Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)  (Read 59544 times)

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2017, 07:06:48 am »
^
The Star Wars films, and some of the additional material, are a bit more complicated than that. At a basic level the Jedi are good and the Sith are evil, but we've seen the Jedi go along with a corrupt Republic in the prequels, defend law instead of justice (as when Qui Gonn refuses to free both Shmi and Anakin in The Phantom Menace) and sign on to lead the Clone Army (after Mace earlier declares in Attack of the Clones 'we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers'). The Jedi seem to have no problems with the idea of cloning or cloning massive numbers of people to be used as soldiers (slaves) either. And when Anakin reveals the truth about Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, Mace leads a group of Jedi Masters to remove him from power and though Mace does say he will let the Senate decide Palpatine's fate, he has six lightsabers on the man and the threat of assassination is clear. So basically the Jedi did attempt a coup. And from what we've seen that many in the Republic/Empire so readily accepted that the Jedi could attempt a coup is a sign to me of how ambivalent many people must have felt about the Jedi (it also didn't help that Dooku, an ex-Jedi, was leading the Separatists too).


If I were Mace, I would've done the same thing!  ;D
The Jedi's worst adversary is in charge of a galactic military, who started a war that spun out of control, inside the Capital of the Senate.  Sounds familiar?  It should.  :)
 
Mace made a unfortunate miscalculation; apparently, six Jedi just wasn't enough to contain Palpatine considering he was the only one standing after the ambush.



In later (now non-canon) books the Jedi also did participate in a coup of the Galactic Alliance.

And we have seen the Jedi run away, in both Revenge of the Sith, the original films, and now with the new round of films. We've also seen how the Jedi disconnect from the people they are supposed to be protecting. How they take babies away from their parents, how they are cloistered in their nice little tower, how they forgo attachment. And even the idea of accountability. The Jedi are accountable to very few, and that itself could lead to abuse of power. The films didn't show really show that (the novels and comics I think did more so, with the use of the Dark Jedi), but the potential was and is there.



However, the Jedi's other purpose in life is not just to assist others in time of need but to help young initiates understand and properly wield those special powers. This was seen in 'Attack Of The Clones' where Yoda is training a group of children in the same manner that Obiwan did with Luke in 'A New Hope' inside Lando's Millennium Falcon. 

As anyone can see, the Sith prey upon impressionable force users who were disenchanted by Jedi ideology making them excellent pawns ready to convert them over to the Dark side of the force. The Sith don't seem concerned about their physical fitness either as long as they can carry out their tasks.

If the Jedi were not present, this conflict would've started sooner.

A millennia of peace is not bad compared to a country such as America who has only enjoyed  15 years of actual peace time since the signing of the Declaration of Independence.  :(



Unfortunately that book series didn't stay true to that and turned Jacen into a cackling madman, but I thought the idea was very cool, a Sith that wasn't a megalomaniac, but a person who was using Sith principles in an attempt to bring order to the galaxy.



Yeah, but... :-\


A cackling madman, a Sith who wasn't a megalomaniac, but a person who was using Sith principles in an attempt to bring order to the galaxy is exactly who Palpatine was,

"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy and we shall have peace."

Palpatine wasn't obsessed with his own power, rather he was using the Chancellor's powers that was given to him, to harm others and sow chaos in the galaxy.

Sounds familiar?  It should. :)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 07:43:45 am by Battle »

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2017, 07:15:16 am »

Dark Horse's Legends already probed that with Imperial Knights, who were neither Light or Dark.  But that is no longer canon.

But the cartoon Rebels introduced a Force user who was neither Jedi or Sith.


I've read in some circles (read: theforce dot net) that the official classification of the Extended Universe is now called Legends. 

The conflicts of interests in Star Wars universe occur when it's unclear what is canon and what is not.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2017, 07:44:10 am »

Dark Horse's Legends already probed that with Imperial Knights, who were neither Light or Dark.  But that is no longer canon.

But the cartoon Rebels introduced a Force user who was neither Jedi or Sith.


I've read in some circles (read: theforce dot net) that the official classification of the Extended Universe is now called Legends. 

The conflicts of interests in Star Wars universe occur when it's unclear what is canon and what is not.

Disney actually made it very clear what is canon and what isn't

Since then, the only previously published material still considered canon are the six original trilogy/prequel trilogy films, the Star Wars: The Clone Wars television series and film, and the stand-alone Dark Horse Comics arc Star Wars: Darth Maul—Son of Dathomir; which was based on unproduced scripts from The Clone Wars TV series.[1] Most material published after April 25—such as the Star Wars Rebels TV series along with all Marvel Star Wars comic books and novels beginning with A New Dawn—is also considered part of the new canon
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 07:47:57 am by MindofShadow »

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2017, 08:14:24 am »

Dark Horse's Legends already probed that with Imperial Knights, who were neither Light or Dark.  But that is no longer canon.

But the cartoon Rebels introduced a Force user who was neither Jedi or Sith.


I've read in some circles (read: theforce dot net) that the official classification of the Extended Universe is now called Legends. 

The conflicts of interests in Star Wars universe occur when it's unclear what is canon and what is not.

Disney actually made it very clear what is canon and what isn't


Everything else before Disney came along is not canon, yes?  :-\


I ask this because having viewed 'Rogue One' for the first time this month, just noticed Gary Whitta & Jon Knoll's name on the story writing credits; Jon Knoll is one of the many software engineers of the image editing application, Adobe Photoshop and worked on 'Episode I'. Whitta was the Editor-in-Chief at PC Gamer in the mid-90s when a lot of the Star Wars video games were being produced by demand every year since then.  Whitta also wrote 'Book Of Eli', another movie inspired by a popular video game [Fallout].

It's very clear that 'Rogue One' was inspired by the Dark Forces series as the characters are merely redressed; Jan Ors went from sidekick to Kyle Katarn to lead hero, Jyn Erso.
Kyle Katarn is really Cassian Andor, the Rebel spy and the villain droid, 8T-88 is now the re-programmed Imperial droid.

With that adjustment established, renders Dark Forces as something different but similar.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2017, 08:24:02 am »


Disney actually made it very clear what is canon and what isn't

Since then, the only previously published material still considered canon are the six original trilogy/prequel trilogy films, the Star Wars: The Clone Wars television series and film, and the stand-alone Dark Horse Comics arc Star Wars: Darth Maul—Son of Dathomir; which was based on unproduced scripts from The Clone Wars TV series.[1] Most material published after April 25—such as the Star Wars Rebels TV series along with all Marvel Star Wars comic books and novels beginning with A New Dawn—is also considered part of the new canon



Ah!  O.K.   I see... :)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #80 on: September 15, 2017, 07:45:42 pm »
^
The Star Wars films, and some of the additional material, are a bit more complicated than that. At a basic level the Jedi are good and the Sith are evil, but we've seen the Jedi go along with a corrupt Republic in the prequels, defend law instead of justice (as when Qui Gonn refuses to free both Shmi and Anakin in The Phantom Menace) and sign on to lead the Clone Army (after Mace earlier declares in Attack of the Clones 'we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers'). The Jedi seem to have no problems with the idea of cloning or cloning massive numbers of people to be used as soldiers (slaves) either. And when Anakin reveals the truth about Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, Mace leads a group of Jedi Masters to remove him from power and though Mace does say he will let the Senate decide Palpatine's fate, he has six lightsabers on the man and the threat of assassination is clear. So basically the Jedi did attempt a coup. And from what we've seen that many in the Republic/Empire so readily accepted that the Jedi could attempt a coup is a sign to me of how ambivalent many people must have felt about the Jedi (it also didn't help that Dooku, an ex-Jedi, was leading the Separatists too).


If I were Mace, I would've done the same thing!  ;D
The Jedi's worst adversary is in charge of a galactic military, who started a war that spun out of control, inside the Capital of the Senate.  Sounds familiar?  It should.  :)
 
Mace made a unfortunate miscalculation; apparently, six Jedi just wasn't enough to contain Palpatine considering he was the only one standing after the ambush.

As the audience we see that Palpatine is evil and that he's up to no good, and Mace is going off Anakin's word that Palpatine is the Sith Lord and behind it all. Anakin, who Mace never trusted, and pretty much admits to that when he thanks Anakin for telling him about Palpatine. So Mace and the other Jedi Masters are going off the word of a Jedi that Mace never trusted and felt was unduly influenced by Palpatine, which is a shaky reason to go off and attempt to force a democratically elected leader from his office. Palpatine did have a right to defend himself. Being a Sith as far as I know is not a crime. However the Jedi considered a follower of the Sith way (which could be considered a religion of sorts, just like the Jedi) was worthy of death simply for being. Mace could've called together a meeting of sympathetic Senators. Padme, Bail Organa, and others were pressing for Palpatine to end the war. Mace could've went through a more legalistic process which would've forced more examination of Palpatine and perhaps curtailed his movements while he was under investigation, but Mace went off half-cocked, and he played right into Palpatine's hands.


In later (now non-canon) books the Jedi also did participate in a coup of the Galactic Alliance.

And we have seen the Jedi run away, in both Revenge of the Sith, the original films, and now with the new round of films. We've also seen how the Jedi disconnect from the people they are supposed to be protecting. How they take babies away from their parents, how they are cloistered in their nice little tower, how they forgo attachment. And even the idea of accountability. The Jedi are accountable to very few, and that itself could lead to abuse of power. The films didn't show really show that (the novels and comics I think did more so, with the use of the Dark Jedi), but the potential was and is there.



However, the Jedi's other purpose in life is not just to assist others in time of need but to help young initiates understand and properly wield those special powers. This was seen in 'Attack Of The Clones' where Yoda is training a group of children in the same manner that Obiwan did with Luke in 'A New Hope' inside Lando's Millennium Falcon. 

As anyone can see, the Sith prey upon impressionable force users who were disenchanted by Jedi ideology making them excellent pawns ready to convert them over to the Dark side of the force. The Sith don't seem concerned about their physical fitness either as long as they can carry out their tasks.

If the Jedi were not present, this conflict would've started sooner.

A millennia of peace is not bad compared to a country such as America who has only enjoyed  15 years of actual peace time since the signing of the Declaration of Independence.  :(

I understand the Jedi goal of training these children, for their own benefit and for the safety of the overall galaxy, but that being said, they are still taking children away from their families, and demanding that they adhere to a life style devoid of deep emotional attachments, which is also hypocritical because we see strong emotional attachments from the Jedi throughout the prequels and in the original trilogy as well. Not every Sith is disenchanted with the Jedi way in terms of once being Jedi and turning against them. Maul and Palpatine were never Jedi. And it's arguable that Dooku's problem was merely disenchantment with the Jedi ideology. Dooku was also concerned about the corruption in the Republic, and/or he used that real issue to hide his true intentions behind.



Unfortunately that book series didn't stay true to that and turned Jacen into a cackling madman, but I thought the idea was very cool, a Sith that wasn't a megalomaniac, but a person who was using Sith principles in an attempt to bring order to the galaxy.



Yeah, but... :-\


A cackling madman, a Sith who wasn't a megalomaniac, but a person who was using Sith principles in an attempt to bring order to the galaxy is exactly who Palpatine was,

"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy and we shall have peace."

Palpatine wasn't obsessed with his own power, rather he was using the Chancellor's powers that was given to him, to harm others and sow chaos in the galaxy.

Sounds familiar?  It should. :)

The stuff that's now non-canon disputes the idea that Palpatine was in fact a megalomaniac obsessed with his own power and I think trying to find a way to rule forever. Part of Lumiya's goal was to find someone that had great power but wouldn't succumb to the lust for power that she felt Palpatine had. But since that's no longer canon, I don't know how the current canon views Palpatine's legacy. I also got the impression that in Lumiya's mind Jacen would be a Sith Lord who would use the Sith way to bring in peace not for his own personal benefit or aggrandizement, unlike Palpatine. Jacen was supposed to be a rejoinder to Palpatine, but the writers changed their minds or just didn't know how to pull it off.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2017, 02:44:29 am »

As the audience we see that Palpatine is evil and that he's up to no good, and Mace is going off Anakin's word that Palpatine is the Sith Lord and behind it all. Anakin, who Mace never trusted, and pretty much admits to that when he thanks Anakin for telling him about Palpatine. So Mace and the other Jedi Masters are going off the word of a Jedi that Mace never trusted and felt was unduly influenced by Palpatine, which is a shaky reason to go off and attempt to force a democratically elected leader from his office. Palpatine did have a right to defend himself. Being a Sith as far as I know is not a crime. However the Jedi considered a follower of the Sith way (which could be considered a religion of sorts, just like the Jedi) was worthy of death simply for being. Mace could've called together a meeting of sympathetic Senators. Padme, Bail Organa, and others were pressing for Palpatine to end the war. Mace could've went through a more legalistic process which would've forced more examination of Palpatine and perhaps curtailed his movements while he was under investigation, but Mace went off half-cocked, and he played right into Palpatine's hands.


I don't agree that Mace Windu "...went off half-cocked and played right into Palpatine's hands", at all.
It was Anakin who was played right into Palpatine's hands.


The scenario you've just described is exactly why Mace & his Jedi unit had to move against Palpatine immediately; The 'mystery of the Sith' has finally been revealed.


It is reasonable to assume that the Jedi Council had already made the decision about how to proceed if and when they find this phantom menace, an invisible Sith that Qui-Gon & Obiwan reported back in 'Episode I'. The problem was the interference of Anakin who was faced with the choice Palpatine prompted him with:

A) "I'm the only who can save your pregnant, illegitimate wife from dying that you foresaw in your dreams"

--- or ---

B) Bring Palpatine to the Senate and face justice through a extremely lengthy (and corrupt!) criminal & impeachment process

--- or ---

C) Allow Mace to cut Palpatine down and save the entire galaxy from the 'dark times'


Anakin chose poorly on his multiple choice S.A.T.  :)





I understand the Jedi goal of training these children, for their own benefit and for the safety of the overall galaxy, but that being said, they are still taking children away from their families, and demanding that they adhere to a life style devoid of deep emotional attachments, which is also hypocritical because we see strong emotional attachments from the Jedi throughout the prequels and in the original trilogy as well. Not every Sith is disenchanted with the Jedi way in terms of once being Jedi and turning against them. Maul and Palpatine were never Jedi. And it's arguable that Dooku's problem was merely disenchantment with the Jedi ideology. Dooku was also concerned about the corruption in the Republic, and/or he used that real issue to hide his true intentions behind.


I don't agree that the Jedi would ever demand or take children away from families without the exchange being a mutual agreement and understanding of why special powers were bestowed upon them, and what their role for the rest of their lives should be.


Regarding Dooku's recruitment process, he was merely going through the motions of what Sith do; in order for them to survive, they must lie, murder and cheat.   Sounds familiar?    It should. :)





The stuff that's now non-canon disputes the idea that Palpatine was in fact a megalomaniac obsessed with his own power and I think trying to find a way to rule forever. Part of Lumiya's goal was to find someone that had great power but wouldn't succumb to the lust for power that she felt Palpatine had. But since that's no longer canon, I don't know how the current canon views Palpatine's legacy. I also got the impression that in Lumiya's mind Jacen would be a Sith Lord who would use the Sith way to bring in peace not for his own personal benefit or aggrandizement, unlike Palpatine. Jacen was supposed to be a rejoinder to Palpatine, but the writers changed their minds or just didn't know how to pull it off.



The Jedi have expressed disdain towards politicians or avoided political arenas which is where the Jedi went awry. This issue strongly suggests the underlying message that George was sending through his Star Wars universe.


I don't know anything about Lumiya, or Jacen but what I do know is that Palpatine was not a megalomaniac.   A Sith could not rule the galaxy just because he has the Force Lightning ability. Palpatine's only real power was knowledge & subterfuge.


All Palpatine did was maneuver himself into a position in the Senate to politically & legally turn the war machines of the Galactic Senate against his eternal enemies, the Jedi.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2017, 03:47:36 pm »
Mace and Palpatine:
The Jedi had a made a choice about how to handle the Sith in Episode I, they were going to continue their long war against them and take them out whenever they appeared. What is not being said here is that Palpatine was the democratically elected leader of the Republic, a government the Jedi had sworn to protect and its laws they were upholding. So to go so outside that law, to take justice into your own hands is vigilantism and against the law, and in a sense is as much of a threat as the Separatists. The Separatists were an external threat but Mace was laying precedent for an internal one.

So, if Palpatine had been killed by the Jedi, who is to say that the next time the Jedi encounter a leader they disagree with that they murder them? Would Mace and the other Jedi stand trial for murdering Palpatine? Who holds them accountable? Is everyone just supposed to take Mace’s word for it?

This is no longer canon but at one time it was: Jedi coup from Wookieepedia (Natasi Daala entry): Shortly afterward, the Jedi Council now under the leadership of acting Grand Master Saba Sebatyne, formulated a plan to launch a coup against Daala. The Council put their plan into action at the same time as Senator Treen and her allies launched their bid to remove the Chief of State.

The idea that Mace had to act ‘immediately’ makes little sense, outside of it’s a two-hour movie and they have to push the plot along. We know there was a contingent of Senators that were pushing Palpatine to finish the war and to let go of emergency powers. Why didn’t Mace talk to any of them? If anything, with General Grievous dead, it weakened Palpatine's rationale to continue the war and possibly could've made the similarly duped Separatists leaders open to negotiating a peace deal. Why not allow the democratic process to work? If one says that process is broken, corrupt, and stronger measures are needed, well, isn’t Dooku making a similar kind of argument? The system was likely imperfect but that was the system in place, the system the Jedi up to that point had allowed to fester or limp along. And it was the system the Jedi were leading millions to their deaths in defending.

Mace played right into Palpatine’s hands and his rash actions gave credence to Palpatine’s claim that the Jedi were trying to take over because they had just tried to assassinate him. Palpatine manipulated the entire Jedi Order for the most part.

Jedi younglings:
So what kind of mutual agreement do you think the Jedi could come up with that would be satisfactory to you if it was your children? This is something that Lucas glossed over, but the potential was there to explore this further. We saw what Anakin being taken from his mother-by his choice (but this is like a little kid who is making that decision and a desperate mother who wants a better life for him no matter what), did to him, how it set in motion his dark path. And even the Jedi said he was too old to be trained. In essence, he had too many memories of his past, of his mother, so that the Jedi wouldn’t be all that he ever knew or could relate too. Now when I think of that, that’s similar to the First Order’s Stormtroopers. Albeit, they are likely much more callous in gaining recruits, but they are taking children very young and training them in their ways regardless.

Jedi and Politics:
The Jedi voiced disdain for politics did not stop them from playing politics at times. Nor did it stop them from defending the Republic some might have criticized. I’m skeptical that Lucas intended for the Jedi to be more involved with politics. I could see him feeling the Jedi needed to be more in tune with life itself, not so rigid with their rules and regulations, and to allow more humanity, to learn how to balance attachments and their desire to serve the Force and the galaxy. But perhaps there is also a criticism of the Republic’s representatives and citizens who mostly allowed Palpatine to manipulate them all into tyranny.

Palpatine’s megalomania:
I take this from Wookieepedia’s non-canon section on Palpatine:

His acts as a loving politician and later a helpless victim served only to bolster his true persona, that of Sidious. The Dark Lord was a highly manipulative, Machiavellian, exploitative and seductive megalomaniac, easily bending others to his will in his quest for Sith supremacy and ultimate power.[15][165] A narcissist, Sidious identified his own essence with the very blackness of space,[178] even going so far as to declare himself the ultimate personification of the dark side.[165] Sidious also displayed traits of psychopathy, including extreme sadism and cruelty, taking considerable pleasure in the suffering and deaths of others.

This passage is how Lumiya viewed him:

Though she was once fiercely loyal to Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader, Lumiya developed a strong sense of disdain for Palpatine and viewed Vader with pity. Regarding Palpatine, she informed her future apprentice, Jacen Solo, that Palpatine/Darth Sidious was "a psychopath consumed with power," and that Vader had been "a sad man....whose one anchor to the world of the living was, yes, a galaxy-conquering madman."

Those are not in the canon sections, but at least in the past, someone was describing Palpatine as a megalomaniac.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 04:13:02 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2017, 07:39:49 am »


Mace and Palpatine:
The Jedi had a made a choice about how to handle the Sith in Episode I, they were going to continue their long war against them and take them out whenever they appeared. What is not being said here is that Palpatine was the democratically elected leader of the Republic, a government the Jedi had sworn to protect and its laws they were upholding. So to go so outside that law, to take justice into your own hands is vigilantism and against the law, and in a sense is as much of a threat as the Separatists. The Separatists were an external threat but Mace was laying precedent for an internal one.

So, if Palpatine had been killed by the Jedi, who is to say that the next time the Jedi encounter a leader they disagree with that they murder them? Would Mace and the other Jedi stand trial for murdering Palpatine? Who holds them accountable? Is everyone just supposed to take Mace’s word for it?


The idea that Mace had to act ‘immediately’ makes little sense, outside of it’s a two-hour movie and they have to push the plot along. We know there was a contingent of Senators that were pushing Palpatine to finish the war and to let go of emergency powers. Why didn’t Mace talk to any of them? If anything, with General Grievous dead, it weakened Palpatine's rationale to continue the war and possibly could've made the similarly duped Separatists leaders open to negotiating a peace deal. Why not allow the democratic process to work? If one says that process is broken, corrupt, and stronger measures are needed, well, isn’t Dooku making a similar kind of argument? The system was likely imperfect but that was the system in place, the system the Jedi up to that point had allowed to fester or limp along. And it was the system the Jedi were leading millions to their deaths in defending.


Mace played right into Palpatine’s hands and his rash actions gave credence to Palpatine’s claim that the Jedi were trying to take over because they had just tried to assassinate him. Palpatine manipulated the entire Jedi Order for the most part.



How do you think the scenario would've played out if Palpatine had complied peacefully with Mace's arrest?






Jedi younglings:
So what kind of mutual agreement do you think the Jedi could come up with that would be satisfactory to you if it was your children? This is something that Lucas glossed over, but the potential was there to explore this further. We saw what Anakin being taken from his mother-by his choice (but this is like a little kid who is making that decision and a desperate mother who wants a better life for him no matter what), did to him, how it set in motion his dark path. And even the Jedi said he was too old to be trained. In essence, he had too many memories of his past, of his mother, so that the Jedi wouldn’t be all that he ever knew or could relate too. Now when I think of that, that’s similar to the First Order’s Stormtroopers. Albeit, they are likely much more callous in gaining recruits, but they are taking children very young and training them in their ways regardless.


There are unique individuals in our real-world with Extra Sensory Perceptive abilities that are indoctrinated by special learning institutions all around the globe and usually taken in while they're very, very young.


George is not the only writer to reference this process; Stan Lee & Jack Kirby reference the same phenomena in X-Men.





Jedi and Politics:
The Jedi voiced disdain for politics did not stop them from playing politics at times. Nor did it stop them from defending the Republic some might have criticized. I’m skeptical that Lucas intended for the Jedi to be more involved with politics. I could see him feeling the Jedi needed to be more in tune with life itself, not so rigid with their rules and regulations, and to allow more humanity, to learn how to balance attachments and their desire to serve the Force and the galaxy. But perhaps there is also a criticism of the Republic’s representatives and citizens who mostly allowed Palpatine to manipulate them all into tyranny.



Try not forget how this whole conflict was set off:

Chancellor Valorium sends two Jedi Knights, much to the chagrin of the Jedi Council, to settle the matter between the Naboo & the Trade Federation.

It's clearly established that this beef is the handy work of Palpatine also known as Darth Sidious.


Granted, Chancellor Valorium is the democratically elected leader of the Republic, a government the Jedi had sworn to protect and its laws they are upholding, as you've written...


How do you think that scenario would've played out if Qui-Gon & Obiwan were allowed to meet with the Viceroy?

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2017, 08:38:28 am »
If Mace had taken Palpatine into custody Anakin likely wouldn't have turned to the dark side at that moment, thereby averting or postponing his turn to Darth Vader. And if Palpatine had gone through a court trial it is possible that it would he would be temporarily removed from power for one, open the door to a more transparent examination of how he was running the war, and potentially could've exposed him as Darth Sidious, the true mastermind behind the war. Because with the Jedi making the claim they've got to supply the proof. A court trail, even if Palpatine owns the courts, makes it harder for him to initiate Order 66 because there would be more scrutiny on him and he wouldn't have a Jedi assassination attempt as the excuse or rationale. With Palpatine also entangled in a court trial, that might have opened the door for Padme and the Loyalist Committee to press for peace with the Separatists.

I haven't forgotten how the conflict was instigated by Sidious. It is telling that Valorum used the Jedi as blunt instruments, an implied threat to force the Trade Federation to back off Naboo. Even in Episode I, the Jedi were being used as enforcers for the Republic. So despite some protestations the Jedi were generally on board with the Senate, despite how corrupt it might have been or was accused of being, for most of the prequels.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2017, 08:48:30 am »
Considering that the Sith can control minds, one can question whether Palpatine was legally elected.  He was a strategist and devil with a silver tongue, but one cannot ignore that he mentally force pushed people into voting for him.  (Plus the same risk holds true if certain individuals were responsible for his trial.)

But I think you are going to a level of analysis of the situation that the author didn't go to.  He was keeping it very basic and simple...Sith evil, Jedi good.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2017, 09:36:40 am »
Considering that the Sith can control minds, one can question whether Palpatine was legally elected.




This is a good point.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2017, 10:09:01 am »
If Mace had taken Palpatine into custody Anakin likely wouldn't have turned to the dark side at that moment, thereby averting or postponing his turn to Darth Vader. And if Palpatine had gone through a court trial it is possible that it would he would be temporarily removed from power for one, open the door to a more transparent examination of how he was running the war, and potentially could've exposed him as Darth Sidious, the true mastermind behind the war. Because with the Jedi making the claim they've got to supply the proof. A court trail, even if Palpatine owns the courts, makes it harder for him to initiate Order 66 because there would be more scrutiny on him and he wouldn't have a Jedi assassination attempt as the excuse or rationale. With Palpatine also entangled in a court trial, that might have opened the door for Padme and the Loyalist Committee to press for peace with the Separatists.

I haven't forgotten how the conflict was instigated by Sidious. It is telling that Valorum used the Jedi as blunt instruments, an implied threat to force the Trade Federation to back off Naboo. Even in Episode I, the Jedi were being used as enforcers for the Republic. So despite some protestations the Jedi were generally on board with the Senate, despite how corrupt it might have been or was accused of being, for most of the prequels.



However, you quoted Mace, "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."  earlier in this thread.

Mace's comment doesn't imply that the Jedi are galactic policemen/policewomen, or enforcers of the Republic.  Mace's comment strongly suggests that the Jedi's role in the escalating conflict as interventionists. 

Chancellor Valorium sending the Jedi as ambassadors to intervene between the Naboo & the Trade federation was more of an attempt at diplomacy, not enforcement.

Apparently, the corruption inside the Senate was so out of control that Chancellor Valorium seeking an alternative solution was needed.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2017, 10:49:14 am »
Considering that the Sith can control minds, one can question whether Palpatine was legally elected.  He was a strategist and devil with a silver tongue, but one cannot ignore that he mentally force pushed people into voting for him.  (Plus the same risk holds true if certain individuals were responsible for his trial.)

But I think you are going to a level of analysis of the situation that the author didn't go to.  He was keeping it very basic and simple...Sith evil, Jedi good.

While we have seen Kylo Ren, who is not a Sith, seek and fail to compel Rey using mental powers, what we've seen pretty much from Palpatine is his great ability to read, trick, and manipulate people. There might be some Force use involved, but I would suspect his use of the Force would've been detected by Anakin or any of the Jedi who he was also manipulating while as Chancellor or they were in his presence while he was Chancellor and the Jedi detected nothing. The non-canon stuff had the Jedi suspecting that someone around Palpatine was the Sith Lord and not him.

Only the Jedi have been shown to use Force mental powers to any success and those were limited and worked only on the weak minds. Saying that Palpatine compelled pretty much the whole Senate and Republic to follow him diminishes him as a great villain and it also lets everyone else off the hook for their role in allowing the Republic to become the Empire. I think Palpatine played on people's fears, their desires, their weaknesses, he could see inside people and he knew how to manipulate those inner weaknesses or desires to get what he wanted. We saw in The Phantom Menace how he manipulated Padme into offering a vote of no confidence and there was no hint of Force persuasion there. We also saw how Palpatine manipulated Jar Jar Binks and there was no hint of Force persuasion there either. He knew what they wanted and he simply gave them an avenue to achieve it, which also gave Palpatine what he wanted. And by the time of the Empire, both Palpatine and Vader used more brute force, not Force spells, to keep people in line.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2017, 11:14:20 am »
If Mace had taken Palpatine into custody Anakin likely wouldn't have turned to the dark side at that moment, thereby averting or postponing his turn to Darth Vader. And if Palpatine had gone through a court trial it is possible that it would he would be temporarily removed from power for one, open the door to a more transparent examination of how he was running the war, and potentially could've exposed him as Darth Sidious, the true mastermind behind the war. Because with the Jedi making the claim they've got to supply the proof. A court trail, even if Palpatine owns the courts, makes it harder for him to initiate Order 66 because there would be more scrutiny on him and he wouldn't have a Jedi assassination attempt as the excuse or rationale. With Palpatine also entangled in a court trial, that might have opened the door for Padme and the Loyalist Committee to press for peace with the Separatists.

I haven't forgotten how the conflict was instigated by Sidious. It is telling that Valorum used the Jedi as blunt instruments, an implied threat to force the Trade Federation to back off Naboo. Even in Episode I, the Jedi were being used as enforcers for the Republic. So despite some protestations the Jedi were generally on board with the Senate, despite how corrupt it might have been or was accused of being, for most of the prequels.



However, you quoted Mace, "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."  earlier in this thread.

Mace's comment doesn't imply that the Jedi are galactic policemen/policewomen, or enforcers of the Republic.  Mace's comment strongly suggests that the Jedi's role in the escalating conflict as interventionists. 

Chancellor Valorium sending the Jedi as ambassadors to intervene between the Naboo & the Trade federation was more of an attempt at diplomacy, not enforcement.

Apparently, the corruption inside the Senate was so out of control that Chancellor Valorium seeking an alternative solution was needed.

It seems like you are seeking some contradiction in my position where there is none. The use of force can be part of interventionism. I mean, there is the term military intervention. And peace keeping often does include soldiers.

military intervention
The deliberate act of a nation or a group of nations to introduce its military forces into the course of an existing controversy.


Peacekeeper
noun
1.
a person who maintains or restores peace and amity; mediator:
Mother was the peacekeeper in our family.
2.
a soldier, military force, etc., deployed to maintain or restore peace:
American marines sent abroad as peacekeepers.


Taken from Wookieepedia's canon section on the Jedi Order:

The Jedi Order was an ancient, monastic peacekeeping organization united in their observance of the Force, specifically the light side.

Thereafter, the Jedi served, strictly, as peacekeepers by maintaining law and order during a thousand years of peace under the rule of the Galactic Senate.

As keepers of the peace, the Jedi Order undertook diplomatic missions on behalf of the Galactic Senate, and pursued interplanetary criminals across the galaxy.


Also, when you click on the word peacekeeping in that description of the Jedi it leads you to the page on law enforcement:

The Jedi Order had policing authority under the Galactic Republic and could conduct criminal investigations and make arrests.[8] Some even became experienced in local criminal and policing matters.[9] However, the Jedi served the Republic as a whole as keepers of the peace and guardians of justice.[10]



These various descriptions seem pretty clear that the Jedi did serve in part as galactic policemen.

The Mace quote came after the Naboo blockade, which could either be a result of seeing how the use of the Jedi didn't work there or though I personally think it was Lucas making Mace deluded and clueless to Dooku's real intentions and also another sign of how out of touch the Jedi had become (which is evidenced later on when Mace and Yoda are discussing whether to tell the Senate that they are become less in tune with the Force). I also have to wonder if the Mace quote was put in there to muddy the position of Dooku, which wasn't a bad idea, to make his true motives ambiguous, but Lucas couldn't restrain himself from having Dooku being a Sith Lord. Further, Mace accepts the creation of the Clone Army and in the Jedi leading it, which very much makes them soldiers.

As for Valorum's actions, check how panicked the Trade Federation were at the arrival of the Jedi. They were scared of them. Would they have been as scared of a Republic Senator? At that point, the Republic had no army to enforce their laws so the Jedi were the biggest stick that Valorum had. Valorum sent the Jedi because he knew the Trade Federation would likely back down and Sidious either suspected that the Trade Federation would also punk out and also that the Jedi might sense what was really happening so he ordered them to kill the Jedi.

I think you are attempting to posit that the Senate was so corrupt that Mace had no recourse but to assassinate Palpatine and while the corruption of the Senate was mentioned in throughout the prequels, there is no strong evidence to suggest that all of its institutions had atrophied so much that Palpatine could do completely what he wanted openly. The Emperor even maintained an Imperial Senate until Episode IV when Palpatine did feel completely unstoppable to get rid of them, but until that time, he maintained the illusion of a kind of an Empire that had some democratic aspects.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 11:19:23 am by Emperorjones »