Author Topic: FLOYD V OSCAR  (Read 14765 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: FLOYD V OSCAR
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2007, 12:08:55 am »
I thought Mayweather's stunt was offensive because thats how it was meant, it was an ethnic taunt. Period.

And how do you know his intent?  The question is sincere because, to tell you the truth, I'm not sure that he knows what he intended with that display.  Could it be that you interpreted it as an ethnic taunt?

Now, I find it funny that when someone walks around in a Confederate getup, we all jump up about how wrong it is, but the minute *we* do it to someone else it's not offensive? Bull. How DID Floyd intend it? How did his Uncle intend it when he wore that getup? We cannot constantly call people on the carpet about the INSENSITIVE things that they do when we do the same crap.

Back to boxing: THE SPORT IS DEAD.


PS: I was bred to watch boxing also, and as Supreme stated the champs that fought that style KNOCKED people out or dominated them so throughly that no one doubted it.

Thanx,Sinister8578,I was beginning to wonder if anybody noted the post I made containing that point about the style that Floyd employs.He dominates good fighters,but GOAT candidates dominate GREAT fighters,or at least the "best of their time". Floyd hasn't done that to anyone remotely close to "best of their time" since...say...his total destruction of Chico,or his clear victory over Zab.These guys are candidates for 'best of their time in their weight class"...but their weight classes aren't loaded with talent when compared to recent time periods like the 90s and 80s.

As for the national flag thing...

I don't know about anyone else,but the reason I tend to look at peeps wearing the Confederate flag sideways is because the Confederate States of America had as a central tenet the continued enslavement of my people.That right there is pretty hard to overlook,and is indisputably racist.I can't see how Floyd's behaviour can be even remotely compared to this.I believe he or his press people actually indicated that the gesture was indeed a way to pay homage to the Mexican boxing public,and an attempt to defuse any misinterpretation of Floyd's antics with Oscar during the prefight press tour as Floyd's actual opinion about Latinos as a cultural group.I will try to find the article that makes this point and bring it here in a little while...

...whether Floyd's intentions miscarried or not,I think that's dependent upon the individual.But to conclude that he deliberately insulted an entire country--a country whose indigenous people are of black skin color and very dark skin color,as the art of the Aztecs,Olmecs,et al show--I think is more than a little unwarranted.I don't disagree with a person's right--yours,BarbaraB's,whomever's--to voice that opinion or whatever other opinion on the matter.I just don't see how it can hold up under even a cursory examination...
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Offline Vic Vega

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Re: FLOYD V OSCAR
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2007, 08:24:10 am »
Thanks for the actual figures D-Ruck.  I was just going from watching the fight.  The problem with the fight was that of all the blows landed by both fighters, only a handful were solid and neither fighter was remotely hurt or stung at any time.  It was a solid exhibition in defense and counter punching by Mayweather but pretty dull to watch.  De La Hoya was never able to cut him off effectively and force  a real exchange.  When they were boxing in the center of the ring, DLH couldn't touch him.  In spite of that, he (DLH) seemed content to just let the clock run.  No sense of urgency especially in the later rounds when it was evident that the only way for him to win was by knockout.  Meh.  I wasn't especially impressed with either of them in this fight.  Like I said though, Mayweather is quick.

It wasn't a bloody all out slugfest, but I appreciated Mayweather's skill.  No he didn't dominate, but his speed and defensive wizardry I found to be fun to watch.  But with me, I was bred to watch boxing, it's a sentimental thing with the family, and the house was full of people rooting for either side.  So while the actual fight may not have been noteworthy, the hype surrouding it, and the excitement and conversation it drew were well worth it.


Enter supreme illuminati...


First off,I didn't find a thing offensive about Mayweather entering draped in the Mexican flag and wearing sombreros.I think that he was making a gesture--an important symbolic gesture--to his position that this fight between Floyd and Oscar was simply a fight between these two,and NOT a conflict between Blacks and Latinos.The fact that the fight was held on Cinco de Mayo was guaranteed to stir up nationalistic pride AND amp the PPV buys,and Floyd was smart enough to capitolize on the PPV buys and use that opportunity to defuse any contention that he--or,by extension in the minds of some media outlets and some groups of people amongst both races--held any dislike or disregard for Latinos as a cultural group.Besides,there are PLENTY of Black Latino like Trinidad and Sammy Sosa,et al.I'm not the only Black Latin on this board,for instance.


Secondly,nobody in that ring last Saturday is even CLOSE to being GOAT.Hammering Hank Armstrong,Sugar Ray Robinson--my votes for the real GOAT--,Sugar Ray Leonard,Dick Tiger,and a whole host of other fighters would absolutely crush Mayweather.I don't think that Mayweather would outbox vintage Pernell Whitaker,and that's real.

Thirdly,it's clear that Floyd fought a smart,superior boxing match and that he wasn't given credit for the accumulation of sharp punches that he DID land.Oscar didn't just GET TIRED...Oscar felt the cumulative effect of THROWING LOTSA PUNCHES and MISSING THOSE PUNCHES,while GETTING HIT WITH SHARP COUNTERS AND LEADS.That combination saps both your willingness and most importantly ABILITY to maintain the kind of relentless attack pressure that he needs to beat Mayweather.

If Floyd fought Shane,he'd beat Shane too using the same formula.He wouldn't take any real chances and win a technically sharp,defensively masterful fight that would be ultimately unsatisfying in the eyes of boxing purists.Being a trained fighter brought up on old skool hardcore values,I for one would truly appreciate the sweet science of Floyd's performances,but I also feel wholeheartedly that this model should be used in a way that would result in a clear victory...preferably KO or TKO,but at least a dominating unanimous decision,even if the opponent is a "live" opponent and accounted for himself well in every round.I don't think that Floyd will risk himself like that,and this alone disqualifies him from any mention with the real all-time greats...because the REAL all-time greats would DOMINATE BIG FIGHTS.Pernell whooped the holy crap outta Chavez,despite being shamelessly robbed.He would've beaten Tito Trinidad too,had the politics of the fight game prevented him from being able to fight his traditional fight.This same Pernell beat Oscar,but got robbed so that Oscar could usher in the big cash paydays and so that the boxing establishment could deal with someone not as "independent minded" and more marketable than Pernell was back in the day.Sugar Ray Robinson performed magically in his battles against Jake "The Raging Bull" Lamotta.Sugar Ray Leonard KNOCKED OUT Hearns,made the merciless "Hands of Stone" aka Roberto Duran QUIT,and defeated the magnificent Marvelous Marvin Hagler.Oscar was the one whom showed the greater need and desire to impose his will on Floyd in a physical damaging way...Floyd showed the will and drive to maintain a disciplined game of sharp counterpunches and stinging leads,mixed with slick lateral movement and intimidating defense.Floyd did NOT,however,leave a clear stamp on this fight.

They need to have a rematch,but I doubt that such a thing will happen,because OSCAR needs to have several more victories.This is imperative both to his ego AND to the success of his Golden Boy Productions.

But now...Floyd is running out of options.All of his big money fights are also dangerous fights for him.Rematch with Oscar.Fight Shane.Fight Margarito.The only easy fight he would have is if he decapitated Hatton...but I don't wanna see that fight,unless it's a tune up for a fight with the previously mentioned trio.Rematch Zab? Nah...not enough money and too much risk for Floyd to bother.Plus Floyd cleanly beat Zab.Cotto? Floyd would whoop off on Cotto.IMHO,all of Floyd's remaining fights are live-fire fights that would make him fight more of the technically sound,defensively masterful,less exciting fights that we saw from him against Oscar.He'd win the fight,win money...and lose public esteem.He'd also be removed from serious contention for the best of his era despite his undefeated streak,because he didn't win big when the big fights were on the line.

Floyd will never be GOAT,and he might not be the best of the modern fighters.I still lean toward B.Hop,Pernell,and the MOTIVATED Roy Jones Jr. as the triumvirate of the modern GOAT...with Sugar Ray Leonard in his prime being the best of them all,hands down.

S.I., I saw Hagler DESTROY Tommy Hears in a fight that had more action in the first three rounds than Mayweather's last three FIGHTS had PUT TOGETHER.

Mayweather CAN'T HURT ANYBODY. Sugar Ray knocked folks out. Duran knocked folks out. Hell, HEARNS knocked folks out. Don't even get me started on Hagler. Ray caught him when he was past his prime and rusty.

Mayweather is a great techincal boxer. AND THAT IS ALL. If we use the standard boxing logic that says you have to win a belt via a decisive beating, Mayweather shouldn't even be champion now.

As for Boxing, Boxing killed ITSELF when it went away from network T.V. Network T.V. MADE  Whitaker, Hagler (who many in his division were AFRAID to fight, at the time) not to mention Tyson. These guys were in our households every other weekend. We saw them come up. When it came time to pay up via closed circuit we did it HAPPILY cause we knew what we were getting. 

Only the rabid boxing fan knows these guys now. Why should the casual fan pay the PPV for a bunch a guys he's never heard of? In that vein, I don't see any other fights for Mayweather but the rematch (would not want to see it) Mosley again or Zab again.  I'm not too sure about Zab either.

My .02 cents.     

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: FLOYD V OSCAR
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2007, 09:33:41 am »
Thanks for the actual figures D-Ruck.  I was just going from watching the fight.  The problem with the fight was that of all the blows landed by both fighters, only a handful were solid and neither fighter was remotely hurt or stung at any time.  It was a solid exhibition in defense and counter punching by Mayweather but pretty dull to watch.  De La Hoya was never able to cut him off effectively and force  a real exchange.  When they were boxing in the center of the ring, DLH couldn't touch him.  In spite of that, he (DLH) seemed content to just let the clock run.  No sense of urgency especially in the later rounds when it was evident that the only way for him to win was by knockout.  Meh.  I wasn't especially impressed with either of them in this fight.  Like I said though, Mayweather is quick.

It wasn't a bloody all out slugfest, but I appreciated Mayweather's skill.  No he didn't dominate, but his speed and defensive wizardry I found to be fun to watch.  But with me, I was bred to watch boxing, it's a sentimental thing with the family, and the house was full of people rooting for either side.  So while the actual fight may not have been noteworthy, the hype surrouding it, and the excitement and conversation it drew were well worth it.


Enter supreme illuminati...


First off,I didn't find a thing offensive about Mayweather entering draped in the Mexican flag and wearing sombreros.I think that he was making a gesture--an important symbolic gesture--to his position that this fight between Floyd and Oscar was simply a fight between these two,and NOT a conflict between Blacks and Latinos.The fact that the fight was held on Cinco de Mayo was guaranteed to stir up nationalistic pride AND amp the PPV buys,and Floyd was smart enough to capitolize on the PPV buys and use that opportunity to defuse any contention that he--or,by extension in the minds of some media outlets and some groups of people amongst both races--held any dislike or disregard for Latinos as a cultural group.Besides,there are PLENTY of Black Latino like Trinidad and Sammy Sosa,et al.I'm not the only Black Latin on this board,for instance.


Secondly,nobody in that ring last Saturday is even CLOSE to being GOAT.Hammering Hank Armstrong,Sugar Ray Robinson--my votes for the real GOAT--,Sugar Ray Leonard,Dick Tiger,and a whole host of other fighters would absolutely crush Mayweather.I don't think that Mayweather would outbox vintage Pernell Whitaker,and that's real.

Thirdly,it's clear that Floyd fought a smart,superior boxing match and that he wasn't given credit for the accumulation of sharp punches that he DID land.Oscar didn't just GET TIRED...Oscar felt the cumulative effect of THROWING LOTSA PUNCHES and MISSING THOSE PUNCHES,while GETTING HIT WITH SHARP COUNTERS AND LEADS.That combination saps both your willingness and most importantly ABILITY to maintain the kind of relentless attack pressure that he needs to beat Mayweather.

If Floyd fought Shane,he'd beat Shane too using the same formula.He wouldn't take any real chances and win a technically sharp,defensively masterful fight that would be ultimately unsatisfying in the eyes of boxing purists.Being a trained fighter brought up on old skool hardcore values,I for one would truly appreciate the sweet science of Floyd's performances,but I also feel wholeheartedly that this model should be used in a way that would result in a clear victory...preferably KO or TKO,but at least a dominating unanimous decision,even if the opponent is a "live" opponent and accounted for himself well in every round.I don't think that Floyd will risk himself like that,and this alone disqualifies him from any mention with the real all-time greats...because the REAL all-time greats would DOMINATE BIG FIGHTS.Pernell whooped the holy crap outta Chavez,despite being shamelessly robbed.He would've beaten Tito Trinidad too,had the politics of the fight game prevented him from being able to fight his traditional fight.This same Pernell beat Oscar,but got robbed so that Oscar could usher in the big cash paydays and so that the boxing establishment could deal with someone not as "independent minded" and more marketable than Pernell was back in the day.Sugar Ray Robinson performed magically in his battles against Jake "The Raging Bull" Lamotta.Sugar Ray Leonard KNOCKED OUT Hearns,made the merciless "Hands of Stone" aka Roberto Duran QUIT,and defeated the magnificent Marvelous Marvin Hagler.Oscar was the one whom showed the greater need and desire to impose his will on Floyd in a physical damaging way...Floyd showed the will and drive to maintain a disciplined game of sharp counterpunches and stinging leads,mixed with slick lateral movement and intimidating defense.Floyd did NOT,however,leave a clear stamp on this fight.

They need to have a rematch,but I doubt that such a thing will happen,because OSCAR needs to have several more victories.This is imperative both to his ego AND to the success of his Golden Boy Productions.

But now...Floyd is running out of options.All of his big money fights are also dangerous fights for him.Rematch with Oscar.Fight Shane.Fight Margarito.The only easy fight he would have is if he decapitated Hatton...but I don't wanna see that fight,unless it's a tune up for a fight with the previously mentioned trio.Rematch Zab? Nah...not enough money and too much risk for Floyd to bother.Plus Floyd cleanly beat Zab.Cotto? Floyd would whoop off on Cotto.IMHO,all of Floyd's remaining fights are live-fire fights that would make him fight more of the technically sound,defensively masterful,less exciting fights that we saw from him against Oscar.He'd win the fight,win money...and lose public esteem.He'd also be removed from serious contention for the best of his era despite his undefeated streak,because he didn't win big when the big fights were on the line.

Floyd will never be GOAT,and he might not be the best of the modern fighters.I still lean toward B.Hop,Pernell,and the MOTIVATED Roy Jones Jr. as the triumvirate of the modern GOAT...with Sugar Ray Leonard in his prime being the best of them all,hands down.

S.I., I saw Hagler DESTROY Tommy Hears in a fight that had more action in the first three rounds than Mayweather's last three FIGHTS had PUT TOGETHER.

Mayweather CAN'T HURT ANYBODY. Sugar Ray knocked folks out. Duran knocked folks out. Hell, HEARNS knocked folks out. Don't even get me started on Hagler. Ray caught him when he was past his prime and rusty.

Mayweather is a great techincal boxer. AND THAT IS ALL. If we use the standard boxing logic that says you have to win a belt via a decisive beating, Mayweather shouldn't even be champion now.

As for Boxing, Boxing killed ITSELF when it went away from network T.V. Network T.V. MADE  Whitaker, Hagler (who many in his division were AFRAID to fight, at the time) not to mention Tyson. These guys were in our households every other weekend. We saw them come up. When it came time to pay up via closed circuit we did it HAPPILY cause we knew what we were getting. 

Only the rabid boxing fan knows these guys now. Why should the casual fan pay the PPV for a bunch a guys he's never heard of? In that vein, I don't see any other fights for Mayweather but the rematch (would not want to see it) Mosley again or Zab again.  I'm not too sure about Zab either.

My .02 cents.     


See,lookit Vic make a great point in like 1/3 the time it took me to write my opinion! I have to say that--as Floyd went up in weight and fought stiffer competiton--his KO percentage fell off drastically,and so did his "stagger/hurt" percentage.You don't HAVE to knock somebody out if it's clear that you're at least BACKING HIM UP or HURTING him.He showed flashes of this in the Oscar fight,popping Oscar solidly a few times throughout...but to EVER mention HAGLER/HEARNS--which remains the most action packed hammer throwing middleweight fight I have ever ever ever seen live--is stupid.I know you didn't do it,Vic,but for Floyd to open his mouth and DARE to breathe names like Ray Robinson? Come the hell on,now,Floyd! You KNOW better! HAGLER-HEARNS had more action in that ONE FIGHT than Floyd has had in his CAREER...because the nonstop BOMBS from both THE MARVELOUS ONE and THE HITMAN elevated it to a truely great match,whereas Floyd has never had a truely great match because he's never faced a truely great opponent.Full stop.

Floyd not only has to have great fights,HE HAS TO SEEK GREAT FIGHTERS.Man,the one thing NOBODY can accuse Oscar of doing is NOT SEEKING THE BEST GUYS IN HIS ERA TO FIGHT.Oscar goes for it,dawg,no matter what anybody has to say about him.He DIDN'T have to fight Mayweather,but not only did he make the fight happen via negotiations,he ALSO MADE THE FIGHT HAPPEN IN THE RING.Dawg,if I'm making 10 million and you're making 25 million? I'm taking that 15 million dollar difference out of your ass.Period.I'm gonna hit you 30 million times and show you why brothas are so serious about our money.Real talk right there.Floyd not only DIDN'T do this,he STILL doesn't SEEK OUT THE BEST IN HIS ERA.Really.HIS HEART SHOULD MAKE HIM SEEK OUT AND DESTROY SHANE,MARGARITO,OSCAR,HATTON,COTTO,CINTRON...each and every one of these guys.There should be NO question as to whom is the best,if he's really a GOAT candidate.He should fight these guys AND REALLY FIGHT THEM.But it won't happen.He should INSIST on a rematcha with OSCAR...so even if DLH says NO,at least Floyd's position will be clear to the boxing public and the public at large.

Ricardo Lopez is probably the GOAT of our era.Baddest,baddest,BADDEST dude around,hands down.Undefeated in like 50 fights.He had something like 46 KOs.Retired unknown because of Don King.I think Floyd could beat him if Floyd came out hungry and violent,because Floyd's STYLE is suited to beat him...but lucky for Floyd,Ricardo is just too light for him.So Floyd should fight and humble MARGARITO...if he can.He should put hammers on Shane,if Floyd can.He should destroy Hatton,just because his name is in the circle of contenders.Hell,I'm older and far more poor than Floyd,and I'm about to fight in a tourney with guys whom outweigh me by up to 130 pounds or so...and I'm beating up on everyone.At least that's my mindset.Tapouts and knockouts,and blowouts (some are point fighting matches with KOs not allowed,but TKOs are allowed via points blowout) only.No decisions.

Gotta go run my 5 miles now,everybody.See you in a few hours or so...
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