Author Topic: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2  (Read 590 times)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2018, 01:20:53 pm »
Good question. From what I recall the first time I saw it, it was a good, exciting story. The FX were the best of any Trek show at that time (for a pilot episode), though Discovery is top notch now. The ENT crew also wasn't bad in the first episode but I felt they were made too bland afterwards. Even though I didn't like how they did first contact with the Klingons (before that some conjecture was that the first contact had been disastrous), it was still cool to see the event happen on screen.

I don't recall much about TNG's pilot now, though I did like the parts with Q, but it likely dragged. DS9's pilot started off great with the Borg invasion, but then it got bogged down as it went into Bajoran mysticism, but overall, a very solid pilot. Similar to DS9, VOY started off interesting (but not as good as DS9) but also got bogged down when they made it to the Caretaker. I also didn't care for the unimaginative take on the Caretaker, but I guess that was due to budget limits. With DISCO I thought the action and FX were put ahead of the story so they had overwrought characters, and Burnham especially was making decisions that were not going to make her go over well if your goal was to establish her as a main character you respected and could empathize with. I wish now they had showed that pilot midseason or something as a kind of flashback episode so we could finally learn all the particulars of why Burnham did what she did. At least we could juxtapose that the brutality of the Klingons from the previous DISCO episodes by that point to better justify her actions. With the other pilots, I think the lead characters were more sympathetic. Kirk had to sacrifice his best friend. Sisko had to make peace with his wife's passing. Janeway had to sacrifice getting home to protect an alien species she just met. I can't say Picard or Archer though were that sympathetic. Mainly because I don't remember much about the TNG pilot and I do think they made Archer into something of an entitled, biased asshole on purpose. Unfortunately, they rarely had it where Archer got called on his b.s. They made the mistake of justifying his biases far too much, by demonizing the Vulcans he had issues with.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2018, 01:40:49 pm »
Good question. From what I recall the first time I saw it, it was a good, exciting story. The FX were the best of any Trek show at that time (for a pilot episode), though Discovery is top notch now. The ENT crew also wasn't bad in the first episode but I felt they were made too bland afterwards. Even though I didn't like how they did first contact with the Klingons (before that some conjecture was that the first contact had been disastrous), it was still cool to see the event happen on screen.

I don't recall much about TNG's pilot now, though I did like the parts with Q, but it likely dragged. DS9's pilot started off great with the Borg invasion, but then it got bogged down as it went into Bajoran mysticism, but overall, a very solid pilot. Similar to DS9, VOY started off interesting (but not as good as DS9) but also got bogged down when they made it to the Caretaker. I also didn't care for the unimaginative take on the Caretaker, but I guess that was due to budget limits. With DISCO I thought the action and FX were put ahead of the story so they had overwrought characters, and Burnham especially was making decisions that were not going to make her go over well if your goal was to establish her as a main character you respected and could empathize with. I wish now they had showed that pilot midseason or something as a kind of flashback episode so we could finally learn all the particulars of why Burnham did what she did. At least we could juxtapose that the brutality of the Klingons from the previous DISCO episodes by that point to better justify her actions. With the other pilots, I think the lead characters were more sympathetic. Kirk had to sacrifice his best friend. Sisko had to make peace with his wife's passing. Janeway had to sacrifice getting home to protect an alien species she just met. I can't say Picard or Archer though were that sympathetic. Mainly because I don't remember much about the TNG pilot and I do think they made Archer into something of an entitled, biased asshole on purpose. Unfortunately, they rarely had it where Archer got called on his b.s. They made the mistake of justifying his biases far too much, by demonizing the Vulcans he had issues with.


I swear... I don't even remember the first episode nor the crew of 'Enterprise'.  :-[


I like your shorthand for  'Star Trek: Discovery' as 'DISCO'. :)

I'm going to use it for now on.


A lil' 'Star Trek: Voyager' trivia:
Didja know that before 'Star Trek: Voyager' was released, the show was so secretive and highly anticipated that even the press was not allowed a complementary look at the pilot episode?  All the press got was a series of promotional posters for their publications.

The press had to watch the show on the first air date as everyone else!  ;D

« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 06:46:40 am by Battle »

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2018, 03:34:57 pm »
Thanks Battle, but I can't take credit for that shorthand. They had the "DISCO" shirts in the show. I was trying to paste some pictures of it, but I'm not able to. CBS is also selling the shirts.






Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2018, 01:36:17 pm »
>>>Emperor

Just thought about somethin'...


You mentioned ENT.  I'm assuming you meant 'Enterprise'...?  completely forgot about that one.  :-[

'Enterprise' was the worst out of the entire series.   

Yes, 'ENT' is my shorthand for 'Enterprise'. I wasn't a fan of ENT until the third and fourth seasons. I did think the pilot was the best Trek pilot though.

I too liked "Broken Bow" EJ and agree it was my favorite pilot.  I think the setting, not as far in the future, occurring relatively shortly after "First Contact," my favorite ST film, created a bridge to the future that was somewhat novel for the series and intriguing to the imagination of the fans?

Loved the first episode of "Discovery" but really dislike that all subsequent episodes are pay T.V.!


Peace,

Mont
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 01:39:07 pm by Kimoyo »

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2018, 02:43:52 pm »
^
Brannon Braga, one of the ENT producers has said that they wanted to have the first season of ENT completely on Earth, but the studio nixed it. I think it would've set ENT apart even more. And I think it would've allowed us to go places we really haven't. We haven't seen that much Earth in Star Trek or the politics and bureaucracy of Starfleet, United Earth, or clarifying the whole United Earth Space Probe Agency thing, which ENT could've done. I wish Braga had been able to create the show they wanted to. I'm not going to say it would've been good-I think ENT often had a staleness or blandness to it in the earlier seasons-but it would've been more unique to the show.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2018, 03:16:25 pm »
The problem with 'Enterprise' was timing.  What significant was happening at the time.
I'm only giving a brief outline of events based on memory.

Star Trek: Voyager had ended its series.

Star Trek: Deep Space 9 had ended its series.

Enter: Star Trek: Enterprise.

The last Star Trek Trek Movie was: Star Trek: Nemesis.  Interesting drama but wasn't very exciting.



Can we agree that this television series is a legacy series?  Familiar enough that even the uninitiated recognizes its success even if they don't indulge in it?

'Enterprise' was a result of the all of the past Trek successes but the world was changing.  New and questionable world leaders were appointed (read:dubya).  Three video gaming consoles had established itself with new technology with a global audience no one had experience before.  The internet was reaching into rural areas of America never exposed to the global world.

I believe it is fair to say that 'Enterprise' and the Star Trek franchise needed a break because it simply didn't fit into a transitional  period.

I do remember some elements of 'Enterprise' but most of  it redundant and forgettable.  Nothing to write to a friend about.  :-\

I certainly remember how it ended so abruptly just as it was getting interesting but I'm glad it ended because it was becoming a bad habit and I was going through hell in my personal life.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 03:21:47 pm by Battle »

Offline Marvelous

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2018, 04:33:38 pm »
Battle, you check it out yet?


"2. IF YOU DON'T READ THE BOOK BUT ARE WILLING TO ARGUE ABOUT IT EITHER YOU ARE:
a) An idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.
b) A liar who is a fan who can't admit it to himself or others."

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2018, 04:47:28 pm »
At the time ENT was on (and after its cancellation) there was a lot of talk of Trek fatigue on some Trek message boards and railing at Braga and also Rick Berman, who oversaw all of Trek after Roddenberry. So yeah, there was a fatigue issue there, a lack of creative juices, but also I think studio interference with VOY and ENT. DS9 was mostly left alone because the suits were more concerned about VOY, which was a gift for the DS9 writers who had some flexibility to go into arc-based storytelling, etc.

I do think ENT was set in an interesting time period. We didn't know much about the pre-Federation Earth or how the Federation was formed. There was also the Earth-Romulan War they could've played with, but didn't do much with, and the show was canceled before they went there. Trek novels did cover the war, though I couldn't get into that two-book series. I did read some of the run-up books, The Good Men Do and Kobayashi Maru. I The Good Men Do better than Kobayashi Maru. Though my favorite ENT novel is Last Full Measure, which takes place during ENT Season 3.

Unfortunately for ENT it had a lot of competition that the other Treks didn't. It came out at a time when TV dramas/genre shows were very strong and ENT looked behind-the-times, with poorly developed characters. I couldn't stand ENT at first. It was nowhere near as exciting as 24, or when Battlestar Galatica came out, it blew ENT out of the water. Even the Stargate shows at the time were better than ENT. I don't think ENT ever figured out how to write for an ensemble show, though they did a good job with Trip the most. I did like the darker Archer from Season 3 though. And just when the show was getting better, and becoming a true prequel to TOS unfortunately it got canceled.

I don't know if it was intentional, or just my imagination, but I felt there were some parallels with Archer and George W. Both had chips on their shoulders over the treatment of their fathers. Both lived in the shadows of their fathers. But ENT didn't lean into that enough IMO. Season 3 had to have been inspired by 9/11 and there was the occasional episode that touched on a contemporary social issue, but not enough.

The premise for ENT was fine, IMO. Just the execution was off. It needed to be bolder, more gripping, and take more risks than it did. It also needed to be more diverse. It stuck out like a sore thumb on UPN, to have a network that was catering to black and/or diverse viewers but have a strongly white ENT cast. ENT would've been a good chance to cast a Latino/a actor/actress in the lead role to push that diversity forward. But ENT was a step backward in a lot of ways.

That being said, if I sat down and actually watched Seasons 1 and 2 of the show today I would likely view it more favorably. I couldn't stand VOY either for the most part but today I don't hate that show anymore.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 04:49:15 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2018, 05:45:32 pm »
Battle, you check it out yet?



No...  I haven't seen any of 'DISCO' at all.   Well, maybe a 2 minute YouTube clip here or there, having no idea what's going on, or who is who, why they are doing what they are doing...  nothing.  ;D

The clip functions as a little episode in and of itself.

Offline Battle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2018, 05:54:20 pm »
At the time ENT was on (and after its cancellation) there was a lot of talk of Trek fatigue on some Trek message boards and railing at Braga and also Rick Berman, who oversaw all of Trek after Roddenberry. So yeah, there was a fatigue issue there, a lack of creative juices, but also I think studio interference with VOY and ENT. DS9 was mostly left alone because the suits were more concerned about VOY, which was a gift for the DS9 writers who had some flexibility to go into arc-based storytelling, etc.

I do think ENT was set in an interesting time period. We didn't know much about the pre-Federation Earth or how the Federation was formed. There was also the Earth-Romulan War they could've played with, but didn't do much with, and the show was canceled before they went there. Trek novels did cover the war, though I couldn't get into that two-book series. I did read some of the run-up books, The Good Men Do and Kobayashi Maru. I The Good Men Do better than Kobayashi Maru. Though my favorite ENT novel is Last Full Measure, which takes place during ENT Season 3.

Unfortunately for ENT it had a lot of competition that the other Treks didn't. It came out at a time when TV dramas/genre shows were very strong and ENT looked behind-the-times, with poorly developed characters. I couldn't stand ENT at first. It was nowhere near as exciting as 24, or when Battlestar Galatica came out, it blew ENT out of the water. Even the Stargate shows at the time were better than ENT. I don't think ENT ever figured out how to write for an ensemble show, though they did a good job with Trip the most. I did like the darker Archer from Season 3 though. And just when the show was getting better, and becoming a true prequel to TOS unfortunately it got canceled.

I don't know if it was intentional, or just my imagination, but I felt there were some parallels with Archer and George W. Both had chips on their shoulders over the treatment of their fathers. Both lived in the shadows of their fathers. But ENT didn't lean into that enough IMO. Season 3 had to have been inspired by 9/11 and there was the occasional episode that touched on a contemporary social issue, but not enough.




Yeah... that sounds accurate.

Hated the Trip character because he resembled dubya and I couldn't stand dubya at the time.

Offline Marvelous

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2018, 08:08:00 pm »
Battle, you check it out yet?



No...  I haven't seen any of 'DISCO' at all.   Well, maybe a 2 minute YouTube clip here or there, having no idea what's going on, or who is who, why they are doing what they are doing...  nothing.  ;D

The clip functions as a little episode in and of itself.

I can send you a "dvd" if you like.   ;D


"2. IF YOU DON'T READ THE BOOK BUT ARE WILLING TO ARGUE ABOUT IT EITHER YOU ARE:
a) An idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.
b) A liar who is a fan who can't admit it to himself or others."

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2018, 05:54:14 am »
At the time ENT was on (and after its cancellation) there was a lot of talk of Trek fatigue on some Trek message boards and railing at Braga and also Rick Berman, who oversaw all of Trek after Roddenberry. So yeah, there was a fatigue issue there, a lack of creative juices, but also I think studio interference with VOY and ENT. DS9 was mostly left alone because the suits were more concerned about VOY, which was a gift for the DS9 writers who had some flexibility to go into arc-based storytelling, etc.

I do think ENT was set in an interesting time period. We didn't know much about the pre-Federation Earth or how the Federation was formed. There was also the Earth-Romulan War they could've played with, but didn't do much with, and the show was canceled before they went there. Trek novels did cover the war, though I couldn't get into that two-book series. I did read some of the run-up books, The Good Men Do and Kobayashi Maru. I The Good Men Do better than Kobayashi Maru. Though my favorite ENT novel is Last Full Measure, which takes place during ENT Season 3.

Unfortunately for ENT it had a lot of competition that the other Treks didn't. It came out at a time when TV dramas/genre shows were very strong and ENT looked behind-the-times, with poorly developed characters. I couldn't stand ENT at first. It was nowhere near as exciting as 24, or when Battlestar Galatica came out, it blew ENT out of the water. Even the Stargate shows at the time were better than ENT. I don't think ENT ever figured out how to write for an ensemble show, though they did a good job with Trip the most. I did like the darker Archer from Season 3 though. And just when the show was getting better, and becoming a true prequel to TOS unfortunately it got canceled.

I don't know if it was intentional, or just my imagination, but I felt there were some parallels with Archer and George W. Both had chips on their shoulders over the treatment of their fathers. Both lived in the shadows of their fathers. But ENT didn't lean into that enough IMO. Season 3 had to have been inspired by 9/11 and there was the occasional episode that touched on a contemporary social issue, but not enough.




Yeah... that sounds accurate.

Hated the Trip character because he resembled dubya and I couldn't stand dubya at the time.

Funny you say that because he actually played George W. in a brief scene in the Tom Cruise movie American Made.

I do think Trip was the best developed character on ENT, so killing him off in the series finale in a way made sense-even if the execution was bad-since in many respects ENT was his story. He got over some of his biases, he found love with T'Pol, he suffered the most personal loss during the Xindi incident, and he lost a daughter along the way. With the show ending, I guess it made sense to end his arc if it was going to be anyone.

Offline Marvelous

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Re: Star Trek Discovery: Season 2
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2018, 12:23:10 am »
Watched it a second time and it's just as good if not better.  Catching little things I didn't know first time around.


"2. IF YOU DON'T READ THE BOOK BUT ARE WILLING TO ARGUE ABOUT IT EITHER YOU ARE:
a) An idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.
b) A liar who is a fan who can't admit it to himself or others."