Author Topic: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS  (Read 5556 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« on: April 19, 2019, 03:53:38 pm »
So. This is a touchy subject to some, but I concur with first Christopher Priest [ the first man to proclaim that T'Challa is "the shrewdest man in the Marvel Universe" ] and Reginald Hudlin, here. I refer specifically to this quote by Priest:

"Where paths diverge between my vision of Panther and those previous is the character of TíChalla himself. I canít speak for Mr. McGregor (whom I do not know), but my impression was he saw Panther as the ultimate realization of human potential whose bravery was exemplified in his willingness to risk his life in the service of others.

I see TíChalla that way as well, but I defer to Stan Lee, whose bedrock for this character was he was a man who outsmarted Reed Richards and out-fought the Thing. "--CHRISTOPHER PRIEST

https://www.newsarama.com/25496-priest-looks-back-at-black-panther.html

The trick, though, is how can we imbue T'Challa with that premier intellect WITHOUT violating the canon and history and pinnacle expertise of the other megabrains in Marvel...including all 3 versions of Shuri, starting with RH's Shuri BP, the MCU's ultragenius teenage Shuri, and TurnCoates' "Ancient Future" Shuri [ which I actually like; and please my brethren...let us not speak of the vomitous Star Wars rip off cosmic feces that TurnCoates is writing, now ].

I think that the answer to both accenting how uniquely ultra-brilliant T'Challa himself [ not Maberry Era Wizard Killer T'Challa, not King of the Dead T'Challa, not T'Challa post HSH sippage, no, just pure unaugmented T'Challa ] actually is. I think that we as fans and writers are still bamboozled about T'Challa's ultramegagenius to some extent because imo the distinctions between T'Challa himself, peak human ability as a catchall category, the powers of The Black Panther, the KOTD, and Wizard Killer T'Challa are STILL NOT CLEARLY DEFINED.

Regarding specifically T'Challa's intelligence and how to distinguish him from everyone else? Well...remember the unfettered, boundary breaking, jaw dropping world changing genius of the Lamtuna and Godala [ miscalled Moors ] whom are the literal source and inspiration for The Renaissance and by extension The Academic Decathlon? T'Challa is the ultimate incarnation of that.

Which means? He's either smarter than, as smart as, or in the Top 3 intellects engaged in literally any human endeavor. This allows Tony to still be the best blaster maker, T'Challa is just a superior all around WEAPONS maker because T'Challa himself possesses vastly superior experience and training in every form of weapon Earth has ever seen, conjured or imagined...as well as a similar advantage regarding every weapon that every EarthLING has ever seen, conjured or imagined.

He is actually better than both Pym and Reed in Biology, he simply doesn't let on that he is.

T'Challa would not be as good as Shuri in the areas of tech that MCU Shuri showed are her bailiwick, but all other areas of tech? T'Challa holds the edge. As Shuri matures? We could even split that. Some areas of tech T'Challa is superior to her, others he is inferior to her, the majority of the rest they are essentially evenly matched...but T'Challa still has the edge in SWIFTER UNDERSTANDING AND APPLICATION because he has the unanswerable edge of EXPERIENCE over Shuri.

As RH showed, T'Challa would cleanly outperform Doom in every category except for actual magic use...as T'Challa is overall superior to Reed Richards in the IQ department, whereas Doom is overall INFERIOR to Reed in the IQ department.

I think this kind of approach prevents T'Challa from being "overpowered" but at the same time stamps him with a uniquely formidable form of intellect

What do my fellow HEFfas think about T'Challa's intellect, and how it differs from the other Marvel Big Brains?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 04:46:58 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2019, 05:58:13 pm »
I like that Tchalla is smart, but I don't care who is the smartest. Tchalla is dangerous because he can combine intellect, fighting, cleverness, shrewdness, "street smart", and logic to defeat anybody given enough time and materials.

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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2019, 05:52:03 am »
I like that Tchalla is smart, but I don't care who is the smartest. Tchalla is dangerous because he can combine intellect, fighting, cleverness, shrewdness, "street smart", and logic to defeat anybody given enough time and materials.

I feel what you're saying above, Cville, but there's some interesting questions within the subcategories of each of the above that help to clarify the issue [ at least imo ] and in and of themselves pose other questions which...if we answer them...do indeed have a significant impact on how we define intelligence and on what criteria we decide who is or isn't the MOST intelligent.

For instance, thousands of years ago? Our Afrikan ancestors determined that there were at least 15 forms of intelligences. Literally even today, now, Europeans have only uncovered 11.  9 of the 11 are the following:



the remaining two are FLUID AND CRYSTALLIZED INTELLIGENCE, here: https://study.com/academy/lesson/two-types-of-intelligence-fluid-and-crystallized-intelligence.html

So using the Afrikan model which the European model above only partly reflects while skipping some very significant links...some of the Earth 616 big brains can have higher scores than other Big Brains in one or more of the Intelligences, while lesser scores in intelligence in one or more of the Big Brains in other Intelligences.  These differences directly impact the characters and determine not only character personality traits but also overall IQ's, I think. For instance, Spider Man may be quicker than T'Challa, but T'Challa has a higher Kinesthetic Intelligence than does Spidey. So T'Challa is a more skilled acrobat, dancer, surgeon, better marksman, etc than Spidey, even if Spidey is both quicker and more agile than T'Challa [ neither of which we know for sure is true; we know that if Spidey does have an edge in quickness and agility, it is a closely contested edge ]. And T'Challa could use his superior Fluid Intelligence to bridge the gap of quickness and agility between himself and Spidey and rapidly overcome Spidey with his vastly superior h2h skills, should the need arise.

What do all of you think?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 09:26:15 am by supreme illuminati »
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Offline Ture

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2019, 08:14:47 pm »
Good idea for a thread Supreme. The challenge of T'Challa's intellect stems from the lack of in comic book consistency and the scientific concepts and technological constructs he is credited with. Post Lee/Kirby's intro and some inventions and references to his intellect in Avengers and some other guest appearances there is not much to demonstrate T'Challa's genius. It is thus that we are left with little more than an allusion to such.

Black Panther's primary writers McGregor, Priest, Hudlin and Coates chose not focus on his scientific and technological prowess. It was Maberry, Liss, Hickman and Ewing who showcased such groundbreaking discoveries as Shadow Physics, Mutant Gene Suppression, energy gauntlets and an interstellar translocation device. Richards, Stark, Pym are often seen working on new tech and engaged in scientific research consistently. As such their prowess and inventions are used and/or mentioned through the Marvel universe.

The Black Panther has to be seen doing stuff. Richards, Stark, Pym and Doom all earned their super genius posts. How T'Challa could distinguish himself and stay within cannon while not artificially displacing the for mentioned geniuses would be to focus on the scientific breakthroughs, new technologies and mystical application achieved through vibranium.  It will be very satisfying to witness a Black Panther's renaissance in which he is consistently shown as a polymath, master martial artist, brilliant strategist, spiritual, mys tical adept and romantic lead in the pages of his own comic book.
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Offline Ezyo

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2019, 11:14:43 pm »
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2019, 10:44:08 am »
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.



I agree with so much of this post above, especially the first two paragraphs. I also think that T'Challa should have been singled out for his singular megagenius in that he propels Wakanda...already ahead of everyone else in the world...ahead another century ON TOP of their already peerless advances in every field.

In my fanfic, I point out that Wakanda is the only place on Earth that was not conquered by The Slave Engine that enslaved The Inhumans, and both remained free from Doctor Doom's version of same, PLUS T'Challa destroyed Doctor Doom's Slave Engine during the Emperor Doom saga. This feat is the single action that elevated T'Challa in Doom's eyes to a threat on par with or superior to Reed Richards to Doom himself. Shuri innovated by creating Reality Erg defenses that protect Wakanda from subjugation in alternate realities, which T'Challa further improved with Shadow Physics and Reality Particles...the branch of science that I believe that T'Challa would have innovated after his experience recreating the 616 via The Reality Infinity Gem...to ensure Wakanda remained unconquered in EVERY reality that didn't see Wakanda as an aggressive Galaxy controlling interstellar Empire of ignoble purpose.

However. Consider this, Ezyo: When you write this right here:

"Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth".--EZYO

Are you not acknowledging that by being a megagenius polymath of such proportions and achievement that said achievements propel T'Challa into the literal most gifted of each field of human intellect, and compounding this by stating that the result of such multitiered megagenius of T'Challa's is that he is the most ingenious person on Earth...that T'Challa is ALSO the SMARTEST person on Earth, by being amongst the most clever, the most inventive, the most original of intellects in every possible human endeavor?

The world record setting Decathlete is considered by almost every other athlete to be the greatest athlete in the world. Bar none.

Remember my Academic Decathlon example? Well...Following that line of reasoning? Then T'Challa being the most formidable megagenius polymath makes him the most formidable megagenius period. Bar none. T'Challa's crown is a collection of the most vaunted achievements, even if some would argue that he holds no single pinnacle achievement superior to all others in said crown [ like the Decathlete holds no single World Record superior to that of any of the Olympic specialists who compete in only a single event of the 10 events which Decathletes must masterfully compete in over a brutal 2 day span ].

Ingenious definition:

adjective
characterized by cleverness or originality of invention or construction:
an ingenious machine.
cleverly inventive or resourceful:
an ingenious press agent.
Obsolete .
intelligent; showing genius

Shrewd
shrewd
/SHro͞od/
adjective
1.
having or showing sharp powers of judgment; astute.
"she was shrewd enough to guess the motive behind his gesture"
synonyms:   astute, sharp-witted, sharp, acute, intelligent, clever, alert, canny, media-savvy, perceptive, perspicacious, observant, discriminating, sagacious, sage, wise, far-seeing, far-sighted; More
2.
ARCHAIC

Also, in my opinion, being "smart" is not the same as being "clever", which is NOT the same as being "intelligent" and especially none of the foregoing is equivalent to being "wise".

"The main difference between smart and clever is that clever connotes a sense of originality or ingenuity whereas smart doesn't. Smart is also used to describe the physical appearance of an individual. Smart refers to being intelligent and having the ability to apply the intelligence to practical situations."

"As for intelligence, it is the development of any progressive tendency (Carl Sagan) and is a general ability that can be broken down into categories. There is physical intelligence that sports people possess; inter-personal intelligence which is the ability to develop networks of relations; intra-personal intelligence which is the ability to tune ones emotions and communicate intra-personally; analytical intelligence which is often measured using the IQ instrument...."

I'm saying the above because noting T'Challa's shrewdness, his ingenuity, doesn't actually refer to his INTELLIGENCE...but rather other combined facets of T'Challa's personality type, personal inclinations, life experience which funnel his megagenius into unique and specific expressions.

Now here's where the specific ranking of such peak intellects is important, and which I think we should all consider regarding the supergenius and megagenius intellects...and that is: at what areas of intellect are the supergeniuses NOT supergenius at? In which areas would T'Challa remain a supergenius whereas all others in the super or megagenius Intellect areas would not? Let's look at the 9 Intelligences again:




Looking at the graphic above, there literally isn't a single area that T'Challa's supergenius falls off at. If there is one major exception to this statement of mine in the minds of most of those who don't know who and what T'Challa is? That exception would be The Intrapersonal Intellgience.

 T'Challa's been outraged by not being properly presented with the feats reflective of his Intrapersonal Intelligence since his inception. T'Challa most definitely has the ability to "see" the components of say any poisons or bacteria or virus that enters his system, and consciously eradicate and/or alter same at a cellular level. This is literally an extension of Tibetan monks' ability to control the functions of the so-called "autonervous system". T'Challa most definitely can control his heartbeat, blood pressure, regularity and depth/shallowness of breath, etc in ways that would make the Bene Gesserit of the DUNE series have shiver me timbers envygasms. Therefore this right here...written by the otherwise magnificent David Liss...should NEVER have happened:






T'Challa's mind [ without any tech or assistance whatsoever ] would be very difficult to pierce by even the most potent telepaths, and it would be extremely dangerous for them to make the attempt. Psionically or spiritually dominating T'Challa would be out of the question for any but the more powerful cosmic beings...and even they would be very hard pressed to do such a thing, as Wakanda would have dedicated much of her more than one million years of existence to ensuring that the likes of Phoenix, Star Brand, the Kree, Odin, The Mad Celestials, The Eternals, etc could not overrun them. Therefore, The Shadow King has no chance of overcoming T'Challa as he was credited with doing in WORLDS APART by Yost [ liked the story, btw ]...and that's why I specifically targeted that occurrence in my fanfic and explained it away.

Consider Reed Richards. There is no question that Reed is a supergenius in the nonphysical intellectual areas...but not even in all of those areas is he a supergenius [ Reed doesn't get along with people in general especially well, so he's not a supergenius in the area of intellect that is referred to by Europeans as INTERPERSONAL INTELLIGENCE. In fact? Reed would "only" be slightly above average there ]. Whereas Reed would be a formidable musician because of his mastery of math and logic would allow him to put on incredible displays of music. But moreso along the lines of European classical music, operas, etc. His jazz would be technically correct and good, but lack that oomph that comes from seamless merging of jazz magic with purely emotional connection and expression.

Consider Tony Starks. While Starks is not as vaunted in intellect in the sheer Logic and Mathematical Intelligence department which is Reed Richards' pinnacle expression of Intelligence and probably the area that he outshines all others in [ if you follow the dominant 616 canon ], Starks mops the floor with Reed via INTERPERSONAL INTELLIGENCE. And Starks CAN FIGHT PRETTY DARN WELL, clearly better than the average person, and better than most SHIELD trained agents, etc. Therefore Starks has a higher overall KINESTHETIC INTELLIGENCE than Reed Richards. Also, Starks would be better at jazz than Reed, but at best only equal to Reed in classical music. Both would be good with Natural Intelligence but neither could see T'Challa, and I don't think that such is open to serious debate.

Even though Starks and Reed are probably equal in the area of being extremely gifted surgeons, is there a true argument that either are better surgeons than Doctor Strange? I would say there is an excellent argument for any of the three as pinnacle surgeons...although, most would lean toward Doctor Strange because being a surgeon is specifically his "thing".

Do you see where I'm going with this? I think that specifically breaking down the components of each of the Intelligences, and giving real world plus 'comic book" examples of the operations of each Intelligence, allows us to better define how each of the big brains on 616 Earth would perform in each area.  This in turn would allow us to more clearly determine which of the Big Brains is actually the most "Intelligent" and why...and/or what factors outside of what is narrowly referred to as "The Intelligences" actually tip the scales in favor of or against such and such character, and why.

If we do this? I think that the end result will pretty clearly show that T'Challa holds the edge over everyone.

If I understand RH right? There is an even more potent argument that could say that T'Challa would, should and does outshine them all...because RH shrewdly propelled Wakanda ITSELF some 1000 years ahead of the rest of the world IN EVERYTHING, and cast The Black Panther as the pinnacle expression of all that is desirable in the Wakandan culture? It stands to reason that The Black Panthers are all the recipients of the most advanced, most rigorous, most unforgiving training in every field of human endeavor that THE LEADING CIVILIZATION OF EARTH CAN OFFER, and therefore? T'Challa is literally superior to almost everyone or literally everyone inside and outside of Wakanda...IN EVERYTHING. <--It's this position that Hudlin runs with, and he has a very good argument to draw from...especially since history proves that in more ancient times, Afrikan civilizations held precisely this kind of lead over everyone else in reality.

However, I think that...as I said before...T'Challa's most humongous advantage is that he is the most BALANCED megagenius on 616 Earth. Not only is he the pinnacle intellect or amongst the Top 3 pinnacle intellects in everything. Not only is he the shrewdest man on Earth [...which doesn't make him the shrewdest PERSON on Earth, btw...], T'Challa is unendingly clever and without question the WISEST of the megageniuses on Earth.

These last 3? Shrewdness. Cleverness. Wisdom from the spirituality and culture and soul of Wakanda. Are his aces in the hole which imo prevents him from falling off the precipices that lured and sent plummeting over their ledges the likes of Doom, Pym, Reed, Starks, and every other intellect except Lunella [ even Ri Ri was deeply struck to her core by the senseless driveby murder of her father; an incident which resonated in particular with T'Challa because of how T'Challa lost T'Chaka ]. In particular, the wisdom imparted to him by both Wakanda the civilization itself via its peerless education system AND the wisdom imparted literally to his soul by his spiritual connection to past Panthers...long before he became KOTD...prevents him from the kinds of excesses we see the other megageniuses fall prey to.

Imo Priest's story of T'Challa's descent into temporary near madness is still canon because T'Challa's descent isn't a fault of personal intelligence or lack of inner resources, but rather the result of the progressive debilitation caused by the inoperable brain aneurysm that T'Challa suffered by being struck a hundred and more times by the Iron Fist in at full power, swung to his skull by the fists of Danny Rand as Iron Fist...and which in my fanfic T'Challa cures with Shadow Physics.

What do yall think?
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2019, 10:52:27 am »
Good idea for a thread Supreme. The challenge of T'Challa's intellect stems from the lack of in comic book consistency and the scientific concepts and technological constructs he is credited with. Post Lee/Kirby's intro and some inventions and references to his intellect in Avengers and some other guest appearances there is not much to demonstrate T'Challa's genius. It is thus that we are left with little more than an allusion to such.

Black Panther's primary writers McGregor, Priest, Hudlin and Coates chose not focus on his scientific and technological prowess. It was Maberry, Liss, Hickman and Ewing who showcased such groundbreaking discoveries as Shadow Physics, Mutant Gene Suppression, energy gauntlets and an interstellar translocation device. Richards, Stark, Pym are often seen working on new tech and engaged in scientific research consistently. As such their prowess and inventions are used and/or mentioned through the Marvel universe.

The Black Panther has to be seen doing stuff. Richards, Stark, Pym and Doom all earned their super genius posts. How T'Challa could distinguish himself and stay within cannon while not artificially displacing the for mentioned geniuses would be to focus on the scientific breakthroughs, new technologies and mystical application achieved through vibranium.  It will be very satisfying to witness a Black Panther's renaissance in which he is consistently shown as a polymath, master martial artist, brilliant strategist, spiritual, mys tical adept and romantic lead in the pages of his own comic book.


Outstanding points as usual, brother TURE . I really enjoyed this post. I will return later with a response. Thank you for chiming in on this topic which I think is very important, but deeply underserved due to a lack of understanding about T'Challa as a character.

For example, I agree with Priest regarding the fact that T'Challa doesn't really need to megatech it out to be extremely formidable. I think that an approach which would be more rewarding for the reader and more challenging and fun for the writer is showing that T'Challa already had most everyone beat with what most readers and heroes consider to be T'Challa's "standard" gear.  T'Challa himself has all kinds of shrewdness, skills, abilities, and extraordinary prep that he already has ready to go that neither friend nor foe are aware of him having...until it becomes necessary for him to show his hand. That's why in my fanfic I showed T'Challa handling Saralynth the Cruel without need for anything other than what he already had on him, or could call to him at will.

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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2019, 06:39:46 am »
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.


Hudlin's change made it trickier for a reason that is often overlook.  He changed T'Challa's starting point.  Now, his intellect is the product of the best educational system and resources on earth (and even in some places, beyond earth), rather than being self-taught, seeking education in real world options.   Compare that to Dr. Doom who lived as a nomad, had no real formal education, no resources, no good teachers.  He's completely self-taught.  For Doom to end up in the same league as T'Challa (not even having to ahead of T'challa), means he's actually might be smarter.  How far would Doom be if he had T'Challa's upbringing?

BTW, at least one of Marvel's writers of the Fantastic Four says Doom is smarter than Reed.  Marvel villains are supposed to be ahead of the heroes.  (It's his arrogance that undoes him, not Reed's superior intellect.)

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2019, 11:09:10 am »
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.


Hudlin's change made it trickier for a reason that is often overlook.  He changed T'Challa's starting point.  Now, his intellect is the product of the best educational system and resources on earth (and even in some places, beyond earth), rather than being self-taught, seeking education in real world options.   Compare that to Dr. Doom who lived as a nomad, had no real formal education, no resources, no good teachers.  He's completely self-taught.  For Doom to end up in the same league as T'Challa (not even having to ahead of T'challa), means he's actually might be smarter.  How far would Doom be if he had T'Challa's upbringing?

BTW, at least one of Marvel's writers of the Fantastic Four says Doom is smarter than Reed.  Marvel villains are supposed to be ahead of the heroes.  (It's his arrogance that undoes him, not Reed's superior intellect.)


Another very good point, brother KIP LEWIS. I've thought about this particular argument back when R to the H was writing BP, and while I think it's a understandable notion that many have regarding Doom being as smart as or smarter than both T'Challa and Reed...I think it's more of a reflection of both their overall lack of understanding of the various "Intelligences", the a result of centuries of bias from the European cultural perspective regarding the more prized and favored forms of intelligence, and most importantly the misunderstanding that schooling actually enhances one's intelligence [ it doesn't ] rather than provides skills, information and drills that SHARPEN the tools of one's intelligence viapractice. In the same way that certain workouts...when combined with the natural gifts of the body...result in overall superior fitness for anyone, but the specific physical gifts of each person is what determines where in the continuum of fitness one resides. Due to their inherited DNA and factors like healthy lifestyles? One person could become superfit from a workout that provides another person with "mere" fitness.

This is what I believe seprates T'Challa from Doom. Doom reaching the heights that he reached WITHOUT the peerless education that T'Challa received is actually a reflection of how much greater Wakanda is than any other civilization...as RH intended...rather than the result of actual collective superior intelligence by Doom.

If we review "only" 9 of the Intelligences that Europeans prize [ again, our ancestors believed there were at least 15 of what in this area would be called "Intelligences" from the Euro perspective ], we can see that Doom's primary Intelligence is Logical Mathematical. Like all the pinnacle supergeniuses, he ranks at genius level...less than supergenius, but still formdiable... in several other Intelligences. And this is where he falls to T'Challa's comprehensive supergenius.



T'Challa is a supergenius in every area. His intelligence doesn't fall off, because he was BORN a supergenius in every area. Whereas other supergeniuses like Shuri, Doom, Starks, Reed, ARE NOT supergeniuses in every area. They're supergeniuses in one or at most several areas, and geniuses in most of the others.

 Doom? Very clearly IS NOT a "Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence" supergenius. T'Challa, however, IS such a Super Genius. Thinking Spatially? T'Challa's Interpersonal Genius is such that he was able to develop his own keen senses to the level that it is on par with the likes of Wolverine [ and even probably superior to Wolverine in the area of sight ]...which T'Challa also uses as an expression of the interconnecting Intelligence unifying Intrapersonal and Spatial Intelligence. Because surely T'Challa's clearly superior senses would allow T'Challa to perceive the world in sharply and vastly greater detail than Doom himself could hope to achieve, and that would in turn yield information to school and groom his Intelligence in ways that Doom cannot equal, which results in T'Challa outperforming Doom in both Intrapersonal AND Spatial Intelligence. Some may say that Doom's study of Magic gives him a unique Intrapersonal Intelligence which is superior to that which T'Challa has. I disagree, because it's clear that Doom learned magic from studying tomes, etc. which in and of itself is a formidable feat.

However, not only did T'Challa prove himself capable of doing the same under Maberry's pen, T'Challa is part of the lineage of Panthers so he is literally living in a continuum wherein magic, tech, ka and the vicissitudes of the flesh and spirit are expressed in a unique gestalt. T'Challa lives a reality that Doom has to learn via magic theorems. To make my point clear regarding the difference here? Doom studies the Pythagorean Theorem. T'Challa? Created mathematics AND the pyramids whose engineers Pythagoras plagiarized and coopted the credit from by stealing their formula and placing his name upon it.

 I don't think there would be much resistance to the notion that T'Challa is a supergenius in Music. Even Europeans pretty much acknowledge the universal affinity that we Afrikans have with Music. However, that single category alone is much more comprehensive and multifaceted in its teaching affect...both with and without a teacher. Music is known to enhance the qualities of each and every other Intelligence listed, and even several of those NOT listed [ like Spiritual Intelligence ]. And nobody does Music like we Afrikans. Natural Intelligence? There are maaaanny examples of Afrikans not only being the supreme hunters, naturalists, etc. but also being respectful enough of nature, sensitive enough to Natural Law and the equilibrium that must be maintained between all living things to NOT overhunt or overexploit into extinction animals, arable land, herbs, etc. And if there is any further doubt about this? Well, Wakandans emphatically displayed their Naturalist Intelligence via finding, recognizing and cultivating many exceptional herbs,  culminating in the garden of The Heart Shaped Herbs which have no peer on Earth. Game. Set. Match. Pinnacle examples of each of the other forms of Intelligence are also to be found in Wakanda, but I think that the above pretty much sets the tone and the table...so to speak... that ends this facet of the argument.

Let's use what Europeans call "Fluid Intelligence". The history of "Fluid Intelligence" from a Euro perspective is as follows:

"All the way back in 1963, a psychologist named Raymond Cattell noticed that there are two distinct forms of intelligence that he wanted to identify and study. The first type is what he called fluid intelligence.

Fluid intelligence is defined as the ability to solve new problems, use logic in new situations, and identify patterns.

Using a complicated subway system in a new city is a good example of how you might need to use fluid intelligence. The first time you use the subway, you have to figure out the names of the stops you need, which train will take you there, if you need to transfer in the middle, and so on. This type of intelligence is sort of like 'street smarts,' where you need to figure things out that moment and adapt to your situation.

One way you can think of fluid intelligence is that you'll use it slightly differently each time you're in a new situation, so it's flexible and adaptive - like water in its fluid form."

There is a much older...by several thousand years...and much more comprehensive expression of this same notion which we Afrikans called by many names over the millennia in our many languages, but which is still preserved in the Njia Uhuru Kipura of my family as "Akili Ya Ufahamu"...[ "The Mind of Understanding" ]. Akili ya Ufahamu is a critical form of Intelligence which we used in everything, including Hunting, Animal Husbandry, politics, social interactions, selecting a mate, the bridging operation to meditation and a rich inner life, etc.  as well as what's now called "street smarts". We show this same advanced "Fluid Intelligence" when doing things like freestyle rap, or any form of spontaneous application of Intelligence to resolve a problem or display a skill that generally advances us toward a perceived goal

Akili Ya Ufahamu combined with Hekima Ya Mwili [ "Wisdom of the Body", equivalent to what Europeans call "Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence" ] are the foundational Intelligences from my perspective, because it's from a combination of these two Intelligences that all other Intelligences can be reached and enhanced, but the converse isn't true.

Under Hickman's pen, T'Challa himself alluded to the difference between their Intelligence, their Wisdom, in this amazing exchange wherein T'Challa specifically tells Doom that Doom...even as GOD DOOM...simply lacks the vision to create the TRUE Wakanda...whereas with The Reality Gem...a power, let us not forget, is INFERIOR to that which GOD DOOM wielded...T'Challa recreated the TRUE WAKANDA AAAND resurrected much of the 616 MCU itself.



Now how does this apply to the issue of T'Challa and Doom's Intelligences and who is 'smarter"? The shortest simplest answers are:

1. In Doom's self education, he used the European model and advanced to the highest point he has ever been...God Doom of Battleworld...and saved all of what remained of Existence.

2. T'Challa? Used the Infinity Gauntlet and his KOTD powers...both combined in ways which both Doom and T'Challa knew to be significantly inferior to the might Doom used...to both tax Doom to the point which God Doom himself admitted that T'Challa succeeded at reducing Doom to merely physical wanton violence [ itself a feat that is nearly impossible to achieve ]


only for T'Challa to prove his superior collective overall Intelligence by flexing a combination of T'Challa's Intelligences with his Akili Ya Ufahamu aka Fluid Intelligence, his Ufumbuzi Wa Kibinafsi [ "Personal Solutions" ] aka Cleverness, Shrewdness [ having or showing sharp powers of judgement; astuteness...which can be seen as a subset of Logical Intelligence ] and Fluid Intelligence [ the emphasis on UNIQUE solutions via Fluid Intelligence, Cleverness and Shrewdness is something that is very prized and very emphasized in every walk of life in every stripe in Afrikan culture ]  by using INFERIOR powers and instruments to STILL OUTPERFORM AND OUTSMART DOOM...




and this is imo the supreme example of T'Challa's greater and superior overall Intelligence visavis Doom. Because T'Challa...when T'Challa IS NOT at his pinnacle expression of himself...is STILL ABLE TO OUTSMART AND OUTMANEUVER DOOM WHEN DOOM IS GOD DOOM, THE LITERALLY MOST POWERFUL AND MOST GIFTED, GREATEST VERSION OF DOOM THERE HAS BEEN THUS FAR.  This I believe not only comes from T'Challa's greater overall Intelligence, but also from the Afrikan cultural insistence upon Ufumbuzi wa Kinifasi: one not only has to know and be highly proficient with prior solutions to issues, one has to develop one's own unique solution to the same problem and/or interrelated problems.

I believe that RH's fictional Wakanda...unburdened by the yoke of colonialism...never yielded its vast cultural lead upon the world, and developed the means to cultivate the collective Intelligences of Wakandans to be the supreme intelligence of citizenry in human history, and The Black Panthers are the supreme supergeniuses of human history.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 11:28:01 am by supreme illuminati »
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Offline Ezyo

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2019, 11:54:11 am »
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.


Hudlin's change made it trickier for a reason that is often overlook.  He changed T'Challa's starting point.  Now, his intellect is the product of the best educational system and resources on earth (and even in some places, beyond earth), rather than being self-taught, seeking education in real world options.   Compare that to Dr. Doom who lived as a nomad, had no real formal education, no resources, no good teachers.  He's completely self-taught.  For Doom to end up in the same league as T'Challa (not even having to ahead of T'challa), means he's actually might be smarter.  How far would Doom be if he had T'Challa's upbringing?

BTW, at least one of Marvel's writers of the Fantastic Four says Doom is smarter than Reed.  Marvel villains are supposed to be ahead of the heroes.  (It's his arrogance that undoes him, not Reed's superior intellect.)

I understand the reason. Because also in the original versions of Lee/Kirby and Priest, Tchalla was sent to the outside world to get a larger exposure to in order to bring tust back to Wakanda on top of his Wakandan education.
Which is fine but I think of Wakanda is so advanced it better for to be from their own making and not needing outside influence.

That being said, again, if I were writing BP i would address this by showing that though he had access to all that information, being groomed since birth he had to learn a ton, and even with the educational system some of those methods also involved him coming up with things his own, on top of his walk about journey, to get exposure to the outside world meant he was on his own to come up with his own ideas and teach himself how to survive. Something that is done at a young age to establish self-sufficiency and relying on ones innate ability and creativity. After that's established then they receive the vast wealth that is Wakandan education and resources. Basically you prove that it is the man(or woman) who is great, not the resources at their disposal.

This again goes back to how Tchalla gets his major feat. He advances Wakanda further then anyone else in Wakandan history.  Doom may be "smarter" in a sense then Tchalla. But I would more so say different motivations then actually being more intelligent. Doom is arrogant because he came from nothing and made something. Tchalla had to prove he was more then his birthright, so the way they rule and do  more for his people and those around him. Hence the motivation that propels Wakanda to being only a century behind the other advanced races.

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2019, 05:39:59 pm »
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.


Hudlin's change made it trickier for a reason that is often overlook.  He changed T'Challa's starting point.  Now, his intellect is the product of the best educational system and resources on earth (and even in some places, beyond earth), rather than being self-taught, seeking education in real world options.   Compare that to Dr. Doom who lived as a nomad, had no real formal education, no resources, no good teachers.  He's completely self-taught.  For Doom to end up in the same league as T'Challa (not even having to ahead of T'challa), means he's actually might be smarter.  How far would Doom be if he had T'Challa's upbringing?

BTW, at least one of Marvel's writers of the Fantastic Four says Doom is smarter than Reed.  Marvel villains are supposed to be ahead of the heroes.  (It's his arrogance that undoes him, not Reed's superior intellect.)

I understand the reason. Because also in the original versions of Lee/Kirby and Priest, Tchalla was sent to the outside world to get a larger exposure to in order to bring tust back to Wakanda on top of his Wakandan education.
Which is fine but I think of Wakanda is so advanced it better for to be from their own making and not needing outside influence.

That being said, again, if I were writing BP i would address this by showing that though he had access to all that information, being groomed since birth he had to learn a ton, and even with the educational system some of those methods also involved him coming up with things his own, on top of his walk about journey, to get exposure to the outside world meant he was on his own to come up with his own ideas and teach himself how to survive. Something that is done at a young age to establish self-sufficiency and relying on ones innate ability and creativity. After that's established then they receive the vast wealth that is Wakandan education and resources. Basically you prove that it is the man(or woman) who is great, not the resources at their disposal.

This again goes back to how Tchalla gets his major feat. He advances Wakanda further then anyone else in Wakandan history.  Doom may be "smarter" in a sense then Tchalla. But I would more so say different motivations then actually being more intelligent. Doom is arrogant because he came from nothing and made something. Tchalla had to prove he was more then his birthright, so the way they rule and do  more for his people and those around him. Hence the motivation that propels Wakanda to being only a century behind the other advanced races.



I VERY VERY MUCH AGREE WITH THE ABOVE. So much so, that in my fanfiction years ago I wrote:

"... In fact, part of T'Challa's mission profile when he was a Prince and entertaining the Western European Powers with the farcical notion that they had any hope of providing T'Challa with an 'education' that would not have been derided and outperformed in every way humanly possible by our 6 year olds...from a hundred years ago...was to track and observe the particulars of strategically stashed Vibranium caches to ensure that they had piqued the interest of and/or ensnared their intended prey..."--D'CIGGS

https://archiveofourown.org/works/663070/chapters/1214001
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 04:53:02 am by supreme illuminati »
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2019, 04:54:59 am »
Regarding the different kinds of intelligence--I agree, is a much broader category than people tend to think--one does have to keep in mind that the statement of Marvel's smartest is a product of the 40s to 70s US culture, more than even Western Culture and the idea of that science is the end all and be all of life.  Scientists were always the ones in control in American fiction.  At that time, intelligence was pretty much limited to Scientific Smarts.  From Doc Savage to Lex Luthor--intelligence was pretty much defined as scientific knowledge.  Other forms of intelligence are given different names.  Look at Star Trek.  Spock is called the smart one--he's the science officer, but Kirk is a tactical genius.  He's extremely intelligent too, but he's never viewed as intelligent. 

I think it's like the word love.  In English we have one word for it; the Greeks have (i think) five different words for it, for example, one for sex and another for brotherly love.  For other kinds of intelligence, they used different descriptors.

Another way to look at it comparing it to strength.  Nobody ever calls a fast runner--a strong man, but he or she is strong.  It's just a different set of muscles than a weight lifter.

Offline Battle

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2019, 08:13:45 am »
Regarding the different kinds of intelligence--I agree, is a much broader category than people tend to think--one does have to keep in mind that the statement of Marvel's smartest is a product of the 40s to 70s US culture, more than even Western Culture and the idea of that science is the end all and be all of life.  Scientists were always the ones in control in American fiction.  At that time, intelligence was pretty much limited to Scientific Smarts.  From Doc Savage to Lex Luthor--intelligence was pretty much defined as scientific knowledge.  Other forms of intelligence are given different names.  Look at Star Trek.  Spock is called the smart one--he's the science officer, but Kirk is a tactical genius.  He's extremely intelligent too, but he's never viewed as intelligent. 


Kirk?   A tactical genius?  ???

Intelligence in Star Trek lore is evaluated by ideology & behavior.

For example, Captain Kirk is Human thus his intelligence & behavior is driven by curiosity and adaptability which would explain why Humans are so dominate in the Star Trek Universe.  I've heard Kirk described by many as reckless, sometimes unpredictable and most times prepared to meet opportunities.

Spock is much smarter than Kirk because he is Vulcan but would never make the decisions nor agree with Kirk if it isn't logical.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 01:02:32 pm by Battle »

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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2019, 07:39:30 pm »
Regarding the different kinds of intelligence--I agree, is a much broader category than people tend to think--one does have to keep in mind that the statement of Marvel's smartest is a product of the 40s to 70s US culture, more than even Western Culture and the idea of that science is the end all and be all of life.  Scientists were always the ones in control in American fiction.  At that time, intelligence was pretty much limited to Scientific Smarts.  From Doc Savage to Lex Luthor--intelligence was pretty much defined as scientific knowledge.  Other forms of intelligence are given different names.  Look at Star Trek.  Spock is called the smart one--he's the science officer, but Kirk is a tactical genius.  He's extremely intelligent too, but he's never viewed as intelligent. 


Kirk?   A tactical genius?  ???

Intelligence in Star Trek lore is evaluated by ideology & behavior.

For example, Captain Kirk is Human thus his intelligence & behavior is driven by curiosity and adaptability which would explain why Humans are so dominate in the Star Trek Universe.  I've heard Kirk described by many as reckless, sometimes unpredictable and most times prepared to meet opportunities.

Spock is much smarter than Kirk because he is Vulcan but would never make the decisions nor agree with Kirk if it isn't logical.


I actually DO think that Kirk is a tactical genius, although I see where you're coming from above, Brother Battle. Imo? Kirk displayed his tactical genius on NUMEROUS occasions. Kirk outstmarting and outmaneuvering Khan, Kirk is the only one to beat the Kobayashi Maru test, Kirk saw through many illusions and shams, tricks and manipulations attempted by many alien and human adversaries.  Imo Kirk is both a straight up genius AND a tactical genius. But that's just imo. Because in the old skool FASA role playing game? Kirk's intelligence was 84, the average human INT was 40, the average Starfleet Officer's INT was 71. So Kirk is clearly far smarter than the average human and smarter than the most Starfleet Officers, too. The max human INT was 100, so Kirk was up there.

Spock's INT was 102. Just to make the point.

But Kirk has Charisma of 94 and Luck of 98. Sooo...Kirk? Would be clearly the overall superior leader between himself and Spock. That's why, imo, Spock followed Kirk. Not that other way around.
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Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2019, 09:26:23 pm »
I actually DO think that Kirk is a tactical genius, although I see where you're coming from above, Brother Battle. Imo? Kirk displayed his tactical genius on NUMEROUS occasions. Kirk outstmarting and outmaneuvering Khan, Kirk is the only one to beat the Kobayashi Maru test, Kirk saw through many illusions and shams, tricks and manipulations attempted by many alien and human adversaries.  Imo Kirk is both a straight up genius AND a tactical genius. But that's just imo. Because in the old skool FASA role playing game? Kirk's intelligence was 84, the average human INT was 40, the average Starfleet Officer's INT was 71. So Kirk is clearly far smarter than the average human and smarter than the most Starfleet Officers, too. The max human INT was 100, so Kirk was up there.

Spock's INT was 102. Just to make the point.

But Kirk has Charisma of 94 and Luck of 98. Sooo...Kirk? Would be clearly the overall superior leader between himself and Spock. That's why, imo, Spock followed Kirk. Not that other way around.






O.K...

I was going by the dialogue from 'Star Trek: Into Darkness' where Kirk is getting chewed out by his superior officer.

Everything that officer was telling Kirk about himself was true.

--- but, if you're going by that metric you posted, I can't argue with that.  :-\

Regarding Vulcans?  I believe Vulcans are intellectually far superior than Humans (they discovered warp tech before Humans did), but what holds them back are decisions determined by logic.  I believe the reasoning behind Spock following Kirk is to understand his uncanny knack for being lucky... all the time.  :-\
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 09:35:01 pm by Battle »