Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

[Battle]

>>> emperorjones





Crix Madine.

That was the name of the other officer in the 'Dark forces' series featured in 'Return Of The Jedi' who defected from the Imperial Army.

[MindofShadow]

What sucks the most is two things:

1) he was marketed as a GD force sensitive potential Jedi. If this never would have hapepned, hionestly, I don't think I would care as much as I do about this. Its just so irritating.

I'm going to recommend a song for you so that you don't fall for 'Jedi mind tricks' ever again.


Public Enemy - "Don't Believe The Hype"

2) his "background" in the novels, he was an elite, if not the best, stormtrooper ever. His skills were off the charts. None of that carried over to the movie.

I keep sayin'...

You're were watching a completely different movie.

Name one thing that he did that showed he was "elite" at anything?

Hell... HE GOT BEAT BY ANOTHER STORM TROOPER ONE ON ONE!


I head he was an elite mopper though. And he made those Stark Killer windows shine

[Battle]

Name one thing that he did that showed he was "elite" at anything?

Hell... HE GOT BEAT BY ANOTHER STORM TROOPER ONE ON ONE!


I head he was an elite mopper though. And he made those Stark Killer windows shine

In 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens', Han gets poked to death, Kylo Ren gets beaten by a girl and Finn gets the kiss from the girl without even trying. 

[Emperorjones]

Battle,

Bodhi Rook from Rogue One was also an Imperial defector.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bodhi_Rook

And Kallus from Rebels.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alexsandr_Kallus

As for the discrepancies between the novel Finn and the movie Finn that's a problem because under Disney all of the books and comics are supposed to be canon. The CGI Clone Wars cartoon and Rebels are also canon. Under Lucas the canonicity (sp) of the novels, comics, and many of the animated shows was sketchy. I've read that Lucas considered the expanded universe of his time as more like an alternate universe; yet he would bring in ideas from the EU when he wanted and leave others alone. He also invested the Clone Wars cartoon creators with the authority to change stuff that came from books as well. I think most fans just accepted the EU as 'canon' unless it was completely contradicted or overturned by something in live-action. I do think the novel writers for example did try to connect everything.

But once Disney took over they established clearly that the new stuff under them was all canonical. Eventually that will get too unwieldy and they will probably change that, but right now, the novels should be canon. So I do get why MOS felt cheated or disappointed at the movie portrayal of Finn. Unlike the discrepancy with Grievous where the canon of the novels and cartoons was nebulous, it was supposed to be seamless with Finn.

So somewhere along the way there was a change with how someone felt Finn perhaps should be portrayed in the film. I know early in the process the character that became Finn was conceived as white. I wonder once they decided on having a black actor playing him did they also change the character more to fit the white idea of what a 'black hero' should be? And was that changed even further from the novel to the film?

Did the film come out before the novel or vice versa?  I wonder how much access to the script that the author had if the book came out before the movie or was written before the movie. Maybe the writer was working off an older script, and Finn's character changed in later rewrites.

[Emperorjones]

Name one thing that he did that showed he was "elite" at anything?

Hell... HE GOT BEAT BY ANOTHER STORM TROOPER ONE ON ONE!


I head he was an elite mopper though. And he made those Stark Killer windows shine

In 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens', Han gets poked to death, Kylo Ren gets beaten by a girl and Finn gets the kiss from the girl without even trying. 

Finn literally busted his ass to get that kiss and he got was a forehead smooch when he was unconscious. He won't even remember that. Han got a big death scene after being a hero in three other movies and also a hero in The Force Awakens. Ren stopped a blaster bolt mid-air, and we never even saw Vader or Palpatine do that. Ren was poorly handled IMO but that at least showed the potential the character has.

[Battle]

...Ren stopped a blaster bolt mid-air...

...but he couldn't stop Finn from relaying to The Resistance information that caused the destruction of the First Order's super weapon.

No one could. 


If anyone was 'the reluctant hero', Han gets that credit in 'A New Hope'.


What Hollywood movie you've seen where the guy doesn't have to work hard to get the girl?
In 'Star wars: The Empire Strikes Back', Luke Skywalker gets not one but two kisses from the Princess and he lost his right hand in a light saber duel, nearly froze to death on Planet Hoth, got a thorough Jedi training workout by Yoda and jumps to his death in Cloud City.

Hudlin Brothers from 'Boomerang': "Gotta get that gold if you wanna get that girl!"

[MindofShadow]

Ok got it, coukdnt think of anything, that's fine.  Just say so homey. 

Han at least got a feat before dying heroically

And ren had multiple along with a back story that implies hes not someone ti trifke with. But hes a bad guy.. of coyrse he ended uo losing.

Phasma and finn had pre movie hype and were both chumps

[Battle]

 
Han at least got a feat before dying heroically

What feat?

'Dying heroically'? 
 He's a bad father.  He went out like a sucka.

And ren ...

Got beat by both Finn & Rey.


The End.

[KIP LEWIS]

Even though I like the characters, there is reason why Rey is, in attempting to show girl power, a Mary Sue; Flynn while trying to be cast in the Han Solo model doesn't quite make it...attempts at humor (he's a janitor, rather than a sentry) diminish the character.  Poe is a cypher--most of his greatest aspects are assumed, spoken about, but not seen. Han is a plot device (also with attempts at humor sacrificing the character), Chewbecca is wallpaper.  Rylo Ken is more whiny teenager than dark villain!

The show banks on nostalgia and hope, to make us see more in the characters and story than there really is. 

In first viewing Rogue One was better.

[Emperorjones]

...Ren stopped a blaster bolt mid-air...

...but he couldn't stop Finn from relaying to The Resistance information that caused the destruction of the First Order's super weapon.

No one could. 


If anyone was 'the reluctant hero', Han gets that credit in 'A New Hope'.


What Hollywood movie you've seen where the guy doesn't have to work hard to get the girl?
In 'Star wars: The Empire Strikes Back', Luke Skywalker gets not one but two kisses from the Princess and he lost his right hand in a light saber duel, nearly froze to death on Planet Hoth, got a thorough Jedi training workout by Yoda and jumps to his death in Cloud City.

Hudlin Brothers from 'Boomerang': "Gotta get that gold if you wanna get that girl!"

To your question about Hollywood films, I immediately thought about James Bond. Does he have to work hard ever to get the girl? And there are countless white heroes in cinema that get women effortlessly. And for black heroes, I got to reach back to Shaft, but I'm sure there are others if I thought about it.

Han was a reluctant hero who made a decisive turn to help Luke out in A New Hope, his move being key to the destruction of the Death Star. He wasn't in a coma by the end of the film. He was being lauded as a hero of the Rebellion.

Ren couldn't stop a lot of things in that movie. After he stopped that bolt, showing his power, the film then went to lengths showing how inexperienced and poorly trained he was. So he was inconsistently portrayed and whiny to boot. At the end of the film Snoke even said he had complete his training.

I think you're overestimating Finn's importance. He was a janitor who bluffed that he knew more than he did. And he got by due to luck, chance, and perhaps the ways of the Force. He was no Galen Erso. It would've been great if Finn had been an engineer working on Starkiller Base who did defect, but that's not what we got. We got a janitor who for some reason was put on this mission to Jakku. He balked, a spasm of conscience there, at committing a massacre, and then wanted out at all cost, and it was that fear that drove a lot of his actions going forward. And that doesn't mean there wasn't some decency with the character. He didn't want to be part of the First Order, but he also didn't think they could be defeated and wasn't even trying to do so. He just wanted to run from them. I don't understand why that's so hard to see. Finn basically says that in the film. It's like there is this desire to make Finn this straight up hero that he wasn't. He was an accidental or incidental hero at best. And he was reluctant, as the article says.

Finn did not beat Ren. How is winding up in a coma a victory? Finn held his own for a little while against Ren, to be fair, but perhaps that was just a good slave defending his mistress. But at the end of that fight Finn was on the ground and unconscious. Rey defeated Ren. Once again, that's clearly in the film but it's like a willful desire not to see that.

[Emperorjones]

Even though I like the characters, there is reason why Rey is, in attempting to show girl power, a Mary Sue; Flynn while trying to be cast in the Han Solo model doesn't quite make it...attempts at humor (he's a janitor, rather than a sentry) diminish the character.  Poe is a cypher--most of his greatest aspects are assumed, spoken about, but not seen. Han is a plot device (also with attempts at humor sacrificing the character), Chewbecca is wallpaper.  Rylo Ken is more whiny teenager than dark villain!

The show banks on nostalgia and hope, to make us see more in the characters and story than there really is. 

In first viewing Rogue One was better.

I agree a lot with what you say here Kip. I liked Rogue One a lot better too, however I think Rogue One could've done a better job of fleshing out the characters more than it did. I wish we had seen more of Cassian's backstory and the history between Saw and Jynn. I also wish the blind mystic had been a Jedi.

But as to TFA, yeah, I mean the movie banked heavily on nostalgia and the idea that the prequels were so bad-which in hindsight they weren't-that TFA was this great return to Star Wars. All it was was a warmed over Episode IV, with less interesting characters, and watered down villains. It was like the Resistance and First Order were just pale imitations of the Rebellion and Empire.

And I really didn't like how TFA crapped over the original trilogy characters making them essentially failures. Luke runs away. Han runs away. Leia has become this hardened general. R2D2 was deactivated for years it seems. Han wouldn't have found the Falcon in all that time? Come on.

I also think that Rey was a Mary Sue. And it was about girl power. But in this climate you aren't supposed to say that, but it's true. I like Daisy Ridley but I thought Rey was too powerful, too quickly, and stuff came too easily to her. In Episode I, Anakin had lost pod races before he finally won the crucial one. And in that movie he destroyed the Trade Federation command ship by accident essentially. In Episode II he gets his arm cut off and in Episode III he takes that lava bath, and he's supposed to be Lucas's Chosen One. Heck, the only straight victory Vader had in the entire saga was Episode V, and even then, he fails to collect Luke so he can turn him to the dark side. And when you look at Luke, he destroyed the Death Star with assistance from Han and Obi-Wan, got beaten decisively by Vader in the next film, and only beats Vader in Episode VI because Vader doesn't really want to fight him (IMO), and he's fried by the Emperor (albeit he wasn't trying to fight the Emperor), and we see in Episode VII that he ran away.

Yet Rey, in her first film, has already defeated the Jedi mind trick, had learned how to pilot the Millennium Falcon, defeated the top enforcer of the First Order, and this is all before she begins her training with Luke. They are going to have to power Ren up something fierce for him to be seen as a legitimate threat to her and I think they made him so whiny and weak in the first movie that it's going to be hard to pull off. I hate that they took Maul off the table because this new round of films needs someone that exudes menace and is a credible threat to the heroes and right now it's not Ren. The second movie in the trilogy is where the main hero loses a limb but I can't see them doing that with Rey. I think girl power and reluctance to show violence against women will make them skittish about that. So if she doesn't lose a limb she might have to lose another friend to give her some kind of loss. Finn, here's hoping they keep you away from Rey this next film because it might be him on the menu.

If they want to keep with the girl power theme just create a female Sith, Dark Jedi, or Imperial character instead of Ren. They've got plenty of examples to draw from.

Some I think they should look at are:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aurra_Sing
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Seventh_Sister
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Asajj_Ventress
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lumiya
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vestara_Khai
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Talon
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Maladi
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Barriss_Offee
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Maris_Brood
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sev'rance_Tann
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ysanne_Isard
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Natasi_Daala

[MindofShadow]

TFA was lazy as f*ck.

The only reason it has any substance and is still talked about is all the "mystery" aka sh*t they didnt bother explaining.

I thought rogue one was boring but the movie had balls as least.

I think clone wars, rebels, and the comics are the best thing to come out of star wars imo.

[Hypestyle]

so who were finn's parents? how are stormtroopers bred?  do you just volunteer?  are they hijacked at a young age and indoctrinated?

has this been explored in the novels anywhere? the comics?

[Battle]

Han was a reluctant hero who made a decisive turn to help Luke out in A New Hope, his move being key to the destruction of the Death Star. He wasn't in a coma by the end of the film. He was being lauded as a hero of the Rebellion.

Hmmm...
Looks kinda familiar but I'm not exactly sure why...

Ren couldn't stop a lot of things in that movie. After he stopped that bolt, showing his power, the film then went to lengths showing how inexperienced and poorly trained he was. So he was inconsistently portrayed and whiny to boot.

Yep.
Very familiar...

Finn did not beat Ren. How is winding up in a coma a victory? Finn held his own for a little while against Ren, to be fair, but perhaps that was just a good slave defending his mistress. But at the end of that fight Finn was on the ground and unconscious. Rey defeated Ren. Once again, that's clearly in the film but it's like a willful desire not to see that.

James 1:12

"Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him."

[Emperorjones]

Wow,

You went Biblical on me huh? So, is Finn supposed to be Luke or Han, or some even more awesome combination of both?

Finn worked the Falcon's guns, as did Luke, so what? Luke arguably did as good or better with the Falcon's guns with zero experience compared to Finn. And Han's being trapped in carbonite (sp) was a key moment in the saga, a major cliffhanger. Finn's coma is not that. Finn was taken down, or put to the side, to give Rey time to shine. Han's entrapment came after more heroic moments and a clear burgeoning romance with Leia, so we felt for him and his predicament and for his friends' loss.

I think Lucas said that poetry sometimes rhymes so if I really wanted to dig around I could come up with various homages throughout the franchise to previous films. And with TFA basically ripping off Episode IV it's not that big of a deal that there might be scenes that allude to other films or characters. Neither Luke or Han were made out to be jokes and neither was shown to be as poor as handling themselves as Finn was.

I know you're trying your hardest to ignore how lame Finn was, but it's just not going to work. And that's nothing against Boyega. His likability was one of the few strong points the Finn character had. It's just how he was written and conceived and depicted that I have a problem with.