Author Topic: Revisiting DoomWar  (Read 12234 times)


Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2019, 03:34:50 pm »
Only thing worth revisiting about Doomwar is the artwork and shadow physics. Though compared to Coates, it looks like a 10/10. lol

Maybe they can just use the name "Doomwar" when he gets to be a central villain, but ignore this story all together. 
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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2019, 03:36:05 pm »
I agree. I just skimmed the essay. I don't agree with the writer. The idea of Doom vs. T'Challa is a good idea, but I would like to see it better executed than what we got in DoomWar.

Offline CvilleWakandan

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2019, 03:40:55 pm »
I skimmed it too, from what I could tell, he just like that it was a big cast. He didn't go into the deeper implications of the story as you all did when it first came out years ago.
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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2019, 03:40:43 am »
A woman wrote the article. And I feel that sometimes the black nerd girls who are given these opportunities to write or voice their opinions on You Tube/social media sometimes have an issue with  T'Challa, which I'm assuming is rooted in black feminism or black feminist leanings. So having him take an L or being manhandled isn't a problem for them. Though this is unrelated, it reminds me of I want to say a Screen Junkies You Tube episode where the lone black woman on the panel felt very strongly against pairing T'Challa and Storm in a film. She said something like anyone but him, and that struck me as very strange. Why is he so disagreeable? Why is the idea of a black man and black woman so detestable for some, even some black people?

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2019, 04:37:14 am »
The article was basically the same to me as any other article in relation to Doom or Namor being propped up and riding BPs coattails. This was a very good example of how people don't Care for T'Challa or Wakanda but their own agenda, the way doomwar is critiqued you would think it was this amazing mini series that needs to be adapted. The writer also claimed that everyone especially T'Challa, acted in character. This is very far from the truth. From bast to T'Challa everyone took a backseat to Doom.

I don't care to see it adapted honestly, but if it was, then it would need to end very different then we saw in the comics with a solid beat down to Doom that ends with Vibranium claws in his chest. People keep pumping up Doom to be this awesome and amazing threat and forget he has shown up in 3 movies already and is not impressive by movie goers, only comic nerds care and they want to use BPs franchise and success as the launch pad of a stealth Doom solo. No thank you.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2019, 05:48:30 am »
The article was basically the same to me as any other article in relation to Doom or Namor being propped up and riding BPs coattails. This was a very good example of how people don't Care for T'Challa or Wakanda but their own agenda, the way doomwar is critiqued you would think it was this amazing mini series that needs to be adapted. The writer also claimed that everyone especially T'Challa, acted in character. This is very far from the truth. From bast to T'Challa everyone took a backseat to Doom.

I don't care to see it adapted honestly, but if it was, then it would need to end very different then we saw in the comics with a solid beat down to Doom that ends with Vibranium claws in his chest. People keep pumping up Doom to be this awesome and amazing threat and forget he has shown up in 3 movies already and is not impressive by movie goers, only comic nerds care and they want to use BPs franchise and success as the launch pad of a stealth Doom solo. No thank you.


Good points, and I liked what you said about Doom especially. I have to check myself, because while I do think Doom would be a good villain for a Black Panther 2 (instead of bringing back Killmonger), it's also I'm looking at it from Doom's reputation within comics (not his movie appearances). And within the comics, I'm personally not a big fan of Fantastic Four or Doom, though I give Doom his respects based on the history of the character and what it's meant to comics.

When it comes to the films, I personally didn't hate either depiction of Doom in the Tim Story or Josh Trank films. However, just based on those films, Doom isn't this great villain that automatically gets the masses excited. He's tied to two poorly received (which I think is unfair) films and one outright flop (which I don't think was as bad as the pile-on suggested, but it is what it is), so Doom being in a BP film isn't an automatic win.

That being said, I think Marvel and fans could spin Doom being in a BP  movie the same way I think they will whenever Marvel brings in the X-Men: seeing how the MCU will do the character (s), giving them a new lease on life. I think that will generate some excitement. If they do bring in Doom I want an ending more like you described than what we got in the comic. I don't want Panther on the sidelines and I want to see Doom beaten physically, scientifically, spiritually, mentally, and ideologically.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2019, 12:01:26 am »
Imo? Doomwar most definitely should not be part of the BP trilogy of films. Seriously.

Given the grand scope of MCU plans? Growing Doom...a single villain whom the F4 will vanquish in their trilogy of films...into a MCU level threat will be a huge step down from Thanos. Unless there is a plan to NOT have a single Big Bad for Phase 4 like Thanos was the ultimate Big Bad for Phase 3? Doomwar most definitely shouldn't happen in BP at all; not only because Doom himself hasn't been established as the truly formidable arch nemesis that he is, but frankly because Doom isn't sufficient enough of a threat to Wakanda to warrant Wakanda's full attention. Killmonger was different because of his legit claim to the throne of Wakanda and the loyalties of Wakandans. If not for this? T'Challa would not have dealt with inner conflict and turmoil, and therefore would never have lost to Killmonger. In fact? Killmonger would have never been able to breach the borders of Wakanda at all, as W'kabi and The Border Tribe are the Clan who brought Killmonger to The Golden City. Doom? Is a genuine threat to the F4, SHIELD, The Hulk, and many others..but Doom to Wakanda? Doom is clearly a megalomaniacal Colonizer and would be treated accordingly. Doom would be killed by Wakanda.

Doom should be part of The F4 series of movies, and Reed and T'Challa should be introduced via some kind of F4+Avengers mashup vs Big Bad Guy Who/Whatever. At this point? Maybe it could be revealed that T'Chaka knew Reed's or Sue Storm's father, or whatever. If somehow or other Doom DOES find himself part of BP 2? He shouldn't be the main focus. Maybe Doom should vanish from the movie after he uses the Vibranium he pilfers from Klaue's body to resurrect Klaue via use of Klaue's vibranium arm cannon, and transform Klaue into The Murderous Master of Sound. Maybe Doom would be part of the primary Phase 4 Big Bad Plan. Like how Hela was the main villain for most of Thor Ragnarok, but not the main villain of Phase 3 [ who was Thanos ].

Some quick MCU Wakanda thoughts:

The X-Men's MCU profile should bring in Magneto, and with this? We now have a very sensible, formidable and definitely fan favorite trio of villains whom we could/should bring to Wakanda: Klaue. Magneto. And Doom. I was inclined toward BOTH Dooms [ Krystoff and Victor ], thus setting up The Royal Family of Wakanda vs The Royal Family of Latveria... but I'm sure that Marvel will want a younger Doom and therefore Kyrstoff isn't on deck yet. But imo this trio should best be developed in the cartoon treatment of BP, not in the actual movie franchises of BP.

Namor should be Marvel's Aquaman, and as such? His intro movie and character development won't set him up as an antagonist of/for Wakanda. However, the shared histories and conflicts between Atlantis and Wakanda should be part of Namor's trilogy...if Namor truly does get a trilogy, as I expect that he will.

Ramonda must play a decisive, action packed role in the defeat of Wakanda's villains in all media platforms [ comics, cartoons and movies ]; imo she was criminally underused in BP 1 [ however much I really understand and approve of the need to develop Shuri, Nakia, and Okoye with T'Challa ].

I would actually prefer to see a blend of an approach which develops the BP specific Rogues' Gallery, ties BP to the larger MCU as a whole, launches BP mythos based properties in comics and in cartoons, AND plants seeds for other heroes [ and sheroes ] of color that will be stars of their own movies in Phase 4 in ways that we wouldn't see coming; in the way that we see with the White heroes of the MCU.

Imagine Ukumkani Wabafileyo...the Xhosa phrase from the Xhosa language of MCU Wakanda meaning "The King of the Dead", whose SHIELD Codename is MACABRE [ thus giving the nod to Don MacGregor and Gil Kane who created 616 Baron Macabre for BP's Rogues Gallery, while still giving the badly need Afrakan centered transformation and upgrade in power etc that is required for a premier foe of the BPs and/or Wakanda ]. This would tie Wakanda more into its magical heritage, could very clearly involve The Jabari [ as the lineage of the Ukumkani Wabafileyo has a legacy of being both a ally to and enemy of the Royals of the Tribes of Wakanda ] and could attract Chiwetel Ejiofor's Baron Mordo to Wakanda, thus providing a surprising MCU DOCTOR STRANGE tie in. The corruption of the current Ukumkani Wabafileyo could unveil Wakanda's long planted countermeasures, one of which provides the intro to and throughline for both Doctor Voodoo AND Blade to come into the MCU Phase 4 plans. The many mystical, human and animal threats of the Ukumkani Wabafileyo would definitely justify the need for the skills of Falcon, War Machine and Bucky The White Wolf, but that might not happen because we already have the Disney streaming platform launching the FALCON AND BUCKY franchise. In their absence? The Dora Milaje should shine...and I'd like to see The Hatut Zeraze [ "Izinja Zemfazwe" in Xhosa, "Dogs of War" ] introduced into the MCU and reintroduced in the 616 as the formidable fighting force they are. I think that the Dora should remain all female, whereas the Hatut Zeraze could and should be of both primary genders.

Vibranium would most definitely attract Magneto to Wakanda, and Storm would race to Afrika both to protect her mother's land of Kenya and to battle Magneto. We should embrace this reality as this spins out soooo many options for BP the Franchise to continue to grow in soooo many different ways and simultaneously with the successes of other franchises, without being harmed by or tied to the failure of said franchises [ should they fail ]. This would be very very interesting indeed, and would give us the opportunity to reconcile the T'Challa-Nakia-Storm thing. I very much favor a reconciliation which doesn't diminish any of the 3 main characters of this potential triangle. All 3 could be friends, while allowing Storm to develop and follow her own character story arc as the leading Black Afrikan female mutant which COULD lead to the throne of Wakanda. Nakia could be allowed to develop on her own as a character in a female James Bond+Jason Bourne kind of way; she could have arcs and miniseries in comics, cartoons and even both guest and feature in the MCU properties on Disney's streaming platform. In this way we show unity rather than disunity and powerfully develop all 3 characters without having fallen into the false and destructive dichotomy and either/or that White society tries to compel us into making,as if we can't support multiple Afrikan heroes at once in the same wholehearted way that we can support mostly White heroes like the entire Avengers and JLA rosters at the same time. We can and do love the ENTIRE Bat Family AND Spider-Verse at the SAME TIME, without any conflict or tension. Same thing should be done with Wakanda and our s/heroes of color.

Wakanda will also be involved in whatever unforeseen mayhem caused by the battles and villains of GotG 3 and The Eternals trilogy. I think that The Inhumans might rise in Phase 4, and if they do? Wakanda would be involved in that, too. But neither Maximus or Doom by themselves are sufficient threats to Wakanda to survive jousting with the homeland of The Black Panther. Courting conflict with Wakanda is courting death...and these brilliant villains are smart enough to see and accept this. "SEE WAKANDA AND DIE".

This is why Doomwar shouldn't happen in the MCU BP trilogy. In the MCU? Doomwar diminishes Wakanda.

However. Once TurnCoates is thrown off of BP? We DEFINITELY should have a REAL BP scribe revisit Doom and Doomwar in the 616 and have T'Challa finally score that decisive whoop ass victory over Doom and from that point forward change the tone of their interactions. T'Challa should be seen as having a clear advantage over Doom in all their clashes henceforth.

EDIT; I ACTUALLY HAVE SOMETHING POSITIVE TO SAY ABOUT TURNCOATES' INTERGALACTIC WAKANDA THING. COATES TRANSLATES T'CHALLA'S NAME, AND I ACTUALLY LOVE IT. ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD DO AS T'CHALLA'S MAIN WRITER [ WERE I EVER GIVEN THE CHANCE ] AND IN MY FANFIC WAS GIVE T'CHALLA A FAMILY NAME; A SURNAME. WHICH I WOULD INSIST BE PERMANENTLY INTEGRATED INTO THE CHARACTER'S BACKGROUND. COATES? ACTUALLY PUT A SWEET SPIN ON ALL THE FOREGOING WITH THIS HERE:




When T'Challa faces Doom again? T'Challa will again "...place the knife where it belonged...". This also gives us a character beat wherein T'Challa should imo become the absolute best "street level" knife fighter in 616 and the MCU. T'Challa, uberprep, supreme shrewdness, supreme spirituality and tech, claws, super senses, supreme skills with knives [ which by extension includes spears and swords ]. T'Challa...in typical fashion...keeps these skills under wraps until it's appropriate for him to reveal them, thus preventing his foes from prepping for his skills ahead of time.

I like it.

What do my fellow HEFfas think?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 10:43:50 am by supreme illuminati »
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2019, 12:20:09 am »
That garbage 'strikethrough" thing just activated itself by itself in my post above, and I still can't get rid of it. I've tried "fixes" offered by my more tech savvy HEF brethren, to no avail.
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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2019, 05:26:24 am »
No doubt DoomWar diminished Wakanda and T'Challa in the comics, but a much looser adaptation, mainly using the brand name "DoomWar" a la how the MCU has used "Civil War" and "Infinity War" I think could work. I do like your idea of having Doom at first be a behind the scenes manipulator as well as him being the one that resurrects Klaue. That could show both his technological and magical skills. I also like the idea of the rival royal families. There's a lot of ways to go here, and Doom seems like he can be an anti-T'Challa in a different way than Killmonger, without going the standard MCU route of just a dark mirror character.

I wouldn't mind seeing "Who is the Black Panther?" or "The Client" also adapted, and more faithfully than if they did a version of "DoomWar". Perhaps though they could have the movement that supports Achebe be the Desturi in a film. I liked the Desturi and wish they had gotten more development.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2019, 07:33:08 am »
Considering how much they change things for the movies (ex. Civil War comics vs Civil War movie), if the movie was DoomWar, the only things it would have in common is Doctor Doom, T'Challa, and maybe some guest stars that were in the comic.  And given MCU love of third act wars, it probably ends with a way between Wakandan army vs a thousand Doommade robots.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 07:34:49 am by KIP LEWIS »

Offline Ezyo

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2019, 09:35:54 am »
The problem with Doom is that he is so protected that when he loses, he loses very little. If we had a third act of the Wakandan army vs Doom bots. It's just that, bots. He loses nothing and doesn't feel the loss. If the Wakandan army gets involved, it needs to be  done in a way that warrants it.

Offline Ture

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2019, 09:38:47 am »
Doom and Doomwar are simply unnecessary for the cinematic Black Panther. Secret Invasion would be a workable context in which to encapsulate phase four, though even that is problematic. BP's chapter of Secret Invasion could be cinematically done as a major thread running through the Avengers (possibly the Ultimates) movies not as a narrative for a solo BP movie especially not his sequel. BP solos should remain insular and stand alone.
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2019, 10:26:28 am »
Doom and Doomwar are simply unnecessary for the cinematic Black Panther. Secret Invasion would be a workable context in which to encapsulate phase four, though even that is problematic. BP's chapter of Secret Invasion could be cinematically done as a major thread running through the Avengers (possibly the Ultimates) movies not as a narrative for a solo BP movie especially not his sequel. BP solos should remain insular and stand alone.

Actually now that you say that--it's not needed to be part of BP mythos--the proper place for a movie named DoomWar is the FF movies.

Offline Ture

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2019, 01:25:58 pm »
Doom and Doomwar are simply unnecessary for the cinematic Black Panther. Secret Invasion would be a workable context in which to encapsulate phase four, though even that is problematic. BP's chapter of Secret Invasion could be cinematically done as a major thread running through the Avengers (possibly the Ultimates) movies not as a narrative for a solo BP movie especially not his sequel. BP solos should remain insular and stand alone.

Actually now that you say that--it's not needed to be part of BP mythos--the proper place for a movie named DoomWar is the FF movies.

You'd think that be a nobrainer right? DoomWar was a Doom comic with FF, XMen and BP as supporting characters. It was never meant to be about BP laying hands on Doom. The MCU can launch FF and XMen with Doomwar.
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