Author Topic: Revisiting DoomWar  (Read 2227 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2019, 05:33:57 pm »
Comics precedents are often ignored when it comes to films. T'Challa's motivation and relationship with Klaw removed; T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan people totally redirected. Even the fact that T'Challa built Falcon's wings has been obfuscated. Much of this and more has to be addressed and corrected in order  to firmly establish the Black Panther. No need redress Shuri at this point, we have more pressing concerns with the main character.

"T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda."

All that was there.

"Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan"

They never did much to make a difference in the comics either


I didn't say it wasn't there, just that it rode the bench. T'Challa's genius level intellect was sidelined when Shuri states that she can improve on the EMP beads he considers working just fine, not to mention she built the better panther suit and explained to him how it worked. Sidelined when T'Challa gave Ross to Shuri to save. Sidelined when the Avengers bought Vision to Wakanda, Shuri did the diagnosis and T'Challa just stood there and watched, Shuri even performed the complex procedure.

T'Challa's win/lost record states the facts. Pretty even fight with Winter Soldier though Cap got the better of their exchanges. Black Panther didn't look like he knew what to do to handle Giant man (as Spider-Man came up with the strategy to beat him). A non enhanced Hawkeye, did better than could have been expected. T'Challa is one and one with Killmonger. His err Shuri's tech took down way more attacking Wakandans than his martial arts did. The Black Panther was mauled by Outriders. The final nail in the coffin for T'Challa's martial prowess being sidelined comes when Nakia states Okoye is the greatest warrior Wakanda has.

Strategic and tactical proficiency were most certainly absent when T'Challa jeopardizes his entire country and its people rather setting the Avengers up on some distant private island he owns. Wakandan soldiers demonstrated no battle tactics, they just ran head first into an invading alien army with their energy shields deactivated; Wakanda had no orbiting defense satellites to destroy the Outrider's incoming transport vehicles. The final insult... what kind of energy screen does Wakanda have, that not only can an invading army push through it, they can always just run around behind it?

The Emperor mentioned a comic book precedent and I stated that precedents are often ignored. In the BP film they made it a point to state that Wakanda did nothing to help other Afrakans however in the comics there are precedents. T'Challa became a Harlem school teacher to serve the underprivileged; T'Challa offered freedom to a South African family under apartheid. The Black Panther secretly supported the people of Azania as the Panther Spirit declared war and began a killing spree. During the Trans Atlantic slave trade, Wakandans destroyed slave ships, bought, freed and trained captives... all precedents, all ignored. I say they made a difference.



To absolutely no one's surprise, I agree top to bottom with Ndugu [ Brother ] Ture's take above. The question now is...how can we rectify these lapses in the Black Panther trilogy WITHOUT taking away the things that makes us love Shuri, Okoye, etc?

ANSWER: Re-emphasize that T'Challa is the best OVERALL AT EVERYTHING. T'Challa is THE KING OF ALL TRADES. The fact that he's the King of All Trades doesn't make him The Best of EVERY Trade. I use the Decathlete analogy all the time. This analogy serves us beautifully here. Okoye? Could be the best spear fighter and the best DM commander. T'Challa? Is the best WEAPONS MASTER, HAND TO HAND COMBATANT and best OVERALL BATTLE STRATEGY AND TACTICAL LEADER.  Shuri? Would be the best at specific fields of tech [ which we saw hinted at in RH's WHO IS THE BLACK PANTHER ] whereas T'Challa would be the best overall at ALL THE FIELDS OF TECH. Including music, etc. I think that THIS T'Challa...the more complete, more well rounded T'Challa, closer to our 616 T'Challa...will surface more and more in BP 2 and 3, plus other BP movies.

T'Challa is clearly the truth. And...they are "Not Used to the Truth"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBQlrbLYgak

^^^We're going to see this guy, closer to our experienced mature 616 T'Challa BP...in upcoming iterations of BP in BP 2 and 3.

I was NOT THRILLED by the garbage "tactics" of Wakanda in INFINITY WAR. I thought that Thanos would be more formidable as a foe if Wakanda was presented as being far more formidable an adversary...and Thanos STILL found a BELIEVABLE way to press for Vision. I think that threatening Wanda would work, because Vision would come to rescue her. I agree with the beat used there in IW because it's true to both characters. Wanda wouldn't let her fellow heroes and/or Wakandan innocents die. Vision wouldn't let them or Wakanda die, even if it cost him his life.

I would have thought that Wakanda would have repelled the first 2 attacks, with the 3rd battle taking place in space...which would see Vision launch from Wakanda into space to save Wanda and everyone on her ship from being killed and thrown into space when the Stark Enterprise space battleship they're on is overrun.

T'Challa Cap and other Avengers aboard his Nyami class space battle cruiser would pursue the falling Stark ship, transport the imperiled crew aboard the Nyami, and maybe a combo of Wanda's powers and energies as she battles Thanos plus Thanos' tech makes it very perilous to everyone to transport Wanda to the Nyami. Vision receives all this via Shuri's comm screens in Wakanda, and launches to save Wanda...and the battle in space rages its way back to Wakanda. Where we have the final scenes we see in IW...with T'Challa friggin leading Wakandan forces [ not Captain America ], and T'Challa and Cap laying waste to many and plenty foes en route to Thor's amazing re-entry and playing out the way we see in IW.
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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2019, 06:45:03 pm »
Comics precedents are often ignored when it comes to films. T'Challa's motivation and relationship with Klaw removed; T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan people totally redirected. Even the fact that T'Challa built Falcon's wings has been obfuscated. Much of this and more has to be addressed and corrected in order  to firmly establish the Black Panther. No need redress Shuri at this point, we have more pressing concerns with the main character.

Precedents are ignored sometimes, but I think saying 'often' is stretching it. Generally, most comic book films adhere to the basic or most important relationships or major things that shaped the characters from the comics. And I do think that we've seen over the years an attempt to give the fans what studios think they want with certain character/storyline moments. While at other times things are tweaked or have been changed. There is history and precedent for Shuri taking over Black Panther, and it wouldn't take much to start the online campaigning to get her in the role. Shuri becoming Black Panther was a major character/life shaping moment for her. Not as much for T'Challa, but it's there to explore in Shuri's future if they go there, and I'm sure there will be people speculating about it and pushing for it online.

I don't think that any of the things you list that need correction are probably going to be addressed. I think this 'stunted' (for lack of a better term) version of Panther is what Disney/Marvel wanted and what audiences worldwide shelled out tons of money to see and many still love. There's no financial incentive to do those things now, because it adds more exposition that might be 'needless' now that the cat's out of the bag. Falcon has been flying for a long-time now, and upping T'Challa's intellect and science acumen might be considered taking it away from Shuri, even though comics readers know that the reverse actually happened when it comes to the film. Same goes with his fighting skills. There has to be space for the Dora Milaje and Nakia and there roles would be lessened if the comics Panther was on the scene. They wouldn't be completely sidelined, but he would be taking more people down than he did in the movie faster and with less need of help. But that makes me think of the different continuities or 'realities' for various media. There's just BP movie fans and to them, this is the 'reality', whereas its different for fans of the comics, or fans of the older comics, or even who might have watched the Hudlin-era animated series.

Stretch you say? Possibly but even a cursory view demonstrates a clear argument for such. Just look at the mid seventies live action iterations of  Hulk, Daredevil and Thor. The FF films and how they addressed Dr. Doom and Galactus. Spider-man's original suit made by Stark. Ultron made by Stark. The mythological Norse gods are now cosmic aliens. Jean Gray killing Scott in XMen 3. Not to mention all the unnecessary race swapping.

Some of the things I mentioned will have to be addressed especially if Disney/Marvel want their BP franchise to stay at the pinnacle of success. Trying to appease uninformed fans, address pop trends and support arguments for inclusion are short sighted when the central character, the one who started it all, is unceremoniously sacrificed.

We got a great Black Panther movie because a well grounded and defined character with excellent source material was put in the capable hands of passionate and committed director, producer, writers, actors, costume,and set designers and well informed, supportive and historically vocal fan base all of whom were of one accord in comprehending the significance of what they were engaging in.

I am of the opinion that what made the Black Panther so worthy of all its accolades and impressive financial earnings was the  presentation Afrakan people going beyond just non stereotypical roles but into its own genre of Afrakan centered Afro Futurism while grounding itself in both historical and contemporary issues concerning what it means to be Afrakan and the responsibilities Afrakans have to one another world wide.

Staying in this insular lane allows a fresh approach and diversion from the popular genres of so called black drama, comedy,  and musical; the all inclusive sci fi and action genres; the trending LGBT and Hip Hop genres; religious and sports genres. Black Panther gets to tell stories in the very unique genre of Afrakan centered Afro Futurism. A true precedent.

This film also demonstrated the strength of Afrakan people who work in the industry. They stuck to their principles and produced a cultural phenomenon. Remember when Chadwick Boseman revealed Marvel initially wanted a British accent for  T'Challa and he said no.


https://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/12/31/marvel-black-panther-chadwick-boseman-african-accent-initially-not-well-received-producers/

https://shadowandact.com/wakanda-mess-is-this-chadwick-boseman-reveals-marvel-initially-wanted-a-british-accent-for-african-born-tchalla/

So I don't think we have to settle nor did we settle for a stunted version of an Afrakan superhero. A stunted Black Panther however can be argued. Thus Marvel will have to address T'Challa genius level intellect. In the MCU both he and Shuri can represent high level intelligence without short changing one another.

For instance, just like his soon to be new partner in crime, the Falcon can get a new set of high tech Wakandan wings courtesy of T'Challa just in time for his new series. Nothing hard to do just drop a line in which Sam tells Bucky T'Challa built these for me and they're the best I've had yet. Bucky can then say me too. Simple fix.

Going forward the next Black Panther film has to once again inspire Afrakan people and as long as white people aren't being made to feel guilty they will go along for the ride. This is best accomplished by adding a few more feats, some intense and unique fight scenes immersed in an empowering narrative interwoven into a superhero story demonstrating the historical successes of Afrakan people both here and on the continent.
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Offline Ezyo

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2019, 08:11:03 pm »
Comics precedents are often ignored when it comes to films. T'Challa's motivation and relationship with Klaw removed; T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan people totally redirected. Even the fact that T'Challa built Falcon's wings has been obfuscated. Much of this and more has to be addressed and corrected in order  to firmly establish the Black Panther. No need redress Shuri at this point, we have more pressing concerns with the main character.

"T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda."

All that was there.

"Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan"

They never did much to make a difference in the comics either


I didn't say it wasn't there, just that it rode the bench. T'Challa's genius level intellect was sidelined when Shuri states that she can improve on the EMP beads he considers working just fine, not to mention she built the better panther suit and explained to him how it worked. Sidelined when T'Challa gave Ross to Shuri to save. Sidelined when the Avengers bought Vision to Wakanda, Shuri did the diagnosis and T'Challa just stood there and watched, Shuri even performed the complex procedure.

T'Challa's win/lost record states the facts. Pretty even fight with Winter Soldier though Cap got the better of their exchanges. Black Panther didn't look like he knew what to do to handle Giant man (as Spider-Man came up with the strategy to beat him). A non enhanced Hawkeye, did better than could have been expected. T'Challa is one and one with Killmonger. His err Shuri's tech took down way more attacking Wakandans than his martial arts did. The Black Panther was mauled by Outriders. The final nail in the coffin for T'Challa's martial prowess being sidelined comes when Nakia states Okoye is the greatest warrior Wakanda has.

Strategic and tactical proficiency were most certainly absent when T'Challa jeopardizes his entire country and its people rather setting the Avengers up on some distant private island he owns. Wakandan soldiers demonstrated no battle tactics, they just ran head first into an invading alien army with their energy shields deactivated; Wakanda had no orbiting defense satellites to destroy the Outrider's incoming transport vehicles. The final insult... what kind of energy screen does Wakanda have, that not only can an invading army push through it, they can always just run around behind it?

The Emperor mentioned a comic book precedent and I stated that precedents are often ignored. In the BP film they made it a point to state that Wakanda did nothing to help other Afrakans however in the comics there are precedents. T'Challa became a Harlem school teacher to serve the underprivileged; T'Challa offered freedom to a South African family under apartheid. The Black Panther secretly supported the people of Azania as the Panther Spirit declared war and began a killing spree. During the Trans Atlantic slave trade, Wakandans destroyed slave ships, bought, freed and trained captives... all precedents, all ignored. I say they made a difference.


I would say i was under the impression that T'Challa created the emp beads given the conversation, also look at what Shuris responsibility is compared to T'Challa. He had been BP for 10 years, and also grooming to take over, Shuri doesn't have any responsibility so she can tinker, unlike the comics the MCU takes into consideration that people have only so much time to do stuff.

It's also not as though they were competing and her suit was better. His was older straight up and he doesn't have time like she does, and it's her lab, so if she is saving Ross and helping vision etc. He has more pressing things to worry about, Like killmonger, invading army etc. 

His win loss isn't actually that bad. He went 4-0 with WS. Everytime he was stopped by an outside force from Killing him straight up.  Cap and him were evenly matched but the last part of that fight showed T'Challa kick him back about 10 feet then he went off to get Bucky as that was his objective, he wasn't fighting Cap for real. 

In his movie he took out 20 Wakandan in one shot and took down a dragon flyer in one fluid motion, plus his focus was Erik. In IW I'll give you that the strategy and Such wasn't a great one but this is less about T'Challa and Wakanda and more about the Russo's and big action movies in general.

In movies big fights where armies charge at each other is a big brawl is more interesting then watching them carpet bomb and annihilate the opposing force at a distance. We saw that in IW, EG, BP,  and other movies do it too
 Take the dark night rises, why the hell would both sides. Who had guns, run at each other like that? It's because it's more exciting that way for movies. Also MCU Wakanda is very different in terms of defense. Why have orbital defense when no one knows you exist? They have the shield and not big huge cannons because they don't need them. The outriders ship dropped from space and exploded on impact of the shield.

There's things that I understand where your coming from but then there are others that it's movie's and what's practical to expect. I would love to see Nyami motherships and stuff o. The final battles in IW and EG but couple things. Budget, and it's not BPs movie.

Finally, in T'Challas 1 vs 2 against Erik. They actually proved how much more superior he was in skill. Emotionally comprised T'Challa could of killed Erik twice in their fight had he wanted to. On YouTube watch BP vs killmonger with health bars. It shows just how one sided the final fight was when T'Challa was at 100%. And the comment Nakia made to Okoye about being the greatest warrior? For one T'Challa was 'dead' at that point, and she was the only one are their side atm who could possibly oppose Erik. It's less a dig at T'Challa and more a compliment to Okoye. I seriously don't get why people are bothered by this because it was assumed T'Challa was no longer alive ergo she would be the greatest warrior by default

Offline MindofShadow

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2019, 06:51:46 am »
It's Shuris' job to do tech. The novel version of Hudlins first arc made a good observation. Tchalla can do most of the jobs better than anyone else, but as a leader, you have to let people do their job so as not to undermine them.

One and one vs Killmonger is better than his comic record. He was the only one who could fight Winter Soilder without his accessories. At the time Nakia thinks Tchalla is dead and Zhuri is considered WK greatest warrior during Priest run as he is the person you have to beat to become BP. When you're BP, I dont think they count you as just a warrior.

They do the same in SWaD.

I wouldn't say they made a difference, they were just involved.

Agreed. Wakanda was inconseqential to stopping the various problems in Africa. They were the same as in the movie... just do just enough to maybe help a little (A war dog was in a nigerian terrorist group, N'jobobobobobo was in the hood) but not enough to out Wakanda.

This is nitpicking for nitpick sake. I mean, come on... everyone got bodied by the outriders. That was the point. There was too many of them. T'challa, Steve, Hulkbuster all got overwhelmed. That scene was a set up for Thor's entrance... not a "T'challa sucks!" moment.

There is no reason to look for reasons to be offended.


Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2019, 05:02:44 pm »
Comics precedents are often ignored when it comes to films. T'Challa's motivation and relationship with Klaw removed; T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan people totally redirected. Even the fact that T'Challa built Falcon's wings has been obfuscated. Much of this and more has to be addressed and corrected in order  to firmly establish the Black Panther. No need redress Shuri at this point, we have more pressing concerns with the main character.

Precedents are ignored sometimes, but I think saying 'often' is stretching it. Generally, most comic book films adhere to the basic or most important relationships or major things that shaped the characters from the comics. And I do think that we've seen over the years an attempt to give the fans what studios think they want with certain character/storyline moments. While at other times things are tweaked or have been changed. There is history and precedent for Shuri taking over Black Panther, and it wouldn't take much to start the online campaigning to get her in the role. Shuri becoming Black Panther was a major character/life shaping moment for her. Not as much for T'Challa, but it's there to explore in Shuri's future if they go there, and I'm sure there will be people speculating about it and pushing for it online.

I don't think that any of the things you list that need correction are probably going to be addressed. I think this 'stunted' (for lack of a better term) version of Panther is what Disney/Marvel wanted and what audiences worldwide shelled out tons of money to see and many still love. There's no financial incentive to do those things now, because it adds more exposition that might be 'needless' now that the cat's out of the bag. Falcon has been flying for a long-time now, and upping T'Challa's intellect and science acumen might be considered taking it away from Shuri, even though comics readers know that the reverse actually happened when it comes to the film. Same goes with his fighting skills. There has to be space for the Dora Milaje and Nakia and there roles would be lessened if the comics Panther was on the scene. They wouldn't be completely sidelined, but he would be taking more people down than he did in the movie faster and with less need of help. But that makes me think of the different continuities or 'realities' for various media. There's just BP movie fans and to them, this is the 'reality', whereas its different for fans of the comics, or fans of the older comics, or even who might have watched the Hudlin-era animated series.

Stretch you say? Possibly but even a cursory view demonstrates a clear argument for such. Just look at the mid seventies live action iterations of  Hulk, Daredevil and Thor. The FF films and how they addressed Dr. Doom and Galactus. Spider-man's original suit made by Stark. Ultron made by Stark. The mythological Norse gods are now cosmic aliens. Jean Gray killing Scott in XMen 3. Not to mention all the unnecessary race swapping.

Some of the things I mentioned will have to be addressed especially if Disney/Marvel want their BP franchise to stay at the pinnacle of success. Trying to appease uninformed fans, address pop trends and support arguments for inclusion are short sighted when the central character, the one who started it all, is unceremoniously sacrificed.

We got a great Black Panther movie because a well grounded and defined character with excellent source material was put in the capable hands of passionate and committed director, producer, writers, actors, costume,and set designers and well informed, supportive and historically vocal fan base all of whom were of one accord in comprehending the significance of what they were engaging in.

I am of the opinion that what made the Black Panther so worthy of all its accolades and impressive financial earnings was the  presentation Afrakan people going beyond just non stereotypical roles but into its own genre of Afrakan centered Afro Futurism while grounding itself in both historical and contemporary issues concerning what it means to be Afrakan and the responsibilities Afrakans have to one another world wide.

Staying in this insular lane allows a fresh approach and diversion from the popular genres of so called black drama, comedy,  and musical; the all inclusive sci fi and action genres; the trending LGBT and Hip Hop genres; religious and sports genres. Black Panther gets to tell stories in the very unique genre of Afrakan centered Afro Futurism. A true precedent.

This film also demonstrated the strength of Afrakan people who work in the industry. They stuck to their principles and produced a cultural phenomenon. Remember when Chadwick Boseman revealed Marvel initially wanted a British accent for  T'Challa and he said no.


https://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/12/31/marvel-black-panther-chadwick-boseman-african-accent-initially-not-well-received-producers/

https://shadowandact.com/wakanda-mess-is-this-chadwick-boseman-reveals-marvel-initially-wanted-a-british-accent-for-african-born-tchalla/

So I don't think we have to settle nor did we settle for a stunted version of an Afrakan superhero. A stunted Black Panther however can be argued. Thus Marvel will have to address T'Challa genius level intellect. In the MCU both he and Shuri can represent high level intelligence without short changing one another.

For instance, just like his soon to be new partner in crime, the Falcon can get a new set of high tech Wakandan wings courtesy of T'Challa just in time for his new series. Nothing hard to do just drop a line in which Sam tells Bucky T'Challa built these for me and they're the best I've had yet. Bucky can then say me too. Simple fix.

Going forward the next Black Panther film has to once again inspire Afrakan people and as long as white people aren't being made to feel guilty they will go along for the ride. This is best accomplished by adding a few more feats, some intense and unique fight scenes immersed in an empowering narrative interwoven into a superhero story demonstrating the historical successes of Afrakan people both here and on the continent.


I never said that there weren't any changes or tweaks being made, but adapting material often results in changes, for novels as well as comics, or even from television shows to movies and vice versa. Also when you factor in budgets, special effects limitations, as well as licenses, and artistic vision that potentially creates more changes.

But in many fundamental respects, most comic book movies/television shows adhere to key parts of the source material they are based on. Never once have we had a Batman film about a Chuck Random in Jacksonville; it's always been Bruce Wayne from Gotham for example, and that goes for basically every other comic book film or television show. And they are even reluctant to jump the line in introducing the other Robins when it comes to Batman. Perhaps following the Superman: The Movie model, many comic book films start with an origin story and have a face-off with whoever the hero's archnemesis is, and for the most part, the studios have been faithful in finding either the true archnemesis from the comics or close to it. Precedent is not something the studios have dismissed, surprisingly. Even if they haven't always been able to make good films or have good special effects. Looking at some of your examples, with Hulk they kept the basic idea of Banner becoming the Hulk, and being an outsider, with the Daredevil (from the Hulk movie, not counting the canceled television series/movie idea), DD remained a blind lawyer named Matt Murdock who had ninja skills (and he even resembled a ninja more than he did in the comics; it's notable that the Netflix series, and perhaps Man without Fear graphic novel, took inspiration from his television appearance), and his main nemesis was Kingpin, the Fantastic Four films all adhered roughly to comic book precedent, either main continuity or Ultimate line (from what I read), and Spider-Man's suit in Homecoming or Infinity War for that matter, had precedent in the Civil War comic. (Even the Thomas Jane Punisher film, which did a lot of changing to Frank Castle, still had some influences from the comics, including its best scene with wrestler Kevin Nash. I also think another one or two of Saint's goons was from the comics).

When it comes to Black Panther, the precedent is there for him to have a legacy. There's Kasper Cole, there's Shuri, and we've already seen Killmonger (though I can't say he was technically a Black Panther in the film), and we got the flashback of T'Chaka as Black Panther, which is also precedent.

I'm not advocating that Shuri become Black Panther in the next film. I think they would need to tone up Letitia Wright for that to work, but I would be okay with the idea two or three more movies down the line, if it fits the story, is organic to the character's development.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2019, 06:43:56 pm »
T'Challa as BP - PERIOD!

Shuri should be shown to have developed her own identity, extending perhaps from her Panther blasters?

Re-establish T'Challa's own genius-level intellect without diminishing Shuri's.
Ok with her even being of more advanced genius.

Would have loved to see some N'Yami Battlecruisers deployed in IW but perhaps they are better off
being developed as a counter measure against possible further, post IW alien aggression?

DoomWar could definitely be reimagined and better executed for film but first.....

Sturm and freakin' Drang!

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2019, 09:27:07 pm »
Comics precedents are often ignored when it comes to films. T'Challa's motivation and relationship with Klaw removed; T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan people totally redirected. Even the fact that T'Challa built Falcon's wings has been obfuscated. Much of this and more has to be addressed and corrected in order  to firmly establish the Black Panther. No need redress Shuri at this point, we have more pressing concerns with the main character.

"T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda."

All that was there.

"Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan"

They never did much to make a difference in the comics either


I didn't say it wasn't there, just that it rode the bench. T'Challa's genius level intellect was sidelined when Shuri states that she can improve on the EMP beads he considers working just fine, not to mention she built the better panther suit and explained to him how it worked. Sidelined when T'Challa gave Ross to Shuri to save. Sidelined when the Avengers bought Vision to Wakanda, Shuri did the diagnosis and T'Challa just stood there and watched, Shuri even performed the complex procedure.

T'Challa's win/lost record states the facts. Pretty even fight with Winter Soldier though Cap got the better of their exchanges. Black Panther didn't look like he knew what to do to handle Giant man (as Spider-Man came up with the strategy to beat him). A non enhanced Hawkeye, did better than could have been expected. T'Challa is one and one with Killmonger. His err Shuri's tech took down way more attacking Wakandans than his martial arts did. The Black Panther was mauled by Outriders. The final nail in the coffin for T'Challa's martial prowess being sidelined comes when Nakia states Okoye is the greatest warrior Wakanda has.

Strategic and tactical proficiency were most certainly absent when T'Challa jeopardizes his entire country and its people rather setting the Avengers up on some distant private island he owns. Wakandan soldiers demonstrated no battle tactics, they just ran head first into an invading alien army with their energy shields deactivated; Wakanda had no orbiting defense satellites to destroy the Outrider's incoming transport vehicles. The final insult... what kind of energy screen does Wakanda have, that not only can an invading army push through it, they can always just run around behind it?

The Emperor mentioned a comic book precedent and I stated that precedents are often ignored. In the BP film they made it a point to state that Wakanda did nothing to help other Afrakans however in the comics there are precedents. T'Challa became a Harlem school teacher to serve the underprivileged; T'Challa offered freedom to a South African family under apartheid. The Black Panther secretly supported the people of Azania as the Panther Spirit declared war and began a killing spree. During the Trans Atlantic slave trade, Wakandans destroyed slave ships, bought, freed and trained captives... all precedents, all ignored. I say they made a difference.


I would say i was under the impression that T'Challa created the emp beads given the conversation, also look at what Shuris responsibility is compared to T'Challa. He had been BP for 10 years, and also grooming to take over, Shuri doesn't have any responsibility so she can tinker, unlike the comics the MCU takes into consideration that people have only so much time to do stuff.

It's also not as though they were competing and her suit was better. His was older straight up and he doesn't have time like she does, and it's her lab, so if she is saving Ross and helping vision etc. He has more pressing things to worry about, Like killmonger, invading army etc. 

His win loss isn't actually that bad. He went 4-0 with WS. Everytime he was stopped by an outside force from Killing him straight up.  Cap and him were evenly matched but the last part of that fight showed T'Challa kick him back about 10 feet then he went off to get Bucky as that was his objective, he wasn't fighting Cap for real. 

In his movie he took out 20 Wakandan in one shot and took down a dragon flyer in one fluid motion, plus his focus was Erik. In IW I'll give you that the strategy and Such wasn't a great one but this is less about T'Challa and Wakanda and more about the Russo's and big action movies in general.

In movies big fights where armies charge at each other is a big brawl is more interesting then watching them carpet bomb and annihilate the opposing force at a distance. We saw that in IW, EG, BP,  and other movies do it too
 Take the dark night rises, why the hell would both sides. Who had guns, run at each other like that? It's because it's more exciting that way for movies. Also MCU Wakanda is very different in terms of defense. Why have orbital defense when no one knows you exist? They have the shield and not big huge cannons because they don't need them. The outriders ship dropped from space and exploded on impact of the shield.

There's things that I understand where your coming from but then there are others that it's movie's and what's practical to expect. I would love to see Nyami motherships and stuff o. The final battles in IW and EG but couple things. Budget, and it's not BPs movie.

Finally, in T'Challas 1 vs 2 against Erik. They actually proved how much more superior he was in skill. Emotionally comprised T'Challa could of killed Erik twice in their fight had he wanted to. On YouTube watch BP vs killmonger with health bars. It shows just how one sided the final fight was when T'Challa was at 100%. And the comment Nakia made to Okoye about being the greatest warrior? For one T'Challa was 'dead' at that point, and she was the only one are their side atm who could possibly oppose Erik. It's less a dig at T'Challa and more a compliment to Okoye. I seriously don't get why people are bothered by this because it was assumed T'Challa was no longer alive ergo she would be the greatest warrior by default


Impression is one thing, certainty is another with regards to the EMP spheres. Nothing is wrong with T'Challa time schedule as this is a fictitious universe, he has ample time to perform his kingly duties; engage in scientific innovations and discoveries; and still have time to save the world and get the girl.

Remember the context of the discussion. It wasn't about comparing suits or your imposed time constraints. It was in part about T'Challa's genius level intellect being sidelined. Simply put there is no reasonable justification for doing such. T'Challa's win/loss records demonstrates some tactical deficiencies that we did not see his martial arts skill compensate for. Black Panther attacking Giant Man's pressure points instead of scurrying backwards; sending an energy shock wave rather than jumping into Thanos' grip and getting choke slammed; using his superior speed and reflexes to dodge Black Widows blast instead of taking so many hits. Also the 20 Wakandan in one shot was due to the suit not his fighting skill.

Films that have large armies needn't have them attack in block formation nor carpet bomb and annihilate the opposing force at a distance. There are so many diverse ways to do large army fight scenes not to mention how much improvement could be achieved with all the creative weaponry and nuanced battle tactics that should be at the Wakandans disposal. Remember these great wars? Game of Thrones' Battle at Blackwater Bay; 300's Battle of Thermopylae and Lord of the Rings The Two Towers  Battle of Helms Deep. Remember that really old movie The Empire Strikes Back. The number of Asian films we could discuss would start another thread.

The thing is that Black Panther's first movie was such a great film for any number of reasons that the sequel has to be that much bigger. This means when the T'Challa the Black Panther shows up everyone knows they have to raise their game because the baddest player has entered the room.
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Online Ture

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2019, 09:51:36 pm »
Comics precedents are often ignored when it comes to films. T'Challa's motivation and relationship with Klaw removed; T'Challa's genius level intellect and martial arts prowess sidelined. Strategic and tactical proficiency were absent for both T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panther and Wakanda doing something about the injustices done to Afrakan people totally redirected. Even the fact that T'Challa built Falcon's wings has been obfuscated. Much of this and more has to be addressed and corrected in order  to firmly establish the Black Panther. No need redress Shuri at this point, we have more pressing concerns with the main character.

Precedents are ignored sometimes, but I think saying 'often' is stretching it. Generally, most comic book films adhere to the basic or most important relationships or major things that shaped the characters from the comics. And I do think that we've seen over the years an attempt to give the fans what studios think they want with certain character/storyline moments. While at other times things are tweaked or have been changed. There is history and precedent for Shuri taking over Black Panther, and it wouldn't take much to start the online campaigning to get her in the role. Shuri becoming Black Panther was a major character/life shaping moment for her. Not as much for T'Challa, but it's there to explore in Shuri's future if they go there, and I'm sure there will be people speculating about it and pushing for it online.

I don't think that any of the things you list that need correction are probably going to be addressed. I think this 'stunted' (for lack of a better term) version of Panther is what Disney/Marvel wanted and what audiences worldwide shelled out tons of money to see and many still love. There's no financial incentive to do those things now, because it adds more exposition that might be 'needless' now that the cat's out of the bag. Falcon has been flying for a long-time now, and upping T'Challa's intellect and science acumen might be considered taking it away from Shuri, even though comics readers know that the reverse actually happened when it comes to the film. Same goes with his fighting skills. There has to be space for the Dora Milaje and Nakia and there roles would be lessened if the comics Panther was on the scene. They wouldn't be completely sidelined, but he would be taking more people down than he did in the movie faster and with less need of help. But that makes me think of the different continuities or 'realities' for various media. There's just BP movie fans and to them, this is the 'reality', whereas its different for fans of the comics, or fans of the older comics, or even who might have watched the Hudlin-era animated series.

Stretch you say? Possibly but even a cursory view demonstrates a clear argument for such. Just look at the mid seventies live action iterations of  Hulk, Daredevil and Thor. The FF films and how they addressed Dr. Doom and Galactus. Spider-man's original suit made by Stark. Ultron made by Stark. The mythological Norse gods are now cosmic aliens. Jean Gray killing Scott in XMen 3. Not to mention all the unnecessary race swapping.

Some of the things I mentioned will have to be addressed especially if Disney/Marvel want their BP franchise to stay at the pinnacle of success. Trying to appease uninformed fans, address pop trends and support arguments for inclusion are short sighted when the central character, the one who started it all, is unceremoniously sacrificed.

We got a great Black Panther movie because a well grounded and defined character with excellent source material was put in the capable hands of passionate and committed director, producer, writers, actors, costume,and set designers and well informed, supportive and historically vocal fan base all of whom were of one accord in comprehending the significance of what they were engaging in.

I am of the opinion that what made the Black Panther so worthy of all its accolades and impressive financial earnings was the  presentation Afrakan people going beyond just non stereotypical roles but into its own genre of Afrakan centered Afro Futurism while grounding itself in both historical and contemporary issues concerning what it means to be Afrakan and the responsibilities Afrakans have to one another world wide.

Staying in this insular lane allows a fresh approach and diversion from the popular genres of so called black drama, comedy,  and musical; the all inclusive sci fi and action genres; the trending LGBT and Hip Hop genres; religious and sports genres. Black Panther gets to tell stories in the very unique genre of Afrakan centered Afro Futurism. A true precedent.

This film also demonstrated the strength of Afrakan people who work in the industry. They stuck to their principles and produced a cultural phenomenon. Remember when Chadwick Boseman revealed Marvel initially wanted a British accent for  T'Challa and he said no.


https://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/12/31/marvel-black-panther-chadwick-boseman-african-accent-initially-not-well-received-producers/

https://shadowandact.com/wakanda-mess-is-this-chadwick-boseman-reveals-marvel-initially-wanted-a-british-accent-for-african-born-tchalla/

So I don't think we have to settle nor did we settle for a stunted version of an Afrakan superhero. A stunted Black Panther however can be argued. Thus Marvel will have to address T'Challa genius level intellect. In the MCU both he and Shuri can represent high level intelligence without short changing one another.

For instance, just like his soon to be new partner in crime, the Falcon can get a new set of high tech Wakandan wings courtesy of T'Challa just in time for his new series. Nothing hard to do just drop a line in which Sam tells Bucky T'Challa built these for me and they're the best I've had yet. Bucky can then say me too. Simple fix.

Going forward the next Black Panther film has to once again inspire Afrakan people and as long as white people aren't being made to feel guilty they will go along for the ride. This is best accomplished by adding a few more feats, some intense and unique fight scenes immersed in an empowering narrative interwoven into a superhero story demonstrating the historical successes of Afrakan people both here and on the continent.


I never said that there weren't any changes or tweaks being made, but adapting material often results in changes, for novels as well as comics, or even from television shows to movies and vice versa. Also when you factor in budgets, special effects limitations, as well as licenses, and artistic vision that potentially creates more changes.

But in many fundamental respects, most comic book movies/television shows adhere to key parts of the source material they are based on. Never once have we had a Batman film about a Chuck Random in Jacksonville; it's always been Bruce Wayne from Gotham for example, and that goes for basically every other comic book film or television show. And they are even reluctant to jump the line in introducing the other Robins when it comes to Batman. Perhaps following the Superman: The Movie model, many comic book films start with an origin story and have a face-off with whoever the hero's archnemesis is, and for the most part, the studios have been faithful in finding either the true archnemesis from the comics or close to it. Precedent is not something the studios have dismissed, surprisingly. Even if they haven't always been able to make good films or have good special effects. Looking at some of your examples, with Hulk they kept the basic idea of Banner becoming the Hulk, and being an outsider, with the Daredevil (from the Hulk movie, not counting the canceled television series/movie idea), DD remained a blind lawyer named Matt Murdock who had ninja skills (and he even resembled a ninja more than he did in the comics; it's notable that the Netflix series, and perhaps Man without Fear graphic novel, took inspiration from his television appearance), and his main nemesis was Kingpin, the Fantastic Four films all adhered roughly to comic book precedent, either main continuity or Ultimate line (from what I read), and Spider-Man's suit in Homecoming or Infinity War for that matter, had precedent in the Civil War comic. (Even the Thomas Jane Punisher film, which did a lot of changing to Frank Castle, still had some influences from the comics, including its best scene with wrestler Kevin Nash. I also think another one or two of Saint's goons was from the comics).

When it comes to Black Panther, the precedent is there for him to have a legacy. There's Kasper Cole, there's Shuri, and we've already seen Killmonger (though I can't say he was technically a Black Panther in the film), and we got the flashback of T'Chaka as Black Panther, which is also precedent.

I'm not advocating that Shuri become Black Panther in the next film. I think they would need to tone up Letitia Wright for that to work, but I would be okay with the idea two or three more movies down the line, if it fits the story, is organic to the character's development.

Adhering to key parts of the source material has not prevented the inclusion of new and unnecessary precedents. The Hulk not talking nor being bulletproof. The changing of Daredevils costume to black. Spider-Man's original iconic suit being made by Stark. Speaking of Spider-Man they even took away his creating the web shooter in the Toby Maguire trilogy. We did have Batman films that did not often show him being a world class escape artist, master of disguise nor one of his most dominant traits brilliant detective. How does the Black Panther, his franchise or fans benefit from a legacy being fulfilled by Kasper Cole? Shuri... ok, she can do it after BP 6.
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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Revisiting DoomWar
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2019, 08:35:00 am »
I like Kasper Cole as the "Acolyte" assuming the White Tiger is off the table?

Shuri is ingenious enough to create her own identity.

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