Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)  (Read 59473 times)


Offline Emperorjones

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« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 05:27:11 am by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #197 on: December 29, 2017, 09:30:16 am »
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Offline Hypestyle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #198 on: December 30, 2017, 07:40:16 am »
I finally saw the movie yesterday.  I enjoyed it.  It was a lot more intriguing than I anticipated.


So what is the backlash all about?  I'm not understanding.

Next film:  Lots more Chewbacca!
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #199 on: December 30, 2017, 09:45:18 am »
I finally saw the movie yesterday.  I enjoyed it.  It was a lot more intriguing than I anticipated.


So what is the backlash all about?  I'm not understanding.

Next film:  Lots more Chewbacca!

There are story elements that are definitely showing up on "Everything Wrong With" or HISHE, but I think the biggest is they don't like Luke's story. 

Offline Hypestyle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #200 on: December 30, 2017, 10:51:00 am »
My general reactions:  (major spoilers)
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Luke: I suppose it was kind of expected that he'd end up being a reluctant teacher to Rey.  I wanted to see a lot more teaching sequences, though, seems like there wasn't that much, compared to Luke's experiences with Ben Kenobi and Yoda.
I didn't anticipate that Luke was doing a big fakeout in the climax.  It was intriguing, for sure.  I didn't know that Jedi illusion casting was that deep; in looking back at what happened, I'm surprised that droids (Threepio) were fooled by this as well, though I suppose Luke's wink was a semi-giveaway that something else was at work.  For this to be Luke's "final" (in body) appearance, ah well.  I would have appreciated him being portrayed in the super-acrobatic way that CGI and stunts allow nowadays, but I guess it wasn't meant to be.

Leia: At last, we got to see Leia exhibit some Jedi powers besides the telepathic bond with Luke.  I was glad to see her do a lot more plot-wise, though I was shocked to see her taken out of the story early on.

Finn: This film kind of continues Finn's arc of being an amiable bumbler, to me.  I don't know if the intent is to continue to portray him as an everyman who is kind of overwhelmed by the circumstances around him, or.. something else?  Heh.  I think the exchange with Rose could have been handled in another way rather than him getting tasered, lol.  Ah, well.  With the fight against Captain Phasma, I wish that it had lasted longer and ended in a more "substantive" way for me.  The angle of him falling and landing on a floating skiff then sneak-bashing Phasma, eh.. lol.. I was wanting Finn to have a more "traditional" victory against the bad guys.  (On a side note, Phasma has kind of become Boba Fett to me, where the visual image is promoted as this big deal character but on-screen, doesn't really get to do a heck of a lot).  I get that this is supposed to mark Finn's final choice to really "join" the Rebellion, but then his near-death experience against the Empire's super-cannon stumbles into the "noble self-sacrificing black guy" trope; at least now he's at least portrayed as having made baby steps into having a relationship with a woman (of color) who is not Rey.  Hopefully the writer(s) will have a platonic bond between Finn and Rey and deepen the relationship with Rose.

Poe: I enjoyed Poe's general portrayal, I don't think you've had this kind of tension in previous films regarding the policies and agendas of members of the rebellion.  It was kind of Star Trek-ish in the past were there was a general lack of conflict. So this was a nice turn of events.

Rey: I was surprised by the depth of the cross-galactic telepathy, and how Rey was able to see landscapes and not just the "mind" of the person she's in contact with.  I'm still perplexed at what she was supposed to have seen in the cave (an update of Luke's cave wandering in Empire?).

Kylo: Whoo-boy, wow.  I'm glad he wasn't enough of a maniac to fire on his mother, but clearly he was still enough of a maniac to go through with the assaults on the rebel groups in general.  I still don't know what the Knights of Ren are supposedly all about, anyway-- there's no backstory on just how Ben was able to be sought out by Snoke and how he was gradually corrupted.  The "reveal" on his fateful confrontation with Luke was an interesting twist.  I enjoyed the fight sequence against the Crimson guards.

DJ:  I'm not sure what Benicio's thief/hacker added besides the eventual betrayal.  But I won't complain about his presence.  The way that he "conveniently" was able to escape the jail was kind of a subtle nod that everything about this guy wasn't on the up and up.

I'm still wondering where all this is going, in a way.  Emperor Snoke is dead, and so I guess Kylo has declared himself the supreme leader of the New Order.  The rebellion is reduced to whoever fits on the Falcon ship, now, so what systems can they run to?  How widespread is the New Order Empire this time around?  What would it really take to remove all their elements and restore a new republic?  Seems like this would take way more than one more movie.

Chewie:  I liked his presence in the film but I wanted to be more of it.  I wanted to see him have some extended conversations (growling aside) with Luke and hopefully Leia, about Han.  I wasn't overly interested in seeing him as the fuzzy sidekick character anymore.  I'd like the next film to have him in more of an out-front leader role.  Why not? He's already been through any number of political/war conflicts already.  What is the Wookie culture response to the New Order?

Still missing:
Lando- we need to see his take on Han's passing, as well as Luke and whatever Leia's post-Carrie Fisher fate is.  Did he become a family man? Did he become an administrator again?  Is he in exile post-New Order?

Sex:  do people still, you know, hook up, in this universe?

Religion:  Is the Jedi religion the only one out there? Is that the only path to have certain metahuman powers?  What about other belief systems and technological-biological connections that are considered a part of worship or rituals?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 10:57:20 am by Hypestyle »
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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #202 on: December 30, 2017, 11:54:48 am »
I finally saw the movie yesterday.  I enjoyed it.  It was a lot more intriguing than I anticipated.


So what is the backlash all about?  I'm not understanding.

Next film:  Lots more Chewbacca!


There are story elements that are definitely showing up on "Everything Wrong With" or HISHE, but I think the biggest is they don't like Luke's story.

I've been listening to some commentary on You Tube and reading various articles. I agree with Kip, that the main issue is how Luke is depicted and his story, with some not liking how he bows out of the franchise. There's also criticism of the Canto Bight sequence. There is criticism of Leia's flying through space. Some feel that DJ was unnecessary and that Snoke and Phasma was wasted. Some felt there was too much humor in the film. Some have issues with the Holdo/Poe relationship and question why she didn't just tell him her plan. Some people didn't like Rose or felt she was also an unnecessary character. Some don't like some of the swerves, like Rey's parents being 'nobodies'.

There are some who feel that the film was anti-male, prof-feminist. Some felt that the film was taking a swipe at capitalism or the rich (ex. Canto Bight sequence). I'm sure there's more criticisms but those are some that I've picked up on.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #203 on: December 30, 2017, 11:55:49 am »

So what is the backlash all about?  I'm not understanding.


Luke.

He was the hero of the OT and people have been waiting decades to see him at his peak

Instead we got a broken old man who momentarily decided to off his nephew and after he f*cked up he ran off to an island while his f*ck up got stronger and joined space nazis that slaughtered countless people and his friends

And when he finally decided to help,  we dont even get a proper saber fight or see how powerful he is. He displays a new power and dies

Plus the people in charge teased snokes origij then explained nothing (which is ludicrous and biggest issue with the movie imo) and teased reys lineage (whuch was nothing) for 3 years lol.

Offline Hypestyle

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #204 on: December 30, 2017, 11:59:28 am »
Add Dwayne Johnson to the franchise.

Not kidding.

Why not?  Popular, charismatic, would make a great tough-guy hero for the new adventures.
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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #205 on: December 30, 2017, 12:12:01 pm »

So what is the backlash all about?  I'm not understanding.


Luke.

He was the hero of the OT and people have been waiting decades to see him at his peak

Instead we got a broken old man who momentarily decided to off his nephew and after he f*cked up he ran off to an island while his f*ck up got stronger and joined space nazis that slaughtered countless people and his friends

And when he finally decided to help,  we dont even get a proper saber fight or see how powerful he is. He displays a new power and dies

Plus the people in charge teased snokes origij then explained nothing (which is ludicrous and biggest issue with the movie imo) and teased reys lineage (whuch was nothing) for 3 years lol.

Yes, and some of the pushback to fan disappointment over Luke is that this is a not for 'old' fans, or just for 'old fans,' which annoys me. That TLJ is a new, fresh, and bold direction for Star Wars. And that 'fan service' is boring and holds the franchise back, while subverting expectations in TLJ put the franchise on firmer footing. If you create a precedence of not giving fans what they want, why will fans continue to stick around? Some subverting was fine, but as I said before Johnson did it far too much. Further, I have to wonder if he just didn't do that so he wouldn't have to deal with where Abrams left the franchise after TFA. Some of the issues in TLJ are the result of the poor story and setup from TFA. It also rankles that the pushback is largely saying is that if you didn't like the film it's your problem, you are the problem (whether because you are a bigot, a sexist, Alt-Right, a troll, or are too old and too hung up on the EU or your expectations of how the story should go). It doesn't take enough account into whether TLJ was actually a good story, does it work as a good film, and was it true to the characters as they were presented in the original film. Those criticisms are ignored or sweep in with the likely racist-sexist, Alt-Right critiques.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 12:25:06 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #206 on: December 30, 2017, 12:21:29 pm »
Add Dwayne Johnson to the franchise.

Not kidding.

Why not?  Popular, charismatic, would make a great tough-guy hero for the new adventures.

I don't think the new Star Wars wants a tough-guy hero at least for this sequel trilogy. They've deconstructed both Han and Luke. Finn is a bumbler, as you noted, who had to be dragged along by Rose at points in TLJ (previously he had been taken down by Rey in TFA, and by Rose in TLJ), and Poe had to be checked by Admiral Holdo. Both Hux and Ren are immature man-children. Compare that to how Rey, Holdo, Rose, and Leia have been portrayed in comparison to the men. The one female character that has gotten short shrift is Phasma. I'm surprised by that. I guess Johnson didn't have her kill Finn out of fear of the racial implications. Plus a live coon character has its uses to them. Rogue One did a better balancing act between male and female characters, while still keeping Jyn Erso as the central character. Saw Gerrera was crazy and did do the 'self-sacrifice' thing, but his made less sense than Finn's.

The Rock isn't a complete Alpha in some of his films. I do think they soften his characters in ways that wouldn't have happened in the '80s, though I also think that plays to Rock's strengths. Because he does have some comedic chops and his a likable presence, I still don't think Star Wars can handle the Alpha vibe that he does possess. The Rock would easily dominate all the sequel heroes in terms of his stage presence and charisma. It would be cool if he were a badass Mandalorian warrior or something, but that would not happen in the sequel trilogy. Perhaps a side story if they ever do that rumored Boba Fett anthology film.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 12:30:24 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #207 on: December 30, 2017, 03:58:50 pm »
Alright, finally saw it a second time. wanted to see it twice before really giving detailed thoughts on things.

I will say, I can see why casuals/new fans might be loving this movie. or anyone I suppose. It was a really pretty movie, had some really great moments and music. It was extremely well made. A lot of my problems with the movie have more to do with the "semi hardcore" fan stance more than anything. I still think it is one of the better Star Wars films... but that might say more about the fact that a lot of the star wars films are kinda meh.

I think Kylo was extremely well done... it is interesting having a villain that isnt "finished" yet and watching him evolve. I thought Rey was fine-ish.. she had some really good moments although I have my issues with the character. The fight against the red guard dudes was really cool. Yoda was cool.

For the quick nick pick side before we get heavy... the porgs were stupid, chewie was wasted, r2d2 was wasted, timeline was weird (and I don't think Carrie Fischer can act at all, not to speak ill of the dead), and I wish they didn't make Hux into some kind of a mini joke at the beginning.

My 100% biggest issue with this whole movie is Snoke. Not even just the fact that Abrams, Kennedy, Rian and Co acted like hsi origin was this huge mystery we would figure out and then didnt... but f*ck he is soooooooooooo important and such a huge plot issue to this universe. and he was actually really really really freaking cool and well acted and well designed.

How in this galaxy did a dark side user THIS powerful (he may have been the strongest force user we've seen on the big screen) avoid any Jedi or Palpatine detection all these years? We know there are other dark users than the Palpatine line sith from the cartoons but yeesh... this is a whole other beast of strength. And as Luke stated, that I didn't catch the first viewing... Snoke was in Kylo's brain trying to turn him from the beginning. He felt him when he had his "imma murder my nephew" moment.

So you have a ridiculously powerful dark side user (that acts just like a Sith but apparently isn't lol? wut?) who was able to turn a Skywalker right under THE jedi masters nose... and luke knew who he was and what he was trying to do... and we know nothign about him whatsover? Its like Abrams was basically tasked with doing a remake/update of New Hope and copied it to a tee and just didn't bother to think any of this through and Rian didn't want any part of it and moved on.

I know some people are like "well you don't have to know all the backstory!" but for someone this powerful I feel you did. if you are gonna have an extended universe you gotta play by those rules.

But that kinda leads to one of my big problems with Luke. Luke knew Snoke existed. Knew what he was trying to do.... why didn't he try and go murder snoke instead of murder his nephew lol?

I just really wanted to see a bad ass Luke. In a flashback or something. Yes the force projection was a damn cool power feat but... I just wanted to see the dude cut some peopel down with a saber. Is that really too much to ask lol? I generally liked a lot of his jedi thoughts about Balance and how there is always the balance and how the jedi caused a lot of the problems (or let them happen accidentally). I don't know how you do THAT type of ending though without the force projection thing. It would have been cool for Luke to f*ck up the walker mechs with the force but then there is no way he could lose to kylo and with snoke dead he had no equal. So I guess he had to kinda die but... meh.

I do wonder if they would have killed luke off if they knew Fischer wasn't going to be around. They have no "nostalgia" left really as all the important OT characters are gone.

I thought Poe had a interesting lil arc that is likely to set him up as THE leader/commander next movie (especially with Fischer dead). He royally f*cked up multiple times this movie but by the end I think he was showing true leadership and I think that wast he point.

Rey is just... almost too much sometimes.She just doesn't have any flaws other than caring too much lol? She didn't stop going straight to the dark? I just feel like the more intersting story would have actually been a Jedi Finn.

Speaking of Finn... what a GD f'ing waste of a character and great actor. The Canto side arc was all around sh*t. IT only existed to show off teh "hey look weird goofy aliens!" part of star wars movies and to give Boyega somethign to do. The code breaker being a traitor was so damn telegraphed. Rose had a use but I don't like the pairing and the suicide save at the end was just dumb. Finn isn't force sensitive, Finn can't pilot like Poe, and he isn't a leader so... what freaking use does he have next movie? He may have been better off just dying in the suicide run. Plus, his beef was Phasma was terrible, that fight sucked and surprise surprise... no straight win for Finn. Cut out the Canto arc crap and show me more Rey/Luke training (we never saw the third lesson) and the movie would have been better for it.

Can I still hold out hope Finn is force sensitive and Rey will train him next movie? No? not at all? Not even a low level jedi type? Please :(

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #208 on: December 31, 2017, 05:20:18 am »
My general reactions:  (major spoilers)
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Luke: I suppose it was kind of expected that he'd end up being a reluctant teacher to Rey.  I wanted to see a lot more teaching sequences, though, seems like there wasn't that much, compared to Luke's experiences with Ben Kenobi and Yoda.
I didn't anticipate that Luke was doing a big fakeout in the climax.  It was intriguing, for sure.  I didn't know that Jedi illusion casting was that deep; in looking back at what happened, I'm surprised that droids (Threepio) were fooled by this as well, though I suppose Luke's wink was a semi-giveaway that something else was at work.  For this to be Luke's "final" (in body) appearance, ah well.  I would have appreciated him being portrayed in the super-acrobatic way that CGI and stunts allow nowadays, but I guess it wasn't meant to be.

Leia: At last, we got to see Leia exhibit some Jedi powers besides the telepathic bond with Luke.  I was glad to see her do a lot more plot-wise, though I was shocked to see her taken out of the story early on.

Finn: This film kind of continues Finn's arc of being an amiable bumbler, to me.  I don't know if the intent is to continue to portray him as an everyman who is kind of overwhelmed by the circumstances around him, or.. something else?  Heh.  I think the exchange with Rose could have been handled in another way rather than him getting tasered, lol.  Ah, well.  With the fight against Captain Phasma, I wish that it had lasted longer and ended in a more "substantive" way for me.  The angle of him falling and landing on a floating skiff then sneak-bashing Phasma, eh.. lol.. I was wanting Finn to have a more "traditional" victory against the bad guys.  (On a side note, Phasma has kind of become Boba Fett to me, where the visual image is promoted as this big deal character but on-screen, doesn't really get to do a heck of a lot).  I get that this is supposed to mark Finn's final choice to really "join" the Rebellion, but then his near-death experience against the Empire's super-cannon stumbles into the "noble self-sacrificing black guy" trope; at least now he's at least portrayed as having made baby steps into having a relationship with a woman (of color) who is not Rey.  Hopefully the writer(s) will have a platonic bond between Finn and Rey and deepen the relationship with Rose.

Poe: I enjoyed Poe's general portrayal, I don't think you've had this kind of tension in previous films regarding the policies and agendas of members of the rebellion.  It was kind of Star Trek-ish in the past were there was a general lack of conflict. So this was a nice turn of events.

Rey: I was surprised by the depth of the cross-galactic telepathy, and how Rey was able to see landscapes and not just the "mind" of the person she's in contact with.  I'm still perplexed at what she was supposed to have seen in the cave (an update of Luke's cave wandering in Empire?).

Kylo: Whoo-boy, wow.  I'm glad he wasn't enough of a maniac to fire on his mother, but clearly he was still enough of a maniac to go through with the assaults on the rebel groups in general.  I still don't know what the Knights of Ren are supposedly all about, anyway-- there's no backstory on just how Ben was able to be sought out by Snoke and how he was gradually corrupted.  The "reveal" on his fateful confrontation with Luke was an interesting twist.  I enjoyed the fight sequence against the Crimson guards.

DJ:  I'm not sure what Benicio's thief/hacker added besides the eventual betrayal.  But I won't complain about his presence.  The way that he "conveniently" was able to escape the jail was kind of a subtle nod that everything about this guy wasn't on the up and up.

I'm still wondering where all this is going, in a way.  Emperor Snoke is dead, and so I guess Kylo has declared himself the supreme leader of the New Order.  The rebellion is reduced to whoever fits on the Falcon ship, now, so what systems can they run to?  How widespread is the New Order Empire this time around?  What would it really take to remove all their elements and restore a new republic?  Seems like this would take way more than one more movie.

Chewie:  I liked his presence in the film but I wanted to be more of it.  I wanted to see him have some extended conversations (growling aside) with Luke and hopefully Leia, about Han.  I wasn't overly interested in seeing him as the fuzzy sidekick character anymore.  I'd like the next film to have him in more of an out-front leader role.  Why not? He's already been through any number of political/war conflicts already.  What is the Wookie culture response to the New Order?

Still missing:
Lando- we need to see his take on Han's passing, as well as Luke and whatever Leia's post-Carrie Fisher fate is.  Did he become a family man? Did he become an administrator again?  Is he in exile post-New Order?

Sex:  do people still, you know, hook up, in this universe?

Religion:  Is the Jedi religion the only one out there? Is that the only path to have certain metahuman powers?  What about other belief systems and technological-biological connections that are considered a part of worship or rituals?


I think Finn as the ‘everyman’ is a reach that many people make. The ‘everyman’ character in movies often wins despite being in way over his head (ex. John McClane in the Die Hard films; McClane usually has some ingenuity or grit or something extra (white sauce?) that helps him carry the day). We just haven’t seen that with Finn.

I’ve read speculation that what Rey found in the cave was the answer that she was what she was looking for, that she didn’t need her parents, or something along that line. And it is similar to the vision Luke saw of himself inside the Vader mask on Dagobah, just done far more poorly in TLJ.

No one knows-yet-what the Knights of Ren are about. Rian Johnson just ignored them. I got a feeling J.J. Abrams will pick that thread back up in Episode IX. The speculation is that the Knights were the students Ben took with him after destroying the Jedi Temple.  Now that I think about it, we don’t know even where the Jedi Temple was or what it even looked like. How was Ben able to destroy the whole freaking temple? Some of the issue with Ben is that there is a lot of telling when they should be showing when it comes to his power. His power has been portrayed inconsistently, though I guess that could be tied to his instability and mood swings.

I also wonder where they are going with the story going forward. I felt Johnson upped the power level and reach of the First Order for TLJ than Abrams had them in TFA. I got the impression that in TLJ that the First Order is about to conquer the galaxy. Abrams and TFA did a poor job of establishing the political situation for TFA and Johnson just bent it to fit the story he wanted to tell. Some might argue that the political situation wasn’t well explained in ANH or the original trilogy, but those films get the benefit of the doubt since they started the franchise and are not the seventh and eighth films in the franchise. Plus, Lucas did a good job of making the Empire feel large and oppressive. And he delved further into the political situation in the prequels, so I think Lucas overall did a good job of setting the contours of his Star Wars films.

Good point about Chewbacca. I would’ve loved to have seen him interact with Luke more and definitely Leia. One of my favorite scenes in TLJ was the too brief scene between Luke and R2D2, for a second the battered TLJ Luke disappeared and the original trilogy Luke returned. The sequels seem hellbent on removing the original characters to make way for the new characters. In TFA, there weren’t a lot of scenes between Han and Leia and that extended to Luke and Leia in TLJ, or the other original heroes. I’m not sure why Disney is onboard with not doing little character moments like that (it reminds a bit of how Star Trek Nemesis mishandled the little character moments that add to Trek films). It was like Johnson in TLJ was disdainful or perhaps too afraid he would mess it up so he ignored it or sped by it, like the truncated conversation between Luke and Leia in TLJ, when she makes a joke about her hair to cut off a deeper discussion. For all the ‘change’ touted in the new films, not much has been done with Chewbacca. He’s essentially the same as he was in the trilogy. Why not have him be a leader in the Resistance? He’s just as much a major hero as Luke, Leia, Han, and Lando. General Chewbacca would be cool.

I think even the original films were circumspect about sex. We know at least in the prequels Anakin and Padme got it on, but we can just imply about Han and Leia. They were so busy saving the galaxy there might not have been much time for nookie. The sequels might give us more sex since they’ve already gifted us a Kylo Ren beefcake shot (and there were no howls that Adam Driver was being objectified or the victim of the ‘female gaze’).

TFA did introduce, but didn’t really develop, the Church of the Force idea. From what I gather, these people worship the Jedi or follow the Jedi way, though I don’t think they are all Jedi. I don’t know what canon religions exists now. I believe the cartoon Clone Wars’ Nightsisters/Nightbrothers (Asajj Ventress, Maul, Savage Opress) had some religious aspects to them, but I might be wrong. I’m assuming that the EU did have other religions. In the EU the Yuuzhan Vong were religious fanatics, and had an anti-technology based religion. In the Fate of the Jedi novel series, Luke and his son Ben Skywalker (much cooler than Ben Solo) traveled to various planets where people practiced the Force differently. I wouldn’t mind perhaps seeing something like that down the road, Rey encountering people who access and use the Force differently than the Jedi.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #209 on: December 31, 2017, 06:16:32 am »
Alright, finally saw it a second time. wanted to see it twice before really giving detailed thoughts on things.

I will say, I can see why casuals/new fans might be loving this movie. or anyone I suppose. It was a really pretty movie, had some really great moments and music. It was extremely well made. A lot of my problems with the movie have more to do with the "semi hardcore" fan stance more than anything. I still think it is one of the better Star Wars films... but that might say more about the fact that a lot of the star wars films are kinda meh.

I think Kylo was extremely well done... it is interesting having a villain that isnt "finished" yet and watching him evolve. I thought Rey was fine-ish.. she had some really good moments although I have my issues with the character. The fight against the red guard dudes was really cool. Yoda was cool.

For the quick nick pick side before we get heavy... the porgs were stupid, chewie was wasted, r2d2 was wasted, timeline was weird (and I don't think Carrie Fischer can act at all, not to speak ill of the dead), and I wish they didn't make Hux into some kind of a mini joke at the beginning.

My 100% biggest issue with this whole movie is Snoke. Not even just the fact that Abrams, Kennedy, Rian and Co acted like hsi origin was this huge mystery we would figure out and then didnt... but f*ck he is soooooooooooo important and such a huge plot issue to this universe. and he was actually really really really freaking cool and well acted and well designed.

How in this galaxy did a dark side user THIS powerful (he may have been the strongest force user we've seen on the big screen) avoid any Jedi or Palpatine detection all these years? We know there are other dark users than the Palpatine line sith from the cartoons but yeesh... this is a whole other beast of strength. And as Luke stated, that I didn't catch the first viewing... Snoke was in Kylo's brain trying to turn him from the beginning. He felt him when he had his "imma murder my nephew" moment.

So you have a ridiculously powerful dark side user (that acts just like a Sith but apparently isn't lol? wut?) who was able to turn a Skywalker right under THE jedi masters nose... and luke knew who he was and what he was trying to do... and we know nothign about him whatsover? Its like Abrams was basically tasked with doing a remake/update of New Hope and copied it to a tee and just didn't bother to think any of this through and Rian didn't want any part of it and moved on.

I know some people are like "well you don't have to know all the backstory!" but for someone this powerful I feel you did. if you are gonna have an extended universe you gotta play by those rules.

But that kinda leads to one of my big problems with Luke. Luke knew Snoke existed. Knew what he was trying to do.... why didn't he try and go murder snoke instead of murder his nephew lol?

I just really wanted to see a bad ass Luke. In a flashback or something. Yes the force projection was a damn cool power feat but... I just wanted to see the dude cut some peopel down with a saber. Is that really too much to ask lol? I generally liked a lot of his jedi thoughts about Balance and how there is always the balance and how the jedi caused a lot of the problems (or let them happen accidentally). I don't know how you do THAT type of ending though without the force projection thing. It would have been cool for Luke to f*ck up the walker mechs with the force but then there is no way he could lose to kylo and with snoke dead he had no equal. So I guess he had to kinda die but... meh.

I do wonder if they would have killed luke off if they knew Fischer wasn't going to be around. They have no "nostalgia" left really as all the important OT characters are gone.

I thought Poe had a interesting lil arc that is likely to set him up as THE leader/commander next movie (especially with Fischer dead). He royally f*cked up multiple times this movie but by the end I think he was showing true leadership and I think that wast he point.

Rey is just... almost too much sometimes.She just doesn't have any flaws other than caring too much lol? She didn't stop going straight to the dark? I just feel like the more intersting story would have actually been a Jedi Finn.

Speaking of Finn... what a GD f'ing waste of a character and great actor. The Canto side arc was all around sh*t. IT only existed to show off teh "hey look weird goofy aliens!" part of star wars movies and to give Boyega somethign to do. The code breaker being a traitor was so damn telegraphed. Rose had a use but I don't like the pairing and the suicide save at the end was just dumb. Finn isn't force sensitive, Finn can't pilot like Poe, and he isn't a leader so... what freaking use does he have next movie? He may have been better off just dying in the suicide run. Plus, his beef was Phasma was terrible, that fight sucked and surprise surprise... no straight win for Finn. Cut out the Canto arc crap and show me more Rey/Luke training (we never saw the third lesson) and the movie would have been better for it.

Can I still hold out hope Finn is force sensitive and Rey will train him next movie? No? not at all? Not even a low level jedi type? Please :(

I can’t put myself in the casual fan category for Star Wars, but I could see why its doing so well with casual fans. It is a great looking movie and it has action and some jokes and Porgs. I don’t think it’s as breezy or fun as Guardians of the Galaxy or Thor: Ragnarok but is better than Transformers: The Last Knight (and every other Transformers film) and Valerian in comparison to other intergalactic adventure films. And it’s a quicker paced sci-fi film than Blade Runner 2049. I could also see the praised dismantling of nostalgia as a way to ease up on continuity to make Star Wars more appealing to even more people who haven’t seen the original films and have no desire to watch them, read up on them or the Star Wars world, or watch the cartoons, read the novels, or play the video games. I also think the omnipresent marketing, and the decades long deep penetration of Star Wars into pop culture compels moviegoers to see TLJ, just like the other Star Wars films.

While I thought TLJ did a better job developing Ren I don’t buy him as a credible threat. He is very much unfinished, but it doesn’t work for me. Even his unpredictability hasn’t really resulted in some dastardly act so far. He destroys equipment when he gets upset and doesn’t Force choke or kill First Order officers. I also think him being unfinished doesn’t work because Rey, while also unfinished in her training, is already his superior. She doesn’t have to get her weight up, so to speak, to defeat him. He’s not a real challenge to her physically, so perhaps Episode IX will delve more into the psychological challenge Ren presents for her. That is one of the better parts of TLJ, Johnson did a good job creating a situation that could tempt Rey. Rey and Ren also neatly gets Rey away from Finn.

TLJ made a big deal about separating the ‘legend’ of Luke from the real person, however the idea of Luke’s legend is based on the EU mostly and has not been evidenced on screen post-ROTJ. So perhaps that was a swipe at the old fans for some reason, Johnson being an Alpha nerd who wants to show he’s better than the other nerds or something. But the funny thing is while Luke was being deconstructed, the legend making was continuing with Rey. So, the idea of being a legend isn’t so bad really, it’s just who the legend is supposed to be. I did like in TLJ that Rey’s search for identity, for a place in the universe, was more front and center than in TFA. In TFA, she was rooted to the past, her diehard belief that her parents would return to Jakku and retrieve her. Johnson strips that away in TLJ and thereby gives Rey some vulnerability, though by the end of the film it seems like she’s made her choice and that’s probably it for real character development. So far we haven’t really seen Rey fail. TLJ came the closest with Snoke’s interrogation, but of course, Ren was there to take out Snoke. But Ren is too weak-emotionally or otherwise-and ‘needs’ Rey at his side.

Poe very well could be the leader, though I would see him more of a fighting leader (so we can have more dazzling X-wing action) than sitting in some room making decisions. It’s likely that we might get another female admiral or official leading the rest of the Resistance, and having Poe back out leading the fight in his X-wing in Episode IX.

How Snoke was handled was disappointing. Sure, his death was a nice surprise-in the moment-but then you realize what a waste of a character it was. Why build him up only to kill him? And while some say he doesn’t matter, that’s because he didn’t matter to Rian Johnson and the film’s defenders are going to spin every decision made in this movie into a genius move. I don’t fully blame Johnson because Abrams just created Snoke and IMO had no idea who the character was, what his motivation was, and just left it for the next person to deal with. The idea that Snoke and Luke are two sides of the same coin, both want the Jedi and Sith to die in a sense, was a neat idea that wasn’t explored much at all. In part because Johnson was in a hurry to take out the elders so that Ren and Rey could take center stage. They might as well just made Snoke a Sith and his early exit might not have been so bad since we at least could assume what he was about then. Perhaps Ren will continue being a Vader fanboy and just restart the Sith.

It bothers me that some of the film’s defenders crap on ‘nostalgia’ and IMO like the idea of not using Sith or Jedi or minimizing them, while they turn a blind eye to all the other nostalgic characters, things (Millennium Falcon, TIE Fighters, lightsabers) or allusions (First Order/Empire, Resistance/Rebellion) that are still in the sequel films. Johnson or Disney are not as bold or radical or different as they claim. And if some of the defenders actually had read the EU or researched it a little without dismissing the old fans and the EU fans then they might discover that some of these ‘new’ and ‘bold’ things have already been covered in previous books or comics.

Finn as a Jedi would be something. I think they’ve trashed his character so much by this point I don’t know if even that would help, but it would be something. Right now, what skill does he have, except for infiltrating First Order ships/bases? Like you said, a waste of a good actor. I liked the Phasma fight at first, but on second thought, it wasn’t that great. For one it wasted Phasma who should’ve won that fight, and two it really wasn’t a clean win for Finn like I had thought when I watched it at first. Even though I’m not a fan of black characters sacrificing themselves for white characters, I’ll make an exception for Finn because I think his sacrifice was a moment of character growth for him and could’ve completed his arc. He went from fear of the First Order to being willing to die to stop them. I’m not a fan of the Rose-Finn pairing either, and her robbing Finn of his agency on Crait was one of several issues I had with their relationship. Though I knew that’s where Disney wanted to go when I learned about Rose and Finn going on an adventure together. I’m not an advocate of interracial relationships in the media, when it comes to black folks, because I feel there is an ulterior motive behind the depictions (an implicit knock against black-black intraracial relationships), but all that being said, I think Daisy Ridley and John Boyega have really good chemistry and it should be Rey and Finn together. Ridley has chemistry with Adam Driver too, but she has stronger chemistry with Boyega.

I don’t see them making Boyega a Jedi. And as for Rey training him, she needs training her damn self. I think Disney is making a mistake by deemphasizing Jedi training. It sets a bad precedent going forward, to just have characters be great fighters and so forth without any training (it removes some of the rules for this world, just like the hyperspace jump thing, and if they don’t replace those rules, it’s creating a vacuum). It also sends a bad message to kids that they don’t have to work hard, study, or train. But it is in keeping with the instant celebrities of our social media age. At least TLJ had Rey steal the Jedi books. I wish they had had a holocron instead. That way they could bring back Qui-Gon, Mace, Yoda, Luke, and various other Jedi to instruct her. Or that they bring back Shaak Ti. I think they repealed her death twice before Disney took over so from a canon standpoint she’s still out there. And they might actually allow a female Jedi to teach Rey something. Just saw on Shaak Ti’s Wookieepedia page that she did create a holcoron that Luke retrieved. It could be a great way to introduce another Jedi, and move away from the Skywalker line, while at least removing the criticism that Rey is too untrained.

I definitely understand how you felt about Luke not getting a really bad ass moment. I think it would’ve been a great scene and a great payoff for fans of the original movies to finally see Luke fully trained and at his height. I would’ve been fine with a flashback and even Hamill lookalike Sebastian Stan doing the fighting if they had to. I don’t get the disdain by some for ‘fan service’. I think it has to be balanced like everything else and put into the furtherance of a good story. But the idea that Disney shouldn’t do it, that its some kind of ‘pandering’ feels insulting to me like its more crapping on old fans. So, what exactly do these ‘new’ fans want out of Star Wars?

« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 07:26:49 am by Emperorjones »