Author Topic: Justice League Movie (spoilers)  (Read 6944 times)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2017, 04:58:12 pm »
^
Definitely the Avengers got the advantage of being first. If Justice League had come out as it was in say 2000 or 2006, without any changes. Even 2010, yeah, I think it would be viewed differently. Perhaps not universally loved but not so criticized either.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2017, 04:38:07 am »
It made less than IM1 did though (not even counting in the 10 year inflation). An IM1 pre MCU hype (since it was the first), staring a out of rehab RDJ with a B list character.

How does that even happen?

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2017, 05:04:33 am »
Ok, now that got my computer... talking jut about the movie itself and ignoring the other DCEU stuff and MCU (which I will get to next lol)

Most of my audience seem to enjoy it. Which is stunning it is doing so poorly at the box office. Of course, I was in the 2D, smallest theater showing so it had limited number of seats but they were filled. Everyone seemed to REALLY love the Flash and the return of Superman hit home for them. And the post credit scenes were REALLY popular, but that may have just been some very loud comic fanboys though.

I found the pre-superman part of the movie to be very... lacking. I don't know why we needed "Wonder Woman stops terrorist" thing. Still not sure why we do lol. I was really excited about Aquaman (my DC fave) and possibly going to Atlantis but the underwater fight was meh as sh*t and it has me worried about that movie now. Especially the whole "we can't talk unless in bubble" thing. It was just... murky. Hard to see what was happening. Also seemed very weird that super important motherbox was guarded by... 3? soldiers and then randomly Mera.

They just seemed to take too long going through the "roll call" fo the JL members. Avengers did it to but did it in a much more interesting way because they didn't have to introduce them... they were adding to their story. JL just went "This is Flash. Here is something personal. Here is a chance to use his powers. You'll like Flash." And then did the same thing for Aquaman and Cyborg.

I found WW to be... just there. She was there to fight Steppenwolfe and thats it. Gal's acting was... not strong IMO. the Wonder Woman's movie decision to put the very charismatic Chris Pine next to year and let her bounce off of him seemed to really help hide the fact Gal' isnt the strongest actress in the world.

Once the team finally got together, the movie got a lot more interesting. The conversation to bring Supes back may have been the highlight of the movie honestly. And despite Canvil's distractingly bad upper lip CGI... Superman was the best part of the film. Of course, im just about sick of "Always in the right spot because the plot demands it!" Lois Lane but yeah... Supes felt lie Supes for the first time... and also highlighted the fact that the Justice League kinda sucks lol. Supes one shot the whole team and then when he returned, treated Steppenwolfe like a red headed step child. HE makes the team obsolete by himself. Fast as the Flash, stronger than Diana, can fly, heat vision, ice breath (yes!), doesn't need weapons, invulnerable... holy moly lol

I think Flash and Cyborg should have a Titan's movie. This version of Flash can't hold his own movie... no way. That's impossible. But Cyborg + Flash + 2-3 more younger heroes (nightwing since he has a movie coming) could work. Maybe.

Steppenwolf was so bad

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2017, 05:12:52 am »
I did find it surprising that they made WW weaker than Superman. In comics, they push their equal strength levels.  But I loved the Superman's first use of super speed against the Flash. 

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2017, 06:14:22 am »
Justice League.... Don't know why everyone is knocking this movie.  I enjoyed it.  I mean it's not orginal---a lot is the first Avengers movie with a bigger special effects budget and maybe little less character development.  But it's good.

I agree mostly. It's pretty similar in plot to the Avengers. But I think it was better paced than the Avengers which was really slow in the beginning as it reintroduced characters it likely didn't need to. League did that but also had to establish Aquaman, Cyborg, and Flash. It had a tougher job. I was reading a review that compared Avengers to a season finale whereas League was like a season premiere. Avengers benefited from a well-executed plan that stoked public excitement and it provided a big payoff. Justice League was coming in wobbly, with fans uncertain what they were getting, another gem like Wonder Woman or another turd (according to the critics and not me) like BVS. So the anticipation was more like dread than pure happiness with Justice League IMO.

League might have had a bigger FX budget but I'm not sure it looked that way compared to Avengers. The Battle of New York was great. I do think more could've been done in the climatic bout in League.

Personally, I didn't mind the slowness of the Avenger's movie because I found the conversations between the characters to be great (especially Widow and Banner). and I actually cared about the characters because I already saw them. I also felt like the movie was purposely "leading" the viewer on before dropping the hammer down with the battle of New York. Unlike Justice League... the Avengers members did not fight together at all until the final fight. There were some individual fights (im/thor, thor/hulk, cap/loki) but that saved the true Avengers coming together until the end. The MCU slow burned your ass for 5 movies and then did it in the movie to "bring them together." And it worked, IMO of course.

The Avengers also was able to give you those moments i the movie that were memorable, something JL failed at IMO. stuff like Thor calling his hammer to fight hulk and then smahign him with it, Hulk smashing loki, hulk smashing the serperts, the various team ups in the final battle that looked like a comic book coming to life.

And all the SFX were top notch (movie still looks good).

I feel the DCEU blew there load on BvS. They should have NEVER teamed those three up if there long term plan was Justice League. What was really special about JL? We already saw their big three team up to fight an unstoppable CGI monster in BvS. So you don't get that "moment" akin to the Avengers where all the big guns are together that you waited years for.

They simply should have had Man of Steel, Wonder Woman, Batman (in his prime), and then Aquaman movies followed by JL. This version of Flash doesn't really need a solo movie becaue he's so green and Cyborg just exists for exposition dumps and to get torn apart so they can be the introduced in the actual JL movie. That would have made JL seem like an event instead of just another DCEU movie.

WB tried to rush their whole universe and failed because of it. They were too reactionary to everything with no long term plan. They keep tryng to compete with the MCU instead of just focusing on themselves. Look how many times they have changed movie announcements the last few years. They bounce back and forth between being "director controlled" and then they snatch a movie up and edit it to sh*t when its done.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2017, 06:15:57 am »
I did find it surprising that they made WW weaker than Superman. In comics, they push their equal strength levels.  But I loved the Superman's first use of super speed against the Flash.

It was jarring for me. Like they aren't even close. Aquaman and WW seemed closer in power levels than Supes and WW.

You *could* say WW was holding back because she didn't want to hurt Kal but yeesh... strength and speed wise they aren't even close.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2017, 02:25:50 pm »
I did find it surprising that they made WW weaker than Superman. In comics, they push their equal strength levels.  But I loved the Superman's first use of super speed against the Flash.

I've never seen WW having equal strength to Superman. She comes close. She can definitely hurt him. And the magic thing is a wild card I don't think the books go into that much whenever they face off, and that would give her the definite advantage. That being said, if she can beat the crap out of Superman then what's the point of having Superman? They don't need him.

And there's an issue too with team movies like team books in terms of making various characters weaker on some level to justify the team up whereas they might be able to face even greater threats in their own solo books or movies.

I do think Justice League made Wonder Woman weaker, but it also made Batman weaker, and I was surprised by that. The comics usually have him super prepared and super ready to handle anything. Heck, he created a gun that could kill Darkseid in Final Crisis, but here, he was struggling against Parademons and had no plan beyond Lois Lane to neutralize Superman. I still don't get why the film never had WW taking off her bracelets and fully powering up though.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 04:12:30 pm »
Taking the bracelets off to bring WW up to full power hadn't been stated as a thing in the movies.  Actually, they probably don't or she's more powerful as Diana who doesn't wear them.

Offline TripleX

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 09:30:38 pm »
It made less than IM1 did though (not even counting in the 10 year inflation). An IM1 pre MCU hype (since it was the first), staring a out of rehab RDJ with a B list character.

How does that even happen?

Comicbook movie burnout, the general public haven't been waiting all their lives to Justice League like some of us have. For us it was treat, for them it was more of the same cgi slug fests they get in any film with superheroes. Spiderman: Homecoming was the best Spiderman film I've ever seen, but because it came after so many others it underperformed.  That's the deal with Justice League.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2017, 04:37:35 am »
Taking the bracelets off to bring WW up to full power hadn't been stated as a thing in the movies.  Actually, they probably don't or she's more powerful as Diana who doesn't wear them.

I thought that was stated in Wonder Woman's film? I must be misremembering.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2017, 04:53:59 am »
It made less than IM1 did though (not even counting in the 10 year inflation). An IM1 pre MCU hype (since it was the first), staring a out of rehab RDJ with a B list character.

How does that even happen?
Spiderman: Homecoming was the best Spiderman film I've ever seen, but because it came after so many others it underperformed. 

it didn't underperform actually. It just opened really really late in China and had massive legs... so click bait sights jumped on the "underperform" narrative before the movie could finish its run.

It made 333 million domestically. Neither of the garfiled movies got close to 300 mil.

WW, it made 880, which is behind only Spider-Man 3.

It is the 5th highest MCU movie every WW, behind only Avengers, AoU, IM3, and CW.

It is the highest reboot of all time.

It outsold both WW and GoG2 world wide

and only cost 170 million to make.

This movie was 100% a hit

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2017, 04:54:47 am »
Taking the bracelets off to bring WW up to full power hadn't been stated as a thing in the movies.  Actually, they probably don't or she's more powerful as Diana who doesn't wear them.

I thought that was stated in Wonder Woman's film? I must be misremembering.

I just watched it a couple days ago, they never mentioned it. They just put the bracelets on her with no explanation.


Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2017, 07:12:17 am »
Taking the bracelets off to bring WW up to full power hadn't been stated as a thing in the movies.  Actually, they probably don't or she's more powerful as Diana who doesn't wear them.

I thought that was stated in Wonder Woman's film? I must be misremembering.

I just watched it a couple days ago, they never mentioned it. They just put the bracelets on her with no explanation.

Thanks. My memory is just not so good.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2017, 07:27:32 am »
Justice League.... Don't know why everyone is knocking this movie.  I enjoyed it.  I mean it's not orginal---a lot is the first Avengers movie with a bigger special effects budget and maybe little less character development.  But it's good.

I agree mostly. It's pretty similar in plot to the Avengers. But I think it was better paced than the Avengers which was really slow in the beginning as it reintroduced characters it likely didn't need to. League did that but also had to establish Aquaman, Cyborg, and Flash. It had a tougher job. I was reading a review that compared Avengers to a season finale whereas League was like a season premiere. Avengers benefited from a well-executed plan that stoked public excitement and it provided a big payoff. Justice League was coming in wobbly, with fans uncertain what they were getting, another gem like Wonder Woman or another turd (according to the critics and not me) like BVS. So the anticipation was more like dread than pure happiness with Justice League IMO.

League might have had a bigger FX budget but I'm not sure it looked that way compared to Avengers. The Battle of New York was great. I do think more could've been done in the climatic bout in League.

Personally, I didn't mind the slowness of the Avenger's movie because I found the conversations between the characters to be great (especially Widow and Banner). and I actually cared about the characters because I already saw them. I also felt like the movie was purposely "leading" the viewer on before dropping the hammer down with the battle of New York. Unlike Justice League... the Avengers members did not fight together at all until the final fight. There were some individual fights (im/thor, thor/hulk, cap/loki) but that saved the true Avengers coming together until the end. The MCU slow burned your ass for 5 movies and then did it in the movie to "bring them together." And it worked, IMO of course.

The Avengers also was able to give you those moments i the movie that were memorable, something JL failed at IMO. stuff like Thor calling his hammer to fight hulk and then smahign him with it, Hulk smashing loki, hulk smashing the serperts, the various team ups in the final battle that looked like a comic book coming to life.

And all the SFX were top notch (movie still looks good).

I feel the DCEU blew there load on BvS. They should have NEVER teamed those three up if there long term plan was Justice League. What was really special about JL? We already saw their big three team up to fight an unstoppable CGI monster in BvS. So you don't get that "moment" akin to the Avengers where all the big guns are together that you waited years for.

They simply should have had Man of Steel, Wonder Woman, Batman (in his prime), and then Aquaman movies followed by JL. This version of Flash doesn't really need a solo movie becaue he's so green and Cyborg just exists for exposition dumps and to get torn apart so they can be the introduced in the actual JL movie. That would have made JL seem like an event instead of just another DCEU movie.

WB tried to rush their whole universe and failed because of it. They were too reactionary to everything with no long term plan. They keep tryng to compete with the MCU instead of just focusing on themselves. Look how many times they have changed movie announcements the last few years. They bounce back and forth between being "director controlled" and then they snatch a movie up and edit it to sh*t when its done.


Very good point from Triple X about the causal filmgoer perspective. I'm too inside it to have considered that. But yeah, on the outside these comic book movies might all just look similar. And in many respects they are. So one might not be any different than the other, except if one is getting universal praise like Ragnarok and the other is getting slammed by the critics like Justice League, it makes sense if people who aren't invested in these things like hardcore fans, will back off or go with the critical consensus.

I thought the character moments in Justice League worked for the most part. I wish there had been more of them. With Avengers I felt the beginning was too slow because we had seen some of these characters introduced-in detail in other films. And there's a tendency to indulgence and irreverence with the Marvel films, a smugness, that I can't say started with Avengers but I do think has infected the subsequent Marvel films. And the audience for the most part is okay with it because they've earned the audience trust. WB/DC has not done that yet so they might get knocked for it. And Marvel has also gotten the low-hanging fruit with its humor and character beats so DC doing something similar is going to be seen as copying. Justice League had a lot more to do with introducing half of their team and Avengers really just needed to flesh out Hawkeye.

I think the plan was for Justice League to be a two part epic. Snyder was building up something much bigger that would justify forming the League more than what we saw in the finished film.  It looked to me that BVS was setting up either a full on invasion by Darkseid or an Injustice scenario with an evil Superman. However due to the poor reception of BVS, WB just started changing plans. So Justice League serves as either a one and done or they can revisit Darkseid later. I think that's why they mentioned him in the film, but unfortunately didn't do additional set up.

I get why WB wants to move away from Darkseid because of the similarities with Thanos. And I guess they weren't thinking to beat Infinity War to the punch and put Darkseid in this film, getting ahead of Thanos in Infinity War next year. Perhaps they were afraid of the comparisons. So with this Justice League film it serves to make true Lex's warning at the end of BVS but still leave the door open to bring in Darkseid down the road.

I also get why WB moved forward with the Justice League instead of doing individual origin movies for Cyborg, Aquaman, and Flash first. I'll throw  Batman in there too because perhaps this take on the character needed more defining. Anyway, I think they were behind the 8-ball and didn't count on how long the comic book movie boom might last. I also suspect they were afraid that if they kept rolling out solo movies that they would get diminishing returns or half-victories like Suicide Squad and it would tarnish the brand. So why not just give people want they wanted anyway and that's a team-up movie.

In cartoons Cyborg has been around since the 80s and is prominent in the Teen Titans cartoon from a decade ago and the current Teen Titans Go. Flash has had two television series and Aquaman at least is something of a popular punchline so all of these characters had some name recognition. Granted the audience hadn't seen these versions of the characters, but I would argue that somewhere along the way they had encountered a version of Flash and Aquaman at least, or knew their names and knew that they were superheroes.

So I can see that supporting the WB suits decision to just leap frog over solo individual films to do a big film and then with the hoped for success of Justice League it would get fans excited for the individual films. And it would be a different strategy than Marvel, banking on the (once held) bigger name recognition advantage DC had. Unfortunately it didn't work. That being said, we'll see if the movie has any legs, breaks even, and maybe even eeks out a tiny profit. I think all those things are possible. Despite its flaws, Justice League is popcorn entertainment that isn't a big offender when it comes to foul language and might even be less an offender when it comes to graphic violence compared to Ragnarok.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 07:35:09 am by Emperorjones »

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Justice League Movie (spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2017, 07:52:24 am »
Justice League opened at 94 million

Less than every single DCEU movie by far

MoS- 116
BvS- 166
SS- 133
WW- 103
JL- 94

WB just f*cked up hard. this can't be blamed on RT... ain't like BvS or SS were rated better. China didn't save it either.

Quote
Forbes has done some number crunching, and they reckon that between the $300 million in production costs and a further $150 million spent on marketing, Zack Snyder's film would need to earn between $700 million and $750 million worldwide just to turn a profit. As of now, final projections come in at around $635 million, which obviously does not bode well.

There's always a chance the numbers are off, but even if Justice League manages to break even or make some money for the studio, one has to assume that WB brass are currently planning some big changes moving forward.



CoCo comes out soon and then looms Star Wars a couple weeks after that.

There isn't time for Legs... they f*cked up HARD.