Author Topic: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"  (Read 20886 times)

Offline Jakuta

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Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« on: August 10, 2006, 07:27:45 pm »
After seeing the Ultimate Avengers 2, I like many of you was upset at how the Panther was played. Come on now Wakandans were chucking spears and shooting arrows and an Alien horde. They had computers and a munitions depot but, they couldn't have any technically advance weaponry? I guess they are not the most advanced Nation on the earth after all.
I think we need to voice our opinion. I went to the Ultimate Avenger website clicked on the Forum and there were no entries for the Panther.
We need to over load that forum with how we feel about the way the Panther was played.
The reason I shouted "Small World" is because I think we should rush that forum like Be-Be’s Kids.
Don’t get me wrong this is our Forum this is where we get our chat on but, I think we need to nipe this B.S. in the bud on the way the Panther is being played.
We need to let them know or this is what we can expect for the Panther Movie if there ever is one.

http://forums.lgf.com/forumdisplay.php?s=9b359bd4d6903ad977ea00ef9fed6346&f=140

This the Marvel Studios address:
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SMALL WORLD!!! >:(

Offline sinjection

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2006, 04:18:29 am »
Jakuta  :)

Don't stress yourself over this. I recognize that I could always be mistaken, but in the case of how Wakanda and her warriors were presented in Ultimate Avengers II, I don't believe there was any insult intended or unintentionally inflicted upon African-American viewers of the program. I humbly suggest that those of us who are African-American who might feel a measure of embarrassment or anger over the way the Wakandan warriors were portrayed in the movie may have internalized the hateful and dehumanizing attitudes of our ignorant white countrymen. Those European-Americans who got their guffaws on while watching the so-called "primitive",  spear-bearing Wakandan warriors being seemingly routed by the Wasp are probably among those of our ignorant countrymen who harbor and spew those hateful and dehumanizing attitudes at African-Americans.

Years ago, Marvel Comics produced and sold video cartoons based upon their comic books. The animation wasn't very good at all because the process used for creating these cartoons involved taking actual panels from pre-existing comic books and animating one or more portions of that individual's body to give the appearance of movement  :D  One of the videos produced was of Captain America. It featured the early stories of his and Bucky Barnes' fight against the Red Skull and the nazis during WWII. The lyrics to the theme song for those adventures are as follows:

"When Captain America throws his mighty shield,

All those who chose oppose his shield must yield.

If he's lead to a fight and a duel is due,

Then the red and white and the blue'll come through.

When Captain America throws his mighty shield."

So you see, it's all well and good when Captain America throws his mighty shield. But when Wakandan warriors throw their mighty spears, then we've got a problem with that  :)  We can believe Captain America's shield can penetrate metals and bisect humanoids - alien or otherwise - because we have been conditioned to believe that it's possible. When Hawkeye is able to take out all manner of super-powered miscreants with specially-designed arrows, we accept that he must be able to do that because he is Hawkeye. It doesn't matter that he isn't looking at the specific arrow he needs for any particular situation. When Hawkeye says, "I need a stun-arrow to deal with this bozo!", reaches into his quiver without looking, selects the very arrow he needs apparently by feel alone and after firing that arrow, achieves his desired objective, then we're fine with that. He's Hawkeye afterall, not some "spear-chucking" Wakandan warrior  ;)

Getting back to the world we live in Jakuta...presently, there is concern among this nation's leaders and thinkers that we could soon be overtaken by China as this world's superpower nation. The Chinese have recently enjoyed successes in their space program, their military dwarfs our own and is just as technologically advanced, if not more so, and their slave-labor economy is busting our chops. And in many of China's most "modern" hotels - at least the last time I'd heard or read anything about it - they are lacking modern plumbing and toilet facilities. Once, during a visit by President Bush to their country, they had to specially equip a bathroom complete with American-style toilet facilities, in his suite   :)

I don't want to ramble on and on Jakuta, but I hope you at least are beginning to see the point I have attempted to make here. 

Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

GrimSkill

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2006, 05:21:10 am »
Are you serious?


I see where you are trying to come from but come on,thats part of Cap's Myth or whatever. His shield is his main selling point.


But Wakanda's is their Advanced Technology.

Come on,don't you think it's a bit ridiculous for the most Advanced Nation in the world to be throwing SPEARS at ALIEN SPACE SHIPS???


They could have written in something better then that,and really showed off how Special Wakanda really is.   

Offline sinjection

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2006, 05:46:06 am »
Are you serious?


I see where you are trying to come from but come on,thats part of Cap's Myth or whatever. His shield is his main selling point.


But Wakanda's is their Advanced Technology.

Come on,don't you think it's a bit ridiculous for the most Advanced Nation in the world to be throwing SPEARS at ALIEN SPACE SHIPS???


They could have written in something better then that,and really showed off how Special Wakanda really is.   

 :D Friends!! Friends!!!!

What is it about the Wakandan warriors using spears - beside the fact that they are supposedly the most advanced nation in Marvel Comics continuity - that bothers us?

Captain America's shield is his primary weapon. Thor's hammer (battleaxe in the Ultimate Universe), is his primary weapon. Hawkeye utilizes a bow and arrow. The Swordsman used a specially-equipped sword. The Mockingbird used a quarterstaff. The Black Knight dressed up like one of King Arthur's knights of the round table and used the Ebony Blade as his primary weapon. We don't seem to have a problem with any of that  :D  Why?

Wakanda is special. Wakanda is advanced technologically. Remember though, before Mr. Hudlin's "re-boot" of the Panther story, how were those warriors who confronted Klaw's mercenaries depicted? There was even one scene that I remember that showed T'Chaka prepared to lead his warriors against Klaw armed with a shield and a spear.

I know many of you would have preferred to have seen Wakanda unleash the "flying wheel" warships and walking, laser-firing, Panther land-conveyances we saw in Christopher Priest's version of the Black Panther. In my view, that would have been predictable and kind of boring.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 05:51:11 am by sinjection »
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline blkyoda

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2006, 06:48:42 am »
Are you serious?


I see where you are trying to come from but come on,thats part of Cap's Myth or whatever. His shield is his main selling point.


But Wakanda's is their Advanced Technology.

Come on,don't you think it's a bit ridiculous for the most Advanced Nation in the world to be throwing SPEARS at ALIEN SPACE SHIPS???


They could have written in something better then that,and really showed off how Special Wakanda really is.   

 :D Friends!! Friends!!!!

What is it about the Wakandan warriors using spears - beside the fact that they are supposedly the most advanced nation in Marvel Comics continuity - that bothers us?

Captain America's shield is his primary weapon. Thor's hammer (battleaxe in the Ultimate Universe), is his primary weapon. Hawkeye utilizes a bow and arrow. The Swordsman used a specially-equipped sword. The Mockingbird used a quarterstaff. The Black Knight dressed up like one of King Arthur's knights of the round table and used the Ebony Blade as his primary weapon. We don't seem to have a problem with any of that  :D  Why?

Wakanda is special. Wakanda is advanced technologically. Remember though, before Mr. Hudlin's "re-boot" of the Panther story, how were those warriors who confronted Klaw's mercenaries depicted? There was even one scene that I remember that showed T'Chaka prepared to lead his warriors against Klaw armed with a shield and a spear.

I know many of you would have preferred to have seen Wakanda unleash the "flying wheel" warships and walking, laser-firing, Panther land-conveyances we saw in Christopher Priest's version of the Black Panther. In my view, that would have been predictable and kind of boring.


I can't speak for anyone else. I have no particular shame with 'spears' as opposed to other weapons. But each of the examples that you use (Thor, Cap etc.) are examples of ancient anachronistic weapons that have magical or extra-special abilities. From what I and many other people who are reading this have heard, they weren't throwing 'magical' or 'grenade tipped' spears they were throwing regular spears. Which is exactly the kind of primative, non-advanced image of Africa that Whites have perpetuated for years. What makes it even more degrading and annoying is that Black Panther is ruler of a very advanced nation and such a very advanced nation would USE advanced weapons. That's not using the 'white man' as a standard that's just advances in military technology. Shaka Zulu was famous for NOT using long spears in his arsenal. He broke his spear off - so that was only about a quarter of the length of the average long spear and changed military tactics in the southern part of Africa forever. (He named his particular weapon 'Assagai' - for those who have never heard of this he claimed his short spear was enchanted and it was revered by friends and enemies alike as a kind of 'Excalibur' for it's power on the battlefield.) The point is military advances are military advances and the failure of this movie to demonstrate that this 'African' nation did not advance militarily like the rest of the planet is insulting at the bare miminum and a perpetuation of a long standing racist stereotype at the maximum. The French were famous for using foils and fencing, does the modern day french army use 'rocket propelled' foils to battle their enemies? North African Nations all the way down to the Sudan often armed their warriors with Cymitars (sp?) in ancient times when they battled. Do you see modern armies in the Sudan, Mali or Egypt running around with 'modern day' Cymitars? No, I know what you're getting at Sin, that this is all about black folks being afraid or ashamed of our culture or past cuz of the white man etc. etc. but I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. 'Spear chuckin' is just wack and racist no matter how you spin it.
Lastly, and I don't wanna get into a 'priest' debate, but he made a point on his website once about technology and BP. That it made NO sense that this guy, who supposedly designed the Quinjet and outsmarted REED RICHARDS and the Fantastic Four would live in a country of people who still hung out in straw huts. They would advance just like everyone else. That's not a white/black or European issue. Hell, a black American Man invented mobile refrigeration, you don't think the brothers in Wakanda would bust out with some air-conditioning as soon as possible? That was always one of the lame contradictions about panther that this guy with all of this power and tech at his disposal still ran around in a black jumpsuit instead of using all of the resources at his disposal. Plus as far as 'Priest's' reboot - this is how his version of events differed from that of the current writer. In the priest run, Wakanda was a hidden African Nation that nobody had ever heard of, except Cap whom they took out. When Klaw attacked they had been so isolated that their spears and skin shields were no match for the military tech that most of the world was using. Then again, since nobody had really bothered them at all they hadn't seen any need to get much more advanced. It was KLAW'S invasion, and the shock of seeing T'Chaka killed that led to Wakanda going crazy on the technology tip. In a span of 20 or so years they went from an anachronistic society to being the most advanced on the planet. The current writers version is that Wakanda was ALWAYS more advanced than anyone else (even though the coolest thing they could come up with to defeat five mercenaries was a skycycle :D

I don't one version is any better than the other but I think you mischaracterized priest's run.

Offline sinjection

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2006, 07:33:22 am »
Well yoda, I'm not certain of this, but I believe the spears used by the Wakandan warriors were tipped with Vibranium.

As you've said my friend, I suppose this is just another one of those times we will have to agree to respectfully disagree. You say that 'spear chuckin' (you've really got to lose that bit of terminology yodicus  :), is "wack" and "racist". Until I am able to discern something in the movie that I haven't seen as of yet, I'm not convinced that there was racist or intended insult or even ignorance - benign or otherwise - present.


As always, the rest of your post had within it information that was enlightening and things that just made me shake my head and chuckle. I don't fully understand nor can I agree with the negativity and upset attached to the Wakandan warriors using spears in battle, but I can appreciate that it apparently, most of you are of a different opinion.
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline voodoochild

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2006, 07:56:38 am »
Haven't picked up the movie yet(today, hopefully), but I read on another board that the spears were supposed to be vibranium tipped.  Also, this is the Ultimate Universe's Wakanda, not 616, so I don't think we should judge it using Mcgregor/Priest/Hudlin standards.

Offline bluezulu

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2006, 08:11:31 am »
i am one ususally ready for an e protest or uprising but on this issue you are contextually wrong if not artisticly correct. if you watch the dvd extras as well as read the write up of the dvd movie premise you will see that the use of spears and dress are of a symbolic nature. the wakandans embrace their past and utilize the future technology to enhance their knowledge. one of the reasons the white man has been able to be so dominant in "conquring" other nations of the world. militiristicly (sp) the rifle and later the pistol is a superior weapn to any other hand held weapon. the chinese invented and sucussfuly used "gun powder" for years but because of their culture stuck with their traditional weapons untill with constant trade with other contries started to use the rifle more and more.

the wakandans have been isolated. so much so that with their brilliance they used the crashed hull of the ship to enhance the weapons they already had. the movie had tchalla sending his son off to school and this was supposed to be the first time something like this happend. they would not know what a plasma cannon or a traditional rifle would be.

i for one loved the indestructable tribal shileds. they were deflecting the munitions of the alieans as well as iron mans fire power. the spears penetrated iron man's armor and force filed. iron man armor is supposedly the most advance tech in the world and he could not stand up to the wakandas.

the zulu spear and shiled are known throughout the world to be magnificing in design and use. those weapons and shaka zulu's superior tactics is what had him almost conqure all of africa and held his own against invading forces using their cannons and rifles and muskets. so yes the most intelligent and sophisticated country in the world was using spears. how i see it they would deflect the hollow points from my glock using their shield and then impale me with their vibranium spears. west is not always the best. just my two cents. :'(

Offline Gooch

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2006, 12:29:52 pm »
I am guilty for stating this , spear chucking thing,   but one thing i must point out,  this is how a white man thinks an afircan nation would be.   Hence the fact he said hew anted to go with traditionl gar, and traditional weapons.   

I can see where you cats ase coming from when it comes with how great the spear is in our culture.  Lord knows i have trained with both boe sitcks, short spear, long spears, swords and sheilds.   

I did say the spears were vibranium tipped and what not.   
   

But the explanation and the writing was kind of poor.

  they said the Wakandns shot down the sh*tari ship, but you cannot tell me that they used a spear or catapult to knock it out the air from 10,000 feet away.


What the sh*t reminded me of was, and probaly inspired by the ewoks destroying the empire in return of the jedi 

It would have been more believable for everybody to have panter tipped darts firing out of thier hands like the panther.   Maybe them deploying advanced automotons that just disables
 thier oppenents
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Offline bluezulu

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2006, 02:04:52 pm »
bro  i understand where you are coming from and in a scenario that you describe i could hear the critics call it unrealistic. i remember when the movie boomerang first came out white critics called it a black fantasy world and how unrealistic it was imagine successful black people. i think the answer is somewhere in the middle because you have to remember we have been programed to feel that african culture is somehow beneath european and even eastern culture. i find it kind of god like the image of the nubian warrior standing among the african plains with zulu spear and shield in hand. 8)

Offline zeraze

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2006, 07:16:23 pm »
  they said the Wakandns shot down the sh*tari ship, but you cannot tell me that they used a spear or catapult to knock it out the air from 10,000 feet away.

The Wakandans likely used cannons loaded with vibranium shells just as they did to repel the latest Chitauri invasion.

Quote
What the sh*t reminded me of was, and probaly inspired by the ewoks destroying the empire in return of the jedi 

That's a fair comparison.

Quote
It would have been more believable for everybody to have panter tipped darts firing out of thier hands like the panther.   Maybe them deploying advanced automotons that just disables
 thier oppenents

That would have better underscored why the Wakandans did not believe they needed outside aid.  Sure, the Chitauri's sheer numbers would have forced even Wakanda to ally with the Avengers, but I think Black Panther's country would have still come out looking better.

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Offline True Father 7

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2006, 09:17:52 pm »
After seeing the Ultimate Avengers 2, I like many of you was upset at how the Panther was played. Come on now Wakandans were chucking spears and shooting arrows and an Alien horde. They had computers and a munitions depot but, they couldn't have any technically advance weaponry? I guess they are not the most advanced Nation on the earth after all.
I think we need to voice our opinion. I went to the Ultimate Avenger website clicked on the Forum and there were no entries for the Panther.
We need to over load that forum with how we feel about the way the Panther was played.
The reason I shouted "Small World" is because I think we should rush that forum like Be-Be’s Kids.
Don’t get me wrong this is our Forum this is where we get our chat on but, I think we need to nipe this B.S. in the bud on the way the Panther is being played.
We need to let them know or this is what we can expect for the Panther Movie if there ever is one.

http://forums.lgf.com/forumdisplay.php?s=9b359bd4d6903ad977ea00ef9fed6346&f=140

This the Marvel Studios address:
The Executive Producers are Avi Arad, Craig Kyle, and Eric S.Rollman
Marvel Studios
9242 Beverly Boulevard
Suite 350
Beverly Hills, CA 90210

Let's show we care.
SMALL WORLD!!! >:(


it's not that serious.  I loved seeing my favorite character in a movie.  The fact that he makes an appearance in the Ultimate Universe in a movie before the comics says something already.  Maybe in an animated feature film called Black Panther you'll get more of what you want, but this was an Avengers movie.  Other then that, if it's that serious, write ya own story to submit to Marvel instead of expecting white cats to do Panther the way you want, PEACE
"Don't count the days, make the days count"-Muhammad Ali

Offline True Father 7

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2006, 09:21:41 pm »
Are you serious?


I see where you are trying to come from but come on,thats part of Cap's Myth or whatever. His shield is his main selling point.


But Wakanda's is their Advanced Technology.

Come on,don't you think it's a bit ridiculous for the most Advanced Nation in the world to be throwing SPEARS at ALIEN SPACE SHIPS???


They could have written in something better then that,and really showed off how Special Wakanda really is.   

like what?  What should they have been using?  Give some ideas
"Don't count the days, make the days count"-Muhammad Ali

Offline True Father 7

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2006, 09:27:50 pm »
Well yoda, I'm not certain of this, but I believe the spears used by the Wakandan warriors were tipped with Vibranium.

As you've said my friend, I suppose this is just another one of those times we will have to agree to respectfully disagree. You say that 'spear chuckin' (you've really got to lose that bit of terminology yodicus  :), is "wack" and "racist". Until I am able to discern something in the movie that I haven't seen as of yet, I'm not convinced that there was racist or intended insult or even ignorance - benign or otherwise - present.


As always, the rest of your post had within it information that was enlightening and things that just made me shake my head and chuckle. I don't fully understand nor can I agree with the negativity and upset attached to the Wakandan warriors using spears in battle, but I can appreciate that it apparently, most of you are of a different opinion.

I want to get me an african spear and put on display in my house.  Take one of those over them clumsy guns kids accidentally kill themselves with every day
"Don't count the days, make the days count"-Muhammad Ali

Offline sinjection

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Re: Voice your Opinion "SMALL WORLD!!!"
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2006, 10:27:12 pm »


I want to get me an african spear and put on display in my house.  Take one of those over them clumsy guns kids accidentally kill themselves with every day

 :D  True. The average American child would be most likely to kill themselves with a gun than with a spear.

In an earlier post, I included a link attached to an image of Kenya's national flag to demonstrate to our friends posting to this topic, that Africans have a sense of pride in those traditional weapons with which they fought for their freedom and their lives. I'm not sure that relating the following tidbit of information will help or hinder matters, but there is a famous picture of the founder of the Black Panther Party, Huey Newton, wearing the signature Panther black beret, seated in a large chai, holding a rifle in one hand and a spear in the other.

A black warrior - no matter his national origin - recognizes the noble significance of the spear.
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther