Author Topic: Black Panther 18 The Wedding  (Read 127107 times)

Offline Jonathanos

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #120 on: July 30, 2006, 12:30:56 am »
I don't have a problem with the dissenters. I'm not trying to speak for the brothers and sisters participating in this forum, but I don't believe they have a problem with any dissenter who is respectful, intelligent and puts forth opinions that are valid in their criticism.

You may not have a problem with people voicing a dissenting opinion on Hudlin's PANTHER...

D-Ruck doesn't share in your belief, apparently.  He said that he believes longtime readers voicing disapproval of a title's current direction are arrogant and shouldn't be bothering people who do enjoy it.

Offline Jonathanos

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2006, 12:47:37 am »
I'm not saying sit down and be quiet, I'm saying find something better to do.  It only makes sense

 ??? There's a difference?  They both come out to "Don't voice your opinion unless it agrees with the current direction (which I happen to like)."

Quote
I don't concern myself deeply with the inner workings of a comic company, only the content they put out for my entertainment.  I provide my support by giving them my dollar, I don't know if I'd go as far as a petition, possibly if placed in front of me.  But I wouldn't go whining to Marvel about how they should conduct business, if they cancel Panther, which I hope they won't since I dig it, life most certainly goes on.

But that's a whole different game from whining about the comic going in a different direction.

You provide your support by giving them your dollar... and making your opinion known.

Those who disapprove make their disapproval known by not giving them their dollar... and making their opinion known.

Offline sinjection

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #122 on: July 30, 2006, 03:43:12 am »

It's internally inconsistent because it presents events and claims that contradict each other within the context of Hudlin's stories alone.  For example, the stories themselves suggest that Hudlin's entire run has happened in the span of just a few months story time.  T'Challa was shown as being crowned very recently, and issue #10 makes it clear that the wedding arc takes place soon after the first arc ("Apparently, after taking the throne and murdering the man who killed his father, his next job was to find a wife and produce an heir or two.").  But Hudlin also has T'Challa refer to himself as a former Avenger, and makes reference to some kind of long history between Panther, Cap, and Iron Man.  When would there have ever been time for that to happen within the context of Hudlin's own stories?  There wouldn't.  And that's just one example of this.

- Jer

Well, let's look at this and see if Hudlin's so-called "inconsistencies" are as blatant as Priest's "inaccuracy" - attempting to appease the "fanbratti" by trying to shoe-horn the tiger (an animal that is indigenous to Asia but is only seen in zoos on the continent of Africa), into the religious heirarchy of the Panther Cult.

ISH #1: "Who Is The Black Panther? Part 1" deals primarily with the illustrious origin of Wakanda, its enigmatic leader known as the Black Panther and its history of having never been conquered by foreign invasion. Also in this issue, we are introduced to a meeting of U.S. government cabinet types - up to no good where Wakanda is concerned of course - being briefed by an ugly, bespectacled fellow who answers to the name of "Everett".

Everett is telling those gathered how in 1944 during WWII, a certain legendary "super soldier" traveled to Wakanda intending to seek out and destroy nazis but who found instead, T'Chaka, the Black Panther. King of the Wakandas. Everett expounds upon this meeting in great detail, revealing - much to the chagrin of one possibly racist general in their company - that after engaging T'Chaka in extended hand-to-hand combat, America's "super-soldier" lost to the enigmatic African king. Enraged, the possibly racist general attempts to throttle the life out of Everett who at that time remarks to the general; "If it makes you feel better, the Panther also beat the Fantastic Four in--" The issue concludes with those in the meeting of U.S. cabinet types and other miscreants meeting elsewhere, plotting their best course of how to invade Wakanda.

Highlights of Issue #1: Nothing has been done to detract from or besmirch the history of Wakanda. If anything, the origin story of Wakanda has been improved. At this time, you will note that the identity of the Black Panther and current king of Wakanda has not yet been revealed by the speaker who bears a nauseating resemblance to Everett K. Ross and who in fact, is identified as "Everett" by "Dondi". Dondi is rather attractive for a comic book character I might add. Dondi is almost as comely as Condi. Everett reveals that the "Black Panther" defeated Captain America and the Fantastic Four. The defeat of Captain America is something new, but works very well for me and the Panther's defeat of the Fantastic Four is true to continuity. You will note that Everett was interrupted before he could specify when the Black Panther defeated the F4. Unless the U.S. cabinet types had by then, begun to believe that the Black Panther of Wakanda was immortal, had Everett been allowed to finish and say when the Black Panther defeated the Fantastic Four, the wise among those at the meeting would have deduced that Everett would have had to have been speaking about two different men, two different Wakandan kings, two different Black Panthers.

ISH#2: "Who Is The Black Panther, Part II"  Everett continues to brief this meeting of U.S. cabinet types on Wakanda. Dondi asks; "Who is the Black Panther?" Everett replies; "His name is T'Challa. Son of T'Chaka." As Everett continues his briefing, the actual story of how T'Challa becomes the Black Panther through ritual combat is illustrated throughout the book. The reader knows that this is something that is not happening concurrent with Everett's briefing but has happened some time before. Upon learning of her son's victory over his uncle in the ascension battle, Ramonda - still devastatingly beautiful though obviously aged - is clearly melancholy and concerned. Although Ramonda knew that it was "inevitable" that her son T'Challa would ascend to the throne once occupied by her powerful husband and T'Challa's father, T'Chaka, she also had to accept the reality that T'Challa's becoming the Black Panther would make him a more visible target for his enemies.

Highlights of Issue #2: If the man called "Everett" who is the seeming expert on Wakanda isn't Everett K. Ross, he's a pretty good imitation. Of course by now, I'm sure most of know that the man is indeed Everett K. Ross and I'm still happy that he wasn't invited to the wedding. I'm not clear if this Everett K. Ross has had the same experiences as did Priest's Everett K. Ross. Only time and Reginald Hudlin can tell. If in fact, this Everett K. Ross isn't the exact individual created by Priest, but instead is a Hudlin-rebooted Ross, I'm sure the character will be the better for it. Priest's Everett K. Ross was a stupid pimple of a man.

And so you see Jer, T'Challa has every right to refer to himself as an Avenger since at the time of Everett's briefing to the U.S. cabinet types, it was clear that T'Challa had been king of Wakanda long enough to have lured the Fantastic Four into battle and become a member of the Avengers. Remember, when did T'Challa first meet Monica Lynne? It was when he was an active member of the Avengers was it not? Why sure it was.

Internal continuity checks out as consistent here.

Egad. I nearly forgot.

You said, "Apparently, after taking the throne and murdering the man who killed his father..."

In your eyes, what T'Challa did to Klaw constitutes murder. I see it quite differently.

T'Challa is a warrior. He was a warrior when he seriously wounded the scum who had just assassinated his father and was about to murder his mother and her unborn child. As the Black Panther, T'Challa was and is the Warrior King of a powerful Warrior Nation. What T'Challa did to Klaw wasn't murder. It was righteous retribution. It was justice.

*******

Oh, and by the way, having completed a visual re-check of Issue #1, the speaker's identity was established very early on as Everett K. Ross.

Sorry for the runaround  :'(
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 03:54:50 am by sinjection »
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline sinjection

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #123 on: July 30, 2006, 04:53:10 am »

It's externally inconsistent because Hudlin generally writes T'Challa and his supporting cast in their own rebooted context (T'Challa only became king recently, people around the world know of him but don't know him, etc.), but you still see pre-Hudlin T'Challa showing up in other books (Avengers: Illuminati is the most recent example).  You also have Ororo in the book now, which is bizarre because she hasn't been rebooted, but T'Challa has, so she must still have memories of her dealings with pre-Hudlin T'Challa, which makes absolutely no sense at all.

- Jer


As I explained in my previous post, T'Challa's reign of Wakanda begins much earlier than you seem to believe it did. People around the world know of T'Challa because as early as Issues #1 and #2, it was established that T'Chaka, the Black Panther had prior contact with Captain America and that T'Challa, the Black Panther had already encountered and had defeated the Fantastic Four. Everett K. Ross was about to talk about that incident as if it were ancient history.

Why wasn't Killmonger installed as the Black Panther after his defeat of T'Challa in the ritual ascension battle? He earned it didn't he? How did Priest get around having to give the mantle of the Black Panther to Killmonger and also make it possible for a bi-racial U.S. citizen to challenge for rulership of the nation of Wakanda?  He was nicknamed Kasper for pete's sake. And why was he called Kasper? Why, it was because of his "light skin tone. If Priest couldn't appease the "fanbratti" by making the Black Panther white, he would try to do so by making him "damn near white". "White Wolf". "White Tiger". A bi-racial U.S. citizen called "Kasper" because he happened to be lighter than the average Wakandan....man, that Christopher Priest and his "just making it white will make it alright" fixation.....but I digress.

Where was I  ???  Ohhh yes!

How did Priest get around having to allow Eric Killmonger to ascend to the Wakandan throne and assume the mantle of the Black Panther after he had clearly defeated T'Challa and met the qualifications for rulership? Didn't he become comatose after ingesting the sacred heart-shaped herb that the Black Panther has the right to eat? I believe that's what happened.

Now if anyone in Wakanda - and according to Priest, some U.S. inner city - can challenge the reigning Black Panther to battle and if he or she is victorious, then that person is eligible to complete the necessary rituals and become the Black Panther, why is it that only the descendants of the T'Challa and apparently only those who preceeded him can safely ingest the heart-shaped herb? Unless I've read the information incorrectly, the reason given as to why Killmonger lapsed into the coma was that the herb is toxic to anyone outside of the royal lineage to which T'Chaka and T'Challa belong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_(comics) - stupid link won't work, but just type Black Panther Wikipedia, or something like that, into your search field to aquire the site.

This would in effect disqualify anyone outside of the T'Chaka, T'Challa and soon to be T'Charming bouncing baby of T'Challa and Ororo lineage from partaking of the herb, completing the ascension ritual and becoming the Black Panther of Wakanda.

Now was this coma just a "Killmonger thing" or does ingesting the heart-shaped herb pose the same danger to any would-be Black Panther - including "Kasper the fan-friendly Panther" - not born into the lineage of the current ruler of Wakanda? If so, this would definitely qualify as an inconsistency wouldn't you think?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 05:30:33 am by sinjection »
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline D- Ruck

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #124 on: July 30, 2006, 05:16:09 am »
I'm not saying sit down and be quiet, I'm saying find something better to do.  It only makes sense

 ??? There's a difference?  They both come out to "Don't voice your opinion unless it agrees with the current direction (which I happen to like)."

Quote
I don't concern myself deeply with the inner workings of a comic company, only the content they put out for my entertainment.  I provide my support by giving them my dollar, I don't know if I'd go as far as a petition, possibly if placed in front of me.  But I wouldn't go whining to Marvel about how they should conduct business, if they cancel Panther, which I hope they won't since I dig it, life most certainly goes on.

But that's a whole different game from whining about the comic going in a different direction.

You provide your support by giving them your dollar... and making your opinion known.

Those who disapprove make their disapproval known by not giving them their dollar... and making their opinion known.

The thing is you're obviously free to say what you want, but I just don't see the point in hanging around if you don't like the comic.
"Playa Hatas

Elevate us

If you Cross Me

You'll Die"

Wise Lebron

Offline kitamu Re

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #125 on: July 30, 2006, 07:27:33 am »
It's called being a fan.  People care about the characters and want their opinions, whether for or against the current product, heard.

That's the point.  They care.

If you don't buy the books HOW CAN YOU CARE

Offline bluezulu

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #126 on: July 30, 2006, 07:41:42 am »

Most dissenters of Hudlin's Panther do not like his portrayal of the character. They don't like the direction the character and Wakanda is headed in. They absolutely loathe the fact that it is T'Challa and not Wolverine who has marched Ororo Munroe down the aisle and who will father her child. Those dissenters believe that Hudlin's Black Panther is a forum for him to express his hubris and racism. Those dissenters are living for the day when Hudlin's Black Panther is cancelled, T'Challa becomes the "invisible man" once again and Storm is returned to being the sexual plaything of every male and female mutant - unless the mutant's name is Bishop - in the Marvel Universe
-------------------------------

quoted for truthfulness

my question is why some comic fans won't support a book with a black lead? when im talking about support im not talking about what they choose to buy. hell it's your money. what i don't understand is if your not a fan of the character or the writer of the book what you care? to me looking at the forum posters on line their comments about this book appear to be thinly veiled statements about their personal political and social views. these guys tell you that they don't read the book, don't like the character and hate the writer, based off of what they read another poster said on some web site.

Offline HappyPants Panther

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #127 on: July 30, 2006, 07:46:56 am »
Well, let's see now....  :)

Priest's Black Panther allowed the foolish functionary of a foreign government to have the run of his offices. As a result, Ross had access to certain sensitive documents. During his more nosy moments, this foolish functionary of a foreign government happened to stumble onto Wakanda's plans for dealing with an attack on Earth by Galactus. So what? The point I'm making is this. George Bush - as foolish as he can be at times - wouldn't ever allow an under-secretary of the government of Russia to serve as Vice President, Secretary of State, Chief of Staff....he wouldn't even let that under-secretary serve as mayor of Washington D.C. And Priest's Panther allows Ross to serve as regent of Wakanda?

Ross "did no harm"?

Well, if you don't have a problem with his being a distraction to T'Challa during an ascension battle and nearly getting him killed. I suppose Ross "did no harm".

If you don't have a problem with his surrendering the throne of Wakanda to an unstable, villianous Eric Killmonger and possibly subjecting the nation of Wakanda to the rule of a despot as a result, then I suppose Ross "did no harm".

If Ross was intended to be comic relief it was lost on me. Ross was a nuisance. Priest allowed Ross to be the conduit if you will, to the fanboy out there who might have felt that because the Panther was black and the story was primarily about the happenings of an African nation, he was somehow dispossessed and couldn't relate to the characters. Ross told the story of the Panther. Hudlin's Panther needs no Ross to tell his story. Hudlin's Panther commands his nation and his own destiny.

Again, Ross did no harm as T'Challas' regent. I'm not even sure how sensitive the information on Galactus was. It was easily accessible to anyone who could get into that room and open a desk drawer, and it was in english-a foriegn language. Doesn't seem highly classified to me. Notice Wakabi's reaction when Ross asks "You have contengencies in case Galactus shows up?!". Wakabie calmly replies "Doesn't everyone, my lord?" Not "What are you doing with that!?" Not "You weren't supposed to see that!" Its not a big deal apparently. Makes me wonder how powerful Priests Wakanda is...I mean if thats not your nations biggest secret, if thats not even close to the best demonstrastion of your nations strength, what is? And finally, Ross did not report the details of the plan (assuming he knew enough of what the plan was- as he never indicates he knows the details, instead he indicates that a plan exists).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 08:20:30 am by HappyPants Panther »
Marvel has yet to change their Black Panther Bio page to reflect Hudlin's history. Yes! There's still hope.

Offline colin solan

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #128 on: July 30, 2006, 07:51:15 am »
Also in this issue, we are introduced to a meeting of U.S. government cabinet types - up to no good where Wakanda is concerned of course - being briefed by an ugly, bespectacled fellow who answers to the name of "Everett".

What, you got something against people with astigmastism?? That's cold, dude.

Offline Jonathanos

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #129 on: July 30, 2006, 08:59:34 am »
It's called being a fan.  People care about the characters and want their opinions, whether for or against the current product, heard.

That's the point.  They care.

If you don't buy the books HOW CAN YOU CARE

Just because someone doesn't buy the book doesn't mean they don't care.  A fan can show how much he/she cares by not supporting a direction they disapprove of and making their opinion known. 

It is foolishness for a fan to continue buying a series when they are no longer enjoying it, IMO.

Offline JRCarter

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #130 on: July 30, 2006, 09:17:05 am »

Most dissenters of Hudlin's Panther do not like his portrayal of the character. They don't like the direction the character and Wakanda is headed in. They absolutely loathe the fact that it is T'Challa and not Wolverine who has marched Ororo Munroe down the aisle and who will father her child. Those dissenters believe that Hudlin's Black Panther is a forum for him to express his hubris and racism. Those dissenters are living for the day when Hudlin's Black Panther is cancelled, T'Challa becomes the "invisible man" once again and Storm is returned to being the sexual plaything of every male and female mutant - unless the mutant's name is Bishop - in the Marvel Universe
-------------------------------

quoted for truthfulness

my question is why some comic fans won't support a book with a black lead? when im talking about support im not talking about what they choose to buy. hell it's your money. what i don't understand is if your not a fan of the character or the writer of the book what you care? to me looking at the forum posters on line their comments about this book appear to be thinly veiled statements about their personal political and social views. these guys tell you that they don't read the book, don't like the character and hate the writer, based off of what they read another poster said on some web site.

Too true, too true.

Offline HappyPants Panther

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #131 on: July 30, 2006, 09:54:05 am »
Most dissenters of Hudlin's Panther do not like his portrayal of the character. They don't like the direction the character and Wakanda is headed in. They absolutely loathe the fact that it is T'Challa and not Wolverine who has marched Ororo Munroe down the aisle and who will father her child. Those dissenters believe that Hudlin's Black Panther is a forum for him to express his hubris and racism. Those dissenters are living for the day when Hudlin's Black Panther is cancelled, T'Challa becomes the "invisible man" once again and Storm is returned to being the sexual plaything of every male and female mutant - unless the mutant's name is Bishop - in the Marvel Universe.

The closest thing to racism I've seen on this site has come from Hudlin and his supporters. I've seen implications that those who dislike Hudlin's run are white and dislike his run because their white. I've seen black people who dislike the book described as what amounts to an uncle tom. I've seen those who don't like Storm and Panther's union for whatever reason described pretty much white supremicists. I've never seen a more racially charged comic board.
Marvel has yet to change their Black Panther Bio page to reflect Hudlin's history. Yes! There's still hope.

Offline kitamu Re

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #132 on: July 30, 2006, 11:19:32 am »
shut up and go buy the books then you have a right to vent. you can't talk about something you haven't read that is common sense ???

Offline stanleyballard

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #133 on: July 30, 2006, 11:20:48 am »
HappyPantsPanther.....disagree that this board is anymore racist than any other one....the bigger question is why are there so few Black heroes that we see represented in science fiction and Black owned companies that produce books, literature, etc.  The numbers are not high and there is a serious problem due to historic wrongs.

BlueZulu....agree that many people listen to someone else and never read to come up with their own opinion and that is a lazy aspect of human existence.  If one doesn't like a book one will discontinue reading it and move on and not comment further.  The bigger statement is with the pocketbook.

Offline HappyPants Panther

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Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #134 on: July 30, 2006, 11:33:00 am »
HappyPantsPanther.....disagree that this board is anymore racist than any other one....the bigger question is why are there so few Black heroes that we see represented in science fiction and Black owned companies that produce books, literature, etc.  The numbers are not high and there is a serious problem due to historic wrongs.

If there is a more racially charged comic board out there, please give me a link.

But you are correct about there being a lack of Black heroes in comics. I don't know why, but I'll bounce some ideas your way:

Maybe the white comic reading majority finds black heroes unrelatable. And without mass support, a black hero  is economically unviable.
Maybe there is a lack of good writing when it comes to black heroes.
Maybe theres been a lack of black owned publishing companies.

Please, add on.
Marvel has yet to change their Black Panther Bio page to reflect Hudlin's history. Yes! There's still hope.