Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)  (Read 59498 times)

Offline TripleX

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #180 on: December 21, 2017, 05:35:11 pm »
I want Rey to turn dark and Kylo as a good guy. She'd make a great villain, she's more determined and powerful than him. He's had Luke and Leia as influences on his mighty Skywalker blood and been conflicted from the start.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Knights of Ren were Luke's Padawans that Kylo didn't kill. It's not like the Rule of Two is still in effect, Kylo Ren can have a squad of Sith. He'll need help challenging the burgeoning Jedi Order. If I were Hux I'd learn the ways of the Force before attempting a coup and by tradition murder my master. He's got to be sick of getting assaulted and embarrassed by Sith.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #181 on: December 22, 2017, 04:28:33 am »
I want Rey to turn dark and Kylo as a good guy. She'd make a great villain, she's more determined and powerful than him. He's had Luke and Leia as influences on his mighty Skywalker blood and been conflicted from the start.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Knights of Ren were Luke's Padawans that Kylo didn't kill. It's not like the Rule of Two is still in effect, Kylo Ren can have a squad of Sith. He'll need help challenging the burgeoning Jedi Order. If I were Hux I'd learn the ways of the Force before attempting a coup and by tradition murder my master. He's got to be sick of getting assaulted and embarrassed by Sith.

I was so hoping in TLJ that Rey would join Ren. Or have Rey go dark while Ren returned to the light. That would have been really bold and would've helped me forgive some of my other issues with the film. But I can't see Disney really having Rey go dark. I think they are afraid of what message that would send and how that would impact the merchandising. That being said, they market the heck out of Vader, whose face has been on just about everything. But the idea of a Darth Rey might be too much. She's a feminist icon at this point and an inspiration for young girls (and others) and I can't see them crapping on that. They have been crapping on the older heroes to big up the newer ones, and I can't see them deconstructing Rey....just yet. But wait another 10-20 years.

It hasn't been established that the Knights of Ren are Luke's former students. That's the speculation out there, and Ren did mention he took several students with him. The 'flashback' in TFA, from what I recall, already showed them fully formed, and doesn't jibe with the flashbacks in TLJ. I've seen speculation that the image of the Knights of Ren in TFA might not have been a flashback but was a future event.

Snoke or Ren aren't Sith, and I'm assuming the Knights of Ren aren't Sith either. So yeah, the Rule of Two wouldn't apply. And though they haven't went into detail about it, I think the new canon hasn't discounted the idea that there were more Sith out there before the Rule of Two reduced their numbers. For me, the rule alone doesn't define who is Sith, though that's just for me. I like it when the EU would touch on that, and you would have the pre-Darth Bane Sith armies, or the future One Sith led by Darth Krayt. Or the Lost Tribe of Sith. There's a lot of interesting ways the Sith can be expanded. Though the sequel films thus far want to put the Sith to the side, but Snoke and Ren aren't that different in goals or even appearance than previous Sith to really separate them out and make me feel that they are a different breed of dark side Force users.

I agree that Hux should learn the ways of the Force, but I don't know what he can really do to stop Ren. In ANH Tarkin was able to boss Vader around, however, he was only able to do that because he had the Emperor's favor. Hux should be looking for weaknesses, blindspots in the Force, or even recruiting his own Force sensitives, but if Snoke poorly trained Ren who knows how much knowledge of the Sith or other dark side Force users is out there for Hux to be able to train them? On the light side, Luke had given up and it seemed that all the Jedi knowledge left was in those books that Rey took. I think TLJ missed out on showing us either Jedi or Sith holocrons for learning tools.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #182 on: December 22, 2017, 05:25:00 am »
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/psa-the-new-star-wars-trilogy-is-being-made-up-as-they-go-theres-no-marvel-master-plan-a156493

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/22/last-jedi-daily-grosses-are-swiftly-collapsing-the-worst-holds-of-all-9-star-wars-movies/#e5a46c7355c1

http://www.yahoo.com/news/does-finn-still-love-rey-182400490.html

http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/last-jedi-kelly-marie-tran-180040921.html

http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-backlash-grow/

http://www.tor.com/2017/12/21/why-canto-bight-is-vital-to-the-last-jedi/

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/12/the-last-jedis-biggest-storytelling-innovation/548609/

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-run-time-too-long-cut-canto-bight

http://www.yahoo.com/news/much-money-did-apos-last-173002347.html

http://www.indiewire.com/2015/12/hyper-tokenism-the-force-awakens-while-the-black-man-sleeps-162287/

http://www.yahoo.com/news/rian-johnson-responds-extreme-last-182326914.html

http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/22/star-wars-the-last-jedi-backlash-reaction/5/

http://io9.gizmodo.com/heres-how-fans-reacted-to-the-empire-strikes-back-in-19-1821551259

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/22/star-wars-box-office-last-jedi-is-2nd-fastest-grosser-ever-behind-force-awakens/#58104d87cf44

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/22/no-santa-isnt-going-to-suddenly-turn-the-last-jedi-into-a-box-office-miracle/#79201ea53d9b

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/23/the-audience-strikes-back-last-jedis-77-fri-to-fri-plunge-is-worst-ever-for-a-star-wars-pic/#288bff8957fa

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/23/fandom-menace-why-youre-still-ok-if-you-dislike-the-last-jedi-and-why-it-matters-to-disney/#f0d96c229be8

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/23/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-plunges-77-still-tops-300m/#7a7e4d1f3f0d

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/23/how-the-force-awakens-set-up-the-last-jedi-for-disappointment/#7bb1b51c2c6d

http://medium.com/@josvchoi/the-last-jedi-on-the-character-assassination-of-luke-skywalker-38fe0190d01a

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/19/the-last-jedi-proved-the-heros-journey-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be/#30e8c8f14311

http://screenrant.com/last-jedi-biggest-plot-holes-make-no-sense-star-wars/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/24/where-the-last-jedis-grosses-would-be-if-it-performed-like-a-normal-star-wars-movie/#5df957da7057

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/16/why-the-star-wars-movies-keep-getting-longer-and-duller/#4c707ebc54d0

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/24/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-drops-69-tops-100m-losers-club/#5eab24d6dc05

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/24/with-69-2nd-weekend-decline-last-jedi-drops-further-into-the-star-wars-cellar/#5095d93f66bc

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/25/the-last-jedis-gargantuan-151m-2nd-weekend-plunge-is-an-epic-and-hollywood-choke/#345ef57418d8

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/25/can-star-wars-recover-from-last-jedis-rave-reviews-and-huge-grosses/#76e0e7d17d2e


« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 02:02:59 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #183 on: December 26, 2017, 04:29:46 am »
Not sure of where to put this but I thought this was pretty neat:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/this-fan-film-puts-a-bit-more-action-into-the-fight-bet-1821555203

Offline Emperorjones

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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #186 on: December 26, 2017, 02:26:37 pm »
! No longer available

Offline Emperorjones

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« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 08:18:09 am by Emperorjones »

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #188 on: December 27, 2017, 05:02:25 am »
69% drop is kind of fierce. It did have some a ton of competition though so maybe not as bad as it looks at the surface.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #189 on: December 27, 2017, 05:23:32 am »
Yeah, it's not good, however I've seen dueling takes on what the box office drop means. This movie is making tons of money and will not flop, but I think it's a battle of perception right now. Will TLJ make a ton of money yet be perceived to be a 'disappointment' or 'failure' where fans are concerned? It reminds me of Star Trek Into Darkness which made more money than any Trek film (though that was based a lot on a very good international box office), yet it left fans (in the US) disenchanted and that affected Star Trek Beyond (along with a poor marketing campaign from Paramount) which underperformed at the box office. Paramount and Bad Robot, with Into Darkness, had squeezed out the excitement generated by Star Trek 2009. There's other unique extenuating circumstances with Trek (CBS's lawsuit against the fan film Axanar and its new restrictive fan film guidelines right before Beyond came out, a basically non-existent celebration of Trek's 50th anniversary on the year Beyond came out that I think also didn't generate enthusiasm among fans). Disney/Star Wars marketing is too powerful and omnipresent to ever make those mistakes IMO.

But that being said, the media narrative (does Disney tacitly approve of it?) that 'old' fans are a problem, or that the criticism of TLJ is all from alt-right bigots and sexists, or that if you don't like TLJ then it's not really for you (old fans), it's for all these supposed new fans, etc., etc., it feels a bit condescending and might turn off old fans in larger numbers. While Beyond sought to self-correct from the mistakes of Into Darkness, a lot of goodwill among old fans had been lost by that point and a good deal of the new 'fans' that liked Trek 2009 IMO turned out to just be more casual moviegoers who liked a good sci-fi/action film and not new Trek fans who were into the franchise. That is what I think is going to happen to Star Wars eventually. Because if you crap on the old characters and tell the old fans that Star Wars is not 'yours' anymore and to get over it, adapt or die, then some old fans are just going to move on and take all their money with them. And that leaves Star Wars as just another big-budget sci-fi action franchise, that might be little different than Avatar, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.

Overall, despite how sometimes the suits have mishandled Trek or upset fans, I think in universe the Trek movies and shows have mostly showed respect and deference to Kirk's crew in a way the Star Wars sequels have not. They seem to delight in casting the original heroes in a bad light-perhaps because they think its gritty, it's 'real', and that it's the best way to get 'drama', but it feels lazy to me and also pisses off people who followed those characters since childhood. Kirk and company weren't perfect (check Star Trek VI, their swan song), but they were still at heart heroic. The sequels put a lot more rocks on the backs of the original heroes (esp. Han and Luke) than they needed to.


Offline Emperorjones

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« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 05:25:03 am by Emperorjones »


Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #193 on: December 28, 2017, 05:38:21 am »
I wonder if disney's plan to attract a new audience using Rey (and lesser extent Finn) worked at all.

SW pretty much had the straight white male demographic on lockdown. Which is why casting the a white chick and a black dude (and the third being Latino? of some kind idk what Issac is lol) was kind of weird. Especially when it then systematically regressed/destroyed/changed (depending on how you look at it) Han and Luke's characters

Especially since Rey isn't exactly a "sex icon" either.

So there goal had to be the risk angering this demographic in hopes of dragging in others.

I dont "feel" like it worked with Blacks at all. I "think" Finn angered them more than brought them into star wars. And the fact Lando is MIA doesn't help either.

no idea about the Katniss crowd though

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #194 on: December 28, 2017, 08:57:20 am »
I don’t think the casting of the new Star Wars heroes was weird. Disney was looking to expand the audience for Star Wars. They saw that series like Fast and Furious, with nowhere near the pop culture dominance of Star Wars, is a billion-dollar franchise in part because of its diverse cast. And with diversity and inclusion being the watchwords in Hollywood right now, and also some vocal online advocates of diversity, it was good business to make Star Wars more diverse. I think the issue is how they went about it.

Disney/Kathleen Kennedy has been obtuse in how they’ve handled this diversity, giving ammunition to right-leaning critics who criticize diversity and multiculturalism. The new films have Rey who is awesome, just because, and if you put that out, you’re a misogynist. There's not much to the Rey character (not Daisy Ridley's fault) except that she is a female. And TLJ took away her major character issue, her search for her parents. It didn't remove her overall search for identity and she still has the mission now to save the Resistance/Rebellion, but that's not that different than from what we've seen before with Luke and far less dramatically interesting than what Luke was working with. Though it likely fits the themes of female empowerment and a woman finding her voice. How does that factor into the whole saga is anyone's guess. Because once Rey finds that voice what happens then? Her character wasn't well-conceived, just like the other new heroes. Who is Poe exactly? They made him a rash, hothead in TLJ but why is he fighting for the Resistance? Why is he so rash? And we have gotten more of Finn's motivations, but still no real backstory (even of his time in the First Order) and he's a checklist of stereotypes so much it makes his character unappealing. (To be fair, there are comics and books that provide some information on these characters, but that's a cop out to me if a movie has to rely on ancillary material to tell the story we should be seeing on screen or hearing in the dialogue.) I mean TLJ actually did a good job with Rose. We saw her sister, we got a little of her backstory, and we know why she's fighting. So it's not impossible to do these things in a Star Wars film. I think the problems stem from TFA not really having an idea of who these characters were, and were more concerned with what they were (in terms of race/ethnicity/gender) and that Abrams thought the future directors would just figure it out. Rian Johnson really didn't want to so he just started upsetting the apple cart. Where Disney lucked up is that the casting is good and Boyega in particular has chemistry with Oscar Isaacs and Daisy Ridley. Based on chemistry alone, Finn should be the center of the new sequels.

I think Disney was eager to get the headlines about how progressive and feminist Rey was and that that would inoculate them against any white male backlash. With TFA I think they were proven right, when it came to box office. The hubbub about Finn before TFA died down and was rightly made to look foolish and perhaps Disney thought they could ridicule all future critics, or that the critics would expose themselves as foolish. Little attention was paid to the criticism of the Finn character after the film came out. There didn’t appear to be much of a groundswell of that criticism (not enough I suppose to get Disney’s attention, and it’s not like Disney or the media is all that attuned to discussions about racial depictions), but it was around on the internet.

I think Disney thought that white males were a captive audience, that they had reached peak saturation with them and were looking to expand by capturing every other demographic group. While the sequel films have been noticeably more colorful, white characters, particularly white females remain at the center, so it’s not really a change in the racial hierarchy, it is a changing of the guard where gender is concerned, and some white males aren’t having that.

The Last Jedi triggered some white male backlash (but it’s not only white males who have issues with this film-on You Tube there are some black men, some white women, and at least one Asian female reviewer I watched who all had issues with TLJ). I do suspect that a lot of criticism for TLJ is from alt-right corners, but the media pushback that all of the film’s critics are from those corners is not helping the reputation of the movie nor has it silenced the people who are criticizing the film. It's likely emboldened those critics, as noted by the dropping fan score on Rotten Tomatoes. It’s painting the criticizers with a broad brush. And if it’s not the alt-right that’s the cause, it’s ‘old fans’ (which also overlaps with the alt-right charges). And these ‘old fans’ are being condescended to in the media, and online, that they have to ‘let go’ and they shouldn’t expect ‘fan service’ and so forth. I don’t think the media response has been well handled for this film. I think Hollywood needed Star Wars to be a massive hit because the industry needed it so they are pulling out all the stops to save the reputation of TLJ and attempt to dismiss the criticisms.

I don’t know what the numbers of black fans of Star Wars is. It seems like there has been a sizable number of black fans over the years-as for the diehard fans-don’t know about that number. That being said, Star Wars hasn’t been the most welcoming place for black fans if those black fans were concerned about representation. And Finn is a step backward when it comes to representation so I can see why many black folks aren’t cheering for this new round of films. At least you had veteran black actors like Billy Dee Williams and Samuel L. Jackson in the previous films, actors who had built up a reputation among the black community in the US. John Boyega, no fault of his, hasn’t done that. Perhaps Star Wars, while looking internationally, was also just expecting blacks to jump at any black person that was prominently featured in a Star Wars movie, that didn’t turn out to be the case. No fault again of Boyega’s. But when you pick a relative unknown actor, from another country, and then saddle him with a stereotype-plagued character, that doesn’t enthuse black audiences-outside of some black nerds who I suspect were just hungry for any representation in Star Wars and identified with Finn. Finn came along in some ‘woke’ times and that might not be going down well for black audiences. Plus, not having Lando in the new films, and also crapping on the original heroes likely pissed off some black fans who overlapped into the ‘old fan’ category.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 09:10:19 am by Emperorjones »