstory. Certainly a very good captain, and her scientific bent made her stand out from the other Trek leads, but still, just a very good, young or youngish captain, and not a prophesized religious icon like Sisko.




The point I am making is that wars do not make Star Trek likable.  It's acceptable to have a few skirmishes here and there; spectacular ship-to-ship battles similar to what you'd see in 'First Contact'  but that's as far as it goes.

I would have liked Captain Sisko a lot better if he were stranded in the Delta Quadrant.  Instead, he gets placed on a stationary platform; to me, he was treated as a local McDonald's manager in the 'hood rather than a actual starship captain like Janeway; who didn't have any starfleet officers telling her what to do;  she KNOWS what to do in almost every circumstance.


Starfleet is not a real military, one, and Kirk, Picard, Archer, and Janeway all started off their respective series with the captain's rank, and I would say most Trek fans are used to series revolving around captain's, due to William Shatner's great performance as Kirk. It is curious that both Sisko and Burnham, being the only black leads thus far, started off as a rank lower than captain.

If you want to make a point about wars not making Trek likable how about you just say that? Instead of beating around the bush? Betazoids are not real, and I'm not doing a mind meld with you. As I wrote before, other people, including the 90s era Trek head honcho Rick Berman also had issues with the Dominion War. I never said that war made Trek likable, but I do think DS9 handled the Dominion War pretty well, and much better than DISCO did with their Klingon War. I also think the Dominion War allowed DS9 to do something TOS and TNG hadn't, so that made it stand out even more. Even during the Dominion War arcs they mixed in standalone or episodes not focused on the war, and didn't really bite down until the last several episodes-creating a mega-arc-in the last season.

I was fine with DS9 because it was different than TNG. TNG was still on when DS9 premiered so having two starship series on would've felt redundant IMO. I also liked the darker tone of DS9. It gave it more of its own identity. Voyager came off too often like TNG-lite. I remember when TNG/DS9 writer Ronald Moore was on Voyager for a minute and wrote about how he would've liked to have done the series. I think he incorporated some of his ideas later on when he did the new BSG, and gave that series feel more like a desperate fight for survival, which I think VOY should've been more of, like "The Year of Hell" or the crew from the Equinox, where we see the VOY crew really get their commitment to Federation principles challenged.

While Janeway was on her on, Sisko had a lot of leeway, just like Kirk and Picard (and you can throw in Archer, etc.) did as well. He made a lot of decisions and did things on his own, like when he poisoned a planet. I do think that sometimes Sisko got lost because DS9's ensemble was so strong, it felt like he wasn't at the heart of the series sometimes. I'm glad that in the last season they made sure to bring it back home to him and have the fate of Bajor and perhaps the galaxy hinge on him.

In the novels, Sisko is the captain of the Galaxy-class USS Robinson now (which I think is named after Jackie Robinson), so in one reality Sisko is a starship commander. Of course the Trek novel 'canon' has now been overwritten by Star Trek: Picard.

http://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Robinson_(NCC-71842)

http://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Original_Sin

Sisko came back in the novel Unity:

http://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Unity_(novel)

The novels also created a new DS9 station:

http://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Deep_Space_9_(II)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 04:38:27 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Battle

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10456
  • M.A.X. Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #353 on: October 20, 2020, 07:46:33 pm »
I almost forgot about Star Trek: Picard.

I have a lot of catching up to do.



Online Emperorjones

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10502
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #356 on: November 21, 2020, 06:13:26 pm »
HERBERT F. SOLOW, DESILU STUDIOS EXECUTIVE WHO SOLD STAR TREK TO NBC, DIES AT 89

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/herbert-f-solow-obituary-star-trek

Online Emperorjones

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10502
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #357 on: November 22, 2020, 06:20:03 am »
What We Left Behind: Looking Back at Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHixW9PLsAc

Free on You Tube right now.

Online Emperorjones

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10502
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #358 on: November 29, 2020, 09:50:55 am »
CBS All Access offered a free month, and I took the bait. I started looking at Discovery’s latest episode, “Unification III” and then worked my way backward so that I’m now caught up.

I had generally been up on a good deal of the spoilers for each episode, except “Unification III” going in, so I don’t know that affects how I feel about the season thus far. With “Unification III” it had some nice twists and reveals and I could enjoy learning as it went along versus the other episodes which I largely knew what was going to happen and more was looking at the execution.

There is a lot of potential for Discovery this season because it has finally broken free from the self-imposed constraints it placed on itself by setting the series a decade before TOS. That decision created the challenge of trying to keep the show fitting continuity from the other series, all under the gaze of hardcore fans.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Now, in Season 3, with Discovery catapulted into a future well beyond the other series, Discovery can tell its own story, the way it wants, and make all the changes or tweaks to aliens, starships, uniforms, etc., and not get the same kind of backlash. This is where Discovery should’ve started from day one.


All the artistic changes it made to the Klingons or its starship and uniform design wouldn’t have been an issue and left some detractors, who are really more upset about the Sonequa Martin-Green as the black female lead, Michael Burnham, or the other diverse characters, like gay couple Stamets (Anthony Rapp) and Culber (Wilson Cruz), one less thing to hide their animus behind. Just thinking about diversity, and the black characters on the series, I think Discovery has the most black characters as regular players of any Trek series, even DS9, the first series with a black lead. Burnham is the lead, but you have Culber, another medic Dr. Pollard, and on the bridge there’s Owosekun and Bryce, and then there’s various background actors. Also, there’s more black people, to my knowledge, behind the scenes too; though I wish they hadn’t done Walter Mosley dirty, because I would’ve liked to have seen what he brought to the series.

Midseason I’m iffy on Discovery Season 3. I thought the first two episodes were shaky and I must admit that I was not feeling Sonequa Martin-Green’s acting in those episodes. It felt disjointed and like she was acting from outside of herself. I’ve generally liked her acting in the first two seasons and put some of my issues on the writing. For this season I do think she’s done okay for most of the episodes I’ve seen, and
Spoiler (click to reveal)
plus I really like her braided hairstyle now. For the first episode, the special effects, and the introduction of David Ajala’s Cleveland “Book” Booker (Supergirl, Nightflyers) were the standouts. He’s a compelling presence and I think Booker had a lot of chemistry with Burnham right off. Green feels very natural with Ajala IMO. The first episode established that relationship while the second focused on the rest of the Discovery crew.

The third season is doing even more to give more personality and even some spotlight, both much needed, to the rest of the Discovery cast. There’s a lot of work still to be done there, but I appreciate their efforts thus far. They’ve given Dr. Culber more to do while also introducing
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Adira (Blu del Barrio), the first Trek character played by a nonbinary actor. The fourth episode, “Forget Me Not” which delved into Adira’s story is the one of the best of the season, if not the series. I liked it so much because of the character interaction and development it depicted. The repercussions to the choice the crew made to stay on Discovery even though it was going into the future finally got some exploration and I appreciated that. I often feel that the relationships on Discovery are unearned because these characters haven’t been given enough time for the audience to get to know them and believe they would sacrifice their families, friends, and personal futures, all for Michael Burnham, or even for the Discovery or Starfleet. It’s like the writers are trying to play catchup for the woefully underwritten supporting cast in Season 1, but have leapfrogged instead of taking the audience along step-by-step.

I’m okay with Discovery making the series about Michael Burnham and her journey, which was Bryan Fuller’s, the show’s original creator, intention all along. That said, I think the writing can be clunky as it attempts to keep the series revolving around her, and that sometimes they oversell how special or necessary she is. I saw it in two back-to-back episodes,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
even in my fav episode 4, where Culber insists that Burnham do something that he could’ve done himself, and they even had her point it out in one instance that he would’ve been an appropriate person to do the job.
To be the main character, Burnham doesn’t have to be involved in every major decision.

I’m okay with the other Discovery characters for the most part, except Ensign Tilly (Mary Wiseman),
Spoiler (click to reveal)
so I was grating my teeth when she got promoted to acting first officer in “Unification III”.
I think the character is too extra, too awkward, and the writers think it’s cute but she’s annoying to me.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The idea that the other Discovery crew would all just be happy about Tilly getting the job over them was unbelievable. To the writers’ credit, they have been developing a growing relationship between acting Captain Saru (Doug Jones) and Tilly, and Saru is concerned about trust, and he trusts Tilly more (which is warranted) than he does Burnham, the former first officer who got demoted at the end of the sixth episode.

I’m iffy as well about the pacing. The series is galloping along.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
They reconnected with the future Federation faster than I thought they would and integrated a bit too easily into the fold-there were some hiccups but I would’ve liked to have seen more-but with this being like a 13-episode or so season, they don’t have a lot of time to waste. If nothing else I wish they would just spread the time out, with a mention of dialogue, so we can see maybe six months or a year go by instead of some of these episodes happening right after the last one.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I do think the big mystery this season (who or what caused “The Burn” a catastrophe that splintered the future Federation) is better than last year’s “Red Angel” and has more room to grow than the first season’s Klingon War, but I’m not completely drawn into it yet. What appears to be the big enemy this season, The Emerald Chain crime syndicate, is growing on me. The villains encountered thus far haven’t been bad at all. I also like some of the future starships, costuming, technology, and how the Vulcans and Romulans wind up (though there are no mention of the Remans unfortunately).

I also think Season 3 is trying to be more optimistic than the other seasons, especially Season 1, which was very dark, until they tacked on a hopeful message in that season’s finale, which felt awkward. I do think the third (“People of Earth”), fourth (“Forget Me Not”), and “Unification III” did feel like old Trek episodes in a sense.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I also am enjoying the black love this season between Burnham and Booker. We haven’t seen this much black love on Trek since DS9 and it’s welcome.

Offline Battle

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 10456
  • M.A.X. Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Star Trek franchise
« Reply #359 on: November 29, 2020, 10:05:17 am »
CBS All Access offered a free month, and...



Awright!

I'mma wait until the 1st of December Twenty Twenty;  thanks for the info!   :)