Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)  (Read 29566 times)

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 01:39:58 pm »
hopefully Finn gets to become a more capable hero and adventurer.  The reluctant semi-competent goof only goes so far.


I don't understand what you mean.  ???

How was Finn reluctant?  Wasn't he the one who defected which aided the resistance in 'The Force Awakens'?

he defected to try and run away to the outer rim.

He had no desire to be a hero. He only did it for Rey

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 01:59:49 pm »
he defected to try and run away to the outer rim.

He had no desire to be a hero. He only did it for Rey



What movie were you watching?  ???

The movie that I saw is where Finn hesitated to slaughter unarmed villagers with the unit he was travelling with then decided to go through with the defection by freeing a captive prisoner by which both escaped together.

During his journey or 'run' (as you put it, 'cause that's what you do when you escape) he meets an attractive girl.

I dunno what your sexual orientation is in real-life but I'm attracted to females. I'm from the Ol' School.  :)
Especially physically attractive ones... so I can relate.

Finn was no more awkward than Luke when he first started out that why I don't understand what Hype means.  :-\

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 02:10:11 pm »
he defected to try and run away to the outer rim.

He had no desire to be a hero. He only did it for Rey



What movie were you watching?  ???

The movie that I saw is where Finn hesitated to slaughter unarmed villagers with the unit he was travelling with then decided to go through with the defection by freeing a captive prisoner by which both escaped together.

During his journey or 'run' (as you put it, 'cause that's what you do when you escape) he meets an attractive girl.

I dunno what your sexual orientation is in real-life but I'm attracted to females. I'm from the Ol' School.  :)
Especially physically attractive ones... so I can relate.

Finn was no more awkward than Luke when he first started out that why I don't understand what Hype means.  :-\

He left because they are slaughtering people. Yes you are right.

He freed a captive prisoner because the prisoner could FLY HIS ASS OUT OF THERE

He then spent the majority of the movie running and trying to get to the outer rim.

The only reason he DIDNT leave is because of Rey.

He did not join the fight because he was down for the cause. he RELUCTANTLY joined the fight to free Rey and then get back to running.

He fit the very definition of relunctant. And the very defintion of semi competent because he wasn't like his novel version (ie the best stormtrooper) at all.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2017, 02:28:54 pm »
He left because they are slaughtering people. Yes you are right.

He freed a captive prisoner...



Heh.

You were doing really well up until this part then I stopped reading.   

Let's go with what you're getting at...  Finn wanted the girl...

What's wrong with the possibility of romance in this Star Wars story between Finn and Rey?

Would you prefer to continue with the Han & Leah romance? 

'Cause from what I understand, that relationship didn't turn out so well.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2017, 02:32:05 pm »
He left because they are slaughtering people. Yes you are right.

He freed a captive prisoner...



Heh.

You were doing really well up until this part then I stopped reading.   

Let's go with what you're getting at...  Finn wanted the girl...

What's wrong with the possibility of romance in this Star Wars story between Finn and Rey?

Would you prefer to continue with the Han & Leah romance? 

'Cause from what I understand, that relationship didn't turn out so well.


oh cool, nice to have a discussion with someone that reads two lines.


Romance? You mean the kiss on the forehead he got after he got KTFO by Ren? Or the fact he got friendzoned while in said coma?

Im not getting at anything. Im getting at the fact Hypes definition for Finn is 100% correct.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2017, 03:24:58 pm »

Romance? You mean the kiss on the forehead he got...



What were you expecting?  ???

Somethin' like that encounter between Marcus & Jackie in that New Orleans hotel from 'Boomerang'?   :)




...after he got KTFO by Ren?



Y'mean th' guy who commands an entire galactic military and experienced force user who wields a deadly light saber?

Is that the one you're talkin' about?




...Or the fact he got friendzoned while in said coma?


At least she's waiting for him until he recovers.

That says something, yes?  :)



Im not getting at anything.



Here's where we have an agreement... 





Im getting at the fact Hypes definition for Finn is 100% correct.




...and here's where we agree to disagree. :-\

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2017, 05:52:02 pm »
Yeah, i bet that stormtroooer that whooped his ass was awesome too right?



Enjoy 7th (rey, luke, kylo, snoke, leia, poe) at best most important person in the movie :) hope hes everything u want :)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 05:54:26 pm by MindofShadow »

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2017, 07:15:46 pm »

Yeah, i bet that stormtroooer that whooped his ass was awesome too right?


I don't even know what this comment means. :-\








Enjoy 7th (rey, luke, kylo, snoke, leia, poe) at best most important person in the movie :) hope hes everything u want :)




Try to remember that Finn's defection & ability to improvise a daring heroic rescue and escape enabled The Resistance to have a tactical edge against this new galactic Empire.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2017, 02:34:58 pm »
Battle,

Finn didn't defect, he deserted. That's a difference. He didn't join the Resistance, he just ran away from the First Order.


Mind of Shadow,

I totally get what you and Hype are saying and I've said similar things. Finn got whooped by the nameless Stormtrooper who some fans started calling T8TR during the scene where the First Order and Resistance were fighting and Rey was captured.

Finn was a reluctant hero. Even the Entertainment Weekly article calls him that. Now in the past some have argued that that was a good thing, that Han was also reluctant. Which is true, but Han eventually turned around and grew from being selfish to being part of something bigger than himself. It is likely that Finn will have a similar arc though it appears like they are stretching that out, and that's to Finn's detriment.

Finn didn't rescue Rey. The film made sure to show that Rey rescued herself. Finn did help out, though he needed help taking down Phasma-though he did identify her as being someone to take down-and Finn played a role during the destruction of Starkiller Base though after admitting he was a janitor and didn't known much about the workings of the base. He didn't get any clear wins like Luke or Han did in Episode IV and he didn't even get an accidental win like Anakin did in Episode I.

They couldn't let Finn have a clean win. And Luke was naive and idealistic but no where near as awkward as Finn or even in the friend zone like Finn. Leia did kiss him-twice I believe-though once was to spite Han. That's more than the chaste forehead kiss the comatose Finn got after he risked his life to 'save' Rey. That was like her kissing a favorite pet. The feminist and white agenda in effect in the Force Awakens made sure that Finn would not save Rey and that her knocking his hand away or escaping from Kylo Ren on her own were touted as girl power, which they were, but noticeably at the expense of a black male character.

Finn did fight Ren, for Rey. If Rey's life wouldn't have been in danger Finn wouldn't have been around. And to his credit, he did last a little while against Ren. Though that might have been because Ren was injured or toying with Finn.

What I'm guessing is that the new character Rose will be a love interest or something close to that for Finn to keep his black paws off pristine lily white Rey.

I think some black folks are blinded by the fact that a black face is in this new Star Wars triumvirate without considering what kind of character Finn is portraying. Simply having representation is not enough. If this was the '60s, fine, but it's the 21st century, and the idea that we should accept, ignore, or make excuses for problematic portrayals of black characters, even in the franchises we love (and I do love Star Wars) is worrisome. But I think too many of us are just happy to see somebody black on screen and we don't expect anything more than that.

To me, Finn was a colossal fail, even worse than Jar Jar Binks. At least with Binks, he was a CGI creation and he was countered by Samuel L. Jackson's Mace Windu. So far there isn't any other black character in this new Star Wars. There was one black female in Force Awakens, Korr Sella, who had no dialogue before the planet she was on was destroyed. In the canon she was Leia's assistant. In the novels set between Episodes VI and VII there is at least one other important black character, Rae Sloane, but so far she has not debuted in live-action.

Also, the b.s. future or end result of the Han and Leia relationship foisted on us by The Force Awakens erases, but can't completely, the tons of now non-canon material that did explore their relationship. Their marriage was an important part of the canon before the Disney buy out. Also, I'm guessing that the canon Marvel comics is building or will build on that relationship. It is very doubtful we will see anything similar to Finn with Rose (and definitely not Rey). Even with TFA we saw glimpses that Han and Leia still cared for each other even if they couldn't live together anymore.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Korr_Sella
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rae_Sloane
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 02:42:47 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2017, 06:44:31 pm »
Battle,

Finn didn't defect, he deserted. That's a difference. He didn't join the Resistance, he just ran away from the First Order.







Ummmmmm-m-m-m...



No.

If Finn had deserted the First Order, he wouldn't need to leave his unit. He could just commit infractions by disobeying a direct order (which he did) and be re-conditioned for correction which is what his first officer had planned to do but before that could happen, Finn put his plan in motion.

What made Finn's actions a defection is that he willingly joined The Resistance and shared military secrets with them, transitioning his methods into a espionage and subversion mission.

That's why members of the The First Order shouted, "Traitor!!!" at first sight of him in pursuit.

Citing another example in the Star Wars Extended Universe, one of the earliest characters of two to defect from the Galactic Empire came from the 'Dark Forces' series, an officer named Kyle Katarn who became a mercenary for the Rebels working directly for Mon Mothma without actually joining them. I forget who the other officer was but I do remember he was a character from 'Return Of The Jedi'. 

Anyway, the point is that defections were quite common in the Star Wars universe, not desertions.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2017, 09:40:10 am »
Here is the definition of desertion from Wikipedia:

In military terminology, desertion is the abandonment of a duty or post without permission (a pass, liberty or leave) and is done with the intention of not returning. In contrast, unauthorized absence (UA) or absence without leave (US: AWOL; Commonwealth: AWL) refers to a temporary absence.
Contents


Finn deserted the First Order. He only assisted Poe to get away from the First Order and he was adamant about getting as far away from them as possible up until Rey was captured by them. That's when he joined forces with the Resistance. He did not join the Resistance. He didn't, as of TFA, make that commitment. The Kyle Katarn example is a good illustration of how a person can work with the rebels yet not be a member of the Rebel Alliance.

Finn's actions were driven by his infatuation for Rey, not by any moral cause or identification with the Resistance. And to be fair, the film didn't do much to really explain if the Resistance was actually good or not. From what little I understand, the Resistance is unsanctioned by the New Republic, but was receiving tacit support from the New Republic so it makes their status a little murky to me. I just accept them as good because Leia is one of their leaders and the new heroes are working with them, but the organization, goals, and history of the Resistance haven't been laid out enough on film for me to make a conclusive judgment about that.

Granted, the First Order was painted as the obvious bad guys, but that doesn't necessarily mean the Resistance is 'good' either. The politics of the original trilogy were more black and white IMO. Lucas brought more political complexity in the prequels and I'm still waiting to see how things will shake out with this new trilogy of films. Also Rogue One juxtaposed the more 'noble' Rebellion of Mon Mothma, etc. versus Saw Gerrera's extremist Partisans, adding more complexity to the overall rebellion as well, which also muddies who and what the Resistance could be about for me.

Finn being called a traitor just means that he deserted the First Order and was seen in the company of rebels so that would make sense that he would be considered a traitor. He was a traitor to the First Order. The scant information coming out about The Last Jedi says Finn is reluctant and he still wants to leave, but now it appears he's caught up in a web of expectations that he can't break away from. And that's another sign of his weakness as a character. Outside of his initial noble and brave refusal to commit an atrocity and helping Poe, his character has been chipped away at, until he became a puppy dog for Rey, his thing for her even overriding his justifiable fear of the First Order. Finn's not driving things, he's not making decisions. Han, Leia, Luke all made decisions from a driver's seat perspective. Sure there might have also been the pull of destiny or the Force for Luke in particular, but he remained a dynamic figure in the original trilogy. Finn's spark of defiance and testosterone was extinguished at the end of TFA and it remains to be seen if it can be revived in the future films.

As it stands, what kid would want to be Finn on the playground? What is Finn good at? He's not the best soldier, not a pilot, doesn't have the Force. He's not the smartest person in the room. He might have leadership skills but those have yet to emerge on screen. He's a superfluous character who some folks are supporting so hard because of their desire for representation at just about any cost, IMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertion

Also, desertion isn't unprecedented in Star Wars stories.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cut_Lawquane

I checked out Finn's page on Wookieepedia and here's what it says, basically that Finn deserted the First Order and joined the Resistance:


    "I'm not Resistance. I'm not a hero. I'm a stormtrooper. Like all of them, I was taken from a family I'll never know. And raised to do one thing. But my first battle, I made a choice. I wasn't gonna kill for them. So I ran. Right into you. And you looked at me like no one ever had. I was ashamed of what I was. But I'm done with the First Order. I'm never going back."
    ―Finn, to Rey[src]


Finn was a human male who served as a First Order stormtrooper, designation FN-2187 and known to his fellow soldiers as Eight-Seven. He was considered one of the group's best stormtroopers before he deserted to join the Resistance in their struggle against the First Order.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Finn
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 10:00:30 am by Emperorjones »

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2017, 09:57:44 am »
What sucks the most is two things:

1) he was marketed as a GD force sensitive potential Jedi. If this never would have hapepned, hionestly, I don't think I would care as much as I do about this. Its just so irritating.

2) his "background" in the novels, he was an elite, if not the best, stormtrooper ever. His skills were off the charts. None of that carried over to the movie.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2017, 10:06:21 am »
What sucks the most is two things:

1) he was marketed as a GD force sensitive potential Jedi. If this never would have hapepned, hionestly, I don't think I would care as much as I do about this. Its just so irritating.

2) his "background" in the novels, he was an elite, if not the best, stormtrooper ever. His skills were off the charts. None of that carried over to the movie.

I think the idea of Finn as either a Stormtrooper or a Jedi really set off some trolls on the internet, but once they saw what Finn turned out to be you don't hear any complaints from them anymore. Despite Finn having that lightsaber in the trailer and on posters, I never really thought of him as being a Jedi. So it wasn't a shock to me that Rey was the Jedi.

I was disappointed that Finn at least couldn't be a badass Stormtrooper. That he's stumbling, bumbling, sweaty, and white girl crazy. And the kicker was that he was a janitor to boot. They couldn't let him own one real cool thing in the film. Finn was like a checklist of black stereotypes and it was hard to believe that they were actually doing this in a Star Wars film so openly today, especially with J.J Abrams in the directing chair. It was like they had learned nothing from Jar Jar Binks and went even harder with Finn, not hiding the racism behind CGI this time. And this time, for the most part, black fandom embraced Finn. They identified with Finn perhaps on some level and ignored, downplayed, or rejected the racism embodied in the character. The desire for validation, for inclusion was so strong they didn't care how degrading it was. And that's where I think we are in this social media age as a people.

It's odd that the books would build him up and the film not use any of it, though that's not without precedent (i.e. General Grievous). Grievous was really puffed up in the pre-Episode III materials and then had a lackluster showing in the film itself.

I have to wonder if they made Finn so lame to definitely make him non-relationship material for Rey. I mean if he was confident and cool and at least capable, how could Rey not like him? The two actors had chemistry. They worked well together, but handicapping him the way the film did made him less of a romantic potential partner and just a very loyal friend. It even made his sacrifice to save her at the end less noble and more pathetic, like he was simping.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 10:12:07 am by Emperorjones »

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2017, 10:18:39 am »
yep... elite storm trooper, best of his kind...

to janitor.

The stuff of legends right htere

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2017, 01:10:58 pm »
What sucks the most is two things:

1) he was marketed as a GD force sensitive potential Jedi. If this never would have hapepned, hionestly, I don't think I would care as much as I do about this. Its just so irritating.





I'm going to recommend a song for you so that you don't fall for 'Jedi mind tricks' ever again.


Public Enemy - "Don't Believe The Hype"



2) his "background" in the novels, he was an elite, if not the best, stormtrooper ever. His skills were off the charts. None of that carried over to the movie.





I keep sayin'...

You were watching a completely different movie. :)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 07:05:05 am by Battle »