Poll

Should the MCU Recast T'Challa the Black Panther

Yes, for an actor who will further the Black Panther tradition started by Chadwick Boseman
9 (90%)
No, because there is no MCU Black Panther without Chadwick Boseman.
0 (0%)
Too soon for me to say.
1 (10%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: FEAR OF A BLACK PANTHER - New Black Panther Series by Eve L. Ewing & Chris Allen  (Read 90134 times)

Offline Ezyo

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Here's the thing, here's the PROBLEM with the black writers they are hiring currently. They are trying to input AFRICAN AMERICAN throughts, experience, and issues. Mind of shadow says it best.

Quote from: MindofShadow
It is just lazy to be honest.

You hire within a race or ethnic group or whatever because then the writer can share ideas, motivations, thoughts, and feelings someone outside of that ethnic group wouldnt' know first hand.

But... T'challa isn't American Black. He's African. And African king of a nation untouched by colonialism. An african king of a super power.

What person on earth can "relate" to that really lol?

Professional comic writers can work with that because it is PURE FANTASY. There is nothing to connect to really... it is like writing Thor for Bast sake. So, you get these professionals like Priest, Aaron, Ewing, Hickman and company and they just role with it because they are used to writing comic book fiction.

These novelists and journalists and newbs try to impart some african-american issues on an AFRICAN KING.  And it just doesn't work. There is nothing to connect to here.

This is the difference. And what MoS is getting at is these professionals write T'Challa as a badass character who happens to be Black. They take out the black out of Black Panther and just write him as a character and not a 'Black' character. When you start to focus on the 'black' part, you start to run into the issues wee saw with Coates and what we are seeing with Ridley. A constant need to humble, humiliate, and chastise Black characters (especially Black men) in some twisted beliefs of humanizing them.

Rarely does focusing on the characters blackness works. Hudlin managed to pull it off (unfortunately he had some hiccups being a noob to comics and we are unfortunately suffering from those mistakes today as they had MASSIVE drawbacks that are heavily derailing the franchise) but writers like Priest and Redjack wrote T'Challa THE CHARACTER first and his blackness second. They added to his World and gave it the African feel, but their focus wasn't to make it 'all black' but to make it GOOD.

I don't need only a black writer to write Tchalla. I need GOOD writers who want to write the character writing him, and it just so happens that Redjack who is black, would be the best writer for the job, followed by Ewing abd JA. The CHARACTER comes first, his personality, morals, beliefs, and traits. His race, sexual orientation, and political thoughts on IRL American politics comes second.

Offline CvilleWakandan

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What mistakes did Hudlin do? Only thing I remember is one issue with bad art, but I think that was just a substitute.
Reggie Hudlin-
 "I think my Panther run traumatized a lot of folks with its explicit blackness.  But you can't win unless you commit to something."

Offline Emperorjones

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I think this is false bind we put black characters (and black creators into). Why I say that is that we are supposed to only have two alternatives, a raceless "black" Black Panther that puts "character" first (stripped of racial context, as well as largely real history, and culture/influences) or a black Black Panther that is a neutered black male, a therapy session for anxious black writers (often male) to work out their racial and gender anxieties through.

I don't see it as having to be one or the other, or either. Black Panther's race can be used to make him stand out in fiction and in the real world. He can tap into a legacy that almost no other major black character can and I don't think it's something Marvel should run from or downplay. We often are given these raceless characters that are black on the outside but have little black interiority, that are basically no different than white characters. To me I see that as a dodge on the part of (often) white creators who can't, or won't, put themselves into their black characters' heads, and instead just go with the easy, warm platitude that "we are all the same" therefore there is little need to investigate the quirks and cleavages of history that do make us different, and therefore we get false diversity and not a real diversity of experience and opinion that could make for richer stories and characters overall.

I also don't see this as solely an issue of just black writers on Black Panther. Mind of Shadow mentions white writers who also input their thoughts, experiences, and issues onto Black Panther like black ones. If anything, many of the black writers successfully or not, do attempt to impart some kind of racial consciousness and not just make T'Challa raceless. Making T'Challa raceless undermines the powerful inspirational and aspirational appeal of the character as much as neutering him does.

The idea of Americans imparting or imposing their views on an African character, well, Black Panther was created by two white American men and owned by a white American corporation. 

Just about every other African character we know of, definitely in mainstream comics, share that same origin. T'Challa is as native African as Luke Cage, Falcon, John Stewart, etc., etc., came from the soil of the black American imagination. Basically, he isn't really African, as conceived by Africans. Black Panther isn't about the real Africa or an African nation or monarch, so much as a (white) American examination of those subjects. So, I can't fault them for imparting some of their views on the character. My hope is that many do enough research, as well as reflection, and approach Black Panther, as well as all black characters, with respect and care.

Further, Marvel has or is moving to put continental African, or other Diasporic black writers, in the Black Panther orbit, like Nnedi Okorafor, Roxane Gay, Evan Narcisse, and now Tochi Onyebuchi, and thus far, I've only heard this forum give Narcisse the most praise.

Let me add...I went back and reread what Ezyo said, and I hadn't noted before that Ezyo was talking about the current black writers, and not necessarily about black writers for Black Panther in general. I am more accepting that there is an issue with the current crop of Black Panther writers' takes on T'Challa, but I blame Marvel for that more than them. Marvel is hiring those writers. And while it appears some here have given up on Ridley, I'm not ready to give up on him yet. I do think he's a good writer and I'm hoping he'll come through. Though I do think his I Am Batman series is holding together better at this point, which perhaps does reinforce what Ezyo and others feel because Ridley perhaps is more a natural at writing a conflicted Black American character than a conflicted African one.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 09:32:20 am by Emperorjones »

Offline CvilleWakandan

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I think Ridley is doing good. He's got issues with Tchallas' filler dialogue and he needs a better fight artist. Story as a whole is fine although he needs more Oh S*** moments.

I like Tochi Onyebuchi so far. I like his Legends BP story and his first Sam Wilson issue was good. People who I think struggle with comics currently are Brandon Thomas, Chuck Brown, and Brandon Easton.

Bryan Hill, Rodney Barnes, David Walker are usually consistent.

I think Priest does agenda writing too, he just hides it within the story
Reggie Hudlin-
 "I think my Panther run traumatized a lot of folks with its explicit blackness.  But you can't win unless you commit to something."

Offline Ezyo

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What mistakes did Hudlin do? Only thing I remember is one issue with bad art, but I think that was just a substitute.

Creating Shuri and not giving her a role or any development at all other than a lesser, female version of T'Challa. Pairing Storm and T'Challa together, and killing off the majority of T'Challas male cast

Offline CvilleWakandan

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What mistakes did Hudlin do? Only thing I remember is one issue with bad art, but I think that was just a substitute.

Creating Shuri and not giving her a role or any development at all other than a lesser, female version of T'Challa. Pairing Storm and T'Challa together, and killing off the majority of T'Challas male cast

If he gave her a role people would have complained. She was a filler character until she became Black Panther. Her biggest fear until then was killing Radioactive Man. And Priest made Kasper BP, if it had been the run during the Hudlin years, he'd probably still be BP.

Under Hudlin the pairing was good. Other writers not knowing how to handle it isn't his fault.

He only killed W'kabi and Zuri and he only really interacted with them on a professional level. Under Priest and Hudlin he had no Wakandan friends. McGregor was the closest to depicting him as having any.
Reggie Hudlin-
 "I think my Panther run traumatized a lot of folks with its explicit blackness.  But you can't win unless you commit to something."

Offline Ezyo

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I will add that I'm not saying T'Challa needs to be a reskinned white hero. I am saying that him being Black shouldn't be  a core character trait, I a believe it leads to .any pitfalls that Black writers find themselves falling into.

I'm also not saying writers need to shy away from it either. What makes T'Challa so interesting is mixing RL African history and culture into the fantasy of an unconquered advanced African nation. But that's the lense it must be viewed through, and not an American Black lense, because T'Challa would not have the same experiences black Americans have and they need to stop trying to add them.

Redjack currently is the best writer for BP. He has proven he can tell a great BP story while highlighting abd expanding on his African heritage without getting hung up on it.

Just like how writers can get hung up on female characters going through the same tropes of overcoming sexism or the patriarch, the same happens when black characters have to deal with racism or the black experience, and can't tell any other stories.

For Ridley he has proven a couple things to me. One he can't do a engaging and exciting story with real stakes for T'Challa. We are coming into issue 6 with 'no idea' who the mastermind is, even though it's almost guaranteed to be hunter. He has the weakest reason for T'Challa to be acting the way he is and Wakanda as well. He has weakened T'Challa and made him ironically somehow weaker than Coates version.

He has some weird inconsistent dialogue (in the latest preview he is swearing and saying he was just bluffing? Who is this dude??) And he is AGAIN needing Storm to save him. Atleast when Coates punked T'Challa and Wakanda by having Storm save the day, the threat seemed somewhat more believable and powerful even though he still should of handled it. Ridley having T'Challa struggling and getting beat down by the HZ whom he had been beating on since their inception is just bad writing.

I don't have hope for Ridley, he has had more than enough time to ramp the story up and there's no excuse at this point. Add on his thoughts in the recent podcast he was apart of along with  Narcisse and it's clear he ain't it.

Offline CvilleWakandan

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The HZ are bigger threats than the green turbine goons Tchalla was losing to while wearing his suit.

Standard TV writing says the mastermind in a mystery is revieled in the penultimate issue. This arc will end at 8 so I'd expect it at 7.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 12:25:45 pm by CvilleWakandan »
Reggie Hudlin-
 "I think my Panther run traumatized a lot of folks with its explicit blackness.  But you can't win unless you commit to something."

Offline Ezyo

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What mistakes did Hudlin do? Only thing I remember is one issue with bad art, but I think that was just a substitute.

Creating Shuri and not giving her a role or any development at all other than a lesser, female version of T'Challa. Pairing Storm and T'Challa together, and killing off the majority of T'Challas male cast

If he gave her a role people would have complained. She was a filler character until she became Black Panther. Her biggest fear until then was killing Radioactive Man. And Priest made Kasper BP, if it had been the run during the Hudlin years, he'd probably still be BP.

Under Hudlin the pairing was good. Other writers not knowing how to handle it isn't his fault.

He only killed W'kabi and Zuri and he only really interacted with them on a professional level. Under Priest and Hudlin he had no Wakandan friends. McGregor was the closest to depicting him as having any.

Those mistakes are big ones, yes no one predicted that they would have long reaching negatives like how Storm had become a parasite or Shuri is taking T'Challas intelligence and the male cast is all bit gutted. But two of the 3 could of been mitigated easily.  I doubt anyone would of complained about Shuri actually being a character that was T'Challa lite, and she should of focused on something Tchalla didn't like magic. The male cast was gutted, but they still had a role, he might of been professional but they are still important, the same could be said about the DM yet look at Okoye. Point is Al 3 Could of been avoided

Offline Ezyo

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The HZ are bigger threats than the green turbine goons Tchalla was losing to while wearing his suit.

Standard TV writing says the mastermind in a mystery is revieled in the penultimate issue. This arc will end at 8 so I'd expect it at 7.

now is not the time to make the HZ great by beating on T'Challa, especially when throughout their publishing history they have been getting the business by him. That's not how you make credible threats, by bringing DOWN the lead. You up the threat to their level.

And the originators got the business from T'Challa, I'm talking about adversary.

Offline CvilleWakandan

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What mistakes did Hudlin do? Only thing I remember is one issue with bad art, but I think that was just a substitute.

Creating Shuri and not giving her a role or any development at all other than a lesser, female version of T'Challa. Pairing Storm and T'Challa together, and killing off the majority of T'Challas male cast

If he gave her a role people would have complained. She was a filler character until she became Black Panther. Her biggest fear until then was killing Radioactive Man. And Priest made Kasper BP, if it had been the run during the Hudlin years, he'd probably still be BP.

Under Hudlin the pairing was good. Other writers not knowing how to handle it isn't his fault.

He only killed W'kabi and Zuri and he only really interacted with them on a professional level. Under Priest and Hudlin he had no Wakandan friends. McGregor was the closest to depicting him as having any.

Those mistakes are big ones, yes no one predicted that they would have long reaching negatives like how Storm had become a parasite or Shuri is taking T'Challas intelligence and the male cast is all bit gutted. But two of the 3 could of been mitigated easily.  I doubt anyone would of complained about Shuri actually being a character that was T'Challa lite, and she should of focused on something Tchalla didn't like magic. The male cast was gutted, but they still had a role, he might of been professional but they are still important, the same could be said about the DM yet look at Okoye. Point is Al 3 Could of been avoided

Yes, look at Okoye. She's not even in Hudlins run. At least not named. That's a combination of Priest and Danai Gurira being a good actress. Storm being a parasite is all on Coates. He could have used her the same way even if they were never married. As far as Shuri, Tchalla is never in the lab. He fixes things on the fly. She occupies a Bond Q role, some writers are just lazy. And Tchallas tech side was never his best feature. The shrewdness semi missing it has best. I say semi because it's there in the background as actions he already did off panel. He just needs more in the moment shrewdness.

Also the HZ that Tchalla beats are not his, under Priest they were dismissed when he became King so they haven't received his training. Same with when he slapped on, they were Shuris'. These are supposed to be his. I'd expect to be as well trained at the sleeper agents, who are among the best fighters in the country.

Now that isn't to say that Ridley hasn't messed up. If this fight takes place at the same time as the end of the previous, hes definitely made a mistake.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 12:53:55 pm by CvilleWakandan »
Reggie Hudlin-
 "I think my Panther run traumatized a lot of folks with its explicit blackness.  But you can't win unless you commit to something."

Offline Emperorjones

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See a lots of good points made all around here.

One thing that Cville mentioned that stuck out to me was how Ridley was writing BP. While he also is a novelist and comic book writer, he's been most successful when it came to screen writing and perhaps, he's approaching BP that way. I don't have a problem with most of what I've read from Ridley's run thus far, though I do think the pace is way too slow. If we are coming up on the sixth book and the mastermind has yet to be revealed, it feels like foot dragging. I'm imagining how Marvel will compile this story for graphic novels. It feels a bit underwhelming to say only compile four or five issues at this point and not have the mastermind exposed in a cliffhanger or a hook to get people buying the next issue or graphic novel. To me, if this was an eight-issue arc or so, then there needed to be more secondary antagonists and action, as well as overall supporting character buildup to sustain this story for eight issues. As it stands, this doesn't feel like it needs to be that long a story and that at best the mastermind should've been exposed in the third issue, at the latest. That way, they could spend the next two-to-three issues (preferably two) fighting them, and then moving on to the next arc.

Regarding how Ezyo feels about Blackness as a core character trait, I think it is one. That doesn't mean it has to be the only thing discussed, especially in a stereotypical or performative way, but I think there's nothing wrong with Blackness being core to Black characters. It informs how they see the world and themselves, the friends they have, how they interact. What foods they might eat, music they might listen to, or how they might dress. I don't think every issue needs to be a soap box and written in a way to appeal or enlighten white/non-Black readers, but I also don't want Black characters who never are affected by race/racism. Of course not every Black person in the real world is affected by it the same way, but most (I would say all) have dealt with it on some level and I would like to see how that shapes how Black characters act versus non-Black characters.

I also have no problem with writers doing their best to focus on Black Panther as an African character either. Though I don't see writers not doing that as much of a problem as Ezyo seems to. I think it's more a matter of how things are written or depicted more so than a lot of times of what is being written. I like how Ridley's T'Challa is disdainful of the democratic changes sweeping Wakanda.While not specifically African, his stance feels more organic to me owing that he was an absolute monarch.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 02:00:38 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Ezyo

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What mistakes did Hudlin do? Only thing I remember is one issue with bad art, but I think that was just a substitute.

Creating Shuri and not giving her a role or any development at all other than a lesser, female version of T'Challa. Pairing Storm and T'Challa together, and killing off the majority of T'Challas male cast

If he gave her a role people would have complained. She was a filler character until she became Black Panther. Her biggest fear until then was killing Radioactive Man. And Priest made Kasper BP, if it had been the run during the Hudlin years, he'd probably still be BP.

Under Hudlin the pairing was good. Other writers not knowing how to handle it isn't his fault.

He only killed W'kabi and Zuri and he only really interacted with them on a professional level. Under Priest and Hudlin he had no Wakandan friends. McGregor was the closest to depicting him as having any.

Those mistakes are big ones, yes no one predicted that they would have long reaching negatives like how Storm had become a parasite or Shuri is taking T'Challas intelligence and the male cast is all bit gutted. But two of the 3 could of been mitigated easily.  I doubt anyone would of complained about Shuri actually being a character that was T'Challa lite, and she should of focused on something Tchalla didn't like magic. The male cast was gutted, but they still had a role, he might of been professional but they are still important, the same could be said about the DM yet look at Okoye. Point is Al 3 Could of been avoided

Yes, look at Okoye. She's not even in Hudlins run. At least not named. That's a combination of Priest and Danai Gurira being a good actress. Storm being a parasite is all on Coates. He could have used her the same way even if they were never married. As far as Shuri, Tchalla is never in the lab. He fixes things on the fly. She occupies a Bond Q role, some writers are just lazy. And Tchallas tech side was never his best feature. The shrewdness semi missing it has best. I say semi because it's there in the background as actions he already did off panel. He just needs more in the moment shrewdness.

Also the HZ that Tchalla beats are not his, under Priest they were dismissed when he became King so they haven't received his training. Same with when he slapped on, they were Shuris'. These are supposed to be his. I'd expect to be as well trained at the sleeper agents, who are among the best fighters in the country.

Now that isn't to say that Ridley hasn't messed up. If this fight takes place at the same time as the end of the previous, hes definitely made a mistake.

Okoye got a specific role and didn't deviate. She is a warrior.

 Storm being a parasite has persisted for years before Coates. He just made it alot worse.  But x office took potshots, and other writers kept associating them too. If Hudlin created an OC LI then we wouldn't be dealing with Storm at all. Again he couldn't predict that so it's less his fault, though he could of had a better reason than simply they are both Black.

T'Challa is just as comfortable in a Lab as he is on the fly. There are plenty of showings of him on the lab. Shuri should not fill that role because writers are seemingly incapable of showing two Super Geniuses. Same goes for the MCU. So make her either what Coates was going for Z or the brilliant compromise Redjack made on KiB. Because currently? They insert Shuri onto stories she doesn't belong in to provide technical babble T'Challa is more thank l capable of providing. This again, is due to a lack of a specific role.

And finally the HZ. They aren't Priests, ok. They aren't Shuris, okay. They also aren't T'Challas. They are Coates/ Akili, which are Arguably the weakest of all. The only characters trained by Tchalla are the agent's and  poorly written Omolola have T'Challa issues while being injured which should NEVER happen. Again the threats are scaled up, T'Challa is scaled down. And the premise and story is low stakes high risk, poorly choreographed, paced, and weak ooc dialogue far too often for T'Challas voice.


Offline CvilleWakandan

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Remember Al Ewing tried to make the change by making them Tchallas' personal mercenary group. That circle doesn't square with this story because they have a role in government. But at the end for Coates first arc he rebuilt the HZ with QDJ being his first call. So its reasonably to assume that these new ones are better trained.

And remember Akili almost won the rebellion/invasion on his own. If only he turned that gun in the proper direction. Lol.
Reggie Hudlin-
 "I think my Panther run traumatized a lot of folks with its explicit blackness.  But you can't win unless you commit to something."

Offline Ezyo

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I guess I see it alot as blackness being the only defining trait of character as of late. And it gets old. Again, I'm not asking for a reskinned white character. There's nothing wrong with getting into African roots, culture and history. It's what makes Wakanda interesting as it has kept all it's traditions and culture in tact. What I don't like are racial stereotypes and black dysfunction. Or turning Wakanda onto a Western analogue for slavery, and Columbus, with them needing to pay reparations (Coates). What I am saying is two fold. One T'Challa shouldn't ONLY be defined as a black hero and should be written as a CHARACTER first. And then further his character by showing his African heritage. And two, writers shouldn't completely shy away from it either and make him reskinned white

While Ridley hasn't done all that, he IS reinforcing another trope that Coates really pioneered onto the mythos which is black women being shown constantly as either the heroes who are faultless or the smarter off the two constantly telling Black men how wrong they are. Also the men being inert, traitors and just generally poorly written as a whole.

Ridley's T'Challa is good in having disdain for democracy with the strong argument of how easily it can spin it's wheel's trying to decide WHAT to do rather than taking action.

I don't care for how the writers though continue to use real world rules to fantasy in painting a absolute monarch as inherently bad and democracy as inherently good.