Author Topic: Captain America and Black Panther  (Read 20930 times)

Offline sinjection

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2006, 12:25:16 pm »
At the risk of sounding like a mutual admiration society supreme, I have to say that I've enjoyed every post of yours that I've read. There's always something "illuminating" about them.

With respect to "Contest Of Champions" I: Wolverine vs Black Panther, it's entirely possible that during their fight, T'Challa might have mentally assessed Wolverine's fighting prowess as being fierce, but to the best of my recollection, it wasn't as if the Panther was about to faint dead away. Although no one has ever written the Panther with the predatory confidence and elegance that Mr. Hudlin has imparted to the character, the T'Challa of "Contest Of Champions" I wasn't exactly a lightweight "pussycat". In fact after the fight, Wolverine made the comment that he was winning. Not impressed and not overly-concerned about Wolverine's boast, T'Challa simply reminded Loopy Logan that their fight was not yet over. T'Challa let Wolverine know then and there that he was far from beaten. Loopy Logan then responded with something like, "I had you licked six ways to Sunday". It was at that point that Ben Grimm said, "Runt, yours is one butt I'd like to boot from here to Boise". How am I doing Damon?

I hope there would be copies of the "Contest Of Champions" out there somewhere supreme. If so, I hope you are fortunate enough to find it and pick it up. The books feature the excellent early work of a still-developing John Romita, Jr. He was good then. Of course as we all know, he's much better now. And interestingly enough given the recent happy event in Wakanda, there is a panel in the first issue of the series showing the following characters standing near one another and chatting: Falcon, Cage, Brother Voodoo (I believe), another black character called "Talisman" was also featured if I'm not mistaken. He was a mystic sort of character who traveled in and made use of the "Dreamtime". However, also in this panel was the future King and Queen of Wakanda - T'Challa and Ororo. They were standing near one another and might have even been standing next to one another.

So you see discontented X-Fanatics and RoLo folks, the union of T'Challa and Ororo was something that was inevitable and meant to happen. Like it or not  :)
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline DamonO

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2006, 02:14:50 pm »

With respect to "Contest Of Champions" I: Wolverine vs Black Panther, it's entirely possible that during their fight, T'Challa might have mentally assessed Wolverine's fighting prowess as being fierce, but to the best of my recollection, it wasn't as if the Panther was about to faint dead away. Although no one has ever written the Panther with the predatory confidence and elegance that Mr. Hudlin has imparted to the character, the T'Challa of "Contest Of Champions" I wasn't exactly a lightweight "pussycat". In fact after the fight, Wolverine made the comment that he was winning. Not impressed and not overly-concerned about Wolverine's boast, T'Challa simply reminded Loopy Logan that their fight was not yet over. T'Challa let Wolverine know then and there that he was far from beaten. Loopy Logan then responded with something like, "I had you licked six ways to Sunday". It was at that point that Ben Grimm said, "Runt, yours is one butt I'd like to boot from here to Boise". How am I doing Damon?


Preach!

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2006, 02:01:38 pm »
I really liked this thread...
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2006, 07:58:55 pm »
Now back to Wolverine for a minute. This character is either a perpetual retcon or one that is constantly evolving. Initially, Wolverine's "berserker rage" and "snikt" was what defined him. Cyclops illustrated this best when after the X-Men had been put through the ringer and badly shaken by Moira McTaggert's mutant son, "Proteus", Cyclops staged an impromptu battle to "test" the battle readiness of those X-Men affected, Nightcrawler, Wolverine and Storm. Cyclops was able to goad Wolverine into attacking him and was pleased when Wolverine reacted like the savage he was at that time. To paraphrase Cyclops, "That's it fella. No subtlety at all to his attack. Just a head-on charge." Wolverine was all adamantium claws, bad attitude and mayhem at that time. But after having journeyed to Japan and meeting Mariko, another side of Wolverine not seen before, began to surface. For some reason...in some way, this berserker "Weapon X" lunatic became something of a Samurai warrior, complete with methods of meditating for inner peace and refined fighting techniques....somethng he didn't have when he fought T'Challa in "Contest Of Champions I". The rough-talking, rough-housing malcontent Wolverine suddenly becomes Kitty Pryde's "sensei" and ushers her into her "Shadowcat" persona.

What-is-up-with-that?



The constant evolution of Wolvie really does change things, like you said, he was the beserker, than the samurai, and now we know that Wolvie has been seeing action for the better part of a hundred years.  Think about it.  He has like 60 to 80 years of intense combat training and actual combat experience in every form of fighting there is.  In hand to hand combat, no one should be able to equal him (unless they can out power him).  I mean, how many years of training does Shang Chi or Iron Fist or Cap or even dare I say BP have?  Twenty, twenty-five at the most (and Cap doesn't even come close to that).  How many years do they have of life and death struggle? (Because training, even training by the best, isn't the same thing as actual life and death struggle.)  And Wolvie has two or three times that.  (Especially now that he has all his memories restored.)  (On top of that, in that recent issue where they spoke of Wolvie immortality, it seemed to me that they might be saying that he's even older than we think.)  He should be unstoppable when fighting equally powerful foes.

Fortunately, this is comics and that logic doesn't matter much, unless the writer wants it to.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2006, 09:36:29 pm »
Now back to Wolverine for a minute. This character is either a perpetual retcon or one that is constantly evolving. Initially, Wolverine's "berserker rage" and "snikt" was what defined him. Cyclops illustrated this best when after the X-Men had been put through the ringer and badly shaken by Moira McTaggert's mutant son, "Proteus", Cyclops staged an impromptu battle to "test" the battle readiness of those X-Men affected, Nightcrawler, Wolverine and Storm. Cyclops was able to goad Wolverine into attacking him and was pleased when Wolverine reacted like the savage he was at that time. To paraphrase Cyclops, "That's it fella. No subtlety at all to his attack. Just a head-on charge." Wolverine was all adamantium claws, bad attitude and mayhem at that time. But after having journeyed to Japan and meeting Mariko, another side of Wolverine not seen before, began to surface. For some reason...in some way, this berserker "Weapon X" lunatic became something of a Samurai warrior, complete with methods of meditating for inner peace and refined fighting techniques....somethng he didn't have when he fought T'Challa in "Contest Of Champions I". The rough-talking, rough-housing malcontent Wolverine suddenly becomes Kitty Pryde's "sensei" and ushers her into her "Shadowcat" persona.

What-is-up-with-that?



The constant evolution of Wolvie really does change things, like you said, he was the beserker, than the samurai, and now we know that Wolvie has been seeing action for the better part of a hundred years.  Think about it.  He has like 60 to 80 years of intense combat training and actual combat experience in every form of fighting there is.  In hand to hand combat, no one should be able to equal him (unless they can out power him).  I mean, how many years of training does Shang Chi or Iron Fist or Cap or even dare I say BP have?  Twenty, twenty-five at the most (and Cap doesn't even come close to that).  How many years do they have of life and death struggle? (Because training, even training by the best, isn't the same thing as actual life and death struggle.)  And Wolvie has two or three times that.  (Especially now that he has all his memories restored.)  (On top of that, in that recent issue where they spoke of Wolvie immortality, it seemed to me that they might be saying that he's even older than we think.)  He should be unstoppable when fighting equally powerful foes.

Fortunately, this is comics and that logic doesn't matter much, unless the writer wants it to.


ya know,i've given that matter alotta thought,as I am also a die hard Wolvie fan,and when my friends (who bleed adamantium) and I discussed the issue,it's come down to me about how the powers of each person distinctly and permanently affects their fighting style.For instance,as long as Wolvie doesn't run into anything that can overtax his healing ability,then he doesn't have much reason to change and devleope seriously skilled defensive abilities because he can't really be hurt by most folks anyway.On the other hand,he'd have every reason to develope his offensive and maybe skulking/sneaking/stealth approach,because both of these play into his strengths...his offensive claws and his super-senses and his hunting instincts and of course the biggie...his berserker rage.

Captaion America is the epitome of the super-soldier program,and the living icon that represents the best ideals of America.Not only is he physically stronger,quicker,more agile,more dexterous,etc. than Wolvie is,he had bee ntrained against super powered threats since day one (THE INVADERS) and he'd bee ntrained to literally take out platoons solo because of the war effort.If there was anybody he received the ultimate crash course in becoming a one man army,that person would be Steve Rogers.He received training facing threats that Wolverine literally predates,therefore I would say that CAP's out the gate exposure to near pinnacle human threats and superhuman threats really and seriously amplifies many times the learning curve he has gone through vis-a-vis Logan.Or should I say,James,lol.

Because of his training,right out the gate CAP developed a tremendous fighting style that was sufficient to defeat all obstacles except ASSIRI THE WISE I think it was,and we shall see that SSIRI had a tremendous and unfair advantage on CAP that probably continues to this dayfor our very own TCHALLA.But in regards to skil ldevelopment and style development,CAP had the shield from DAY ONE and he's not blessed with adamantium claws,skeleton,super senses or an accelerated healing factor,so CAP PERFORCE had to develope and refine defensive skills that just  aren't as needed for Wolvie..and he had to sharpen and hone those skills and abilities to extremely high degrees because he was expected to take down platoons solo,penetrate alien bases and things like that...DURING WW II.Whe ntechnology wasn't really advanced like now (and which is still a pittance compared to alien tech).After that,Cap went and lead the Avengers for Chrissakes...this guy squared off with everybody from Batman to Galactus.He honed his skills and style fighting almost nonstop superpowered groups of villains and hordes of threats of every kind.I think that qualitatively,Captain America has faced moe lethal foes that we know of than both Logan and BP combined.This consistent very exceptional and extraordinary combat experience and development is only surpassed by say...people like Thor and Hercules,whom are literally gods of strength and war to many of their respective peoples back in olden times. To his everlasting glory and credit,Cap also squared off with these guys and demons and everything and anything else you can think of..and he took out 98% of these guys without need for a rematch.
All of these things helped to mandate that CAP develope a virtually impregnable fighting style.

Now,if anything BP should be the one with the total and invincible fighting style.

Here is a man who is the descendant of a people whom have never lost or tied in a battle with anyone...in their thousand plus year history.Now stop and think of that.We've seen both CAP and LOGAN lose to exceptionally dangerous foes during their tenure with us.Sabertooth comes to mind,and Primus leaps to mind...as Primus was the first being I ever saw that nearly killed CAP back in the day.After one thousand years of taking on all comers of all shapes and sizes and all numbers...WAKANDA has never lost or tied with ANYONE.Never ever.Even the death of TCHAKA I find to be a bit difficult to swallow,despite Klaw's preparations,because I think TCHAKA would've had tech that would've uncovered Klaw's attempts to hide,and TChaka is so thoroughly the superior to Klaw that he would've straight mauled Klaw in the merest moments.I think that injuring TChalla like Klaw did woudl have ENSURED Klaw's death,as the infuriated TChaka would've spared no effort in his determination to murder his foe.Unfortunately,that incident is virtually irreversible canon,and thus we have to overlook it for the sake of the story that launches our boy TChalla the way that it does.Now,TCHALLA continues the saga of the warriors supreme whom reside in WAKANDA,as he has no losses and no ties with only one "unfinished contest" (versus Doom) on his record.Everybody else got served and served fast as hell.In fact,we all know that if Doom were ever stupid enough to face TCHALLA man to man without tech,DOOM would be eviscerated in mere moments.Anybody who manhandles Karnak like that will put a whoopin on Doom that'll make him wish he was BACK in Hell,ya heard? I mean,DOOM was losing the tech battle,too...so he was gonna lose pretty much no matter what,unless BP volunteered to relent,which is what happened.Both sides broke off hostilites.

But BP's style is the result of a thousand years of undefeated warriiorship tested in every way against every foe,and refined and approved by The Panther God.BP would be the ultimate in feral cunning,brilliant brutality,gorgeous gut wrenching grace,untouchable tactics,unanswerable power,unstoppable speed,and the very incarnation of flawless technique.He would be the incarnation of the greatest combative abilities of the greatest warriors that Earth has ever known,and he would be groomed to take this position.Logan wasn't groomed since birth to take the mantle of the greatest warriors of the planet,with the sum total resources of a highly advanced spritual/technological/warrior holistic culture that spans back some 1500 years or more that has the blessings of a mysterious extradimensional Panther God for the sole purpose of making a selected person into the summit of mental,physical and spiritual perfection.BP's defensive skills should make him practically impregnable,that's why pretty much nobody except DOOM managed to land a blow on him.He's just far too good to be caught by almost anything or anyone. His offensive skills should be so far off the scales that he should make a mockery,a joke,of 90% of anybody who wants to act froggy and jump.

at least that's my take on it...
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2006, 05:54:58 am »

ya know,i've given that matter alotta thought,as I am also a die hard Wolvie fan,and when my friends (who bleed adamantium) and I discussed the issue,it's come down to me about how the powers of each person distinctly and permanently affects their fighting style.For instance,as long as Wolvie doesn't run into anything that can overtax his healing ability,then he doesn't have much reason to change and devleope seriously skilled defensive abilities because he can't really be hurt by most folks anyway.On the other hand,he'd have every reason to develope his offensive and maybe skulking/sneaking/stealth approach,because both of these play into his strengths...his offensive claws and his super-senses and his hunting instincts and of course the biggie...his berserker rage.

Captaion America is the epitome of the super-soldier program,and the living icon that represents the best ideals of America.Not only is he physically stronger,quicker,more agile,more dexterous,etc. than Wolvie is,he had bee ntrained against super powered threats since day one (THE INVADERS) and he'd bee ntrained to literally take out platoons solo because of the war effort.If there was anybody he received the ultimate crash course in becoming a one man army,that person would be Steve Rogers.He received training facing threats that Wolverine literally predates,therefore I would say that CAP's out the gate exposure to near pinnacle human threats and superhuman threats really and seriously amplifies many times the learning curve he has gone through vis-a-vis Logan.Or should I say,James,lol.

Because of his training,right out the gate CAP developed a tremendous fighting style that was sufficient to defeat all obstacles except ASSIRI THE WISE I think it was,and we shall see that SSIRI had a tremendous and unfair advantage on CAP that probably continues to this dayfor our very own TCHALLA.But in regards to skil ldevelopment and style development,CAP had the shield from DAY ONE and he's not blessed with adamantium claws,skeleton,super senses or an accelerated healing factor,so CAP PERFORCE had to develope and refine defensive skills that just  aren't as needed for Wolvie..and he had to sharpen and hone those skills and abilities to extremely high degrees because he was expected to take down platoons solo,penetrate alien bases and things like that...DURING WW II.Whe ntechnology wasn't really advanced like now (and which is still a pittance compared to alien tech).After that,Cap went and lead the Avengers for Chrissakes...this guy squared off with everybody from Batman to Galactus.He honed his skills and style fighting almost nonstop superpowered groups of villains and hordes of threats of every kind.I think that qualitatively,Captain America has faced moe lethal foes that we know of than both Logan and BP combined.This consistent very exceptional and extraordinary combat experience and development is only surpassed by say...people like Thor and Hercules,whom are literally gods of strength and war to many of their respective peoples back in olden times. To his everlasting glory and credit,Cap also squared off with these guys and demons and everything and anything else you can think of..and he took out 98% of these guys without need for a rematch.
All of these things helped to mandate that CAP develope a virtually impregnable fighting style.

Now,if anything BP should be the one with the total and invincible fighting style.

Here is a man who is the descendant of a people whom have never lost or tied in a battle with anyone...in their thousand plus year history.Now stop and think of that.We've seen both CAP and LOGAN lose to exceptionally dangerous foes during their tenure with us.Sabertooth comes to mind,and Primus leaps to mind...as Primus was the first being I ever saw that nearly killed CAP back in the day.After one thousand years of taking on all comers of all shapes and sizes and all numbers...WAKANDA has never lost or tied with ANYONE.Never ever.Even the death of TCHAKA I find to be a bit difficult to swallow,despite Klaw's preparations,because I think TCHAKA would've had tech that would've uncovered Klaw's attempts to hide,and TChaka is so thoroughly the superior to Klaw that he would've straight mauled Klaw in the merest moments.I think that injuring TChalla like Klaw did woudl have ENSURED Klaw's death,as the infuriated TChaka would've spared no effort in his determination to murder his foe.Unfortunately,that incident is virtually irreversible canon,and thus we have to overlook it for the sake of the story that launches our boy TChalla the way that it does.Now,TCHALLA continues the saga of the warriors supreme whom reside in WAKANDA,as he has no losses and no ties with only one "unfinished contest" (versus Doom) on his record.Everybody else got served and served fast as hell.In fact,we all know that if Doom were ever stupid enough to face TCHALLA man to man without tech,DOOM would be eviscerated in mere moments.Anybody who manhandles Karnak like that will put a whoopin on Doom that'll make him wish he was BACK in Hell,ya heard? I mean,DOOM was losing the tech battle,too...so he was gonna lose pretty much no matter what,unless BP volunteered to relent,which is what happened.Both sides broke off hostilites.

But BP's style is the result of a thousand years of undefeated warriiorship tested in every way against every foe,and refined and approved by The Panther God.BP would be the ultimate in feral cunning,brilliant brutality,gorgeous gut wrenching grace,untouchable tactics,unanswerable power,unstoppable speed,and the very incarnation of flawless technique.He would be the incarnation of the greatest combative abilities of the greatest warriors that Earth has ever known,and he would be groomed to take this position.Logan wasn't groomed since birth to take the mantle of the greatest warriors of the planet,with the sum total resources of a highly advanced spritual/technological/warrior holistic culture that spans back some 1500 years or more that has the blessings of a mysterious extradimensional Panther God for the sole purpose of making a selected person into the summit of mental,physical and spiritual perfection.BP's defensive skills should make him practically impregnable,that's why pretty much nobody except DOOM managed to land a blow on him.He's just far too good to be caught by almost anything or anyone. His offensive skills should be so far off the scales that he should make a mockery,a joke,of 90% of anybody who wants to act froggy and jump.

at least that's my take on it...

Just a few comments:  Wolverine though has obviously learned to fight in a variety of ways.  He was part of another super-soldier program so he's had the same kind of training that Cap has had, but probably more of it.  With his loss of memory, he wasn't aware of his healing factors or his claws at times in his life so he learned to fight without depending on them.  The samurii style is very different than the beserker style.  So, he breaks that mold.

Plus I would argue that real world combat trumps even the best training.  So sixty to eighty years of fighting for your life trumps 25 years of intense training.  And when one has both, he trumps people who have less training and actual experience.

As far as BP goes--I really think the long line of unbeaten warriors is really not all that relevent.  BP can have all the best teachers and training in the world, but he is starting from scratch.  Every muscle and reflex has to be trained from scratch. Combat skill is not like technical knowledge that allow the next generation to skip steps.  In combat, he has to learn everythign from the beginning.  And even with the best teachers, his dad could still be twice the fighter he ever is, even though he's from an earlier generation.  History of the people help, but it really isn't a deciding factor. 

Plus one can argue that a history of being "undefeated" is actually a detriment, because if you never have been defeated, you don't know how to recover and handle defeat. 

BUT as I said, this is comic books so this logic doesn't apply or Thor who has thousands of years of combat experience coming from a long line of warriors, should always beat the Hulk in combat.  The hulk's strength matchs thor; thor has a hundred other powers.  The hulk has no training whatsoever, and yet at every encounter, the Hulk either stalemates or takes Thor. 


Offline sinjection

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2006, 06:05:32 am »

The constant evolution of Wolvie really does change things, like you said, he was the beserker, than the samurai, and now we know that Wolvie has been seeing action for the better part of a hundred years.  Think about it.  He has like 60 to 80 years of intense combat training and actual combat experience in every form of fighting there is.  In hand to hand combat, no one should be able to equal him (unless they can out power him).  I mean, how many years of training does Shang Chi or Iron Fist or Cap or even dare I say BP have?  Twenty, twenty-five at the most (and Cap doesn't even come close to that).  How many years do they have of life and death struggle? (Because training, even training by the best, isn't the same thing as actual life and death struggle.)  And Wolvie has two or three times that.  (Especially now that he has all his memories restored.)  (On top of that, in that recent issue where they spoke of Wolvie immortality, it seemed to me that they might be saying that he's even older than we think.)  He should be unstoppable when fighting equally powerful foes.

Fortunately, this is comics and that logic doesn't matter much, unless the writer wants it to.

What you say makes sense, but I have to ask. How is it that in all of the centuries(?) that Wolverine has been alive, no one he has ever fought in combat action, thought to dismember and/or desecrate/disembowel his corpse? This is assuming of course, that any of his many opponents were able to render him "dead" or as near death as is possible to have that opportunity to behead him. I realize that Wolverine was able to heal from being literally ripped in half by the Hulk. I didn't read the book in which this happened, I simply gathered as much from reading the posts of others. Could the "immortal" Wolverine have healed himself if his head had been separated from his body?** Uh oh**

I think it is unfair to say the least, that X-Fans, many Wolverine fans, many "continuity hardliners" and others of that sort, go into conniptions over the improvements Hudlin has made to the Panther, but seem to approve of and applaud the fact that a character who at one time was a bit-player at best, is now an immortal mutant like Apocalypse and Nightcrawler's demonic-looking, mutant father. Mystique herself is better than 80 years old. That body's still kickin' though  ;) Wolverine can "evolve". Wolverine's origin can be adapted to allow for the changes in his story and character, and only a few fans complain about this.

supreme would know better about this topic, but to the point you made about Wolverine's years and years of practical combat experience, I agree with you that given his centuries of fighting different people with different fighting styles, Wolverine should be a warrior second to none. However, in the X-Men issue when he and his fellow X-Men were severely tested and spooked by Proteus, Wolverine exhibited none of that vast fighting knowledge and ability. Cyclops tossed him around like a rag doll. I suppose his "memory loss" would probably explain away his lack of fighting ability at that time. Some if not most, "continuity hardliners" might buy this explanation. Those same "hardliners" probably wouldn't be as charitable where Hudlin and his improvements on the Panther are concerned.

** I've just remembered something about Wolverine being able to heal from having his adamantium skeleton ripped from his body by Magneto. If he could heal from that, it seems probable, but not possible that he could heal from being beheaded.**
« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 06:29:36 am by sinjection »
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline sinjection

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2006, 06:22:10 am »

ya know,i've given that matter alotta thought,as I am also a die hard Wolvie fan,and when my friends (who bleed adamantium) and I discussed the issue,it's come down to me about how the powers of each person distinctly and permanently affects their fighting style.

supreme, you know I'm going to read and savor your post in its entirety, but for now, I'd like to comment on the first sentence of your post.

Though it might not look like it now, I too was once a fan of Wolverine. The course of my Wolverine fandom was like this. I went from not much liking the character, to eventually thinking he was cool, and from there, to thinking he was extremely cool and now, back to not liking his character much  :D

The part I liked about Wolverine - aside from the obvious thing with the claws - was the development of his personality, specifically where it involves his friendship with Nightcrawler. Initially, Wolverine was a surly loner who didn't seem to much care for any of his fellow X-Men. But as time went on, it seemed to me that his attitude was only a front and a means of self-protection. I really liked Wolverine when the X-Men encountered and conquered the Brood for the first time. I liked the way he respected Kurt's religious faith and the way Nightcrawler showed that he could be as much of a carouser as Wolverine - at least where drinking spirits and having a good time was concerned. I liked the way Wolverine shielded Kurt's body and secured it to the ground during Storm's desperate and dynamically fierce struggle against Proteus. She hit him with a hurricane and he was still coming on. Later, I liked the way in which Wolverine became a guide and companion for Kitty and Colossus. Only Wolverine can call Kitty "punkin" and get away with it these days. I even like the fact that he is virtually indispensable where the X-Men are concerned.

What I find I don't like about Wolverine is the fact that his character can be changed at any given moment if it will make him a more appealing and exciting character, even if those changes/adjustments/improvements don't seem to make much sense at the time.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 06:30:37 am by sinjection »
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2006, 06:47:37 am »
I just realized a flaw in my thinking--something I'm not alone one, when we get into these kinds of discussions. 

We state that so-so has x numbers of years training; y number of years of combat; plus this ability or gimmic or history. 

We treat combat like this:  1 plus 2 equals 3.  Whenever these "vs" threads pop up, that's the basis and logic.  But we forget something, in combat 1 plus 2 can equal 12, 3, 17 and 284 at any given time.  And I'm not speaking about x-factors like where the battle occurs or did so and so eat breakfeast today.

There is also the "person" factor.  That quality a certain person brings to the combat that can trump all "on-paper" logic.  I think Captain America and Batman are the premiere examples of this.  Logically speaking, Cap should not win, like he does.  But he has this "person factor" that trumps the fact that "on paper" his opponent should win.  Spider-man has this too--so many times, Spidey beats people who should easily win over him.   This person factor cannot be quantified, illustrated or justified.  It just is, but whenever we get into these debates, we somehow forget about it.


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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2006, 07:11:49 am »
I just realized a flaw in my thinking--something I'm not alone one, when we get into these kinds of discussions. 

We state that so-so has x numbers of years training; y number of years of combat; plus this ability or gimmic or history. 

We treat combat like this:  1 plus 2 equals 3.  Whenever these "vs" threads pop up, that's the basis and logic.  But we forget something, in combat 1 plus 2 can equal 12, 3, 17 and 284 at any given time.  And I'm not speaking about x-factors like where the battle occurs or did so and so eat breakfeast today.

There is also the "person" factor.  That quality a certain person brings to the combat that can trump all "on-paper" logic.  I think Captain America and Batman are the premiere examples of this.  Logically speaking, Cap should not win, like he does.  But he has this "person factor" that trumps the fact that "on paper" his opponent should win.  Spider-man has this too--so many times, Spidey beats people who should easily win over him.   This person factor cannot be quantified, illustrated or justified.  It just is, but whenever we get into these debates, we somehow forget about it.


Spider-Man's fighting skills are augmented by his "spider powers".

Captain America and Batman have fighting skills that are the result of highly-intensive training.

Those three characters tend to fight the same way everytime. They may adapt a strategy during a protracted battle with a particular foe and make necessary adjustments during the battle to give them a better chance at winning, but essentially, they are who and what they are. I've never really gotten into Civil War, but I do know that Iron Man and Captain America finally faced off against one another and it didn't really go too well for Captain America. My understanding is that Iron Man was so successful against Cap in battle because he'd programmed his armor to anticipate and respond to Captain America's fighting style. Captain America seemed to be fighting a super-powered, armored version of himself. He couldn't win.

Wolverine was a berserker. He received intense training during his very long lifetime, but until somewhat recently, whenever Wolverine and fighting were thought of together, the mind associated "snikt" with beserker rage and a wild, undisciplined fighting style. This is what Wolverine seems to be to me. What a person learns during their lifetime usually aids them in their many endeavors. But what a person is will always be with them and always influence their thinking and behavior. Wolverine was a berserk brawler when he went after Wendigo and the Hulk. Wolverine was a berserk brawler during his earliest days as an X-Man. It seems berserker brawling is what Wolverine does and he says he is the best at what he does.
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Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2006, 07:12:21 am »
There is also the "person" factor.  That quality a certain person brings to the combat that can trump all "on-paper" logic.  I think Captain America and Batman are the premiere examples of this.  Logically speaking, Cap should not win, like he does.  But he has this "person factor" that trumps the fact that "on paper" his opponent should win.  Spider-man has this too--so many times, Spidey beats people who should easily win over him.   This person factor cannot be quantified, illustrated or justified.  It just is, but whenever we get into these debates, we somehow forget about it.
I've been thinking the same thing, Kip.  For instance, the value placed on experience.  All else being equal, more experience at doing something is generally better.  But all else is very rarely equal.  To cite a ridiculous example, I've been playing basketball longer than Chris Paul has been alive...  Talent might have something to do with it.

It seems to me that combat has so many more variables than sports.  Anybody can be taken if they are caught off-guard.  Also, quickness arises from a complex set of interactions the most important of which is probably anticipation, not reaction time.  Some guys seem to know what their opponent is going to do before the opponent does.  That sounds a lot like BP to me.

Just tangential thoughts.  Anyway, I've enjoyed this thread, too.  The speculation is all good fun.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 12:22:33 pm by Curtis Metcalf »
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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2006, 03:02:33 pm »

ya know,i've given that matter alotta thought,as I am also a die hard Wolvie fan,and when my friends (who bleed adamantium) and I discussed the issue,it's come down to me about how the powers of each person distinctly and permanently affects their fighting style.For instance,as long as Wolvie doesn't run into anything that can overtax his healing ability,then he doesn't have much reason to change and devleope seriously skilled defensive abilities because he can't really be hurt by most folks anyway.On the other hand,he'd have every reason to develope his offensive and maybe skulking/sneaking/stealth approach,because both of these play into his strengths...his offensive claws and his super-senses and his hunting instincts and of course the biggie...his berserker rage.

Captaion America is the epitome of the super-soldier program,and the living icon that represents the best ideals of America.Not only is he physically stronger,quicker,more agile,more dexterous,etc. than Wolvie is,he had bee ntrained against super powered threats since day one (THE INVADERS) and he'd bee ntrained to literally take out platoons solo because of the war effort.If there was anybody he received the ultimate crash course in becoming a one man army,that person would be Steve Rogers.He received training facing threats that Wolverine literally predates,therefore I would say that CAP's out the gate exposure to near pinnacle human threats and superhuman threats really and seriously amplifies many times the learning curve he has gone through vis-a-vis Logan.Or should I say,James,lol.

Because of his training,right out the gate CAP developed a tremendous fighting style that was sufficient to defeat all obstacles except ASSIRI THE WISE I think it was,and we shall see that SSIRI had a tremendous and unfair advantage on CAP that probably continues to this dayfor our very own TCHALLA.But in regards to skil ldevelopment and style development,CAP had the shield from DAY ONE and he's not blessed with adamantium claws,skeleton,super senses or an accelerated healing factor,so CAP PERFORCE had to develope and refine defensive skills that just  aren't as needed for Wolvie..and he had to sharpen and hone those skills and abilities to extremely high degrees because he was expected to take down platoons solo,penetrate alien bases and things like that...DURING WW II.Whe ntechnology wasn't really advanced like now (and which is still a pittance compared to alien tech).After that,Cap went and lead the Avengers for Chrissakes...this guy squared off with everybody from Batman to Galactus.He honed his skills and style fighting almost nonstop superpowered groups of villains and hordes of threats of every kind.I think that qualitatively,Captain America has faced moe lethal foes that we know of than both Logan and BP combined.This consistent very exceptional and extraordinary combat experience and development is only surpassed by say...people like Thor and Hercules,whom are literally gods of strength and war to many of their respective peoples back in olden times. To his everlasting glory and credit,Cap also squared off with these guys and demons and everything and anything else you can think of..and he took out 98% of these guys without need for a rematch.
All of these things helped to mandate that CAP develope a virtually impregnable fighting style.

Now,if anything BP should be the one with the total and invincible fighting style.

Here is a man who is the descendant of a people whom have never lost or tied in a battle with anyone...in their thousand plus year history.Now stop and think of that.We've seen both CAP and LOGAN lose to exceptionally dangerous foes during their tenure with us.Sabertooth comes to mind,and Primus leaps to mind...as Primus was the first being I ever saw that nearly killed CAP back in the day.After one thousand years of taking on all comers of all shapes and sizes and all numbers...WAKANDA has never lost or tied with ANYONE.Never ever.Even the death of TCHAKA I find to be a bit difficult to swallow,despite Klaw's preparations,because I think TCHAKA would've had tech that would've uncovered Klaw's attempts to hide,and TChaka is so thoroughly the superior to Klaw that he would've straight mauled Klaw in the merest moments.I think that injuring TChalla like Klaw did woudl have ENSURED Klaw's death,as the infuriated TChaka would've spared no effort in his determination to murder his foe.Unfortunately,that incident is virtually irreversible canon,and thus we have to overlook it for the sake of the story that launches our boy TChalla the way that it does.Now,TCHALLA continues the saga of the warriors supreme whom reside in WAKANDA,as he has no losses and no ties with only one "unfinished contest" (versus Doom) on his record.Everybody else got served and served fast as hell.In fact,we all know that if Doom were ever stupid enough to face TCHALLA man to man without tech,DOOM would be eviscerated in mere moments.Anybody who manhandles Karnak like that will put a whoopin on Doom that'll make him wish he was BACK in Hell,ya heard? I mean,DOOM was losing the tech battle,too...so he was gonna lose pretty much no matter what,unless BP volunteered to relent,which is what happened.Both sides broke off hostilites.

But BP's style is the result of a thousand years of undefeated warriiorship tested in every way against every foe,and refined and approved by The Panther God.BP would be the ultimate in feral cunning,brilliant brutality,gorgeous gut wrenching grace,untouchable tactics,unanswerable power,unstoppable speed,and the very incarnation of flawless technique.He would be the incarnation of the greatest combative abilities of the greatest warriors that Earth has ever known,and he would be groomed to take this position.Logan wasn't groomed since birth to take the mantle of the greatest warriors of the planet,with the sum total resources of a highly advanced spritual/technological/warrior holistic culture that spans back some 1500 years or more that has the blessings of a mysterious extradimensional Panther God for the sole purpose of making a selected person into the summit of mental,physical and spiritual perfection.BP's defensive skills should make him practically impregnable,that's why pretty much nobody except DOOM managed to land a blow on him.He's just far too good to be caught by almost anything or anyone. His offensive skills should be so far off the scales that he should make a mockery,a joke,of 90% of anybody who wants to act froggy and jump.

at least that's my take on it...

Just a few comments:  Wolverine though has obviously learned to fight in a variety of ways.  He was part of another super-soldier program so he's had the same kind of training that Cap has had, but probably more of it.  With his loss of memory, he wasn't aware of his healing factors or his claws at times in his life so he learned to fight without depending on them.  The samurii style is very different than the beserker style.  So, he breaks that mold.

Plus I would argue that real world combat trumps even the best training.  So sixty to eighty years of fighting for your life trumps 25 years of intense training.  And when one has both, he trumps people who have less training and actual experience.

As far as BP goes--I really think the long line of unbeaten warriors is really not all that relevent.  BP can have all the best teachers and training in the world, but he is starting from scratch.  Every muscle and reflex has to be trained from scratch. Combat skill is not like technical knowledge that allow the next generation to skip steps.  In combat, he has to learn everythign from the beginning.  And even with the best teachers, his dad could still be twice the fighter he ever is, even though he's from an earlier generation.  History of the people help, but it really isn't a deciding factor. 

Plus one can argue that a history of being "undefeated" is actually a detriment, because if you never have been defeated, you don't know how to recover and handle defeat. 

BUT as I said, this is comic books so this logic doesn't apply or Thor who has thousands of years of combat experience coming from a long line of warriors, should always beat the Hulk in combat.  The hulk's strength matchs thor; thor has a hundred other powers.  The hulk has no training whatsoever, and yet at every encounter, the Hulk either stalemates or takes Thor. 



Each and every one of the posts on this page makes enormous sense and MUST be accounted for in one's analysis of combat ability.I have a student that is a slow,methodical,rep-it-out learner (in fact I have about a dozen of them) and I have students who seem to be absorbing the lessons faster than I can teach them.At first,the "naturals" eradicate the rep-it-out students in their sparring matches,and it stays that way until about mid-way through their training...and then the rep-it-out types even the score.They use strategy and tactics to overcome the edge that their more athletically gifted opponents have.But in less than a dozen instances have I run into kids who have both in their arsenal,and these people are a marvel to behold.

And in every instance,the training regimen they have received--whether slower learners or faster,whether marvels or also-rans,in EVERY INSTANCE--the difference that made the difference was the combination of the person and the system that they are in.I have taken kids whom were regularly getting whooped upon by the various neighborhood bullies and whom had gone to a gazillion different karate classes and STILL were getting whooped on...and turned them into fighting machines in 3 days.The fastest turnaround I have achieved is taking a kid who was going to fight 75 minutes after I met him.I drilled him for 45 minutes.He dispatched his foe in 5 seconds.

What does this have to do with BP,WOLVE,CAP,SPIDEY and the crew? Everything.

Of everyone mentioned,Thor and Hercules should slaughterhouse ANYBODY.They should whoop off on Hulk,if Hulk's game was that the angrier he becomes the stronger he becomes AND THAT'S ALL THAT HAPPENS.He doesn't get more resilient,quicker,more combatively capable due to limitless ferocious cunning.Thor and Hercules possess strength that has never been measured to a limit,and centuries and centuries of combat against demons,giants,gods,and everything else.Nobody should come close to equalling them,and that's all there is to it.

BP,WOLVE,CAP and SPIDEY are different,though.

SPIDEY is a literal accident.He doesn't have formal training,he learned the way streetfighters learn...by fighting.After years of fighting just about everybody,he's developed a style that works well with him and his abilities,but he gets beaten by highly skilled superpowered martial artists.I remember this was established from back in the day when Killer Shrike liked to have mopped Spidey all over the place (this was with his first MARVEL TEAM UP with BEAST,back in the early 80s) and again when he fced CAP.It was clear that CAP was the superior hand to hand combatant,and SPIDEY said that he couldn't hope to beat CAP man to man,but he might if he fought CAP man to SPIDERman.Even then,CAP had the advantage...

the advantage of fighting more quality opponents for a longer period of time.

This is also what separates CAP and WOLVE.Remember,Wolve wasn't kidnapped and mindwiped for WEAPON X until many years later...in between he basically fought humans and low to mid-level mutants,although nobody knew what mutants were back then.CAP came out fighting the very best t hat  this country could literally afford or arrange for him to fight virtually immediately. He also regularly engaged in live fire exercises with THE INVADERS.This is a decisive advantage because Wolverine basically spent the first century of his life fighting regular and trained humans,and wans't menaced by superhuman threats until much later.What helped you whoop the local ninja is not going to stand you in good stead when you face the likes of Sabertooth and Omega Red...you have to get in with people like that and develope your fighting method further.The same principals that allowed you to win in a point fighting tournament will help you win in a MMA match,but you have to develope the MMA training methods and be prepared to deal with that totlally different level of demands and performance and pressure...but a punch is stil la punch,a kick is still a ckikc,and a snikt is still a snikt.You just have to do it better,harder,faster...differently...than you did it previously.The difference between CAP and WOLVE is that CAP was born to a superior system and faced superior opoponents immediately...Wolverine was not.He was kidnapped,mindwiped,given an adamantium skeleton,reprogrammed,and released as an agent to do the bidding of WEAPON X.Captain America was developed around the whole concept of superior performance,and superior morality as the counter to the propaganda power of THE RED SKULL...he had superpowered villains squarely in his sighrts before he even became a REALITY.He would be afforder all the goodies that one of the most powerful countries of the world could afford him.he started out with an enormous advantage in that regard.Couple this with the incredible person t hat STEVE ROGERS always had the potential to be and became after he underwent the self-developement that is inevitable during his grueling training and subsequent superhero adventures,and you have a one of a kind man.

Now TCHALLA had all the advantages that CAP had,plus 2 more which I find to be decisive.Unlike SPIDEY and WOLVE,BP was trained and groomed since birth to be the incarnation of the ideal of a whole country comprised of holistic warriors...people whom prized the highest abilities of mind,body and spirit combined.People whom never knew loss or a tie,and people whom had at their command unsurpassed resources and econoic clout.This means that TCHALLA was born into a society that had proven itself to be the very best warrors that humantiy has ever had,and developed a method to pass down that level of unequaled scholarship,spirituality,technology,and warriorship that has accumulated for nearly 2000 years.Now reflect on that.Pause and consider the enormous,enormous gravity of that statement.Built into this warrior regime was the method to ensure that one produced warriors SUPERIOR TO THOSE WARRIORS WHO CAME BEFORE...because the very best warriors of the planet mentor you UNTIL YOU'RE ABLE TO BEAT THEM.This isn't a situation wherein we're taking a general group of people and saying okay we will train you and if you pass you can be BP.No.YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE BEST WARRIORS TO BECOME THE NEXT BP.So,perforce,the argument that my manz KIP made (which makes lotsa sense) about a guy not being half the fighter his brother or father or uncle is isn't valid here because this isn't a question of someone being allowed to become the BP but NOT being able to take the current BP in combat...ONE OF THE EXTREMELY DEMANDING REQUIREMENTS YOU HAVE TO MEET ON YOUR WAY TO BEING BP IS THAT YOU COULD ONLY BECOME THE BP IF YOU BEAT THE CURRENT BP IN COMBAT.Therefore,the reigning BP has already proven himself to be combatively without peer in all the land. He is,in fact,the baddest man in the country.Period point blank.This also means,perforce,that the reigning BP is superior to all previous incarnations,with the only possible question being raised about TSHAN and TCHALLA because they became BPs only after the murder of TCHAKA.The current BP,however,beyond dispute,is borne of the same system and defeated his uncle,whom,we must remind us all,was second only to his brother in combat.That means that TCHALLA is equal to,slightly superior to,or slightly inferior to his father in combat skill.My understanding of RH's interpretation of our boy TCHALLA is that he is NOT INFERIOR to his father.But that is only my totally subjective interpretation...

What does this have to do with real world combat? again...EVERYTHING.

This is a nation that has faced every possible threat,and even went beyond CAP's initial experiences because not only have they faced aliens and invaders (remember vibranium was supposed to have been found in a meteor that eventually became protected by the black panthers in the immediate vicinity,and that supposedly lead to the Black Panther religion.At some point a priori to this THE PANTHER GOD itself had to have been a part of the equation) each and every BP had to face THE PANTHER GOD himself,and receive his blessing.SO DID HIS WIFE.This is of inestimable value when it comes to evaluating combatants.Again,this means that the various BPs have become perforce familiar with mysticism and magic,and have developed the methods of dealing with these adversaries.Why do you think the local evil bad mojo man hasn't come over and taken over Wakanda? Because the BP will lay the ultimate smackdown on them, and they knew it.Furthermore,they risked the wrath of THE PANTHER GOD,and nobody wants any part of him.So...from birth...TCHALLA was raised by the greatest warriors in human history,whom developed a method that ensured that their successor would be greater than them in every way that could be Earthly measured,and then they sent the aspirant for the ultimate sanction...from the PANTHER GOD.If THE PANTEHR GOD was smoove--yes I said SMOOVE with a "V"--with it,then the aspirant became the OFFICIAL NEW BP,and had his soul linked to THE PANTHER GOD'S soul,and Lord knows what other mystic options were available at that point. But if you got enough magic mojo to back down MEPHISTO,you're a baaaad man,like ALI would say.

This is why he is better than CAP,WOLVE,and SPIDEY.The quality of Wolve's opposition was basically inferior until the upsurge of superhumans came along,and even then he didn't develope refined fighting methods until he went to Japan.In his latest incarnation,he seems to have an admixture of refined fighting ability and berserker rage,as he displayed against the SILVER SAMURAI (refined fighting ability) and THE WINTER SOLDIER (berserker rage).TCHALLA was born into a world wherein the greatest and most refined combat methods have always been--Wakanda--with the world's most storied and only undefeated warriors,and he came from a line that would only allow ascension if he proved himself superior to each and every one of the greatest of the greatest who came before him by defeating the "latest" greatest of the greatest...that would've been his father,but it turned out to be his uncle (anybody smell a plot device in here? I do...as TCHALLA could always consider himself to be lesser than hsi great father he came before him). Furthermore,TCHALLA had to prove himself to be the smartest of the smartest,the bravest of the bravest,etcetera,AND THEN he had to get the approbation of the MYSTERIOUS PANTHER GOD,which has its own methods of determining what it wishes.

TCHALLA is the baddest dude not named THOR or some such around.And that's how it should be...
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2006, 05:03:51 pm »
I wrote this reply, signed off and then it hit me--I am getting off the point; actually I lost the point.  So, I deleted it and wrote this.

Comic book battles, actually fiction battles, rarely ever follow logic so Cap can beat BP even though on paper everything says BP should win.  Let's face it, in fiction two things usually determine the victor in hero on hero fights:  popularity of said character and/or the introduction or re-introduction of a character.  It's the main reason why Batman and Wolverine win.

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2006, 09:43:29 am »
Each and every one of the posts on this page makes enormous sense and MUST be accounted for in one's analysis of combat ability.I have a student that is a slow,methodical,rep-it-out learner (in fact I have about a dozen of them) and I have students who seem to be absorbing the lessons faster than I can teach them.At first,the "naturals" eradicate the rep-it-out students in their sparring matches,and it stays that way until about mid-way through their training...and then the rep-it-out types even the score.They use strategy and tactics to overcome the edge that their more athletically gifted opponents have.But in less than a dozen instances have I run into kids who have both in their arsenal,and these people are a marvel to behold.

And in every instance,the training regimen they have received--whether slower learners or faster,whether marvels or also-rans,in EVERY INSTANCE--the difference that made the difference was the combination of the person and the system that they are in.I have taken kids whom were regularly getting whooped upon by the various neighborhood bullies and whom had gone to a gazillion different karate classes and STILL were getting whooped on...and turned them into fighting machines in 3 days.The fastest turnaround I have achieved is taking a kid who was going to fight 75 minutes after I met him.I drilled him for 45 minutes.He dispatched his foe in 5 seconds.

What does this have to do with BP,WOLVE,CAP,SPIDEY and the crew? Everything.

Of everyone mentioned,Thor and Hercules should slaughterhouse ANYBODY.They should whoop off on Hulk,if Hulk's game was that the angrier he becomes the stronger he becomes AND THAT'S ALL THAT HAPPENS.He doesn't get more resilient,quicker,more combatively capable due to limitless ferocious cunning.Thor and Hercules possess strength that has never been measured to a limit,and centuries and centuries of combat against demons,giants,gods,and everything else.Nobody should come close to equalling them,and that's all there is to it.

BP,WOLVE,CAP and SPIDEY are different,though.

SPIDEY is a literal accident.He doesn't have formal training,he learned the way streetfighters learn...by fighting.After years of fighting just about everybody,he's developed a style that works well with him and his abilities,but he gets beaten by highly skilled superpowered martial artists.I remember this was established from back in the day when Killer Shrike liked to have mopped Spidey all over the place (this was with his first MARVEL TEAM UP with BEAST,back in the early 80s) and again when he fced CAP.It was clear that CAP was the superior hand to hand combatant,and SPIDEY said that he couldn't hope to beat CAP man to man,but he might if he fought CAP man to SPIDERman.Even then,CAP had the advantage...

the advantage of fighting more quality opponents for a longer period of time.

This is also what separates CAP and WOLVE.Remember,Wolve wasn't kidnapped and mindwiped for WEAPON X until many years later...in between he basically fought humans and low to mid-level mutants,although nobody knew what mutants were back then.CAP came out fighting the very best t hat  this country could literally afford or arrange for him to fight virtually immediately. He also regularly engaged in live fire exercises with THE INVADERS.This is a decisive advantage because Wolverine basically spent the first century of his life fighting regular and trained humans,and wans't menaced by superhuman threats until much later.What helped you whoop the local ninja is not going to stand you in good stead when you face the likes of Sabertooth and Omega Red...you have to get in with people like that and develope your fighting method further.The same principals that allowed you to win in a point fighting tournament will help you win in a MMA match,but you have to develope the MMA training methods and be prepared to deal with that totlally different level of demands and performance and pressure...but a punch is stil la punch,a kick is still a ckikc,and a snikt is still a snikt.You just have to do it better,harder,faster...differently...than you did it previously.The difference between CAP and WOLVE is that CAP was born to a superior system and faced superior opoponents immediately...Wolverine was not.He was kidnapped,mindwiped,given an adamantium skeleton,reprogrammed,and released as an agent to do the bidding of WEAPON X.Captain America was developed around the whole concept of superior performance,and superior morality as the counter to the propaganda power of THE RED SKULL...he had superpowered villains squarely in his sighrts before he even became a REALITY.He would be afforder all the goodies that one of the most powerful countries of the world could afford him.he started out with an enormous advantage in that regard.Couple this with the incredible person t hat STEVE ROGERS always had the potential to be and became after he underwent the self-developement that is inevitable during his grueling training and subsequent superhero adventures,and you have a one of a kind man.

Now TCHALLA had all the advantages that CAP had,plus 2 more which I find to be decisive.Unlike SPIDEY and WOLVE,BP was trained and groomed since birth to be the incarnation of the ideal of a whole country comprised of holistic warriors...people whom prized the highest abilities of mind,body and spirit combined.People whom never knew loss or a tie,and people whom had at their command unsurpassed resources and econoic clout.This means that TCHALLA was born into a society that had proven itself to be the very best warrors that humantiy has ever had,and developed a method to pass down that level of unequaled scholarship,spirituality,technology,and warriorship that has accumulated for nearly 2000 years.Now reflect on that.Pause and consider the enormous,enormous gravity of that statement.Built into this warrior regime was the method to ensure that one produced warriors SUPERIOR TO THOSE WARRIORS WHO CAME BEFORE...because the very best warriors of the planet mentor you UNTIL YOU'RE ABLE TO BEAT THEM.This isn't a situation wherein we're taking a general group of people and saying okay we will train you and if you pass you can be BP.No.YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE BEST WARRIORS TO BECOME THE NEXT BP.So,perforce,the argument that my manz KIP made (which makes lotsa sense) about a guy not being half the fighter his brother or father or uncle is isn't valid here because this isn't a question of someone being allowed to become the BP but NOT being able to take the current BP in combat...ONE OF THE EXTREMELY DEMANDING REQUIREMENTS YOU HAVE TO MEET ON YOUR WAY TO BEING BP IS THAT YOU COULD ONLY BECOME THE BP IF YOU BEAT THE CURRENT BP IN COMBAT.Therefore,the reigning BP has already proven himself to be combatively without peer in all the land. He is,in fact,the baddest man in the country.Period point blank.This also means,perforce,that the reigning BP is superior to all previous incarnations,with the only possible question being raised about TSHAN and TCHALLA because they became BPs only after the murder of TCHAKA.The current BP,however,beyond dispute,is borne of the same system and defeated his uncle,whom,we must remind us all,was second only to his brother in combat.That means that TCHALLA is equal to,slightly superior to,or slightly inferior to his father in combat skill.My understanding of RH's interpretation of our boy TCHALLA is that he is NOT INFERIOR to his father.But that is only my totally subjective interpretation...

What does this have to do with real world combat? again...EVERYTHING.

This is a nation that has faced every possible threat,and even went beyond CAP's initial experiences because not only have they faced aliens and invaders (remember vibranium was supposed to have been found in a meteor that eventually became protected by the black panthers in the immediate vicinity,and that supposedly lead to the Black Panther religion.At some point a priori to this THE PANTHER GOD itself had to have been a part of the equation) each and every BP had to face THE PANTHER GOD himself,and receive his blessing.SO DID HIS WIFE.This is of inestimable value when it comes to evaluating combatants.Again,this means that the various BPs have become perforce familiar with mysticism and magic,and have developed the methods of dealing with these adversaries.Why do you think the local evil bad mojo man hasn't come over and taken over Wakanda? Because the BP will lay the ultimate smackdown on them, and they knew it.Furthermore,they risked the wrath of THE PANTHER GOD,and nobody wants any part of him.So...from birth...TCHALLA was raised by the greatest warriors in human history,whom developed a method that ensured that their successor would be greater than them in every way that could be Earthly measured,and then they sent the aspirant for the ultimate sanction...from the PANTHER GOD.If THE PANTEHR GOD was smoove--yes I said SMOOVE with a "V"--with it,then the aspirant became the OFFICIAL NEW BP,and had his soul linked to THE PANTHER GOD'S soul,and Lord knows what other mystic options were available at that point. But if you got enough magic mojo to back down MEPHISTO,you're a baaaad man,like ALI would say.

This is why he is better than CAP,WOLVE,and SPIDEY.The quality of Wolve's opposition was basically inferior until the upsurge of superhumans came along,and even then he didn't develope refined fighting methods until he went to Japan.In his latest incarnation,he seems to have an admixture of refined fighting ability and berserker rage,as he displayed against the SILVER SAMURAI (refined fighting ability) and THE WINTER SOLDIER (berserker rage).TCHALLA was born into a world wherein the greatest and most refined combat methods have always been--Wakanda--with the world's most storied and only undefeated warriors,and he came from a line that would only allow ascension if he proved himself superior to each and every one of the greatest of the greatest who came before him by defeating the "latest" greatest of the greatest...that would've been his father,but it turned out to be his uncle (anybody smell a plot device in here? I do...as TCHALLA could always consider himself to be lesser than hsi great father he came before him). Furthermore,TCHALLA had to prove himself to be the smartest of the smartest,the bravest of the bravest,etcetera,AND THEN he had to get the approbation of the MYSTERIOUS PANTHER GOD,which has its own methods of determining what it wishes.

TCHALLA is the baddest dude not named THOR or some such around.And that's how it should be...

Quote


Does quality of opposition come into the equasion? I ask because Captain America spent the 40's with the Invaders esentially fighting superhumans. He does this virtually non-stop until he gets thrown in suspended animation. Then the Avengers rescue him and the cycle of superhuman ultraviolence continues ;D .

 S.I is quite correct in noting that to be  Black Panther you must defeat the five toughest warriors of a nation of unbeaten asskickers and this regimen would produce in itself a superior fighter even when you that the heart shaped herb and the Panther God out of the equasion.

But nothing in the Wankandan's training regimen could equal the practical experience that years of fighting superhumans gives Captain America though.

But remember T'Challa's a genius. Knowing this, what does he do? His first appearance in Fantastic Four has him luring the FF to Wakanda to test his skills against them.  At the time they are the premere superteam on the planet so if he can take them, he figures to be in pretty good shape.  And he took them.

At worst, T'Challa's is Captain America's equal in combat.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2006, 10:01:45 am »
Each and every one of the posts on this page makes enormous sense and MUST be accounted for in one's analysis of combat ability.I have a student that is a slow,methodical,rep-it-out learner (in fact I have about a dozen of them) and I have students who seem to be absorbing the lessons faster than I can teach them.At first,the "naturals" eradicate the rep-it-out students in their sparring matches,and it stays that way until about mid-way through their training...and then the rep-it-out types even the score.They use strategy and tactics to overcome the edge that their more athletically gifted opponents have.But in less than a dozen instances have I run into kids who have both in their arsenal,and these people are a marvel to behold.

And in every instance,the training regimen they have received--whether slower learners or faster,whether marvels or also-rans,in EVERY INSTANCE--the difference that made the difference was the combination of the person and the system that they are in.I have taken kids whom were regularly getting whooped upon by the various neighborhood bullies and whom had gone to a gazillion different karate classes and STILL were getting whooped on...and turned them into fighting machines in 3 days.The fastest turnaround I have achieved is taking a kid who was going to fight 75 minutes after I met him.I drilled him for 45 minutes.He dispatched his foe in 5 seconds.

What does this have to do with BP,WOLVE,CAP,SPIDEY and the crew? Everything.

Of everyone mentioned,Thor and Hercules should slaughterhouse ANYBODY.They should whoop off on Hulk,if Hulk's game was that the angrier he becomes the stronger he becomes AND THAT'S ALL THAT HAPPENS.He doesn't get more resilient,quicker,more combatively capable due to limitless ferocious cunning.Thor and Hercules possess strength that has never been measured to a limit,and centuries and centuries of combat against demons,giants,gods,and everything else.Nobody should come close to equalling them,and that's all there is to it.

BP,WOLVE,CAP and SPIDEY are different,though.

SPIDEY is a literal accident.He doesn't have formal training,he learned the way streetfighters learn...by fighting.After years of fighting just about everybody,he's developed a style that works well with him and his abilities,but he gets beaten by highly skilled superpowered martial artists.I remember this was established from back in the day when Killer Shrike liked to have mopped Spidey all over the place (this was with his first MARVEL TEAM UP with BEAST,back in the early 80s) and again when he fced CAP.It was clear that CAP was the superior hand to hand combatant,and SPIDEY said that he couldn't hope to beat CAP man to man,but he might if he fought CAP man to SPIDERman.Even then,CAP had the advantage...

the advantage of fighting more quality opponents for a longer period of time.

This is also what separates CAP and WOLVE.Remember,Wolve wasn't kidnapped and mindwiped for WEAPON X until many years later...in between he basically fought humans and low to mid-level mutants,although nobody knew what mutants were back then.CAP came out fighting the very best t hat  this country could literally afford or arrange for him to fight virtually immediately. He also regularly engaged in live fire exercises with THE INVADERS.This is a decisive advantage because Wolverine basically spent the first century of his life fighting regular and trained humans,and wans't menaced by superhuman threats until much later.What helped you whoop the local ninja is not going to stand you in good stead when you face the likes of Sabertooth and Omega Red...you have to get in with people like that and develope your fighting method further.The same principals that allowed you to win in a point fighting tournament will help you win in a MMA match,but you have to develope the MMA training methods and be prepared to deal with that totlally different level of demands and performance and pressure...but a punch is stil la punch,a kick is still a ckikc,and a snikt is still a snikt.You just have to do it better,harder,faster...differently...than you did it previously.The difference between CAP and WOLVE is that CAP was born to a superior system and faced superior opoponents immediately...Wolverine was not.He was kidnapped,mindwiped,given an adamantium skeleton,reprogrammed,and released as an agent to do the bidding of WEAPON X.Captain America was developed around the whole concept of superior performance,and superior morality as the counter to the propaganda power of THE RED SKULL...he had superpowered villains squarely in his sighrts before he even became a REALITY.He would be afforder all the goodies that one of the most powerful countries of the world could afford him.he started out with an enormous advantage in that regard.Couple this with the incredible person t hat STEVE ROGERS always had the potential to be and became after he underwent the self-developement that is inevitable during his grueling training and subsequent superhero adventures,and you have a one of a kind man.

Now TCHALLA had all the advantages that CAP had,plus 2 more which I find to be decisive.Unlike SPIDEY and WOLVE,BP was trained and groomed since birth to be the incarnation of the ideal of a whole country comprised of holistic warriors...people whom prized the highest abilities of mind,body and spirit combined.People whom never knew loss or a tie,and people whom had at their command unsurpassed resources and econoic clout.This means that TCHALLA was born into a society that had proven itself to be the very best warrors that humantiy has ever had,and developed a method to pass down that level of unequaled scholarship,spirituality,technology,and warriorship that has accumulated for nearly 2000 years.Now reflect on that.Pause and consider the enormous,enormous gravity of that statement.Built into this warrior regime was the method to ensure that one produced warriors SUPERIOR TO THOSE WARRIORS WHO CAME BEFORE...because the very best warriors of the planet mentor you UNTIL YOU'RE ABLE TO BEAT THEM.This isn't a situation wherein we're taking a general group of people and saying okay we will train you and if you pass you can be BP.No.YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE BEST WARRIORS TO BECOME THE NEXT BP.So,perforce,the argument that my manz KIP made (which makes lotsa sense) about a guy not being half the fighter his brother or father or uncle is isn't valid here because this isn't a question of someone being allowed to become the BP but NOT being able to take the current BP in combat...ONE OF THE EXTREMELY DEMANDING REQUIREMENTS YOU HAVE TO MEET ON YOUR WAY TO BEING BP IS THAT YOU COULD ONLY BECOME THE BP IF YOU BEAT THE CURRENT BP IN COMBAT.Therefore,the reigning BP has already proven himself to be combatively without peer in all the land. He is,in fact,the baddest man in the country.Period point blank.This also means,perforce,that the reigning BP is superior to all previous incarnations,with the only possible question being raised about TSHAN and TCHALLA because they became BPs only after the murder of TCHAKA.The current BP,however,beyond dispute,is borne of the same system and defeated his uncle,whom,we must remind us all,was second only to his brother in combat.That means that TCHALLA is equal to,slightly superior to,or slightly inferior to his father in combat skill.My understanding of RH's interpretation of our boy TCHALLA is that he is NOT INFERIOR to his father.But that is only my totally subjective interpretation...

What does this have to do with real world combat? again...EVERYTHING.

This is a nation that has faced every possible threat,and even went beyond CAP's initial experiences because not only have they faced aliens and invaders (remember vibranium was supposed to have been found in a meteor that eventually became protected by the black panthers in the immediate vicinity,and that supposedly lead to the Black Panther religion.At some point a priori to this THE PANTHER GOD itself had to have been a part of the equation) each and every BP had to face THE PANTHER GOD himself,and receive his blessing.SO DID HIS WIFE.This is of inestimable value when it comes to evaluating combatants.Again,this means that the various BPs have become perforce familiar with mysticism and magic,and have developed the methods of dealing with these adversaries.Why do you think the local evil bad mojo man hasn't come over and taken over Wakanda? Because the BP will lay the ultimate smackdown on them, and they knew it.Furthermore,they risked the wrath of THE PANTHER GOD,and nobody wants any part of him.So...from birth...TCHALLA was raised by the greatest warriors in human history,whom developed a method that ensured that their successor would be greater than them in every way that could be Earthly measured,and then they sent the aspirant for the ultimate sanction...from the PANTHER GOD.If THE PANTEHR GOD was smoove--yes I said SMOOVE with a "V"--with it,then the aspirant became the OFFICIAL NEW BP,and had his soul linked to THE PANTHER GOD'S soul,and Lord knows what other mystic options were available at that point. But if you got enough magic mojo to back down MEPHISTO,you're a baaaad man,like ALI would say.

This is why he is better than CAP,WOLVE,and SPIDEY.The quality of Wolve's opposition was basically inferior until the upsurge of superhumans came along,and even then he didn't develope refined fighting methods until he went to Japan.In his latest incarnation,he seems to have an admixture of refined fighting ability and berserker rage,as he displayed against the SILVER SAMURAI (refined fighting ability) and THE WINTER SOLDIER (berserker rage).TCHALLA was born into a world wherein the greatest and most refined combat methods have always been--Wakanda--with the world's most storied and only undefeated warriors,and he came from a line that would only allow ascension if he proved himself superior to each and every one of the greatest of the greatest who came before him by defeating the "latest" greatest of the greatest...that would've been his father,but it turned out to be his uncle (anybody smell a plot device in here? I do...as TCHALLA could always consider himself to be lesser than hsi great father he came before him). Furthermore,TCHALLA had to prove himself to be the smartest of the smartest,the bravest of the bravest,etcetera,AND THEN he had to get the approbation of the MYSTERIOUS PANTHER GOD,which has its own methods of determining what it wishes.

TCHALLA is the baddest dude not named THOR or some such around.And that's how it should be...

Quote


Does quality of opposition come into the equasion? I ask because Captain America spent the 40's with the Invaders esentially fighting superhumans. He does this virtually non-stop until he gets thrown in suspended animation. Then the Avengers rescue him and the cycle of superhuman ultraviolence continues ;D .

 S.I is quite correct in noting that to be  Black Panther you must defeat the five toughest warriors of a nation of unbeaten asskickers and this regimen would produce in itself a superior fighter even when you that the heart shaped herb and the Panther God out of the equasion.

But nothing in the Wankandan's training regimen could equal the practical experience that years of fighting superhumans gives Captain America though.

But remember T'Challa's a genius. Knowing this, what does he do? His first appearance in Fantastic Four has him luring the FF to Wakanda to test his skills against them.  At the time they are the premere superteam on the planet so if he can take them, he figures to be in pretty good shape.  And he took them.

At worst, T'Challa's is Captain America's equal in combat.


Very very well put,Vic...and your question about quality of opposiiton I think I went into depth to try to answer in the post of mine that you quoted.Right behind natural ability and quality training comes quality of opposition.In fact,quality training is impacted by quality of opposition,and vice versa.These two are so closely related that in actuality they would be a TIE in importance,so the first would be natural ability and followi that by the two way tie of quality training/quality opposition.The awesome importance of this quality is why--IMHO--Cap is still the superior combatant to pretty much everybody not named TCHALLA or THOR or whatever other Class 100 strength being like The Hulk or whatever...and I might remind all of us that my manz really did well against The Hulk in their encounters,especially in THE ULTIMATE UNIVERSE.

And what separates TCHALLA from CAP isn't just the guantlet of 5 or 6 warriors,but the whole system he's been raised in,and most importantly the fact that in order to be the reigning BP you have to BEAT THE REIGNING BP...who has already proven himself to be the latest "greatest of the greatest" warrior on the planet.THAT'S what separates him and CAP...the TOTAL PACKAGE of who he is.Unequaled fighting prowess and unsurpassed intellect,merging with his physical prowess and supersenses,his technology,whatever mysterious magicks he learned in his apprenticeship to THE PANTHER GOD and in his post as essentially THE POPE of THE PANTHER GOD RELIGION, and his caginess.It's this holistic superior development of mind,body,and spirit--which is so thoroughly and originally African in origin and scope--that pretty much makes him virtually unbeatable.As PRIEST made so very clear about BP,this guy is an utter mystery,a master of misdirection.We really and truly DON'T KNOW WHAT HE CAN DO.Wakanda has sorcerors,mystics.BP is THE POPE--the spiritual leader--of THE PANTHER GOD RELIGION.Would it not follow that TChalla himself would be possessed of powerful magicks that he would only use in the most cagey way? I mean...the whole BP mythos is based upon the fact we don't know jack about him...and this again is a gargantuan departure from the other heroes we are seeking to compare him with.He's an A-lister with no gaudy superpowers.Only he and Captain America can make that claim...nobody else can
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 12:00:11 pm by supreme illuminati »
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