LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS

[Battle]

>>>Supreme


If you're still interested in editing your previous post with the 'strike-outs', try changing the color of the effected text. 

Worked for me.

[CvilleWakandan]

I see where you're coming from in your post up there. That's reasonable. I see you, Cville!

On the other hand, this same Champion couldn't render The Thing fully unconscious in their limited rules boxing match,whereas T'Challa KO'd Ben Grimm. That alone could change Champion's mind. On top of that, T'Challa both tasked God Doom and recreated the 616. Another thing that should really make him purrty worthy. And T'Challa was directly involved in flipping Galactus into The Lifegiver.

Whaddya think. Maybe Champion changes his mind? Especially since T'Challa could summon and embody the COMBINED power and abilities of ALL the previous Panthers and conceivably achieve super-strength at around Thing or She Hulk level?

When did the boxing happen?

The bold has nothing to do with fighting which is what it seems the champion is most interested in from what little I've seen of him. He seems like Goku mixed with a professional wrestler. Tchallas' big brain feats are nice, but I don't think they'd interest him.

I'm still not convinced that he is actually compounding physical strength of each panther on top of each other. It was never clear as the story unfolded that he could do anything more than talk to the ancestors for advice.

[supreme illuminati]

>>>Supreme


If you're still interested in editing your previous post with the 'strike-outs', try changing the color of the effected text. 

Worked for me.

Tried it out, brutha. No love for me.

[supreme illuminati]

I see where you're coming from in your post up there. That's reasonable. I see you, Cville!

On the other hand, this same Champion couldn't render The Thing fully unconscious in their limited rules boxing match,whereas T'Challa KO'd Ben Grimm. That alone could change Champion's mind. On top of that, T'Challa both tasked God Doom and recreated the 616. Another thing that should really make him purrty worthy. And T'Challa was directly involved in flipping Galactus into The Lifegiver.

Whaddya think. Maybe Champion changes his mind? Especially since T'Challa could summon and embody the COMBINED power and abilities of ALL the previous Panthers and conceivably achieve super-strength at around Thing or She Hulk level?

When did the boxing happen?

The bold has nothing to do with fighting which is what it seems the champion is most interested in from what little I've seen of him. He seems like Goku mixed with a professional wrestler. Tchallas' big brain feats are nice, but I don't think they'd interest him.

I'm still not convinced that he is actually compounding physical strength of each panther on top of each other. It was never clear as the story unfolded that he could do anything more than talk to the ancestors for advice.

I don't think that Hickman envisioned T'Challa combining the physical strength of all previous Panthers into his [ T'Challa's ] being. I seem to remember Hickman very specifically mentioning the KOTD to be something on par with a wisdom upgrade. But. It's entirely possible and sensible that on rare occasions T'Challa could with extreme effort manifest the combined PHYSICAL STRENGTHS of all previous Panthers. Add that to T'Challa's already impressive strength equal to or superior to Ultimate Captain America's base strength of 2 to 5 tons and probably a 10 or 12 ton max. Remember, Ultimate Nick Fury said that Cap bould "bench press a Toyota"..and there are some heavy Toyotas out here. The average Toyota SUV weighs about 3,300 lbs. A Toyota Venza is 4,045 lbs...barely more than 2 tons. I think...based upon his feats..that Ultimate Cap's base strength is 5 tons, and that si our 616 BP's base strength too.

The issue of strength and who is stronger between Cap and T'Challa is another heated debate, with the overwhelming canon of Marvel showing that Cap is stronger. Even CJP...from the Stan Lee Era of Marvel...wholeheartedly thinks that Cap is stronger. But if we take the RH interpretation of Wakanda...which is the new base for Wakanda...then T'Challa is definitely the stronger of the two, or at the very least Cap's equal. WITHOUT NEED OF THE HSH FOR AMPLIFIED STRENGTH AS CAP NEEDS THE SSS FOR HIS AMPLIFIED STRENGTH. T'Challa and T'Chaka have their peak human strength due to the benign eugenics of Wakanda, practiced for over 1 million years.

This question of strength is of course vital because we needto know if T'Challa can generate the physical power to hurt The Champion with a punch. We already know that T'Challa can use his speed, agility, cunning, timing, and knowledge of leverage to sweep, trip, and/or throw The Champion.

T'Challa actually did go h2h with God Doom, remember? Even God Doom himself felt tasked and "reduced" to h2h vs T'Challa. And even though T'Challa lost that h2h battle...as was inevitable, nobody could beat God Doom head up and straight up, including The Champion who was one of the fallen slaughtered by a single Beyonder...T'Challa was the only one with the combined skills and intellect to actually TASK Doom and FORCE Doom to engage in such intense h2h that he...God Doom...could not spare his God Doom attention for any other purpose, thus allowing the ruse, the distraction, the deception to succeed at buying time for Reed to sever Doom's link to Molecule Man.

T'Challa vs The Thing happened in T'Challa's introduction in the FF back in the 1960's. The Champion's boxing thing happened during his introduction and challenging of multiple male superheros to a boxing match in New York city.

[supreme illuminati]

T'Challa vs The Thing happened in T'Challa's introduction in the FF back in the 1960's. The Champion's boxing thing happened during his introduction and challenging of multiple male superheros to a boxing match in New York city.

[CvilleWakandan]

There is no such thing as benign eugenics. It's still deciding who can and can't have children based or predetermined traits. If I thought WK practiced that, I immediately stop being a fan.

-Where is the evidence that they're benching multiple tons without any enhancement?

-Tchalla is wearing the IG fighting God Doom

-He sapped the Things strength before they started fighting.

[supreme illuminati]

There is no such thing as benign eugenics. It's still deciding who can and can't have children based or predetermined traits. If I thought WK practiced that, I immediately stop being a fan.

-Where is the evidence that they're benching multiple tons without any enhancement?

-TChalla is wearing the IG fighting God Doom

-He sapped the Things strength before they started fighting.

I don't mean "eugenics" in that sense. I mean the sense of purposefully developing the Wakandan national populace towards their maximum potential in all things good.

Yeah T'Challa IS wearing the IG fighting God Doom...and both of them already knew that the IG was far inferior to the power that God Doom wields. T'Challa did the most with the least amount of power against the most powerful being in existence. Very very impressive imo. T'Challa still compelled God Doom to fight h2h despite the vast vast vast advantage in power that God Doom held.


In the EJD miniseries, EJD made it clear...with RH's blessing, of course, as RH saw what EJD wrote before it hit the shelves...that T'Chaka was not enhanced when he defeated Captain America. Furthermore, Don McGregor in his PANTHER'S PREY miniseries which starred Solomon Prey as the adversary, delved into the properties of the HSH and specified that T'Challa's abilities were linked to a spiritual enhancement and link forged by HSH. Don also specified also that the HSH impacted the Kinesthetic Sense of T'Challa or anyone who imbibed the HSH. But Don McGregor also specified that the connection that T'Challa has with panthers, his intuition, his inner strengths and perceptiveness, were things that the techs didn't have access to and couldn't explain. This base that Don McGregor gave us was modernized into the interpretations that RH rocks and bang...there ya are.

[CvilleWakandan]

Don McGregor also has Tchalla get beaten up by normal humans. Which means at best he was slightly above Olympic levels?

I don't recognize the initials EJD?

[Battle]

Don McGregor also has Tchalla get beaten up by normal humans. Which means at best he was slightly above Olympic levels?

"There are no bad characters. Just bad writers." - John Romita Sr.

[supreme illuminati]

Don McGregor also has Tchalla get beaten up by normal humans. Which means at best he was slightly above Olympic levels?

"There are no bad characters. Just bad writers." - John Romita Sr.

I cited that very thing when vehemently disagreeing with the ways in which T'Challa has been portrayed pre-Peter B. Gillis in 1988



and of course the real deal dopeness of CJP







Man, I saw how T'Challa was beat up by a TEENAGE GANG, and that had me drop the whole series until Peter B. Gillis came around. I oftentimes felt like Marvel wrote stories designed to personally disrespect me, and that's why I always approached stories with Black protagonists with a sense of trepidation. They had Luke Cage speaking English as if it was his 4th language...and he hated it. They had The Falcon so deeply ensconced in Suckaville that he could run for Suckaville City Council and probably win. Ororo? Was acting Whiter than her hair color. And T'Challa? Was KING of Suckaville. Everybody else? Was some garbage version of a White hero. BLACK Goliath. Etc. Wolverine? Was running around calling bruthas "blackie".

I remember that I chilled on a lot of comics, and was reading Spider-Man more heavily than anything else because it didn't smack me in the face with racist stuff.

And then...ancestors be praised...came Peter B. Gillis, a very short but promising feature of Black Panther in Marvel Knights with short stories told in it featuring BP, Daredevil, and other heroes whose books were cancelled at that time, and then came The Game Changer I in Priest's BP. With Game Changer II in RH BP. Honorable Mention David Liss. We've all been pretty much onboard ever since CJP.

[supreme illuminati]

Don McGregor also has Tchalla get beaten up by normal humans. Which means at best he was slightly above Olympic levels?

I don't recognize the initials EJD?

EJD is Eric Jerome Dickey



Even though this miniseries was controversial to some primarily because it indicated that T'Challa and Ororo as two underaged kids were having sex with each other [ an entirely normal and expected occurrence if we keep it 100, however controversial to various people it may be ], I really liked it.

[CvilleWakandan]

I found the issue. Based on the way Tchalla says it, he acknowledges that Tchaka is not stronger than Cap by saying he out maneuvered him.

Then after a little checking, it looks like 616 Cap is listed as lifting 800lbs with straining effort. Which isn't so strong that a skilled human couldn't win a fight.

Either way, I would say that is well below what The Champion would see as a challenge. Who is listed as being capable of lifting 100 tons.

[supreme illuminati]

I found the issue. Based on the way Tchalla says it, he acknowledges that Tchaka is not stronger than Cap by saying he out maneuvered him.

Then after a little checking, it looks like 616 Cap is listed as lifting 800lbs with straining effort. Which isn't so strong that a skilled human couldn't win a fight.

Either way, I would say that is well below what The Champion would see as a challenge. Who is listed as being capable of lifting 100 tons.

Have you read Reginald Hudlin's seminal run on BP? In his groundbreaking first 6 issues...WHO IS THE BLACK PANTHER...we have T'Chaka and Captain America square off [ this was later retconned into Azziri the Wise vs Cap ]. This is the sequence that had we long suffering BP fans standing up and cheering, while pissing off so many of the LCBRD:



That's not just outmaneuvering Cap. That is flat out whoopin Cap's butt.  T'Challa was pointing out that T'Chaka was unenhanced, whereas Steve Rogers IS enhanced. T'Challa was making the point that T'Chaka...born as he was, all natural...was better than Captain America AFTER Captain America was enhanced and trained to the pinnacle of U.S. military fighting efficiency, using every resource available in the USA.

Also, the utterly ridiculous stats regarding Cap bench pressing 800 pounds and Black Panther bench pressing about 750 or nearly 800 lbs. has been long out of date. I read those stats from THE OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE, more than 33 years ago. We know that Captain America AND T'Challa can vastly outperform those numbers, because modern sport Olympians have surpassed those numbers in the bench press...and both Captain America and T'Challa can effortlessly outperform every Olympian athlete of the modern games that has ever lived. In fact, we see from some 30 and more years ago that Captain America is WARMING UP with a bench press of 1100 pounds...that mark breaks the current Olympic bench press record



We also see T'Challa physically halting a charging elephant:



Just to be clear? AKAJE is NOT The Black Panther we see above; Akaje is The King of Dakenia, and a dishonorable person who poisoned his own brother then married his wife. https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Akaje_(Earth-616)

and 31 years ago, here is T'Challa outwrestling a 5 ton charging rhino:




and there's a picture from CJP BLACK PANTHER era where T'Challa at least at the age of 50 is literally lifting and BODY SLAMMING a 2 ton rhino so hard that he breaks its neck.

So I understand your point, but you're using outdated sources.

[Battle]

I found the issue. Based on the way Tchalla says it, he acknowledges that Tchaka is not stronger than Cap by saying he out maneuvered him.

Then after a little checking, it looks like 616 Cap is listed as lifting 800lbs with straining effort. Which isn't so strong that a skilled human couldn't win a fight.

Either way, I would say that is well below what The Champion would see as a challenge. Who is listed as being capable of lifting 100 tons.

Have you read Reginald Hudlin's seminal run on BP? In his groundbreaking first 6 issues...WHO IS THE BLACK PANTHER...we have T'Chaka and Captain America square off [ this was later retconned into Azziri the Wise vs Cap ]. This is the sequence that had we long suffering BP fans standing up and cheering, while pissing off so many of the LCBRD:



That's not just outmaneuvering Cap. That is flat out whoopin Cap's butt.  T'Challa was pointing out that T'Chaka was unenhanced, whereas Steve Rogers IS enhanced. T'Challa was making the point that T'Chaka...born as he was, all natural...was better than Captain America AFTER Captain America was enhanced and trained to the pinnacle of U.S. military fighting efficiency, using every resource available in the USA.

Yup!  

I'll add: the shade went even as far the Hollywood movie, I'm reading some of the commentary that when Killmonger was crowned King of Wakanda, the scene where he & the Wakandan Empire had planned to strike the Mystic Sanctums at New York, London & Hong Kong, dudes were saying that his plan would've failed.

I told them straight up, just like I wrote here at HEF, the battle would've been an outright slaughter. 

Dudes out there said Doctor Strange would've stopped the Wakandans at the Sanctums.

I told them,  did you forget that Wakandan warriors not only exist on the physical plane but in the spiritual realms as well. In the movie, it was clearly established that the Wakandans can speak directly to their ancestors for information, wisdom & guidance.  Their warrior strength in the spiritual realm, as far as numbers go, is much greater.

Someone here at HEF pulled out Thanos would've stopped the Wakandans.

I doubt that.  Thanos would've joined in Killmonger's quest for retribution.

[supreme illuminati]

I found the issue. Based on the way Tchalla says it, he acknowledges that Tchaka is not stronger than Cap by saying he out maneuvered him.

Then after a little checking, it looks like 616 Cap is listed as lifting 800lbs with straining effort. Which isn't so strong that a skilled human couldn't win a fight.

Either way, I would say that is well below what The Champion would see as a challenge. Who is listed as being capable of lifting 100 tons.

Have you read Reginald Hudlin's seminal run on BP? In his groundbreaking first 6 issues...WHO IS THE BLACK PANTHER...we have T'Chaka and Captain America square off [ this was later retconned into Azziri the Wise vs Cap ]. This is the sequence that had we long suffering BP fans standing up and cheering, while pissing off so many of the LCBRD:



That's not just outmaneuvering Cap. That is flat out whoopin Cap's butt.  T'Challa was pointing out that T'Chaka was unenhanced, whereas Steve Rogers IS enhanced. T'Challa was making the point that T'Chaka...born as he was, all natural...was better than Captain America AFTER Captain America was enhanced and trained to the pinnacle of U.S. military fighting efficiency, using every resource available in the USA.

Yup!  

I'll add: the shade went even as far the Hollywood movie, I'm reading some of the commentary that when Killmonger was crowned King of Wakanda, the scene where he & the Wakandan Empire had planned to strike the Mystic Sanctums at New York, London & Hong Kong, dudes were saying that his plan would've failed.

I told them straight up, just like I wrote here at HEF, the battle would've been an outright slaughter. 

Dudes out there said Doctor Strange would've stopped the Wakandans at the Sanctums.

I told them,  did you forget that Wakandan warriors not only exist on the physical plane but in the spiritual realms as well. In the movie, it was clearly established that the Wakandans can speak directly to their ancestors for information, wisdom & guidance.  Their warrior strength in the spiritual realm, as far as numbers go, is much greater.

Someone here at HEF pulled out Thanos would've stopped the Wakandans.

I doubt that.  Thanos would've joined in Killmonger's quest for retribution.

T'Challa faced down God Doom. The same God Doom that KILLED Doctor Strange and Thanos. EASILY.




T'Challa truly isn't scurred uh no Doctor Strange. And Wakanda? Is REALLY NOT scurred of Doctor Strange. The Marvel Zombies ate Doctor Strange off top. T'Challa survived unscathed until politics changed that narrative and made T'Challa a food source for Zombie Pym. And we all know that T'Challa would off-handedly slaughter Pym. Zombified or not. The Hatut Zeraze would slaughter Pym. No contest.

Remember how Batman had mystic shields protecting his Batcave? not even Dead Man could sneak up or even make it into The Batcave without Batman's foreknowledge and permission. T'Challa? is waaay smarter than Batman. And has the greatest civilization full of "low grade peak humans" [ what a concept ] working together for more than a million years at his back, and the pinnacle expressions of humanity in theform of a million years of Black Panthers at his literal spiritual beck and call; whose wisdom he can and will call upon. See this floating Panther here amongst the ancestors of T'Challa's?



We see from Hickman's array of Panthers that at least one Panther was a terrifyingly powerful Sorcerer [ not much of a stretch to assume that that Panther was ALSO the Sorcerer Supreme before The Ancient One; or even more fittingly and in keeping with Wakanda's secrecy and isolationist policies...was the TRUE Sorcerer Supreme but The Outworlders never knew it ]. Therefore T'Challa could literally call upon the memories and magicks of this specific Sorcerer Panther should he choose.

And even if that's against T'Challa's personal character traits to go magic to magic vs Strange? T'Challa? Would Shadow Physics and Reality Particles SMOKE Doctor Strange. Easy work.

Doctor Strange and nem all...The Sorcerers Supreme...got caught slippin by The Empirikul https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Empirikul_(Earth-616). Wakanda would neutralize the powers of magic used by her opponents, not only with her tech but also with her Mystic Vibranium. Wakanda..an entire civilization which has faced threats from Celestials, malevolent entities like Dormammu and greater, magicks from whole pantheons of malevolent gods, etc...is not worried bout no Doctor Strange. Wakanda...from 1,000,000 years ago...teamed up wit hthe likes of Star Brand, Young Odin, The Phoenix Force, Hulk, and Ghost Rider.

Wakanda would smoove dog walk Doctor Strange. Strange would need a whoooole looootta tech on his side, and the combined power of all The Avengers Active and Reserve roster, to even make it a fight. And they'd still lose. Wakanda...little Wakanda...can stand off the combined powers of all the countries in the world PLUS the 9 Realms. She has done similar feats before in her past...or at least we can assume that she virtually mandatorily had to do so. Having kicked the Kree off the planet, having been around long before The Inhumans, having interacted with pantheons like The Norse and Olympian Gods and every other Pantheon of Gods as they all have at some point cast their covetous eyes toward Afrika...or sought to dominate all of humanity, or embroil all of humanity in the aftermath of their Godly schemes. None of which would be allowed by Wakanda.