Author Topic: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?  (Read 2700 times)

Online Beware Of Geek

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 08:59:15 am »
I think the real takeaway from this is that the storytelling conventions from comics CAN'T be used for film.  They are, in fact, completely different storytelling mediums, even if some of the techniques are similar.  There's no such thing as a "sliding timeline" when your actors age. :D

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2017, 10:29:56 am »
It also really hurts that Jackman was playing a character that doesn't age lol.

True!  Not to mention that Jackman is still young and fit enough (with maybe a little cosmetic help) to pull off a "...best there is..." Wolvie.  How much of the franchise's story direction has to do with Hugh's contract and desire to continue in the role?


Peace,

Mont

The saddest part about Jackman Wolverine is that he FINALLY got to tell that R rated, brutal story he always wanted to tell... and he didn't get to do it until his last movie with a diminished, broken Wolverine.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2017, 10:31:02 am »
I think the real takeaway from this is that the storytelling conventions from comics CAN'T be used for film.  They are, in fact, completely different storytelling mediums, even if some of the techniques are similar.  There's no such thing as a "sliding timeline" when your actors age. :D

Hell, the foxverse is about as comic accurate as you can get honestly.

timeline all over the place, characters aging and de aging, "villain of the year" story telling, re using the same villains over nad over without killing them off, ridiculous time travel shennanigans,

Offline Ture

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 12:01:37 pm »
The MCU may be taking the road less traveled by telling a one overarching interactive narrative inclusive of interlocking franchises and solo films that culminate with a grand finale. They then start the process over again with different characters. After this palate cleansing they can reintroduce previous characters with new actors in the role.

Batman has successfully demonstrated that it is the character being properly interpreted and portrayed not necessarily the actor that fans and the general audience want to see. The actor's essential  responsibility is to be successful in pulling it off. I think Iron Man and other MCU characters will follow suit.

Complicating matters is CGI and Motion Capture technologies. These techs can ensure the visage of an actor who has become so identified with character need never suffer the ravages of time. Witness Princess Leia and Grand Moff Tarkin; RDJ was reimaged in CA:CW; Logan even used it. Licensing and image rights legalities will determine the course of immortalizing thespians and the roles they play.

By the way, an excellent thread Kimoyo, thank you. I really enjoy reading all the insightful commentary posted here at the HEF.
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Online Beware Of Geek

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2017, 12:18:55 pm »

Batman has successfully demonstrated that it is the character being properly interpreted and portrayed not necessarily the actor that fans and the general audience want to see.


I'm not so sure about that.  What worked in the 90's may not work here and now.  Look at all the press over the idea that Affleck may not keep doing Batman.

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2017, 12:51:13 pm »
Did they ever reboot Batman in the same universe? When they usually do it, they reboot EVERYTHING, not just switch actors.

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2017, 01:02:18 pm »
Depends on how you describe the Burton-Shumaker era, I think.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2017, 02:29:20 pm »

By the way, an excellent thread Kimoyo, thank you. I really enjoy reading all the insightful commentary posted here at the HEF.


My pleasure Ture!  Lot of knowledgeable new cats on the HEF.  I'm enjoying all the insight shared as well!

Peace,

Mont

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2017, 07:28:58 am »
Depends on how you describe the Burton-Shumaker era, I think.

As far as they were concerned Batman was like Bond (except with less cachet). The actors do their turn and then move on.

All those movies were set in the same universe but with a different dude as Batman every third movie or so.

Val Kilmer and George Clooney only did one apiece but they were supposed to be the same dude. They had the same Robin.
And the same Alfred.

The Marvel movie have already introduced the idea of an Avengers membership in flux. When it comes time for Chris
Evens and Robert Downey Jr. to walk, they won't need to replace the actors playing Cap and Iron Man right away with new actors. And they won't need to replace their character's role in the franchise right away either

There are at least three franchises that should be able to pick up that slack and that isn't even counting Sony's Spider Man.

Offline 4sake

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2017, 03:23:40 pm »
Great thread/topic, overall to answer your questions I would say some cases yes and other cases no.. in the case of the movie Logan I would overall have to say no, but with the Wolverine film franchise and X-Men film franchise as a whole I will save most definitely.. Imo Logan is probably the best x-men movie & best fox superhero movie..

While I agree, it is frustrating that the one time you finally get to see Logan really cut loose was in the last movie of the franchise and in a diminished state, that's more so a fault of fox mismanagement of the X-Men and Wolverine films as a whole.. personally I feel Jackman with a miscast move ring from day one but he did a pretty good job overall but seemly from what being heard online he reportedly wasn't really interested in doing any more Wolverine/x-men movies unless Wolverine was going to be able to team up with the heroes of mcu or & deedpool which currently seems like something was not possible due to various reasons.. so but that's type of thinking is probably best to send the character out on a high note which I think overall Logan was..
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 03:42:37 pm by 4sake »
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Offline 4sake

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2017, 03:26:01 pm »
Coates is a social commentator who specializes in the oppression and victimization of so called Black people. He has been lauded for his elocution and like many of his kind, pride themselves on their ability to articulate the challenges of so called Black people through the lens of popular political rhetoric. The so called relatable truths of this approach masks a thinly veiled corrupt ideology designed to make Afrakans seem like their own worst enemy.

With this in mind Coates is the very antithesis of a storyteller who is tasked to craft a victorious Afrakan nation wherein its societal norms demonstrate the highest levels of human achievement while being led by an heroic Afrakan leader. By definition and vocation, Coates is simply incapable of scribing such a vision.

Storytelling for the Black Panther fails because the convention is that primitivism, drugs, poverty, corruption, coups, domestic abuse, homosexuality, feminism and emasculation must all take center stage and supplant any and all Afrakan centered paradigms of autonomy and empowerment. Comics Creators like Coates, haven't lost touch with storytelling they simply tell stories not worth telling.

My two cents.  ;)


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Offline 4sake

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2017, 03:41:30 pm »
Coates is a social commentator who specializes in the oppression and victimization of so called Black people. He has been lauded for his elocution and like many of his kind, pride themselves on their ability to articulate the challenges of so called Black people through the lens of popular political rhetoric. The so called relatable truths of this approach masks a thinly veiled corrupt ideology designed to make Afrakans seem like their own worst enemy.

With this in mind Coates is the very antithesis of a storyteller who is tasked to craft a victorious Afrakan nation wherein its societal norms demonstrate the highest levels of human achievement while being led by an heroic Afrakan leader. By definition and vocation, Coates is simply incapable of scribing such a vision.

Storytelling for the Black Panther fails because the convention is that primitivism, drugs, poverty, corruption, coups, domestic abuse, homosexuality, feminism and emasculation must all take center stage and supplant any and all Afrakan centered paradigms of autonomy and empowerment. Comics Creators like Coates, haven't lost touch with storytelling they simply tell stories not worth telling.

My two cents.  ;)


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One of the big cinematic universe is going ot have to take the recasting plunge before it becomes a thing.

AKA, Marvel is going to have to do it first. If they even want to.

One advantage to movies compared to comics is that it takes a decade to get a trilogy. So actually using legacy heroes and moving on could actually work because you are unlikely to run out of heroes before an inevitable reboot anyway.

I just can't see Disney killing off a potential merchandise cash cow like Cap or Iron Man or something like that. I mean sh*t, those dudes are going to be on T shirts. We all know they ain't putting Sam Wilson Cap on a kids tshirt...



Short-term I actually could see them going the Legacy route i.e. Sam/Cap, Valkyrie(in place of Jane) & etc for a year or 2, until they work out their long-term plans.. but honestly depending on their story choices they don't really have to replace the actors in my opinion.. The Next Thor movie could Ragnarok happen and and do a Time skip in the apgar dimension only or something of that nature and have Thor as king Thor to supplement the actors aging. With Iron Man naked just keep the actor in the suit most of the time and not do anymore solo Iron Man films or they could do the Hologram Iron Man headed out some of his aging.. with Steve are they can say the super serum and his blood is starting to fade and that's why he's aging.. to me it more comes down some money and how much they want to pay those actors because a lot of them are going to start commanding a lot more money than they are currently making..
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Offline 4sake

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2017, 04:06:08 pm »
I think the real takeaway from this is that the storytelling conventions from comics CAN'T be used for film.  They are, in fact, completely different storytelling mediums, even if some of the techniques are similar.  There's no such thing as a "sliding timeline" when your actors age. :D

Hell, the foxverse is about as comic accurate as you can get honestly.

timeline all over the place, characters aging and de aging, "villain of the year" story telling, re using the same villains over nad over without killing them off, ridiculous time travel shennanigans,

Excellent points, the main reason why why that is lack of true leadership and and white supremacist Fanboy thinking..

I mean seriously think about this Mystique is is currently the field leader of the X-Men, it's like if the MCU Rebooted and may Loki not only Avengers member but had his ass in charge s*** is ridiculous..

The last three movies have Focus 4 white dudes and a white woman.. all the while stealing either narratives and plot points and even power in some cases from other characters in the franchise that are people of color.. and it's not even done from a business standpoint or even a solid narrative standpoint is pure white boy fanboyism.. it's like every time they a solid reason to focus on Jubilee or Shadowcat or Darwin or storm or really anyone not named Professor Xavier Magneto Beast Mystique or Wolverine.. the director be like nah let's double down on that Wolverine and triple 9 on that Mystique mean got enough of that in there..

The director literally gave Darwin's powers to Mystique and Days of Future Past and Shadow cats roll to Wolverine in the story and then had a group of minorities and Comics all who are either brown or  black or & African descent standing outside and protect all the white people inside and get murdered and say zero lines.. and no one in any of these meetings said hey just looks kind of f*****-up or that might not be right they patted themselves on the back so you know what excellent...

They make a big deal about fasting Jubilee and and Olivia Munn and have them do jack schitt in the movie cut out scenes with their characters and have them Breakaway from the main cast at the most awkward time just so they don't end up joining the lillywhite team at the end of the story..

Even when they do something right for the most part with Deadpool the next erector man to f*** it up.. in a case with Warhead in that film in the comics was a albino African girl they cast of white girl in the film who has cannonballs power because they had a new Mutant movie coming up soon and they didn't want them the debut Cannonball and that movie for some reason which makes zero sense..

The actress playing Warhead does a decent job and gets over with the audience so of course you will think when they announced the new Moon movie that this character may have you know maybe a cameo in it or at least be a member of the movie cuz I don't have to use the original team the director of the movie says no we're only using the original team because I'm a fan of the original team I love original team and all this extra nonsense.. then he proceeds to cast two white Hispanics as a African Brazilian and black Puerto Rican respectively and a actress with little to no acting experience who is 75% White and 25%indigenous at best as Native American whose character is supposed to be one of the leads in the movie.. and have the Asian female character in the movie have a cameo role at best. And none of these peoples bosses might not work this is not a good look probably should not do this. My note excellent job keep it up..

The fox X-Men movies with exception of Deadpool will continue to fail until they get one or two directors and their who's not a white supremacist and a actual boss or boss's to hold them accountable for fanboyism and favoritism when it comes to creating those films..
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Online Beware Of Geek

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2017, 04:30:56 pm »
I think calling Negasonic Teenage Warhead an "albino African Girl" is a bit of a stretch, although there's no evidence either way.  All we know is that she was Genoshan (which, despite being off the African coast, has always been chock full of white folk) and a fan of Monster Magnet. :)

The rest of your points are pretty solid, tho.  I'm not sure if it's racism, or just locking onto the franchise cash cows, tho. 

Offline 4sake

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Re: Have Comics Creators like Coates, Lost Touch With Storytelling Convention?
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2017, 05:18:51 pm »
I think calling Negasonic Teenage Warhead an "albino African Girl" is a bit of a stretch, although there's no evidence either way.  All we know is that she was Genoshan (which, despite being off the African coast, has always been chock full of white folk) and a fan of Monster Magnet. :)

The rest of your points are pretty solid, tho.  I'm not sure if it's racism, or just locking onto the franchise cash cows, tho. 

From a common-sense standpoint she is from an African nation and her hair in her first appearance look to be locs, so I personally say more likely and not she was supposed to be a African girl.. now this is X-Men for the logic flies against the wall.. such as a few years ago they did an X-Men video game I think it was X-Men Destiny and the had three characters you can play as one of these characters was from Georgia the state that I'm from and live in and the town that the character was from was from a city in Georgia that's population if I remember correctly is 60% African American but somehow even in that setting the character was a white guy...

And also personally I've never ever heard of a white dude being named Tyrone or Jerome before in my life in real life or fiction that is until I read an x books. Where they had random white guys who were henchmen to the big bad with those names..

I could name mother is amples but that's more than enough LOL..

To me is no way is not racism.. he just way too many examples And  be blunt what wolverine it was a self-fulfilling prophecy we focus on Wolverine because he's most popular and sales more and let's focus on Wolverine because he sells more and his popular.. they could have put Wolverine in the background starting in the second or third movie in the first franchise and the franchise still would have been successful..

Magneto is a cash cow but but other than a few parts here and there some of which are sayings that don't even make the final cut of the movie they do a bad job of showing why anyone with some sense would want to follow him.. he himself is continuously badass for the most part but all his team members or followers end up eating getting killed and captured repeatedly..

Professor Xavier and Beast while important to the X-Men myths re not cash cows and a not popular the only reason.. a Professor Xavier Beast Magneto Mystique Love Circle does not make mountains of money or is an interesting from a narrative perspective..

Mystique herself also isn't a cash cow.. Jennifer Lawrence is which is why casting her as Mystique was a very bad choice in the first place when they should have passed her as either Rogue or Jean Grey but that's the type of thing happened when you have the people in charge that they do..
Also imo Lawrence does a terrible job as Mystique when it comes to convene the most interesting aspects of the character..

And of course the most glaring error is Fox continuous casting of either non-african actors of characters who are black or African, continuously casting either half or vast majority mixed/light skin actors for characters who are dark-skinned or our overall who look more white or white Hispanic or etc than the actual character that they're playing.. making minority characters race interchangeable with other races.. and the continuous narrative of having vast majority of the people of color scenes cut or killed or joining and suspending vast majority of the time is either villains or antagonist in the film only for them to be kill or written out the next one when they are sad and interviews or set your to join the X-Men in the next movie.. are written out of scenes for stupid reasons so they continue The Narrative of having six to seven white people with one black and brown face who usually played by a actress who is half black at best..

And if they honestly thought some of the actors that they Cash 4 really just that great of actors in these roles then they would actually have real balls are ovaries or what have you and cast some of these mixed people and Jean Grey or Mystique or Cyclops or Gambit ( who may be mix in the comics), or or any other role that they consider a lead role.. instead they continuously lighten up the people of color or changed their races and cast them and secondary roles at best But honestly most of them end up being glorified cameos & cut their scenes but that's just not a fox problem that's a Hollywood problem..

Bishop and Darwin are the only X-Men of color in those movies that I would say even come close to being cast at 90% accurately.. and they ended up dead quick as you saw them..
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 05:34:54 pm by 4sake »
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