Author Topic: Revisiting DoomWar  (Read 12233 times)

Offline Emperorjones

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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2019, 09:00:41 pm »

Sooo...how would we feel if Shuri became BP? I'm cool with it...as long as it's not at Chadwick's expense. Fellow HEFfas...what say you?
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Offline Battle

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2019, 09:15:28 pm »

Sooo...how would we feel if Shuri became BP? I'm cool with it...as long as it's not at Chadwick's expense. Fellow HEFfas...what say you?





You know I'm cool with it, Supreme.  :D 

Offline Ture

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2019, 10:14:04 pm »


T'Challa hasn't been Black Panther long enough to start the legacy agenda.
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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2019, 02:56:01 am »
For comics, I do think T'Challa has a long-enough legacy for Shuri to take over and add to it while making her own, and Shuri as Black Panther hasn't been a bad thing in time's past. But for the film? No. And while I like Letitia Wright's take a lot, it works within the film. However, from what I've seen so far, her Shuri is not built to be Black Panther. If it was Okoye or Nakia, then I could better see it, but not the MCU Shuri who is far more of a jokester. If anything, I could see Shuri in Spider-Man 3 (they could've used her in Far From Home) or representing Wakanda in a Young Avengers movie. Or even if they did a Disney Plus show about the Dora Milaje.

One neat wrinkle I would like to see is that there is a
Spoiler (click to reveal)
new Black Panther that has been around in the 5 years between Infinity War and Endgame. With both T'Challa and Shuri dusted, it wouldn't have been Shuri anyway. And it appears that Okoye remained a general or maybe even the regent of Wakanda during that time. I'm assuming that Ramonda was the ruler, but you never know. I mean, M'Baku could be ruling Wakanda now.
There's a lot of neat ways to take this for Black Panther 2, without bringing back Killmonger or even Klaue. I would rather have Klaue back than Killmonger, since Klaue got shorted. That being said, I wasn't a fan of Andy Serkis's manic take. I wanted a more serious villain. But still, if they gave him his sound powers that would be neat to see.

Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2019, 05:38:12 am »

Sooo...how would we feel if Shuri became BP? I'm cool with it...as long as it's not at Chadwick's expense. Fellow HEFfas...what say you?

I could see it happening by the end of the third movie. Chadwick is 42, which means he'll probably be 47ish by the third. I could see him getting away from athletic action movies by then.
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2019, 06:36:23 am »


T'Challa hasn't been Black Panther long enough to start the legacy agenda.

Yeah, I'd rather see her get her own legacy.  I could even see her as a "second" BP at the same time, as long as she's not running around in the same costume doing the same things he does.  Make it unique.

However, the one except is this is if, Chadwick B., decides he's leaving the series, then she can be THE BP.  But only because he chooses to leave (Or can't continue for a personal reason).

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2019, 08:03:46 am »
I think Boseman could stick around, and Shuri still be the Black Panther. The Panther doesn't have to be the reigning monarch in the MCU, like we saw in Captain America: Civil War. For some reason, T'Challa can step down from BP, but still be king, and Shuri can be the new BP.

Offline Ture

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2019, 09:48:00 am »


What is this penchant with replacing T'Challa as Black Panther. We are only one movie in. He hasn't even matured as a live action cinematic character yet. Chadwick can play BP for another ten years since the costume is most concealing thus no worries for stunts. And as far as his comic book is concerned we haven't had proper representation in near three years. Give Shuri her own identity and power set. Breathe life into T'Challa, his supporting characters and villains and let the Black Panther franchise prosper.
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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2019, 10:17:40 am »
I'm not advocating replacing T'Challa with Shuri or anyone else at the moment, but was just following the drift of the conversation about the future, but also throwing in speculation about
Spoiler (click to reveal)
what happened in the interim between Infinity War and Endgame. I think it could be interesting to see T'Challa return to see that there is a new Black Panther and that he might have to fight to retain the title again.

We haven't had a proper representation of T'Challa in comics, I would say, since Hudlin and then some of Liss's run and perhaps just at the beginning of Hickman's relationship with the character. I'm fine with giving Shuri her own thing, however, the comics are precedent with her becoming the Black Panther, or a Black Panther. So far, I don't think the attempts in the comics to make her more distinct from T'Challa's Black Panther have worked, though I also feel that Marvel hasn't committed to doing so. Far as I know, she's had no other codename (could be wrong here since I stopped reading Coates's run and only read an issue or two of Okorafor's).

So far, we haven't seen even if the MCU can pull off doing a legacy/passing the mantle. Falcon will be the biggest test with that.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I don't consider Peter becoming Tony's heir basically since it's not like Peter has become the new Iron Man.
I wish that Iron Man 2 had had Rhodes take on the suit before becoming War Machine.

Offline Ture

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2019, 10:44:36 am »
Comics precedents are often ignored when it comes to films. T'Challa's motivation and relationship with Klaw removed; T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan people totally redirected. Even the fact that T'Challa built Falcon's wings has been obfuscated. Much of this and more has to be addressed and corrected in order  to firmly establish the Black Panther. No need redress Shuri at this point, we have more pressing concerns with the main character.
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Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2019, 11:11:26 am »
Comics precedents are often ignored when it comes to films. T'Challa's motivation and relationship with Klaw removed; T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan people totally redirected. Even the fact that T'Challa built Falcon's wings has been obfuscated. Much of this and more has to be addressed and corrected in order  to firmly establish the Black Panther. No need redress Shuri at this point, we have more pressing concerns with the main character.

"T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda."

All that was there.

"Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan"

They never did much to make a difference in the comics either


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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2019, 12:15:53 pm »
Comics precedents are often ignored when it comes to films. T'Challa's motivation and relationship with Klaw removed; T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan people totally redirected. Even the fact that T'Challa built Falcon's wings has been obfuscated. Much of this and more has to be addressed and corrected in order  to firmly establish the Black Panther. No need redress Shuri at this point, we have more pressing concerns with the main character.

Precedents are ignored sometimes, but I think saying 'often' is stretching it. Generally, most comic book films adhere to the basic or most important relationships or major things that shaped the characters from the comics. And I do think that we've seen over the years an attempt to give the fans what studios think they want with certain character/storyline moments. While at other times things are tweaked or have been changed. There is history and precedent for Shuri taking over Black Panther, and it wouldn't take much to start the online campaigning to get her in the role. Shuri becoming Black Panther was a major character/life shaping moment for her. Not as much for T'Challa, but it's there to explore in Shuri's future if they go there, and I'm sure there will be people speculating about it and pushing for it online.

I don't think that any of the things you list that need correction are probably going to be addressed. I think this 'stunted' (for lack of a better term) version of Panther is what Disney/Marvel wanted and what audiences worldwide shelled out tons of money to see and many still love. There's no financial incentive to do those things now, because it adds more exposition that might be 'needless' now that the cat's out of the bag. Falcon has been flying for a long-time now, and upping T'Challa's intellect and science acumen might be considered taking it away from Shuri, even though comics readers know that the reverse actually happened when it comes to the film. Same goes with his fighting skills. There has to be space for the Dora Milaje and Nakia and there roles would be lessened if the comics Panther was on the scene. They wouldn't be completely sidelined, but he would be taking more people down than he did in the movie faster and with less need of help. But that makes me think of the different continuities or 'realities' for various media. There's just BP movie fans and to them, this is the 'reality', whereas its different for fans of the comics, or fans of the older comics, or even who might have watched the Hudlin-era animated series.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 12:17:59 pm by Emperorjones »

Offline Ture

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2019, 03:48:10 pm »
Comics precedents are often ignored when it comes to films. T'Challa's motivation and relationship with Klaw removed; T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan people totally redirected. Even the fact that T'Challa built Falcon's wings has been obfuscated. Much of this and more has to be addressed and corrected in order  to firmly establish the Black Panther. No need redress Shuri at this point, we have more pressing concerns with the main character.

"T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda."

All that was there.

"Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan"

They never did much to make a difference in the comics either


I didn't say it wasn't there, just that it rode the bench. T'Challa's genius level intellect was sidelined when Shuri states that she can improve on the EMP beads he considers working just fine, not to mention she built the better panther suit and explained to him how it worked. Sidelined when T'Challa gave Ross to Shuri to save. Sidelined when the Avengers bought Vision to Wakanda, Shuri did the diagnosis and T'Challa just stood there and watched, Shuri even performed the complex procedure.

T'Challa's win/lost record states the facts. Pretty even fight with Winter Soldier though Cap got the better of their exchanges. Black Panther didn't look like he knew what to do to handle Giant man (as Spider-Man came up with the strategy to beat him). A non enhanced Hawkeye, did better than could have been expected. T'Challa is one and one with Killmonger. His err Shuri's tech took down way more attacking Wakandans than his martial arts did. The Black Panther was mauled by Outriders. The final nail in the coffin for T'Challa's martial prowess being sidelined comes when Nakia states Okoye is the greatest warrior Wakanda has.

Strategic and tactical proficiency were most certainly absent when T'Challa jeopardizes his entire country and its people rather setting the Avengers up on some distant private island he owns. Wakandan soldiers demonstrated no battle tactics, they just ran head first into an invading alien army with their energy shields deactivated; Wakanda had no orbiting defense satellites to destroy the Outrider's incoming transport vehicles. The final insult... what kind of energy screen does Wakanda have, that not only can an invading army push through it, they can always just run around behind it?

The Emperor mentioned a comic book precedent and I stated that precedents are often ignored. In the BP film they made it a point to state that Wakanda did nothing to help other Afrakans however in the comics there are precedents. T'Challa became a Harlem school teacher to serve the underprivileged; T'Challa offered freedom to a South African family under apartheid. The Black Panther secretly supported the people of Azania as the Panther Spirit declared war and began a killing spree. During the Trans Atlantic slave trade, Wakandans destroyed slave ships, bought, freed and trained captives... all precedents, all ignored. I say they made a difference.
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Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2019, 04:33:36 pm »
It's Shuris' job to do tech. The novel version of Hudlins first arc made a good observation. Tchalla can do most of the jobs better than anyone else, but as a leader, you have to let people do their job so as not to undermine them.

One and one vs Killmonger is better than his comic record. He was the only one who could fight Winter Soilder without his accessories. At the time Nakia thinks Tchalla is dead and Zhuri is considered WK greatest warrior during Priest run as he is the person you have to beat to become BP. When you're BP, I dont think they count you as just a warrior.

They do the same in SWaD.

I wouldn't say they made a difference, they were just involved.
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