Author Topic: War for the Planet of the Apes (SPOILERS)  (Read 441 times)

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: War for the Planet of the Apes (SPOILERS)
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 06:11:53 am »

Whoa. I really like how you broke that down about Caesar's compassion being a weakness and the cause of a lot of his troubles. I hadn't considered that but the way you explained it makes a lot of sense. I haven't seen Dawn in a long time but I don't judge Koba as harshly. Yes he was a traitor and a murderer but he did have his reasons. He was made that way by humans so I get why he did it. And I do see his ghost being there to haunt Caesar, taunting him that maybe Koba was more right than Caesar was willing to admit. The story shortchanged it though by having Koba's actions be solely the result of some inner darkness as opposed to being the result of brutal mistreatment by the humans. Because if you keep it at the mistreatment level there is more Koba and Caesar have in common than if Koba is simply written off as an irredeemable monster.

They hinted at it in Dawn. How Koba only saw the worst in humanity while Caesar saw mostly the best. I believe Maurice even mentioned how he didn't know human kindness like Caesar did.

I think Koba's actions were 100% defensible until he didn't tell Caesar about the army base and all the guns that were there. That is when he switched from, "well meaning ape dealing with essentially PTSD" into "monster." Whether that is a good or bad thing is subjective a bit. I think it DID teach Caesar a valuable lesson that just because you are Ape, means you are good. Which was interesting... but they didn't really go into it much in War. I thought they lesson was going to be shown early when they caught the Donkey ape... but instead of executing him, they just took him away.

I really really thought we were going to get a tired, battle weary, hardened Caesar there but he was just too.... kind? soft? still.
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I think with this film they really didn't have any ideas of how to move Caesar's story forward post-Dawn or more so the war forward so they gave him a well-worn revenge arc that also echoed Rise in terms Caesar and other apes being caged. The story felt a bit tired despite the good cast and good FX. Looking back at it, this might have been the film to just shift the focus from Caesar to The Colonel as he's hunting Caesar. Basing the film around him and the devolving humans would've opened up more storytelling possibilities.

That would have been a very interesting direction to take. Very bold choice too.

Agree about feeling tired. I did watch the other two right before seeing this and it felt waaaay too much like the second one. I was no longer looking at the emotion they were able to get out of the mocap with awe... it felt like old hat.
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Caesar did gun down that deserter but only because the guy produced a weapon, so it wasn't like he rolled up on that dude and just blasted him away.

For me, I was thinking the young girl's inclusion was there to signal that all whites aren't bad and also it was the whole black people protecting white children thing that we see in movies too. But I was glad that they used Nova to set up the devolution of the human species.

I think War was lacking because it ended in a way that doesn't really set up why the apes decided to go the way they do in the Heston film where they have completely conquered the humans. I think Dawn was meant to discredit that idea with Koba more than to be a foreshadowing of what is to come. I wish we had perhaps had another dissenter among the apes or perhaps we had seen something the humans did that was so monstrous that the apes felt really compelled to conquer them. I wish the series had had the guts to give Caesar a dark destiny, where we are watching the rise of a dictator, but the Hollywood need to do stories about heroes or the inability to do stories centered around villains, also short circuited this final film. Rise and Dawn were great build ups but War fell short.

I can't remember the original trilogy well enough.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: War for the Planet of the Apes (SPOILERS)
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 06:20:57 am »
Maybe we didn't see a greater war, because realistically, a group of 200(?) Apes are not going to win a war against, even this US military.  The colonel won; he beat the.entire Ape nation.

Plus, every thing in this story leads up to the original movie which said IIRC that mankind destroyed itself; it wasn't conquered by the apes.

As far as Ceasar:. It's a movie troupe...real heroes do not execute a defeated foe.  For him to take revenge on a sick, defeated man would make him less than a hero.  But he has to die, so he commits suicide; another troupe.

Well... that is all the more reason to show us how it happened. How did the apes actually win against hardened special forces soldiers?

Would have been a great time to show Ape nations and other Ape LEADERS as well. Could they have been other "Caesars" out there? Perhaps even someone with the same commanding presence... show us interactions with Caesars with another Ape that is his "equal."

Instead of sending Blue Eyes and Rocket out for a new place to live... what if they sent them out looking for other Apes. Or hell... even other humans.

Hell, this movie gave them an out. Germ warfare using the newly mutated virus. It obviously works quite quickly judging by what happened to the Colonel.


IDK, the direction of this film just didn't fit the overall arc the movies were headed towards.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: War for the Planet of the Apes (SPOILERS)
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 06:43:27 am »
Maybe we didn't see a greater war, because realistically, a group of 200(?) Apes are not going to win a war against, even this US military.  The colonel won; he beat the.entire Ape nation.

Plus, every thing in this story leads up to the original movie which said IIRC that mankind destroyed itself; it wasn't conquered by the apes.

As far as Ceasar:. It's a movie troupe...real heroes do not execute a defeated foe.  For him to take revenge on a sick, defeated man would make him less than a hero.  But he has to die, so he commits suicide; another troupe.

Think how interesting things can be sometimes when tropes are upended? It makes things unpredictable and exciting. The Colonel beat Caesar's band. They aren't the entirety of the ape population. Bad Ape's inclusion was a hint of that, that there were other smart apes out there that weren't connected to Caesar.

Good point about humans destroying themselves and that perhaps was alluded to in the clash between Alpha-Omega and the other military. I wish we had seen more of that though. And that we had gotten a sense of how bad it was all over the world (a la the TNT series The Last Ship).

The thing about overturning troupes is you risk making Ceasar unsympathetic.  And will make some see his ending as deserved rather than sad.  Actually, that's another troupe. (Of course that ending was the one thing I didn't like.)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: War for the Planet of the Apes (SPOILERS)
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2017, 07:30:41 am »
Mind of Shadow,

I meant the Rise through War trilogy, not the original films. I'm actually trying to watch the original five films, but it's slow going. I'm making my way through the original Heston film currently. I didn't watch the two newer films before watching War so there was some things I knew I missed. I couldn't remember all of the Ape characters for one. I do recall Dawn having much bigger and better battle scenes than War did though. And I also thought that Rise had a stronger emotional center.

I guess Caesar, due to his experience with James Franco and Freida Pinto's characters had different views of humanity than say Koba who perhaps had only experienced human cruelty. Caesar experienced both human compassion and human cruelty so that left him holding out hope that Apes and humans could eventually find a peaceful solution and live together.

If we didn't know that that already doesn't turn out to be the case in the future, War left that possibility of peaceful coexistence still out there. In a way the end of War was conclusive for Caesar but ambiguous for the other Ape characters and for humanity.

I think maybe the rebooted films should just continue and remake the Heston film to make the times match up better. The Heston film takes place like thousands of years from the 20th century. I think the rebooted franchise should shorten that time period. They can still have say a NASA mission leave Earth in the 70s and just return in like 100 years after War. Or maybe even shorter, like 20 years after War. But if they do that, it will be harder to set up the Ape civilization that we see in the original films and the Tim Burton remake.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: War for the Planet of the Apes (SPOILERS)
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2017, 07:33:18 am »
Maybe we didn't see a greater war, because realistically, a group of 200(?) Apes are not going to win a war against, even this US military.  The colonel won; he beat the.entire Ape nation.

Plus, every thing in this story leads up to the original movie which said IIRC that mankind destroyed itself; it wasn't conquered by the apes.

As far as Ceasar:. It's a movie troupe...real heroes do not execute a defeated foe.  For him to take revenge on a sick, defeated man would make him less than a hero.  But he has to die, so he commits suicide; another troupe.

Think how interesting things can be sometimes when tropes are upended? It makes things unpredictable and exciting. The Colonel beat Caesar's band. They aren't the entirety of the ape population. Bad Ape's inclusion was a hint of that, that there were other smart apes out there that weren't connected to Caesar.

Good point about humans destroying themselves and that perhaps was alluded to in the clash between Alpha-Omega and the other military. I wish we had seen more of that though. And that we had gotten a sense of how bad it was all over the world (a la the TNT series The Last Ship).

The thing about overturning troupes is you risk making Ceasar unsympathetic.  And will make some see his ending as deserved rather than sad.  Actually, that's another troupe. (Of course that ending was the one thing I didn't like.)

Kip, I'm fine with that risk. I think about the ending of the movie SEVEN for example and what Brad Pitt's character did at the end didn't make him unsympathetic at all. War for example showed in great detail what kind of monster The Colonel was. He murdered his own son, he killed the other members of his group, he hunted down needlessly the Apes after Caesar had made a peaceful gesture. He enslaved the Apes and brutalized him. Killing him especially after he had contracted the virus could have been seen as a mercy killing on Caesar's part.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: War for the Planet of the Apes (SPOILERS)
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2017, 07:59:56 am »
Maybe we didn't see a greater war, because realistically, a group of 200(?) Apes are not going to win a war against, even this US military.  The colonel won; he beat the.entire Ape nation.

Plus, every thing in this story leads up to the original movie which said IIRC that mankind destroyed itself; it wasn't conquered by the apes.

As far as Ceasar:. It's a movie troupe...real heroes do not execute a defeated foe.  For him to take revenge on a sick, defeated man would make him less than a hero.  But he has to die, so he commits suicide; another troupe.

Think how interesting things can be sometimes when tropes are upended? It makes things unpredictable and exciting. The Colonel beat Caesar's band. They aren't the entirety of the ape population. Bad Ape's inclusion was a hint of that, that there were other smart apes out there that weren't connected to Caesar.

Good point about humans destroying themselves and that perhaps was alluded to in the clash between Alpha-Omega and the other military. I wish we had seen more of that though. And that we had gotten a sense of how bad it was all over the world (a la the TNT series The Last Ship).

The thing about overturning troupes is you risk making Ceasar unsympathetic.  And will make some see his ending as deserved rather than sad.  Actually, that's another troupe. (Of course that ending was the one thing I didn't like.)

Kip, I'm fine with that risk. I think about the ending of the movie SEVEN for example and what Brad Pitt's character did at the end didn't make him unsympathetic at all. War for example showed in great detail what kind of monster The Colonel was. He murdered his own son, he killed the other members of his group, he hunted down needlessly the Apes after Caesar had made a peaceful gesture. He enslaved the Apes and brutalized him. Killing him especially after he had contracted the virus could have been seen as a mercy killing on Caesar's part.

I agree here.

The Colonel was a monster. So much so the other humans were coming to blow his ass up.

Caesar earned sympathy throughout the trilogy. Enough to be able to end the Colonel and still come off as a hero.