Author Topic: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good  (Read 38370 times)

Offline Blanks

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2007, 05:24:57 am »
Well New Avengers was on my pull list because Cage was in it. The New Avengers will continue to get my money because Cage is the leader of the team. The minute and I do mean the minute that their is no significant black presence on the Avenger's roster I won't buy it anymore. I said it on the old forums and I will say it again. There are too many good black characters in marvel to have a team book with out any blacks on the team. If the writer isn't interested in appealing to the WHOLE comic book buying audience then I am not interested in buying their book.

here, here!

Offline sinjection

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2007, 09:49:52 am »




But talking about Black Avengers= racist, segregative and bad

Gotcha...

Just making sure.

Gotta love the larger comic-buying demographic!


Welllllll.....SOME of us "gotta love 'em". As for me, I think I'll pass  ;)
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Offline sinjection

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2007, 09:53:03 am »
I don't think you can compare a "white avengers" to a "black avengers."  Say you have 100 characters, 90 of which are white, 10 of which are minority.  There is obviously a good chance that all characters are white, not through choice of skin color but by the numbers.
That is exactly the point.  Why should 90% of them be white?  What is that supposed to be representative of?  Must be somebody's fantasy because it is not representative of the US or the world.

Furthermore, for the sake of argument let's accept your premise of 100 characters, 90 white.  If 6 were chosen randomly, there is only a 52% chance they would all be white.  That is, even with the 90% white hypothesis, nearly half the 6 member teams formed should have at least one minority member.  If the observable evidence shows a higher incidence of all-white teams -- and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it does -- then the selection processes employed show bias.  What a surprise.

Thank You, Curtis. Excellent response.
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Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2007, 11:40:20 am »
I don't think you can compare a "white avengers" to a "black avengers."  Say you have 100 characters, 90 of which are white, 10 of which are minority.  There is obviously a good chance that all characters are white, not through choice of skin color but by the numbers.
That is exactly the point.  Why should 90% of them be white?  What is that supposed to be representative of?  Must be somebody's fantasy because it is not representative of the US or the world.

Furthermore, for the sake of argument let's accept your premise of 100 characters, 90 white.  If 6 were chosen randomly, there is only a 52% chance they would all be white.  That is, even with the 90% white hypothesis, nearly half the 6 member teams formed should have at least one minority member.  If the observable evidence shows a higher incidence of all-white teams -- and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it does -- then the selection processes employed show bias.  What a surprise.

Thank You, Curtis. Excellent response.
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Offline Marvelous

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2007, 12:37:28 pm »
Someone mentioned today that IM is Rhodes cause Tony will be taken down hard in CW7.


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Offline JLI Jesse

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2007, 12:45:30 pm »
Someone mentioned today that IM is Rhodes cause Tony will be taken down hard in CW7.

Isn't Rhody War Machine in the Initiative?

Offline JRCarter

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2007, 05:40:21 pm »
Someone mentioned today that IM is Rhodes cause Tony will be taken down hard in CW7.

I should hope so.

Offline Open palm

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2007, 03:38:09 am »
Put him back in the chair! Oh yeah! Cripple him!  :D
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Offline sinjection

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2007, 05:29:44 am »
Someone mentioned today that IM is Rhodes cause Tony will be taken down hard in CW7.

Rhodes - in my always humble opinion, of course - would not be doing the already "Tony Stark-tarnished" mantle of Iron Man any favors. Be it in the comic books, the Iron Man animated television program and more recently, the Iron Man Animated Movie, James Rhodes has always come off as whining, selfish and at times in the t.v. Iron Man animated series, downright cowardly.
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Offline Toya

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2007, 06:40:36 pm »
Really people, really? This thread was good when it was exposing the double standards of the quaking ducks. But in an ironic twist, it has become the very double standard that it was mocking.


If the observable evidence shows a higher incidence of all-white teams -- and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it does -- then the selection processes employed show bias.  What a surprise.

Not all biases are bad. What if those happen to be the characters the writer wants to work with?
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Offline Yaw

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2007, 07:01:28 am »
Really people, really? This thread was good when it was exposing the double standards of the quaking ducks. But in an ironic twist, it has become the very double standard that it was mocking.

How so?


Quote from: Toya
Not all biases are bad. What if those happen to be the characters the writer wants to work with?


Well that will be a problem when the writing staff lacks ethnic/racial diversity.

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2007, 11:16:09 am »
Really people, really? This thread was good when it was exposing the double standards of the quaking ducks. But in an ironic twist, it has become the very double standard that it was mocking.


If the observable evidence shows a higher incidence of all-white teams -- and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it does -- then the selection processes employed show bias.  What a surprise.

Not all biases are bad. What if those happen to be the characters the writer wants to work with?
I'm not sure I understand your points here, Toya.  My point was that the evidence is different than what one would expect were the selections random which indicates that there is some other selection process going on, i.e. bias.  One cannot conclude based on this alone that that the bias is solely or even primarily racial in nature although the pattern is suggestive. 

I certainly invite you to elaborate on your points if you're so inclined.  Youthful enthusiasm notwithstanding, your views are always interesting.   ;)
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Offline Toya

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2007, 07:48:51 pm »
Yaw, Curtis, sorry if I'm was not clear before. I just felt that initially Yaw was exposing the hypocrisy of the quacking ducks who believe that an all black team is bad by showing their praise or lack of objection to an all white team.

But, it sounds like a few of you are saying that all white teams (based on any bias, from numbers to writer's choice) are in fact bad which would lead me to believe that all black teams (based on any bias, from numbers to writer's choice) are bad also. I don't know if you can criticize a system you then use to plead your case, so to speak.
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Offline sinjection

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2007, 01:01:06 am »

I'm not sure I understand your points here, Toya.....I certainly invite you to elaborate on your points if you're so inclined.  Youthful enthusiasm notwithstanding, your views are always interesting.   ;)

I must say that I strongly agree with your very accurate opinion of Toya's views and the "interesting", enthusiastic, intelligent and entertaining manner of her presentation of those views. Once again, Toya does not disappoint  :)

Yaw, Curtis, sorry if I'm was not clear before. I just felt that initially Yaw was exposing the hypocrisy of the quacking ducks who believe that an all black team is bad by showing their praise or lack of objection to an all white team.

But, it sounds like a few of you are saying that all white teams (based on any bias, from numbers to writer's choice) are in fact bad which would lead me to believe that all black teams (based on any bias, from numbers to writer's choice) are bad also. I don't know if you can criticize a system you then use to plead your case, so to speak.


Just adding some "sinjection sense" for the two cents it may be worth.....or not  :)

I don't want to take the discussion far afield, get off track, ramble....you know. I don't want to do all of the things I ALWAYS do in nearly every comment I post. If I do so now, please accept my apologies in advance.

Whites comprise the majority of the national population. Whites are the majority of consumers of various forms of entertainment - including comicbooks. Most, if not all, whites believe in "majority rules". Most might not have a problem with diversity as long as it doesn't lead so-called "minority groups" into thinking that assimilation into the predominant -"white" - culture isn't necessary or that it doesn't interfere with the ability of some whites to "borrow" from so-called "minority groups" those cultural concepts, practices, etc... many whites may have some affinity for or place some value upon and wish to incorporate into their own culture. When this "incorporation" or "appropriation" occurs, what was once a cultural concept or practice specific to a particular "minority group" becomes recognized as belonging to the "national culture" and that "national culture" is usually represented by white faces. This phenomena is pleasing to and reassuring to many white people who feel that they should always be represented as being "above all" and foremost in all things.

Many whites appreciate what is often described as "Soul Music" - the various genres of music born of the black American cultural experience. Many whites seem to appreciate "Soul Music" more when the artist performing the music is one of them. Many whites liked Chick Webb, but Benny Goodman was crowned the King of Swing. Many whites liked Fats Domino, Chuck Berry and Little Richard, but Elvis was crowned the King of Rock and Roll. Many whites may bristle when it is suggested that jazz music is the creation of black musical genius. Those whites will claim "co-ownership" of the genre sayiing jazz could not have been created if not for white-invented musical instruments and music theory conventions. What happened when the Jackson 5 emerged? White culture had to answer with the Osmond Brothers. New Kids On The Block...the so-called "boy band" comprised of white boys, created by a black man, as the answer for the youthful R&B performing group, "New Edition". In the past especially, whenever there has been any indication of black success in ANY endeavor, many whites cried out for a "great white hope" to restore their "prestige" in that endeavor. Recently in Illinois, the University of Illinois was forced to retire their 80+ year tradition of dressing up a white male student in a hodgepodge collection of "Indian" garb - which was meant to be pleasing to their eyes, not necessarily an accurate representation of authentic Native American people - and having that white male student jump around in a semblance of a battle dance. The character's name was "Cheif Illiniwek". Many Native Americans were offended by what they saw as a caricature and after long years of trying, were finally successful in getting the "Chief" retired. Many whites are angry. Some say, that "Illiniwek" wasn't meant to be part of Native American culture anyway. The "Cheif" was meant to be their little "fun thing" to do. The character - which was nothing more than a caricature of a "minority group" whose cultural aspects were "borrowed", "incorporated", and "appropriated" by white culture - wasn't meant so much to honor Native Americans as it was to give white people who happened to be fans of the "Fighting Illini" a "symbol" to rally around.

How does this relate to the discussion? The quacking ducks complained about "The Foundation" and "Black" because those groups were comprised of black superhero members only. Some of the ducks quacked, "What would happen if Captain America wanted to join the group?" and other nonsense. What those ducks were exhibiting was their reaction to what appeared to them to be rejection. They were "left out" and didn't like it. However, the characters Yaw and MM chose to comprise their organizations were characters they wanted to work with. For years, comicbooks published the adventures of white people for white people. However, black people and other "minority" people enjoyed those books as well and wished to see characters that reflected their humanity represented. The comicbook industry complied. Yet, because the larger comicbook buying demographic is white, male, often very whiny and more importantly, because they buy most of the books, the industry continues to cater to their tastes. The Black Panther, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Cloak -sans Dagger - etc...don't necessarily appeal to the tastes of the larger comicbook-buying demographic. But does that not mean that these characters or a team comprised of these characters or others like them, should not exist?

Years ago, major sports in the U.S. were closed to black athletes. Jackie Robinson broke baseball's very racist, racial barrier. His performance was outstanding and exemplary. Today, most of major league baseball's star players - though few in number - are black Americans. Hank Aaron holds what is considered by many to be the most prestigious record in American sports, the Homerun Record. This year, we were treated to the first of what I hope will be many more Super Bowls in which both football teams featured black coaches. The NFL is over three quarters black. Rap Music and Hip Hop Kulture were born of black culture. Today, if nothing has changed since I last checked, the larger rap music-buying demographic is white people. As long as white fans of this nation's major sporting endeavors are able to recognize and relate to a prominent white face, they can live with a Lovie Smith. Those white fans can live with a Tony Dungy as long as they are able to convince themselves that Tony Dungy would not have been the first black coach to win a Super Bowl had it not been for Peyton Manning. If Lovie Smith had won, all glory and praise would have gone to Brian Urlacher, Devin Hester's record-setting kickoff return notwithstanding.

In my always humble opinion, this issue of black superhero groups, white superhero groups and "diversity" is taking on an affirmative action, quotas type of feel. Centuries of racism, decades of white preferences made affirmative action necessary. Decades of black characters being ignored, under-utilized and/or always at the service and subservient to their white counterparts is what has given rise to the support for this current Black Panther publication, the marriage of Ororo to T'Challa and the desire to see a superhero group comprised primarily by black characters.

Okay, I'm through. What planet have I moved this discussion to now?  :D
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Offline Pantherfan

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Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2007, 05:45:25 am »
Let's not forget in the foreseebable future that hispanics will be the majority population. Also, I would like for some writer to take some other crimefighters of color out of limbo like Black Crow and American Eagle and dust them off and put them in a book like The Avengers.