Author Topic: Black Panther 18 The Wedding  (Read 107030 times)

Offline Jer

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #135 on: July 30, 2006, 12:56:42 pm »
OK, this has spiraled completely out of control.  There are too many comments demanding a response here, and I don't want to spend all afternoon trying to hit every point, especially when most of the people here don't seem interested in a legitimate discussion.  I'll give it a shot, though.

jonathanos, jer, and happypants are all the same person. I suggest we boycott  them until HE BUYS THE BOOKS. How can you have an intelligent conversation with someone who hasn't read the books. This TROLL has said the samething in everypost.The same lame argument about the same stupid irrelevant thing.


You complain about lameness, stupidity, and irrelevance, and yet you've exemplified all of those things in every one of your posts in this thread.  I have bought a number of the books.  I have read most of the books.  I've told you this repeatedly, but you've ignored it every time.  If you enjoy looking like a fool, congratulations.

As for the claim that we're all the same person, that's a load of crap.  All our IPs are logged -- ask the moderator to check them if you want.  And your own Bluezulu can attest that I'm both my own man and a dyed-in-the-wool Panther fan, so you're fresh out of legs to stand on.  Probably not a new situation for you.

Many critics of Hudlin will "nitpick this and nitpick that" when it is often apparent that what truly galls them is the fact that Hudlin is writing a Black Panther who bows to no man, no woman, no organization, no nation.


Actually, one of my complaints is that Hudlin's Panther isn't dangerous enough.  In the Stan & Jack origin issues and especially in the Priest run, T'Challa was so formidable it was scary.  You were in awe of the man.  The guy could crush you physically, but he usually didn't have to because he'd outmaneuvered you before you ever showed up.  Hudlin's shown some of this with T'Chaka, but his T'Challa hasn't come remotely close to that level, IMO.

Quote
In Priest's "First Contact", T'Chaka and Captain America's brief struggle ended in a draw and the fanboys seemed able to live with that.


Actually, Cap admitted that T'Chaka could have killed him and all of his men at any time -- T'Chaka was just testing this so-called American "super soldier" to get the measure of the man.  T'Chaka also broke Cap's preconceptions by displaying his intelligence and awareness of world affairs.  Honestly, I think T'Chaka looked a lot more impressive in that original version than in Hudlin's quickie flashback where he just beat up Cap and carried him off.  Priest's version got the year right, too (Cap had long abandoned his triangular shield by 1944), plus it explained how the U.S. got its hands on the vibranium that went into Cap's round shield, and it explained why Cap was so quick to trust T'Challa later on.  Hudlin's version wiped all of that away in exchange for "ooh, ooh, T'Chaka punked Captain America!"  Whoopdie doo.

Quote
Priest's Panther defeats Mephisto and at least one critic of Hudlin thinks that is a great thing.

Hudlin's Panther defeats Sabretooth and the fanboys are ready to riot and burn Marvel Comics to the ground.

Double standard anyone?


How can that be a double standard when I think it's perfectly reasonable that T'Challa could defeat Sabretooth?  I also think T'Challa should be able to take Captain America at least half the time.  So what's the problem...?

Quote
because Priest's T'Challa was incapable of standing on his own two feet without Ross there to lean on


This is nonsense.  Priest's T'Challa tolerated Ross because he'd smelled Nikki's scent on him when he first met him and he trusted Nikki's judgment, and because Ross served a useful purpose as a U.S. government liaison.  Over time T'Challa became fond of Ross's quirks, and he also felt he owed the guy because T'Challa's actions had gotten Ross sent to an arctic listening post as punishment.  T'Challa wasn't dependent upon him in the slightest.

Quote
In my always humble opinion, Priest didn't have the courage to write his own story and allowed the whims of fanboy fanaticism to dictate his course. The fanboys couldn't relate to a Black Panther that was a black man from the continent of Africa? Fine. Priest new how to fix that problem. Have T'Challa lose his marbles and make the new Black Panther a bi-racial U.S. citizen.


Priest originally told Marvel to get someone else to take over the book with #50 and try a different take, but they wanted to keep him on -- and since the entire purpose of changing the direction of the book was to boost sales, and the current approach wasn't working in that regard, Priest went in a radically different direction.

Was I a fan of shoving T'Challa aside and having some broke-ass American cop running around in the Panther outfit instead?  No.  I would've much rather seen the series continue the way it had been.  But despite my distaste for the change of direction, I still enjoyed Priest's writing, and there were enough elements of the original series still present in some form to keep me interested.  I can understand why some people would've been completely put off by the change, though.

Quote
Upon learning of her son's victory over his uncle in the ascension battle, Ramonda - still devastatingly beautiful though obviously aged - is clearly melancholy and concerned. Although Ramonda knew that it was "inevitable" that her son T'Challa would ascend to the throne once occupied by her powerful husband and T'Challa's father, T'Chaka, she also had to accept the reality that T'Challa's becoming the Black Panther would make him a more visible target for his enemies.


Ramonda was T'Challa's stepmother.  The woman in Hudlin's series is T'Challa's birth mother.  I don't know if she's been named in the book, but her pre-Hudlin name was N'Yami.

Quote
And so you see Jer, T'Challa has every right to refer to himself as an Avenger since at the time of Everett's briefing to the U.S. cabinet types, it was clear that T'Challa had been king of Wakanda long enough to have lured the Fantastic Four into battle and become a member of the Avengers. Remember, when did T'Challa first meet Monica Lynne? It was when he was an active member of the Avengers was it not? Why sure it was.


No, I don't see it at all.  In issue #3 T'Challa appoints T'Shan to be U.N. ambassador just as he receives calls from Nelson Mandela and President Bush to congratulate him on his coronation.  Since T'Challa refers to Mandela as "Mr. President" and Mandela didn't become president of South Africa until 1994, it stands to reason that his coronation must be happening during George W. Bush's presidency, which places it no earlier than 2001.  Since the book was written in 2005, that puts an absolute cap of 4 years on T'Challa's time as king.

Now go back to issues #1 and #2, where U.S. officials are discussing Wakanda.  They're supposedly completely unaware of what the country is and who the Black Panther is, and the general is perturbed about them having the gall to declare a no-fly zone.  After Ross's spiel about Wakanda, Dondi Reese observes that Wakanda has "no ties to the United States".  A reference is made to the "axis of evil", a term coined during Bush's 2002 State Of The Union speech.  Since the Avengers have always had a working relationship with the U.S. government, it's not believable that high-ranking U.S. officials would be completely unaware of the Black Panther if he had ever served with the team.  So we now have reason to believe that T'Challa still hadn't been an Avenger as of 2002, leaving only a 3-year potential window for it to have happened.

But wait -- the cabinet scenes are the immediate prelude to Klaw's Wakandan invasion, so there's no time to fit it in beforehand.  That means that any Avenger stint would have to happen after #6.  But #7 is a "House Of M" crossover, which pins the story down to the present tense in the Marvel Universe -- so we have to use clues in later issues to determine the amount of time that's passed.  And #10 delivers in that regard in multiple ways, with Shuri still erupting spontaneously into tears over killing the Russian Radioactive Man, and the Cannibal having done nothing in the intervening time, and the book's own captions declaring that "apparently after taking the throne and killing the man who murdered his father, his next job was to find a wife and produce an heir or two".

There's no indication that any meaningful amount of time passes between #6 and #10 -- and that means that Hudlin's T'Challa would never have had a chance to be an Avenger.  Incidentally, this also means that any history with Monica Lynne would have to have happened before T'Challa became king, which is yet another internal inconsistency in Hudlin's work.

For a more complete exploration of this with citations, look here:  http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?rpl=060729232653

Quote
You said, "Apparently, after taking the throne and murdering the man who killed his father..."

In your eyes, what T'Challa did to Klaw constitutes murder.


No, that was a cut-and-paste of a botched quote from #10, not a pejorative statement on my part.  Thanks for assuming the worst of me, though.   ::)

Quote
As I explained in my previous post, T'Challa's reign of Wakanda begins much earlier than you seem to believe it did. People around the world know of T'Challa because as early as Issues #1 and #2, it was established that T'Chaka, the Black Panther had prior contact with Captain America and that T'Challa, the Black Panther had already encountered and had defeated the Fantastic Four. Everett K. Ross was about to talk about that incident as if it were ancient history.


And yet high-level diplomatic and military officials in the U.S. government are completely unaware of all of this, even though George W. apparently called T'Challa personally to congratulate him on his coronation.  And Hudlin's own timeline wouldn't actually allow for it.  Thanks for strengthening my point.

Quote
How did Priest get around having to give the mantle of the Black Panther to Killmonger and also make it possible for a bi-racial U.S. citizen to challenge for rulership of the nation of Wakanda?


Kasper never challenged for rule of Wakanda, because that wasn't possible before Hudlin -- they were separate titles.  He attempted to challenge for the role of Black Panther, and was turned down flat because he wasn't Wakandan and wasn't a member of the Panther Cult.  T'Challa humored him with staged ascension rites to test his mettle, because he saw some promise in the kid -- but it was Killmonger who made him an acolyte and gave him the synthesized version of the heart-shaped herb.  Killmonger was the rightful Black Panther at the time, after all.

Quote
man, that Christopher Priest and his "just making it white will make it alright" fixation...


That's just baseless and offensive.  Priest used people of all races in his Black Panther series, but the core players were almost all black.  Ross was balanced by QDJ.  Hunter represented the white imperialist mindset turned on its head and fueled by Wakandan patriotism.  Kasper's race was just another manifestation of the "two worlds" metaphor he represented in several aspects of his life -- black and white, America and Wakanda, cop and criminal, etc.

If you don't like Priest's work, fine -- but the racial slams are really out of line.

Quote
Unless I've read the information incorrectly, the reason given as to why Killmonger lapsed into the coma was that the herb is toxic to anyone outside of the royal lineage to which T'Chaka and T'Challa belong.


As I recall it, the suspicion was that it was toxic (though not necessarily fatal) to those who hadn't built up an immunity to it through genetics or other means, but it was Killmonger's altered DNA that caused the reaction that put him in a coma.  So someone outside the royal line could conceivably become the Black Panther, but it would be much more difficult for them to metabolize the herb at first.

Wow, I finally reached the end.  Sinjection, look -- I get it.  You're in love with Hudlin's Black Panther.  You may well be in love with Hudlin himself (not that there's anything wrong with that :)).  If you want to preach about your love for the book all day, that's your business.  But if we're going to have a meaningful discussion, it'd be nice if you could stick to the points at hand instead of quoting back a comment or two of mine and then just going off on an extended soliloquy about fanboys, perceived racism, and the supposed glory that is Hudlin's Panther.

But since you did go off on tangents several times, let me add one more thing: From my perspective, Hudlin writes almost all of his Wakandan characters as if they were Americans.  This may make them more relatable to Americans, especially African-Americans, but I think it does a disservice to the story, because people who grew up in an isolationist, xenophobic, technologically advanced African conclave would not act like Americans.  McGregor and Priest seemed to get this, but Hudlin doesn't.  And frankly, my annoyance with Hudlin's characterization of T'Challa seems right in line with your annoyance about Priest's use of Ross -- it's pandering to the audience instead of serving the story.

OK, that's enough of that.   :)

- Jer

Offline Reginald Hudlin

  • Landlord
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 9884
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #136 on: July 30, 2006, 03:42:35 pm »



 I've never seen a more racially charged comic board.

So you've never been to the CBR board?  The one where, in dismissing one fan's desire to see some form of "Black Avengers" suggested they be called GHETTO SUPERSTARS.

That was the most recent piece of blantant racism I've read, but I don't go to most boards that other posters on this site reference. 

Critics of the book would have a lot more credibility if they would acknowledge and denounce statements like that when they popped up on boards.  Their silence speaks volumes.

As for the idea that Black Panther doesn't speak or act "African", this comment is inane.  You mean like people in Libya act, or how people in Somalia speak, or how people in Nigeria behave?   Because it's a big place, Africa with a lot of different cultures.  Imagine if someone said a character didn't act "European", you'd wonder if they were talking about France or Germany or Sweden, because those are three of many different distinct cultures.  Same applies here.

I suspect the motivation for this comment is he doesn't speak in a stilted format.  And references pop culture from time to time.  When I was in Egypt, I had a conversation with a middle aged local woman about Coolio.  If that could happen ten years ago, I suspect Wakanda, one of the world's most technologically advanced countries, has a radio and is familiar with today's pop music.  This may rub some readers the wrong way because they don't like black pop culture. 

« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 04:10:31 pm by Reginald Hudlin »

Offline HappyPants Panther

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #137 on: July 30, 2006, 03:55:12 pm »
So you've never been to the CBR board?  The one where, in dismissing one fan's desire to see some form of "Black Avengers" suggested they be called GHETTO SUPERSTARS.

That was the most recent piece of blantant racism I've read, but I don't go to most boards that other posters on this site reference. 

Critics of the book would have a lot more credibility if they would acknowledge and denounce statements like that when they popped up on boards.  Their silence speaks volumes.

I have been to the CBR forum, but  I have never seen that. If you have a link, I'd like to see it. Not that I don't believe you, I'd just like  to [bsee[/b] the other poster's reaction to that type of thing.

I know when some on this board say equally (and in some cases more) biggoted things people are curiously silent aswell...when they aren't co-signing.

As for the idea of a Black Avengers, I don't like it; I don't think race should play a part in making a superhoero group. Its exclusionary, and unneccesarily so.
Marvel has yet to change their Black Panther Bio page to reflect Hudlin's history. Yes! There's still hope.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

  • Landlord
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 9884
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #138 on: July 30, 2006, 04:12:44 pm »
Go to the CBR forums and read the thread about BP #18 under the Civil War heading.

I see the idea of Black Avengers offends you more than the "Ghetto Superstars" quip.

Offline HappyPants Panther

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #139 on: July 30, 2006, 04:20:01 pm »
Go to the CBR forums and read the thread about BP #18 under the Civil War heading.

I see the idea of Black Avengers offends you more than the "Ghetto Superstars" quip.

I don't know what gives you that idea. I said a groups based on race are needlessly exclusionary. But I called the  "Ghetto Superstars" remark "biggoted". You're wrong, Mr. Hudlin.

I'm going to check CBR now though. And props on being so accessible.
Marvel has yet to change their Black Panther Bio page to reflect Hudlin's history. Yes! There's still hope.

Offline HappyPants Panther

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #140 on: July 30, 2006, 04:37:46 pm »
I checked CBR, and what Mr.Hudlin says is true. There is atleast one member as biggoted some of the posters here. And just as almost noone check that poster (I didn't read every thread following the post in question, but I believe one person addressed it indirectly), many biggoted posts in this forum go unchecked.

By and large, this is still the most racially charged comic forum I've seen, but I'll have to keep an eye on CBR (thats the first time I've seen such a post there).
Marvel has yet to change their Black Panther Bio page to reflect Hudlin's history. Yes! There's still hope.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

  • Landlord
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 9884
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #141 on: July 30, 2006, 05:05:30 pm »
In the context of Black Panther, what bigoted (drop that other "g" you keep adding) posts here do you see?

I need a sense of how your racial meter is callibarated.  Because if you can read that thread and only be offended once, and but you are offended here often....

Offline HappyPants Panther

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #142 on: July 30, 2006, 05:10:42 pm »
In the context of Black Panther, what bigoted (drop that other "g" you keep adding) posts here do you see?

I need a sense of how your racial meter is callibarated.  Because if you can read that thread and only be offended once, and but you are offended here often....

I didn't read every post in that thread. I searched for the post you brought up, found it, and skimmed every post that came after it looking for a reply to it.

As for the bigoted threads/posts here, many of them are gone now, but I'll do a quick scan and get right back to you, if you insist.
Marvel has yet to change their Black Panther Bio page to reflect Hudlin's history. Yes! There's still hope.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

  • Landlord
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 9884
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #143 on: July 30, 2006, 05:43:51 pm »
Right, this site is a "rebuild".  Well, if something strikes you as inappropiate, please speak up.

Offline Jer

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #144 on: July 30, 2006, 05:46:27 pm »
Critics of the book would have a lot more credibility if they would acknowledge and denounce statements like that when they popped up on boards.  Their silence speaks volumes.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've made a habit of calling out anyone on either side of the fence who makes comments in that vein.  Even when it's been you, making crass racial generalizations about the people who have problems with your work.  :)

Quote
As for the idea that Black Panther doesn't speak or act "African", this comment is inane.  You mean like people in Libya act, or how people in Somalia speak, or how people in Nigeria behave?   Because it's a big place, Africa with a lot of different cultures.

Thanks for not responding to what I wrote, but to some straw-man oversimplification instead.  I didn't say that Africans in general wouldn't behave that way -- I said that "people who grew up in an isolationist, xenophobic, technologically advanced African conclave would not act like Americans."  If you disagree with my actual statement, I'd like to hear why.

Quote
I suspect the motivation for this comment is he doesn't speak in a stilted format.

It doesn't have to be stilted, but it shouldn't feel American, either.  British and Aussie speech patterns are very different from American ones, so why should people from an isolationist, xenophobic culture have more in common with us linguistically than our cultural cousins?

And I wasn't speaking specifically about T'Challa -- I think Shuri is the worst offender, frankly.

Quote
This may rub some readers the wrong way because they don't like black pop culture. 

Or maybe for some it has nothing at all to do with race, and is just a perceived inconsistency in your characterization.  But I guess that wouldn't be as easy to mindlessly bash.   ::)

- Jer

Offline Reginald Hudlin

  • Landlord
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 9884
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #145 on: July 30, 2006, 05:50:51 pm »
Oh no, I"m mindfully bashing here.

Not liking black pop culture has nothing to do with race. There are quite a few black people who don't like hip hop in general, and even more who don't like the current direction of hip hop culture. 

As for Shuri, as I said, a young woman in the technologically advanced culture in the world has cable. 

Offline mr. irrelevant

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 74
  • Rebirth of the Irrelevant
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #146 on: July 30, 2006, 05:56:16 pm »
Haven't been on the board in a while...did I miss something? ???
what the hell are you doing reading this?

Offline Pantherfan

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 364
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #147 on: July 30, 2006, 06:11:44 pm »



 I've never seen a more racially charged comic board.

So you've never been to the CBR board?  The one where, in dismissing one fan's desire to see some form of "Black Avengers" suggested they be called GHETTO SUPERSTARS.

That was the most recent piece of blantant racism I've read, but I don't go to most boards that other posters on this site reference. 

Critics of the book would have a lot more credibility if they would acknowledge and denounce statements like that when they popped up on boards.  Their silence speaks volumes.

As for the idea that Black Panther doesn't speak or act "African", this comment is inane.  You mean like people in Libya act, or how people in Somalia speak, or how people in Nigeria behave?   Because it's a big place, Africa with a lot of different cultures.  Imagine if someone said a character didn't act "European", you'd wonder if they were talking about France or Germany or Sweden, because those are three of many different distinct cultures.  Same applies here.

I suspect the motivation for this comment is he doesn't speak in a stilted format.  And references pop culture from time to time.  When I was in Egypt, I had a conversation with a middle aged local woman about Coolio.  If that could happen ten years ago, I suspect Wakanda, one of the world's most technologically advanced countries, has a radio and is familiar with today's pop music.  This may rub some readers the wrong way because they don't like black pop culture. 



I hear what you're saying, Reggie. I think the whole crux of this arguement is that since Wakanda is a isolationalist country and xenophobic that they wouldn't be interested in American pop culture, let alone expose other Wakandans to it. This is just my guess as to why some readers feel the way they do.

I remember listening to Paul Mooney's comedy album and he said that Black Americans are instrumental in music, clothing, gesture and language. It's not far fetched for Africans or any other group wanting to emulate current trends in pop culture.

Offline Jer

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #148 on: July 30, 2006, 06:16:16 pm »
As for Shuri, as I said, a young woman in the technologically advanced culture in the world has cable. 


And I have a hard time believing that the Queen of Wakanda would stand for her daughter adopting American mannerisms and speech patterns.  I also have a hard time believing that someone living in a real-world utopia would have all that much interest in watching American cable, except for perverse amusement value.

Regarding the speech patterns, a couple of quotes from Priest might be illuminating:

"Panther himself is not African American. He's African. And he is as true to being an African as I can manage: he is, in fact, an amalgam of two very good Nigerian friends of mine-- neither of whom listen to DMX or talk in street slang."  http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?rpl=020116094245

"When I write him, I imagine a lyrical, almost singing voice, based on my dear friend Elder Afonja, a Nigerian Harvard PhD. I've planned, on and off, to have Elder Afonja read some of the Panther's dialog and post Real8 clips of it.  I was bewildered by early criticism of Panther's 'Clint Eastwood' voice. He does not have a Clint voice. When Panther says, 'Make my day,' he is being entirely sincere. He has a lyrical, smooth voice, similar to Geoffery Holder (the Cola Nut man from those Seven Up commercials of the 70's).  A very thick accent, yes. He speaks English fluently, as do most all Wakandans, but it is not his primary language."  http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?rpl=010503163242

Your take is obviously different, but there are plenty of good reasons why the adoption of American speech patterns by Wakandans would cause some head scratching for the reader.

- Jer

Offline kitamu Re

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 408
    • View Profile
Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« Reply #149 on: July 30, 2006, 06:17:55 pm »
yeah missed the fact that jer, happypants, or whatever his name is DOESN't buy the books but wants to complain about them. So Reggie is putting him in his place ;D He is basically TROLLING