Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)  (Read 60749 times)

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #90 on: September 17, 2017, 11:22:07 am »
Considering that the Sith can control minds, one can question whether Palpatine was legally elected.  He was a strategist and devil with a silver tongue, but one cannot ignore that he mentally force pushed people into voting for him.  (Plus the same risk holds true if certain individuals were responsible for his trial.)

But I think you are going to a level of analysis of the situation that the author didn't go to.  He was keeping it very basic and simple...Sith evil, Jedi good.

While we have seen Kylo Ren, who is not a Sith, seek and fail to compel Rey using mental powers, what we've seen pretty much from Palpatine is his great ability to read, trick, and manipulate people. There might be some Force use involved, but I would suspect his use of the Force would've been detected by Anakin or any of the Jedi who he was also manipulating while as Chancellor or they were in his presence while he was Chancellor and the Jedi detected nothing. The non-canon stuff had the Jedi suspecting that someone around Palpatine was the Sith Lord and not him.

Only the Jedi have been shown to use Force mental powers to any success and those were limited and worked only on the weak minds. Saying that Palpatine compelled pretty much the whole Senate and Republic to follow him diminishes him as a great villain and it also lets everyone else off the hook for their role in allowing the Republic to become the Empire. I think Palpatine played on people's fears, their desires, their weaknesses, he could see inside people and he knew how to manipulate those inner weaknesses or desires to get what he wanted. We saw in The Phantom Menace how he manipulated Padme into offering a vote of no confidence and there was no hint of Force persuasion there. We also saw how Palpatine manipulated Jar Jar Binks and there was no hint of Force persuasion there either. He knew what they wanted and he simply gave them an avenue to achieve it, which also gave Palpatine what he wanted. And by the time of the Empire, both Palpatine and Vader used more brute force, not Force spells, to keep people in line.

I didn't mean to imply that he controlled them all via the force, but that he might have pushed certain people in certain positions to vote his way. I see Palpatine as using all means at his disposal to get his way from bribery to blackmail to silver tongue persuasion to out and out use of the force.  All of these things negate democratic process, and the means for him to subvert justice.

Also remember Yoda said that the Sith we're using the Dark side to cloud their perceptions. So they may not have been able to sense Palpatine's manipulations.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2017, 11:27:16 am »
While we have seen Kylo Ren, who is not a Sith, seek and fail to compel Rey using mental powers, what we've seen pretty much from Palpatine is his great ability to read, trick, and manipulate people. There might be some Force use involved, but I would suspect his use of the Force would've been detected by Anakin or any of the Jedi who he was also manipulating while as Chancellor or they were in his presence while he was Chancellor and the Jedi detected nothing. The non-canon stuff had the Jedi suspecting that someone around Palpatine was the Sith Lord and not him.

Only the Jedi have been shown to use Force mental powers to any success and those were limited and worked only on the weak minds. Saying that Palpatine compelled pretty much the whole Senate and Republic to follow him diminishes him as a great villain and it also lets everyone else off the hook for their role in allowing the Republic to become the Empire. I think Palpatine played on people's fears, their desires, their weaknesses, he could see inside people and he knew how to manipulate those inner weaknesses or desires to get what he wanted. We saw in The Phantom Menace how he manipulated Padme into offering a vote of no confidence and there was no hint of Force persuasion there. We also saw how Palpatine manipulated Jar Jar Binks and there was no hint of Force persuasion there either. He knew what they wanted and he simply gave them an avenue to achieve it, which also gave Palpatine what he wanted. And by the time of the Empire, both Palpatine and Vader used more brute force, not Force spells, to keep people in line.



Palpatine is never shown to use any Force mental abilities in the Star Wars films. Because of what's happening in our own real-world politics where democratic elections are rigged, Kip's comment jumped out at me.   :)

It's very rare that Sith are ever seen using Force mental abilities, but when they do, it's very apparent.


Check out this scene from Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight where Jerec is using Force mental abilities to aggressively extract information from Ron's mind (a Jedi) to find the hidden location of the Valley of the Jedi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lah4fUDlp0

When Jerec finally exclaims,

"Morgan Katarn!!!"

The audience is clued in that Jerec was successful in his psychic battle with Ron.

We (as the audience) never see Palpatine do anything like this in any of the Star Wars films so you do have a point.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2017, 12:22:25 pm »
Doesn't Palpatine have some ability to see into the future?


Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2017, 12:40:04 pm »
Doesn't Palpatine have some ability to see into the future?


Another good question!  :)


Answer:  I don't know!  ;D

There's no evidence suggesting such a thing.


It was confusing enough that there were two layers of Star Wars canon:

George Lucas canon and Extended Universe canon.


Now there's Disney canon.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2017, 01:24:08 pm »
The non-canon and canon descriptions of Palpatine's abilities on Wookieepedia says that he can foresee the future.

The non-canon abilities:

Darth Sidious was highly adept at foreseeing the future, often utilizing the power to see his plots to fruition, ensuring that all would proceed as he had envisioned.[3]

The non-canon description also says that Palpatine does have a hypnotic lull/force persuasion ability.

It was mentioned by Luke Skywalker that the Emperor's very voice had a hypnotic lull to it whenever he was outwardly projecting his dark side Force powers.

Furthermore, Sidious was a master of Force stealth, able to hide his dark nature from the Jedi Order for many years before allowing himself to be discovered. Sidious was so powerful in the dark side that he was able to cloud the Jedi's vision, making it exceedingly difficult to predict future events.[15] This allowed him to bide his time and plot his rise to power while the Jedi were unable to sense him.[196] Overall, his powers of control and persuasion had been drawn from the very blackest depths of the dark side of the Force.[177][196]

Checking the canon abilities, he also retains similar abilities:

Darth Sidious was highly adept at foreseeing the future, often utilizing the power to see his plots to fruition, ensuring that all would proceed as he had envisioned.[5] The Dark Lord also possessed knowledge of Sith magic, allowing him to utter incantations in the Balc speech, as well as knowledge of the ancient Sith tongue.[63][55] The Dark Lord was also adept in the use of Force Persuade, to the extent that he was able to take complete control of a subject's mind and force them to obey his commands.[63] He was also capable of telepathically communicating with Darth Vader over a distance of hundreds of light-years. It appeared however as though this ability may have been limited to sending and receiving relatively simple messages such as Vader requesting that a starfighter be shipped to him, as the two Sith Lords communicated through holoprojections whilst discussing more complex matters.[3] Palpatine also had a remarkably keen ability to sense the thoughts and feelings of others, including those of incredibly powerful Force adepts such as Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker.[63][5]. On a related note, he was also capable of hiding his own thoughts and feelings from even such individuals as Yoda, and managed to conceal his true dark nature from the entire Jedi Council for decades before deliberately revealing himself.[99]

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2017, 01:48:40 pm »
The non-canon and canon descriptions of Palpatine's abilities on Wookieepedia says that he can foresee the future.

The non-canon abilities:

Darth Sidious was highly adept at foreseeing the future, often utilizing the power to see his plots to fruition, ensuring that all would proceed as he had envisioned.[3]

The non-canon description also says that Palpatine does have a hypnotic lull/force persuasion ability.

It was mentioned by Luke Skywalker that the Emperor's very voice had a hypnotic lull to it whenever he was outwardly projecting his dark side Force powers.

Furthermore, Sidious was a master of Force stealth, able to hide his dark nature from the Jedi Order for many years before allowing himself to be discovered. Sidious was so powerful in the dark side that he was able to cloud the Jedi's vision, making it exceedingly difficult to predict future events.[15] This allowed him to bide his time and plot his rise to power while the Jedi were unable to sense him.[196] Overall, his powers of control and persuasion had been drawn from the very blackest depths of the dark side of the Force.[177][196]

Checking the canon abilities, he also retains similar abilities:

Darth Sidious was highly adept at foreseeing the future, often utilizing the power to see his plots to fruition, ensuring that all would proceed as he had envisioned.[5] The Dark Lord also possessed knowledge of Sith magic, allowing him to utter incantations in the Balc speech, as well as knowledge of the ancient Sith tongue.[63][55] The Dark Lord was also adept in the use of Force Persuade, to the extent that he was able to take complete control of a subject's mind and force them to obey his commands.[63] He was also capable of telepathically communicating with Darth Vader over a distance of hundreds of light-years. It appeared however as though this ability may have been limited to sending and receiving relatively simple messages such as Vader requesting that a starfighter be shipped to him, as the two Sith Lords communicated through holoprojections whilst discussing more complex matters.[3] Palpatine also had a remarkably keen ability to sense the thoughts and feelings of others, including those of incredibly powerful Force adepts such as Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker.[63][5]. On a related note, he was also capable of hiding his own thoughts and feelings from even such individuals as Yoda, and managed to conceal his true dark nature from the entire Jedi Council for decades before deliberately revealing himself.[99]



There is a point to this:

Whenever Chancellor Palpatine would be alone with someone of interest, like say, Anakin...
The tone of his voice would change dramatically,

"...the eyes and the ears of the Republic..."

When Palpatine started to physically transform into the Emperor, his voice got deeper & deeper, and creepier.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2017, 02:14:53 pm »
Re: mace coming to kill sheev

If i am rememberibg correctly, he came with multiple jedi and went to arrest him actually.

Palpatine then gave his "i am the senate" pulled his light saber, did a 1080 spin and immediately murdered everyone but mace.

I think at that point, mace was fully in the right to kill Palpatine as soon as he had the chance

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2017, 03:24:31 pm »
Re: mace coming to kill sheev

If i am rememberibg correctly, he came with multiple jedi and went to arrest him actually.

Palpatine then gave his "i am the senate" pulled his light saber, did a 1080 spin and immediately murdered everyone but mace.

I think at that point, mace was fully in the right to kill Palpatine as soon as he had the chance




Right,  exactly.

Whoever is left standing gets to testify & their version of events is believed.

It's sort of like when hearing about a lousy, corrupt police officer murders an innocent, unarmed citizen and the bullsh*t cop lies to the public, his superiors & the victim's family that he thought his life was in danger.  ???

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2017, 04:14:03 pm »
Re: mace coming to kill sheev

If i am rememberibg correctly, he came with multiple jedi and went to arrest him actually.

Palpatine then gave his "i am the senate" pulled his light saber, did a 1080 spin and immediately murdered everyone but mace.

I think at that point, mace was fully in the right to kill Palpatine as soon as he had the chance


What authority does Mace have to arrest the leader of the Republic? Mace isn't even the leader of the Jedi Council. He's essentially a powerful general who is arresting the democratically elected head of the government. Furthermore, if his intentions were completely benign, why come in with several other Jedi masters? Why draw your lightsabers first? Like Han shot first, Mace pulled first. Mace has dubious authority to arrest and drawing his lightsaber was clearly an aggressive move, an implied threat of violence if the chancellor did not accede to his demand. Palpatine could make a strong case that he was defending himself. Palpatine was not wrong that it as treason and even that there was a Jedi plot against him. Of course there's more to the story, but that is also based on we the audience knowing something about the behind-the-scenes stuff that the average person in the Republic would not know.

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« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 04:21:22 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2017, 04:42:17 pm »
Regarding canon there has long been different degrees of canon. It got to the point where some defined it using letters. Canon was a messy business even before Disney took over.

But as it stands now, there is just one canon. The Lucas canon stuff is merged with the Disney canon. All the side stuff from the Lucas era is now "Legends".

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2017, 04:50:02 pm »
Re: mace coming to kill sheev

If i am rememberibg correctly, he came with multiple jedi and went to arrest him actually.

Palpatine then gave his "i am the senate" pulled his light saber, did a 1080 spin and immediately murdered everyone but mace.

I think at that point, mace was fully in the right to kill Palpatine as soon as he had the chance

What authority does Mace have to arrest the leader of the Republic?

We would hafta see that republic constitution i suppose lol

You could think of it as the jedi being a separate branch of govt. A suprene court vs executuve.

They seem to operate rather autonomously throughout the movies

But if we go down this thread tho

A much more interesting movie may have been IF palpatine went in quietly... and he was aquited... the republic sided with him and not the jedi

And then the jedi were wiped out due to being seen as dangerous outlaws against the Republic

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2017, 04:52:03 pm »

But I think you are going to a level of analysis of the situation that the author didn't go to.  He was keeping it very basic and simple...Sith evil, Jedi good.

Yeah.. love

Just fan fun discussion

Lucas pretty much just went "red light saber bad" lol

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2017, 05:07:29 pm »
Re: mace coming to kill sheev

If i am rememberibg correctly, he came with multiple jedi and went to arrest him actually.

Palpatine then gave his "i am the senate" pulled his light saber, did a 1080 spin and immediately murdered everyone but mace.

I think at that point, mace was fully in the right to kill Palpatine as soon as he had the chance

What authority does Mace have to arrest the leader of the Republic?

We would hafta see that republic constitution i suppose lol

You could think of it as the jedi being a separate branch of govt. A suprene court vs executuve.

They seem to operate rather autonomously throughout the movies

But if we go down this thread tho

A much more interesting movie may have been IF palpatine went in quietly... and he was aquited... the republic sided with him and not the jedi

And then the jedi were wiped out due to being seen as dangerous outlaws against the Republic

I haven't read enough of the books to see if the exact role and powers of the Jedi within the Republic were ever fleshed out. We don't see that in the movies. We know they are extremely powerful. Have a nice tower. Help enforce laws and mediate peace in the Republic. They also support the Republic and are hesitant (at least Qui Gonn) to operate outside of Republic jurisdiction.

I think that scenario you suggested would've been pretty neat. A twist no one would suspect. I've long thought that Lucas should've not made Dooku a Sith. Even though I did think he made for a pretty dapper Sith Lord and I liked his Sith name and his curved lightsaber. But I was intrigued by the idea that Dooku was actually right and that he was leading a rebellion against a Sith-controlled government, and that perhaps the Jedi eventually realize he is right but by that point its too late.

I also felt it made little sense for Padme to be against the creation of a Republic army outside of Lucas wanted her to be a generic liberal. If there had been a Republic army in Phantom Menace it is very doubtful the Trade Federation would've invaded Naboo. They did it because they knew they could get away with it. Heck, the Republic could send no support and the Jedi Council only sent two members. I wish that Padme had been in favor of the creation of the army, which would've explained more easily why the separatist would want to kill her, and then later on for her to realize too that her desire to save her planet and other planets just doomed all of them to the Empire.

It would've been a darker ending to the prequels but I think the prequels needed to be even darker.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2017, 05:31:11 pm »

It would've been a darker ending to the prequels but I think the prequels needed to be even darker.


Back in th' day, I've read in some interviews that Lucas wanted the prequels (particularly 'Episode I') to look like a golden age, with sunny afternoon lighting, beautiful sunsets and evenings.  For the most part, that effect was achieved.  He also wanted every other episode  after that to appear darker and darker, so that the fall of the Jedi Order would reflect that until the last light in the distant city skyline switched off like a light switch.*


What were your first impressions of Star Wars: Episode I, The Phantom Menace when you first saw it in the theaters?

Be honest! :)





*O.K. I got that imagery from 'Boomerang' but you get the picture!  ;) 

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
« Reply #104 on: September 17, 2017, 05:48:24 pm »
Only thing cool about EP1 was Maul, Qui Gon, and Obi.

Mostly Maul

Tge rest was garbage

Starting anakin as a child was a mistake