Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)  (Read 59599 times)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #225 on: January 02, 2018, 08:13:02 am »
I wish ol George was more of an "architect" of SW while someone else (directors) iron out the actual films.

IE... don't let george write scripts or dialogue lol

I agree. Let George be the big idea guy. And also let him design more ships, world, aliens, costumes, etc. And name the characters. I haven't been super impressed with the names of a lot of the new characters.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #226 on: January 02, 2018, 09:28:06 am »
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/01/02/heres-why-youre-wrong-if-you-think-rey-needs-more-training-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#41f77132669d

I only skimmed this, but some TLJ are really reaching to justify some of the issues with the sequel films. While I did consider Rey a Mary Sue, I'll recant that. She's  not a Mary Sue but she's pretty close. From what I read here, it's like the writer has to crap on Luke in a sense to justify his arguments in defense of Rey. He says Luke was 'relatively pampered' compared to Rey. Granted Luke was raised in a stable household, but he also grew up on a planet controlled by Jabba the Hut and where the Sandpeople roamed, it wasn't a paradise. And it's like Luke getting assistance from Obi-Wan's ghost in the Death Star run, him losing his hand in Empire, and then him getting fried by the Emperor are ignored. Rey hasn't encountered anything like that so far.

Granted she did go to Luke and ask for his help, and she did hear voices when she touched Anakin's lightsaber, but that's not the same as a Force Ghost actively instructing you like what happened to Luke. And while Kylo Ren wasn't trying to kill Rey in TFA, neither was Vader trying to kill Luke in Empire, yet Luke lost a hand, and in TFA it was Ren who got a lasting scar from the encounter. And it's not just Luke saving the day in TLJ, he does provide the distraction, but it's Rey who saves the remnants of the Resistance with her rock lifting.

Rey is vastly overpowered for these films, in comparison to Luke, or even Anakin (who was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever), and people don't want to admit it. Rey is not a bad character, just a poorly developed one, and juicing up her abilities without proper explanation or training (when previous saga heroes got one or both of those things) doesn't fly and actually weakens her character. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/01/02/10-things-star-wars-episode-ix-absolutely-must-do-to-be-amazing/#22622b41dc90

I'm more in line with his points here than in the other article. I was thinking about #2 myself. Rey needs a double lightsaber. I also would like Ren to get a more traditional lightsaber. It might have been nice if he had kept Anakin's blade.


It sucks to say but people are only defending it so hard because shes a white girl.

Ben was skywalker blood in him, whose grandfather had the highest force potential we've seen, uncle may have ended up stronger (esp with that force projection feat), mother can pull a superman in space lol... trained at a young age by the only Jedi left... then trained an an older age in the dark side (which is the more raw power side of the force) by some powerful AF dude Snoke... who was able to train with other force users (sparing is a skill) as well...

vs...

Rey... who has no name parents... has some skills with a staff due to living by herself on a junk planet... who received all of two lessons from an "i quit" Luke. Neither lessons involved using the Force for anything "power" related.


Said Rey is CLEARLY the superior force user on the two. Her raw potential is on par with Kylo (as stated by Luke) but the fact she can wield it so well with NO training is just... its mary sue ish.

Lighstaber wise, Rey should have a Maul esque staff since that is her normal weapon anyway.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #227 on: January 02, 2018, 11:28:50 am »
Basically you hit the nail on the head. I just think there is such a push for feminism right now (especially if its a white female character) in the media that people don't want to see the problems with Rey or the feminist leaning sequels. Feminism trumps good characters or writing. If it continues down this vein I wonder where Star Wars will wind up? Sure, the old fans will eventually die off, but will this new take on Star Wars attract enough new fans to replace the old fans who will give up even before dying off?

Disney and Star Wars are both so global in their reach that it's suffocating so I can imagine that Star Wars will be going strong for at least another decade, but after that, who knows. If they keep putting out weaker films, if they strip away the 'nostalgia' and treat treasured characters like crap then what product will they eventually wind up with? Something that's like Star Wars in Name Only, but people will be afraid to say that out of fear of media backlash or browbeating.

As I've said before, I find it funny that people slammed the DCEU's grittier take, with their grimdark heroes, yet lavish praise on the similar direction that was taken with the sequel films, especially the depiction of Luke. Just a month ago one of the few positive things the media could cough up about the DCEU was Justice League's
Spoiler (click to reveal)
more hopeful take on Superman,
but now, Luke being hopeless and defeated is 'fresh and bold'. And some are touting TLJ's box office dominance, while they could dismiss that argument for any Transformer film or any other big film they find wanting for critical reasons, or whatever reason.


Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #229 on: January 02, 2018, 01:10:27 pm »
Basically you hit the nail on the head. I just think there is such a push for feminism right now (especially if its a white female character) in the media that people don't want to see the problems with Rey or the feminist leaning sequels. Feminism trumps good characters or writing. If it continues down this vein I wonder where Star Wars will wind up? Sure, the old fans will eventually die off, but will this new take on Star Wars attract enough new fans to replace the old fans who will give up even before dying off?

Disney and Star Wars are both so global in their reach that it's suffocating so I can imagine that Star Wars will be going strong for at least another decade, but after that, who knows. If they keep putting out weaker films, if they strip away the 'nostalgia' and treat treasured characters like crap then what product will they eventually wind up with? Something that's like Star Wars in Name Only, but people will be afraid to say that out of fear of media backlash or browbeating.

As I've said before, I find it funny that people slammed the DCEU's grittier take, with their grimdark heroes, yet lavish praise on the similar direction that was taken with the sequel films, especially the depiction of Luke. Just a month ago one of the few positive things the media could cough up about the DCEU was Justice League's
Spoiler (click to reveal)
more hopeful take on Superman,
but now, Luke being hopeless and defeated is 'fresh and bold'. And some are touting TLJ's box office dominance, while they could dismiss that argument for any Transformer film or any other big film they find wanting for critical reasons, or whatever reason.

they should have differentiated Kylo and Rey's powers a bit.

If you want to make it so Rey's Force potential and power is simply out of this world...then roll with that. Have her raw power be that.

But she shouldn't be able to refine it without training. she shouldn't be able hold and levitate rocks for instance... she would simply blow them up with little control. Her light saber technique should be based on her raw power... she shouldn't be able to out technique Kylo but if she taps into the force her strength could overpower him (ala Vader honestly).

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #230 on: January 02, 2018, 01:36:23 pm »
Not a bad idea, though I don't think Disney would want to suggest that Rey can't control her powers, that they might feel it diminishes her as feminist icon, or that it trades in the stereotype of women being overly emotional. I think Disney placed the burden of representation on the Rey character that makes it hard to write for her. And it's not like Rey was the only (white) female heroine out there, however it sort of feels to me that that's how Disney has approached this character, ignoring the good character work that has been done on the Clone Wars with Ahsoka or even Asajj Ventress. Both are great warriors, but both have more personalities and foibles/flaws than Rey has shown thus far.

I think the Rey character is too confined. And since they just want her to be awesome because she's a (white) woman they've tossed out the rules for using the Force doubling down on not having her go through the training (i.e. earn it) the way we somewhat saw Anakin and Luke do it. Getting training was a key big deal in the first six films, but now all of a sudden it doesn't matter.

They've compounded this problem by having Kylo Ren also be relatively unskilled with a lightsaber, which makes little sense since he was a student of Luke and Snoke. He should be better than he is. Perhaps this is Disney's way of distancing itself from the prequels when they had lightsaber fights that looked like ballet.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #231 on: January 02, 2018, 01:51:54 pm »
one thing about the Force is that it is horribly inconsistent.

Hell, I think Snoke was the first person i've seen he used the force lie id expect people to lol.

I mean... snoke could have thrown all of those red guards and snapped their neck effortlessly lol why fight them with laser swords when you can use a power others can't tap?

How could kylo and rey struggle against normal human guards when they can use the force to do telekinetic sh*t, force speed, force strenght, force agility, ect. It would be like MCU Cap or MCU Bucky or MCU Panther fighting people without powers. aka a bloodbath of brutality.


Hell... maybe we are simply overrated Kylo. He did get hit with a saber by a dude that got beat by a storm trooper so.... maybe hes more hype than skill lol

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #232 on: January 02, 2018, 02:00:15 pm »
You're right, the Force is inconsistent and it's also plot dictated. That being said, a big deal was made about Force sensitive people getting the proper training and even TLJ acknowledges this somewhat, perhaps just to subvert it.

Your description of Snoke reminds me of Palpatine in ROTJ. He didn't have a lightsaber, or at least a visible one, yet he radiated power.

Ren has been inconsistently portrayed. I don't think it's an issue of overrating him. I mean he caught a blaster bolt in mid-air, that's pretty powerful. He has been portrayed as powerful, yet unstable from jump. If I recall, in TFA it mentioned he murdered several of Luke's students and we see in TLJ the result of his handiwork, destroying the Jedi Temple. We also saw him do a force choke with more power than any Vader has administered when he checked Hux. And to his credit, he had taken a shot in the side before he fought Finn, and he possibly was toying with Finn somewhat-being a sadistic jerk-before getting to Rey in TFA. We don't know if the Praetorians were 'normal' humans. And it's likely we won't find on in a film, but possibly from one of the books or comics in the future.

Offline CKW

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #233 on: January 02, 2018, 02:26:23 pm »
I expected more spookiness in the birthplace of the Jedi than finger-snapping in unison in front of a mirror. There was no need for the rebels to be apart of the story to build tension. Rey finding out that she was very susceptible to the dark side was all the tension that was needed. Heck, Rey could have been the one to say that this Jedi thing is not all that it is cracked up to be and I wants no part of it.


Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #234 on: January 03, 2018, 05:44:06 am »
I don't always agree with Grace Randolph but I do like listening to her. And I agree that there is a media push for The Last Jedi. And they are spinning stuff to ignore any troubling signs.

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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #236 on: January 03, 2018, 06:16:11 pm »
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"The Case Against the Jedi"

Interesting feminist critique of the Jedi



Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #239 on: January 05, 2018, 08:15:10 am »
It is interesting that China just kinda shrugs at Star Wars.

I guess without the nostalgia factor, its just another space opera movie to them. But without the "fun" of a GoG or Thor (or the Marvel branding).